kirorx Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Most stupid dead was Padme's....WTH??? the lady was weak for a natural childbirth and in the fricking future they don't have anesthesics or know Caesarean section? Also Obi and Yoda are surprised when the robot tells them "she is carrying twins"...WTH they also don't have echographies? I just block out this whole scene from my memories, that part and the whole anakin is space jesus thing. Those two things I just turn the old blind eye to. It is so lame. You have war going, so there is an endless amount ways in which Padme could have died, but instead she "lost the will to live".....really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I just block out this whole scene from my memories, that part and the whole anakin is space jesus thing. Those two things I just turn the old blind eye to. It is so lame. You have war going, so there is an endless amount ways in which Padme could have died, but instead she "lost the will to live".....really? After just giving birth to two babies who depended on her. She couldn't live for them. Yes, another George Lucas Plothole (as evidenced by Leia "remembering" her real mother in RotJ) and that one was a doozy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 After just giving birth to two babies who depended on her. She couldn't live for them. Yes, another George Lucas Plothole (as evidenced by Leia "remembering" her real mother in RotJ) and that one was a doozy. I believe Padme lost the will to live before she gave birth, but I do believe she needed some other medical condition to go along with that. Then again, some women just can't handle giving birth, there are some cases where the mother dies shortly after giving birth. As for Leia remembering her mother. I believe that she was remembering her mother on Alderaan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she die before Alderaan's destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I believe Padme lost the will to live before she gave birth, but I do believe she needed some other medical condition to go along with that. Then again, some women just can't handle giving birth, there are some cases where the mother dies shortly after giving birth. As for Leia remembering her mother. I believe that she was remembering her mother on Alderaan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she die before Alderaan's destruction? No evidence to that, actually. As far as anyone knows, Mrs. Organa died with Alderaan. I thought the same thing for a while, but no records exist of her dying before that. Just another Lucas plothole. He tends to leave a lot of them laying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) I believe Padme lost the will to live before she gave birth, but I do believe she needed some other medical condition to go along with that. Then again, some women just can't handle giving birth, there are some cases where the mother dies shortly after giving birth. As for Leia remembering her mother. I believe that she was remembering her mother on Alderaan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she die before Alderaan's destruction? problem is Padme has been shown to be such a strong willed woman and very independent that it makes no sense what so ever at the end of ROTS she is gushing over Anakin. She was a queen as a teen, a senator in the Galactic Senate, actually fought in combat during the clone wars and now we are supposed to be she is weak???? But the whole Leia remembering her mother completely changes with Padme dying. Before it was a way for Luke to connect to his mother since he knows Leia is his sister and she grew up with her. However now because of the prequels that entire scene loses all meaning. edit: Hell in AOTC they make the point of Obi Wan asking Anakin what Padme would do in his situation which is to leave Anakin behind and complete the mission. But we are supposed to believe that now for some reason she can't live with out him? Edited July 4, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 No evidence to that, actually. As far as anyone knows, Mrs. Organa died with Alderaan. I thought the same thing for a while, but no records exist of her dying before that. Just another Lucas plothole. He tends to leave a lot of them laying around. I agree. Sometimes we have to fill in the plot holes with our own ideas of what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepiolida Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Darth Vader had to make a choice and the fastest thing he could think of was to grab Palps and toss him down that shaft. Not only did he stop Palpatine, but he also sacrificed himself for his son. And in doing so he was turned from the Dark Side, bringing balance to the Force. Actually, Vader brought balance to the force when the Jedi were wiped out. Then he unbalanced it when he forsook the dark side. Luke was a catalyst, but didn't do any of the heavy lifting. At the time of ROTS, the Jedi basically rule, and the force is slanted