What is ruining PvP?

[Baron_Samedi]

Well, after achieving valor 85 and full WH gear (augmented, of course), and after 600 won matches, I suspended my account yesterday.

Now - I don't want the "good bye", "don't let the door smack you in your arse on the way out" etc. because this is not qq thread. This is just a sober snapshot of what I think is going on in PVP.

 

1) The first and foremost issue that generates problems in PVP are I.O.T.F., or, Idiots On The Field. It seems that people perceive their character to be inferior when they play in team of mentally insufficient people (which is true - even the best of the best is not Jedi Rambo and cannot defeat full 8 team).

 

And let's give some examples of these people (all personally seen):

- 4 characters (2 sages, 1 shadow and 1 commando) in OUR pit on Huttball are TRYING for full minute to kill ONE enemy Marauder. All kudos to that marauder (forgot the name) for extremely successful kiting case.

- full team attacking middle in Alderaan, but one by one, while 5 players are waiting for them (even jumping from joy)

- total silence in the beginning of Alderaan, without a word of tactics. Full team is present. Team leader looks through the window, probably contemplating meaning of life, even when you ask him directly to tell tactics. Result - everybody dissipates, opponents answer with order to dissipation and we loose.

Or even better, when he answers with "Kill, kill, kill". In who knows how many matches, I remember only TWICE we won with "kill, kill, kill" tactics.

- People standing in the previous room of Voidstar while opponent not only capped the door, but advanced to the other room and is STARTING TO CAP THAT DOOR TOO.

- Mass usage of CC in the middle of Huttball that results in overflow of resolute bar of ball carrier, usually a Assasin. Of course, his intelligent brother ignored the middle and made his way up to our ledge. Force Pull to that Ball carrying Assasin and only one who can reach him then are Guardians and (some) Sentinels. Which is easily dealt with that jump thingy. Removal of Zephyr guarantees that you need 1/3 more time for your Leap to cool - and Speed deal with LoS.

- Usage of CC on Ball Carrier while HE IS NOT on frying pan (very popular). That effectively fills his Resolve bar, so when he is on the last frying pan, you cannot push him, pull him, throw him, stop him or whatever.

- Good old standing on the ledge of our finish line in Huttball, while Juggernaut has the ball and is in our pit (always popular). Of course, very few people are intelligent enough to stand on the VERY edge, so when Jug leaps, he falls down - effectively using Leap for next 15 seconds and preventing him from escaping. But - as I said, only few people knows where to stand when Jug is in sight.

etc.

 

2) Second and next-to-equal reason would be people trying to be something they aren't. I am always amazed how healers love to be DPS, how sentinels keep the ball very looooooong, thinking probably that they pack the armor that a fleet of Fairchild Republic Tuderbolts cannot penetrate. Logically, they are ccd, then ravaged, then ccd again, then beat the crap of them, then ccd, then ravaged by dps and in next 6 seconds - dead. "Wooow, how's that?! Me?! No way, Revan was a ***** compared to me, how can I die?!"

But that is nothing compared to healer DPS who stand in the middle of the Alderaan field and start Telekinetic throw on Jug or Mara. Just beautiful sight when they turn to him, realizing that they were going after some lousy DPS, while their natural prey, healer, is around, being particularly dumb.

Oh, and best then is sentence in chat: "Why are you people not keeping me?! Im a healer!" Usually from these guys I don't have green letters of heal.

 

So when healers DPS, when tanks try to DPS alone in the field, when DPS are out in the open, being "Me-Jedi-Rambo" what chances do you have to win the WZ?

 

3) I will say something very controversial - I don't think now any class needs nerfing/buffing. I am a bit pissed up because Guardian, that I am playing, had Zephyr replaced with that idiotic slash - but that's my problem. I feel now more like foot soldier sometimes, running around with lightened toothpick, but I know that if the would give back Zephyr, they would have to give back many things to various classes. And that would trigger even more dis-balance than now.

The only thing that I don't like is - they made Masterstrike uninterruptable. But, it is interruptable all right! Try this:

- Run when it starts (nobody from devs got the idea to SNARE the victim of Masterstrike when it starts?)