heavily toward the light. The sith are whittling away at the Jedi advantage, but until the scourging of the temple, the force is very much unbalanced to the light. The two remaining sith destroy the jedi, leaving Yoda and Obi-wan. The force is in balance, light and dark being roughly equal. This persists until ANH when Luke comes of age and starts exercising his force sensitivity. Obi-wan and Yoda die, leaving the force slightly slanted sithy. In ROTJ, Darth Vader changes sides and tips the balance jedi-y by killing the emperor. Then all that's left is a Jedi and his force sensitive sister. The force is out of balance in favour of light side. It is Vader that fulfills the prophecy to bring balance to the force, and it's Vader that messes it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaceTowani Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Actually, Vader brought balance to the force when the Jedi were wiped out. Then he unbalanced it when he forsook the dark side. Luke was a catalyst, but didn't do any of the heavy lifting. At the time of ROTS, the Jedi basically rule, and the force is slanted heavily toward the light. The sith are whittling away at the Jedi advantage, but until the scourging of the temple, the force is very much unbalanced to the light. The two remaining sith destroy the jedi, leaving Yoda and Obi-wan. The force is in balance, light and dark being roughly equal. This persists until ANH when Luke comes of age and starts exercising his force sensitivity. Obi-wan and Yoda die, leaving the force slightly slanted sithy. In ROTJ, Darth Vader changes sides and tips the balance jedi-y by killing the emperor. Then all that's left is a Jedi and his force sensitive sister. The force is out of balance in favour of light side. It is Vader that fulfills the prophecy to bring balance to the force, and it's Vader that messes it up again. Not this "there needs to be 2 Jedi/2 Sith" logic. Look, the darkside is an IMBALANCE. There is the FORCE, then there is the DARKSIDE. The "lightside" is the FORCE, and the Sith is the "DARKSIDE." Sidious's presence alone was enough to almost permanently leave the force OUT of balance because of the darkness he created. With his death, and Vader's redemption, the Force was back IN BALANCE again. Remember, The Jedi=The Force, The Sith=Darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepiolida Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Not this "there needs to be 2 Jedi/2 Sith" logic. Look, the darkside is an IMBALANCE. There is the FORCE, then there is the DARKSIDE. The "lightside" is the FORCE, and the Sith is the "DARKSIDE." Sidious's presence alone was enough to almost permanently leave the force OUT of balance because of the darkness he created. With his death, and Vader's redemption, the Force was back IN BALANCE again. Remember, The Jedi=The Force, The Sith=Darkness. I disagree. They are crystal clear that the SIth use the force, not "the darkside"... it's "dark side of the force" If there were no Jedi/Sith, the force would be in perfect balance. The very existence of ANY Jedi or Sith starts tipping the balance. They are fundamentalists (the Voss, in SWTOR seem to be neutral in this way, so I'll assume they do not tip the balance by and large). For there to be balance, both light and dark need to be pushed/promoted/supported/whatever in pretty much equal measure. It's not that there needs to be 2 and 2 so much as there needs to be roughly equal power/numbers on both sides, be it 1/1 or 1 super uber guy and 1000 not-so-uber-guys. So if we give the uber emperor a rating of, say, -7 because he's super powerful. And Vader a -5 because he's pretty powerful. Yoda would be about a +5, and obi-wan a +4. Luke seems to be roughly as powerful as Vader, so +5 for him... he's clearly less powerful than the Emperor at any point, but powerfule enough that the emperor seems to be aware that Luke and Vader could gang up on him. At the start of Episode III, there are what, 1000 jedi, including Windu and the Jedi council. The light side of the force is runing about +1100, to the dark side's -7 for the emperor and a few flunkies. By the end of Episode III, the force is roughly in balance with the dark side about -12, and the light side about +9. it's certainly way, way more in balance than it was when the Jedi ruled. Luke shows up, and yeah when he appears in Episodes IV and V he probably does bring the force into balance for a while... O-W dies but Luke gains some power, so it's running about -12 dark and +7 light, but Luke trains and he's pretty good, so at the start of Episode VI, it's probably -12 dark and +10 light. Luke's efforts tip it back in favour of the light side... Yoda cashes in (-12 dark, +5 light). He messes up vader, who turns (-7 Dark, +10 Light). Then the emperor and vader die (0 dark, +5 light). At the end of episode VI, the light side is being promoted and the dark side is largely extinguished. That is out of balance by definition. Don't confuse "galaxy ruled by a scumbag" with "force imbalance". I've never got the impression that the force has any particular interest in who wields it or why. The force just is. The wielders are what makes or breaks balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Not this "there needs to be 2 Jedi/2 Sith" logic. Look, the darkside is an IMBALANCE. There is the FORCE, then there is the DARKSIDE. The "lightside" is the FORCE, and the Sith is the "DARKSIDE." Sidious's presence alone was enough to almost permanently leave the force OUT of balance because of the darkness he created. With his death, and Vader's redemption, the Force was back IN BALANCE again. Remember, The Jedi=The Force, The Sith=Darkness. I have to agree more this then Sep's view. The Force has nothing to do with the jedi or sith, but the jedi use the force and bend to the will of the force itself with out altering it. The Sith use the force as a weapon and manipulate the force in an unnatural way. This is what makes them different, one exists with the force the other trys to control it. So the force is in a natural state of balance on its own, its out of balance when someone trys to bend the force to their command. Edited July 4, 2012 by kirorx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanikk Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have to agree more this then Sep's view. The Force has nothing to do with the jedi or sith, but the jedi use the force and bend to the will of the force itself with out altering it. The Sith use the force as a weapon and manipulate the force in an unnatural way. This is what makes them different, one exists with the force the other trys to control it. So the force is in a natural state of balance on its own, its out of balance when someone trys to bend the force to their command. Jedi use the force as a weapon as well. Force push, using the force to throw objects at people, and force lightning used by light sided jedi. These are all examples of the jedi using the force for purely offensive measures. Also is manipulating the force to heal people not bending it to their will? The jedi have healed people through the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I agree. Sometimes we have to fill in the plot holes with our own ideas of what happened. see that's dangerous. Because now you are going with the idea that everything that happened in the movies is real and it must be logical. You are just coming up with excuses for bad writing. It's this kind of thinking of why the SW universe is so messed up because people try to make excuses and come up with solutions to things that are just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piratekinq Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Thinking back on the Star Wars films, there were some deaths that could have easily been avoided. I'll assume you all have seen the films and not use spoiler tags. If you haven't seen them...what are you waiting for? Go. Now. Still here? Good. Darth Vader At the end of ROTJ, when Luke defeats Vader, he throws his lightsaber on the ground. Palpatine shocks Luke and Vader limps to Palpatine. Vader makes his decision and sacrifices himself by throwing Palpatine into the chasm. Why didn't Vader just grab Luke's lightsaber and stab Palpatine? That would have been much simpler and he'd be able to spend time with his kids and atone for his mistakes. Please don't say he didn't have enough time or Palpatine would have sensed it or something. Vader could have used Force Pull to get the lightsaber and stabbed Palpatine, which would take about 2 seconds total. Lifting Palpatine and throwing him took like 10 seconds. Palpatine would have sensed it? Maybe. But why didn't Palpatine sense...or see...or hear...Vader lunging for Palpatine to pick him up? "Oh Luke would have died if he was shocked any longer!" No. He wouldn't have. Palpatine endured like a minute of his own lightning, which was stronger than the lightning in ROTJ. Plus, Luke is in much better shape than Palpatine was. I think he could have endured a little longer. Qui-Gon Jinn I know. I know. The prequels had a lot of logic gaps and plot holes. But this one stands out. Why would they send just two Jedi to protect a very important queen of a very important planet? A better question. Why would they send a morally grey Jedi (Grey...get it...Liam Neeson...) and his padawan...not even a full Jedi...to protect the queen? As shown in AotC and ROTS, there are thousands of Jedi. I'm pretty sure on a high priority mission like this, they would have sent a Council member...or at least more than two Jedi. Even three or four would have made a difference. Imagine the fight against Darth Maul...but with 4 Jedi? Imagine what difference that would have made. Another scenario. Obi-Wan has been depicted as using Force Speed, even in his padawan days. Why not use Force Speed to catch up with Qui-Gon and defeat Darth Maul? "Well Force Speed hadn't been invented by George Lucas yet..." Okay. Fine. I'll give you that one. But does Obi-Wan forget that he has a very powerful weapon in his hand? Earlier