- Use any of your ccs, like Choke, that assasin/sorc jump to repel, any and all kinds of blind - it stops MS instantly

- Break LoS by passing through me, I need full circle to get you in my sight and you have good chances that Masterstrike will stop when target is not in sight - i.e. I will not be quick enough to turn 180

- If you are on comm, your buddy can pull me or something - again, MS is totally ruined.

But that doesn't cancel it - no, it still has to be cooled after miss-usage.

 

But still, all classes have their advantages and disadvantages. Also, its just like this - some classes are better in PVE and some are in PVP. Sentinels when they face Lost Island come out beaten and have their energy always about 10%. Commando is in better position.

In pvp, Sents can approach and ravage ranged in 2 seconds. Guardians also. My favorite targets now are Operatives (must stand in place, so I can use MAsterstrike, Sunderstrike, Zelous Leap etc), Bounty Hunters (love when they try Death from Above and I leap them to the ground), and, of course, Sorcs. Love these boys with rags on them - make my sword pass through them like hot knife through butter (all pun intended).

 

But - let's face it! This is absolutely negated with thinking, intelligent player who knows his character. I usually never had problems with Vanguard - usually would win them 1v1, but yesterday, one killed me again and again and again. Breaking LoS, puzzling me, repelling, using environment, while all that time utilizing DoTs and frontal weapons when we were on melee. Great player.

 

So what's ruining PVP are people who don't know their advantages as a class and disadvantages of other class. I admit - I was one of them. But you can do two things - quit or INVEST TIME. Oh, yes. It will take you bout 6 months of EVERYDAY PLAYING FOR AT LEAST 3-4 HOURS to be elite. Not to mention learning to keybind or getting Naga.

But you cannot, obviously, tell that to people. You cannot tell them that healer is not ment to be in front rows, toe to toe with sents. He is in back, healing, while tank is close to him with Guard, Calling Call, Taunt, Soresu, Saber Ward and Awe.

 

So they come to cry here. So Customer Support that monitors this writes report where it probably states "People are very unsatisfied with this and this, threatening to quit". Then devs probably got scrubbed by Big Kahuna Dev. Who gets scrubbed from Management Board. And chain of arsef+++ing is activated so devs set in motion changes. Which trigger problems in other areas.

(I know how this works - work in corporation, just copied the system)

 

And precious time and effort is lost while it could be used to boost up launching of new content.

 

And for G-d's sake, I've never seen a game where there are ENDLESS opportunities to add new content - this is SPACE. GALAXY. MILLIONS OF BILLIONS OF STARS!

Manaan comes to mind. Kashyyyk. Dantooine. Rakata Prime. People loved Taris because of references to Kotor. That is excellent riding horse that should be put to use - but for some reason, it is not.

 

4) So my last reason of leaving is - lack of content.

In PVP, most people come there to kill, not to make objectives. Devs made marketing mistake - they didn't proclaim, widely, that Illum is PVP zone - go and kill. People figured that out only when they made dailies. And they SHOULD have announced - "Ok, this is planet for kill. That's it. Who wants to kill and be killed, go there. This is ARENA planet".

What about bountys? Who kills 1.200 imps this month gets Rakata Lightsaber for ops? Or that gear after Black Hole?

 

My guild is slowly dying (so I cannot que to Ranked), PVP is saturated with... interesting... people and - well - personally, that removal of adrenals significantly nerfed DPS offs (the classes that meant to be, say, tanks, play DPS, and adrenals were helping them being better dps). And I have full WH gear, so there is no more goal to achieve. Valor 100 doesn't give anything more than Valor 85.

 

But, don't get me wrong - I am satisfied. Will probably be back when new content will be introduced. This was just a writing of all my thoughts about this issue. Weather somebody will like it or not - dunno. Hope only will get some ideas or thoughts of their own from this.

[BambulaGTS]

The only bad thing ATM is when someone get disconnect in ranked match and then have to wait 600-900 man server queue, and if he have not queue he could not connect to the match anyways.

[Dmasterr]

The only bad thing ATM is when someone get disconnect in ranked match and then have to wait 600-900 man server queue, and if he have not queue he could not connect to the match anyways.

 

This.

 

But disconnects and game bugs aside (respawn dead , lol)... the biggest detriment to pvp in this game is...

bad players<-> whining on forums.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Rassuro]

- total silence in the beginning of Alderaan, without a word of tactics. Full team is present. Team leader looks through the window, probably contemplating meaning of life, even when you ask him directly to tell tactics. Result - everybody dissipates, opponents answer with order to dissipation and we loose.

Or even better, when he answers with "Kill, kill, kill". In who knows how many matches, I remember only TWICE we won with "kill, kill, kill" tactics.

Team leader? Do you mean the person who is randomly selected as ops leader?

 

There are actually people who think that this random person should be the one with the responsibility to lead the team in PVP?

 

Oh, and best then is sentence in chat: "Why are you people not keeping me?! Im a healer!" Usually from these guys I don't have green letters of heal.

Did you stop for just one second to think about why the healers are asking for help? Did you think that just maybe it's because the enemy team has them marked and are focusing the healers down as soon as they get near the objectives? If there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that you will not get any heals if the healers spend most of the time respawning, and the rest of the time trying to keep themselves alive...

[BurnsTwoThree]

Nothing else really bothers me

• Farming WH takes too long for people who are returning to the game for RWZs
  
• Sorcerer Healers have no defensive CDs
  
• Healers are underpowered in general
  
• Marauders/Pyrotechs have overtuned
  
• Whining baddies on the forums decided how class balance would be in 1.2 and beyond
  
• BW doesn't make class/spec changes and balances as they should
  
• The Preseason #1 of WZ should be a quick way to get geared up while they fix everything for the first actual Season
  
• Forum presence doesn't go beyond Moderators giving out warnings for saying words such as "dumb and idiot".
  
• No updates on the current situation of PvP or how they plan to move forward with each class
  
• Lack of specific Queue WZ makes gearing up even more painful. Needs more Huttball.
  

[Baron_Samedi]

Team leader? Do you mean the person who is randomly selected as ops leader?

 

There are actually people who think that this random person should be the one with the responsibility to lead the team in PVP?

 

Yes, that's why they are appointed.

Btw, it is not entirely random. Bigger valor makes bigger chance to be Team leader.

 

You are one of that "Jedi Rambos" who runs around, ruins all WZ and is very offended when is called upon?

 

Did you stop for just one second to think about why the healers are asking for help? Did you think that just maybe it's because the enemy team has them marked and are focusing the healers down as soon as they get near the objectives? If there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that you will not get any heals if the healers spend most of the time respawning, and the rest of the time trying to keep themselves alive...

 

I ALWAYS protect the healer. As you have seen, I even counted here the damage reductions.

When a healer is healer - and not DPS - I don't move from him. Cause I survive because of him.

 

And I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS give MVP to healers, cause in 99% they do not top the group, but are vital for our victory. Even when I could give mvp to my guildies, I give to healer.

 

I was reffering here to healers who pretend to be dps.

[Dmasterr]

Nothing else really bothers me

• Farming WH takes too long for people who are returning to the game for RWZs
  No. L2 do rwz to gear up. Even rwz losses >normal wz wins.
  
• Sorcerer Healers have no defensive CDs
  uhm, ... we have amazing utility. Not all classes are designed to FACETANK ppl.
  
• Healers are underpowered in general
  LoL no, healers are the most powerfull team members on the battlefield.
  
• Marauders/Pyrotechs have overtuned
  A little, but it is not game breaking.
  
• Whining baddies on the forums decided how class balance would be in 1.2 and beyond
  I don't think so. Class balance now, and the flow of battle is much better than pre 1.2.
  
• BW doesn't make class/spec changes and balances as they should
  According to who? the forum baddies whining on the forum, that you previously mentioned? ha!.
   
  Could they do a better job? yes. But they do a decent one atm, better than BLIZZARD!
  
• The Preseason #1 of WZ should be a quick way to get geared up while they fix everything for the first actual Season
  And who says it isn't?
  
• Forum presence doesn't go beyond Moderators giving out warnings for saying words such as "dumb and idiot".
  Ppl cba fighting the windmills.
  