in the movie, Qui-Gon used a lightsaber to nearly cut through a blast door designed to withstand huge explosions. Why didn't Obi-Wan just...slice the barrier generators? In the five minutes that Darth Maul was seething and Qui-Gon was using introspection, Obi-Wan could have been destroying the shield generators to catch up with his master. Thoughts? Other examples? Scenario 1: Vader loses his dueling arm and he was in the heat of the moment. Scenario 2: The republic was in a recession and the jedi order was dealing with budget cuts Scenario 3: Force speed has been used in movies. The reason is that his mana was depleted. Obi-wan didn't have the time to use introspection like Qui-gon did. He didn't slice the generators because he knew it would be coming out of his paycheck. Duh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 see that's dangerous. Because now you are going with the idea that everything that happened in the movies is real and it must be logical. You are just coming up with excuses for bad writing. It's this kind of thinking of why the SW universe is so messed up because people try to make excuses and come up with solutions to things that are just wrong. Padme's death is the only plothole I fill. I think she had some sort of brain injury caused by the Force choke coupled with her losing the man she loves and "losing the will to live" made the birthing process too difficult and she died. Force choke can be lethal if applied correctly. Her brain might not have been able to handle the deprivation of oxygen caused by the choking. These types of deaths happen, maybe not in the same circumstances but they do happen. It seems, to me, to be one of the most logical explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) see that's dangerous. Because now you are going with the idea that everything that happened in the movies is real and it must be logical. You are just coming up with excuses for bad writing. It's this kind of thinking of why the SW universe is so messed up because people try to make excuses and come up with solutions to things that are just wrong. Why does it have to be excuses? Why can't people have their own views on what/how something did/didn't happen? You ever think that, directors leave some stuff out for the audience to come to their own conclusions as to what happens? Why do directors/story writers need to do all the work or have all the fun in telling a story? I look at it like this, if you can explain what happens in some parts of a movie then its not a plothole because you are able to figure out what was missing and how the story was told its a plothole if you can't figure something out through reasoning. Edited July 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Actually, Vader brought balance to the force when the Jedi were wiped out. Then he unbalanced it when he forsook the dark side. Luke was a catalyst, but didn't do any of the heavy lifting. At the time of ROTS, the Jedi basically rule, and the force is slanted heavily toward the light. The sith are whittling away at the Jedi advantage, but until the scourging of the temple, the force is very much unbalanced to the light. The two remaining sith destroy the jedi, leaving Yoda and Obi-wan. The force is in balance, light and dark being roughly equal. This persists until ANH when Luke comes of age and starts exercising his force sensitivity. Obi-wan and Yoda die, leaving the force slightly slanted sithy. In ROTJ, Darth Vader changes sides and tips the balance jedi-y by killing the emperor. Then all that's left is a Jedi and his force sensitive sister. The force is out of balance in favour of light side. It is Vader that fulfills the prophecy to bring balance to the force, and it's Vader that messes it up again. The Force is Light Side. The Dark is a corrupted and perverted version of the Force. The Force itself is peace which is Light. The act of balancing the Force comes from destroying the Dark Side. Palpatine's mere presence brought the Force out of balance just because he is basically a nexus of the Dark Side. When the Sith were wiped out by Vader's final act, The Force was brought into balance. There are plenty of people who will agree with me. The Dark Side is not apart of the Force. Thus there is no need for Sith to exist for their to be balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 see that's dangerous. Because now you are going with the idea that everything that happened in the movies is real and it must be logical. You are just coming up with excuses for bad writing. It's this kind of thinking of why the SW universe is so messed up because people try to make excuses and come up with solutions to things that are just wrong. Nobody is excusing George's bad writing, bro. You may want to look at it again before you jump to conclusions. I find the fact that other authors have to come to George's rescue on plotholes funny, in fact. Brian Daley did an excellent job filling in the parsec plothole from