• No updates on the current situation of PvP or how they plan to move forward with each class
  As i said, pvp now it is best it has ever been so far. (relative to max geared competent players in rwz)
  
• Lack of specific Queue WZ makes gearing up even more painful. Needs more Huttball.
  You probably will be able to chose normal wz when x-servers get here, but do not hold your breath for the ability to chose RANKED wz queue.
  

 

Reply in yellow.

[CarlTheVanguard]

I told myself I'm not allowed to pvp in anything other than a pre-made.

Last time I solo-qued I punched my monitor in.

[Elkirin]

Many things can be annoying in PvP, most of us will get cranky now and then.

 

I would suggest that it is bad form to call people idiots or mentally inferior when posting from an anon forums avatar.

 

My father would have called it ( better edit this out as I doubt you can take it) , he had a way with words.

 

 

Good luck, I hope you enjoy your life.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Elkirin

[TheGreatFrosty]

The bad thing is too many objective based maps that aren't so much about combat, but rather about having one remaining guy stealthed to interrupt a cap.

 

Would love to see more king of the hill / dominance type of maps, where it's about how you PVP and not how you stealth.

[skidrows]

What anoys me and make me stop is stun, trap, stun, stun, stun, trap, stun stun stun, stun, force stealth, stun, trap.

[Sathid]

One word Pyrotechs,too much damage.

[BurnsTwoThree]

1. Doing Ranked WZ with such incredible class imbalances isn't worth my time. Sorcerer healers get nuked so quickly that it's not even worth the time. Before I quit I was easily a top tier Sorcerer, healing is my thing in WoW more in the way of Heroic Raiding but I'm still a very good PvP healer. My issue is that since the unwarranted nerfs to Sorcerer/Sages we've become a class that only comes into scrums and instead of being able to compete or getting the chance to we die in a single stun.

 

Any decent Sorcerer/Sage see's these issues. There's not a person I cannot match on my Sorc, but to gear up another character so I can be viable for high-end is taking too long and not worth my time. We're like Disc priests with smaller heals and no defensive CDs

 

2. Having a pull is hardly "amazing utility". Name one defensive CD that we have. Point and case.

 

3. Operatives/Smugglers are the only ones that don't get blown up in 5 seconds. We cannot be used to lure people away from Objectives because people are not that foolish anymore. If a lone healer goes out to an objective either A. Bad team or B. There's a stealth waiting for the CC to happen. To say that Sorcerers aren't vastly underpowered is a joke. I've never played a game where a healer can be blown up so quickly. Merc/Commandos must not be anything special as I haven't see a good team rolling with one yet.

 

4. A little overpowered? Try again. They're hitting people for 30% in one GCD (5-6k+) with 1300+ expertise.

Sorcerer heals can barely crit for 5k. I'm glad Sorcerers have HoT that ticks for 200, it does a lot for us.

 

5. There is no class balance now, don't kid yourself. It's groups with Operatives/Smugglers, Multiple (2-3) Marauders and Pyrotechs, tanks and MAYBE one Smugglers/OP dps there just because they can still solo healers while the Marauders/Sents murder the rest of the team. Anything else can be shut down too easily by those main DPS classes.

 

6. Bioware has done a good job in a few places. PvP was one of them pre-1.2. Questing was the other.

Anything PvP wise has gone downhill.

 

7. I didn't expect to do RWZ for Huttball only, that would be dumb. But if I am going to gear our another character I don't want to do WZs with pugs who don't know how to shift nodes. I don't mind losing in regulars if I am gearing up. Might as well win and lose on something I enjoy the most.

 

 

The bad thing is too many objective based maps that aren't so much about combat, but rather about having one remaining guy stealthed to interrupt a cap.

 

Would love to see more king of the hill / dominance type of maps, where it's about how you PVP and not how you stealth.

 

This.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Meskel]

The only thing ruining pvp is that time to kill is too short. The longer it takes for players to drop, the more skill plays into the game.

 

Stun then mash max burst rotation is no skill at all.