ANH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepiolida Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The Force is Light Side. The Dark is a corrupted and perverted version of the Force. The Force itself is peace which is Light. The movies make it abundantly clear that is not the case. The Force is both light and dark. That is stated explicitly numerous times. People use it for good or evil by choice. Therefore it would only be in balance when good and evil are roughly equal. You're filling a plot hole with your own creation when you state that The Force is Light Side. But even if you run with your position, balance requires that something not be lopsided. If the Force is light side, then it is naturally out of balance by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 omg these sith fanboys with their "2 siths & 2 jedis = balance" even when GL said and make clear that the dark side is a corruption and balance is achieved when the dark side is gone (you know....GL.....tiny guy, big beard, lives in a ranch in California....) Who the hell started that idea anyways? can I practice with him my womp rats bullseye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) omg these sith fanboys with their "2 siths & 2 jedis = balance" even when GL said and make clear that the dark side is a corruption and balance is achieved when the dark side is gone (you know....GL.....tiny guy, big beard, lives in a ranch in California....) Who the hell started that idea anyways? can I practice with him my womp rats bullseye? Some people who took the propchey too literally by the word balance. Fun fact, Skywalker ranch is almost 5,000 acres(its 4,700 total). Only 15 acres have been used though! I would use a little more of the land, and build me a replica AT-AT to scare people. Lol Edited July 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopdogbaby Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) If Luke wasn't a righteous idiot, HE could have avoided Vader's death. All he had to do was NOT throw his lightsaber away. If he's staring death in the face, he should be holding a lightsaber ready to protect himself, not putting on a "I am a good guy" show. If he kept his weapon he could have blocked Palpatine's lightning and killed him with no effort at all. Also, force speed was too invented before the end of that movie. They used it on the droid ship in the start of the movie. Edited July 5, 2012 by snoopdogbaby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The movies make it abundantly clear that is not the case. The Force is both light and dark. That is stated explicitly numerous times. People use it for good or evil by choice. Therefore it would only be in balance when good and evil are roughly equal. You're filling a plot hole with your own creation when you state that The Force is Light Side. But even if you run with your position, balance requires that something not be lopsided. If the Force is light side, then it is naturally out of balance by definition. GL stated that the Force is only Light Side and the Dark Side is a corrupted version. Completely separate from the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscad Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) If he kept his weapon he could have blocked Palpatine's lightning and killed him with no effort at all. Palpatine would have used lightning to blast that saber out of Luke's hand, he nearly blasted Mace's lightsaber out of his hand and he was a Jedi Master who specialized in Saber Combat. Even if that wasn't the case, Palpatine would have wtfbbqpwned Luke, although Luke was powerful he hadn't surpassed Palpatine yet. To be honest I don't even know if he had surpassed Vader in ROTJ as Vader's feelings for his son might have affected the outcome of their duel. Edited July 6, 2012 by Tuscad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Palpatine would have used lightning to blast that saber out of Luke's hand, he nearly blasted Mace's lightsaber out of his hand and he was a Jedi Master who specialized in Saber Combat. Even if that wasn't the case, Palpatine would have wtfbbqpwned Luke, although Luke was powerful he hadn't surpassed Palpatine yet. To be honest I don't even know if he had surpassed Vader in ROTJ as Vader's feelings for his son might have affected the outcome of their duel. He wasn't later he stated that if Vader went all out, he would have been dead. Don't like it cause it seems to undermine, all the training he did. But it is, what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscad Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) He wasn't later he stated that if Vader went all out, he would have been dead. Don't like it cause it seems to undermine, all the training he did. But it is, what it is. I figured as much when I thought about all of the Jedi that Vader has killed but I wasn't sure because Luke is the strongest force user of all time. Edit: Well not in ROTJ but later on. Edited July 6, 2012 by Tuscad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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