[Ewgal]

1. Doing Ranked WZ with such incredible class imbalances isn't worth my time. Sorcerer healers get nuked so quickly that it's not even worth the time. Before I quit I was easily a top tier Sorcerer, healing is my thing in WoW more in the way of Heroic Raiding but I'm still a very good PvP healer. My issue is that since the unwarranted nerfs to Sorcerer/Sages we've become a class that only comes into scrums and instead of being able to compete or getting the chance to we die in a single stun.

 

Sorc/Sage is a bit squishy when spec'd for max dps or healing. There are cc hybrids that improve things for us, but the dps/heals then makes us weaker than the other classes.

 

Any decent Sorcerer/Sage see's these issues. There's not a person I cannot match on my Sorc, but to gear up another character so I can be viable for high-end is taking too long and not worth my time. We're like Disc priests with smaller heals and no defensive CDs

 

We probably should have 1 defensive cool-down added to make us a bit les squishy in PvP

 

2. Having a pull is hardly "amazing utility". Name one defensive CD that we have. Point and case.

 

See above

 

3. Operatives/Smugglers are the only ones that don't get blown up in 5 seconds. We cannot be used to lure people away from Objectives because people are not that foolish anymore. If a lone healer goes out to an objective either A. Bad team or B. There's a stealth waiting for the CC to happen. To say that Sorcerers aren't vastly underpowered is a joke. I've never played a game where a healer can be blown up so quickly. Merc/Commandos must not be anything special as I haven't see a good team rolling with one yet.

 

Operative/Smuggler is also a somewhat gimped class. There is the healing, but the dps output from them was nerfed to the ground to a point where they are non-viable in PvP.

 

 

4. A little overpowered? Try again. They're hitting people for 30% in one GCD (5-6k+) with 1300+ expertise.

Sorcerer heals can barely crit for 5k. I'm glad Sorcerers have HoT that ticks for 200, it does a lot for us.

 

I think they should nerf their burst dmg, and give them better sustained.

 

5. There is no class balance now, don't kid yourself. It's groups with Operatives/Smugglers, Multiple (2-3) Marauders and Pyrotechs, tanks and MAYBE one Smugglers/OP dps there just because they can still solo healers while the Marauders/Sents murder the rest of the team. Anything else can be shut down too easily by those main DPS classes.

 

There are a few classes that need to be rebalanced and then it will alright.

 

6. Bioware has done a good job in a few places. PvP was one of them pre-1.2. Questing was the other.

Anything PvP wise has gone downhill.

 

PvP is probably headed in the right direction.

 

7. I didn't expect to do RWZ for Huttball only, that would be dumb. But if I am going to gear our another character I don't want to do WZs with pugs who don't know how to shift nodes. I don't mind losing in regulars if I am gearing up. Might as well win and lose on something I enjoy the most.

 

Need to get into a guild with enough players to field a team.

 

This.

 

Bioware could improve PvP over the next few patches, we'll see where they go.

[Dmasterr]

Can we stop seeing bad players starting a million threads relating their inability to pvp and read /learn game mechanics?

 

As soon as it doesn't go their way in a thread. They start a new one, like its gonna be any different.

 

Or you are just hoping people will just give up and stop trying to fight the windmills ?

[Baron_Samedi]

Can we stop seeing bad players starting a million threads relating their inability to pvp and read /learn game mechanics?

 

As soon as it doesn't go their way in a thread. They start a new one, like its gonna be any different.

 

Or you are just hoping people will just give up and stop trying to fight the windmills ?

 

You don't read, do you?

 

Read my 1st post, specially sentence #2.

 

EOD

[Baron_Samedi]

Many things can be annoying in PvP, most of us will get cranky now and then.

I would suggest that it is bad form to call people idiots or mentally inferior when posting from an anon forums avatar.

My father would have called it ( better edit this out as I doubt you can take it) , he had a way with words.

 

TRIED. Really. But, it seems that then they do not pay attention.

Personally, don't mind much now. Was minding before perquisite for daily was 3 WINS.

 

Somehow I think that your dad also called many people with (better edit this out).

So I am not very different from your dad.

 

Good luck, I hope you enjoy your life.

 

Thanks, mate.

[LarryRow]

Good old standing on the ledge of our finish line in Huttball, while Juggernaut has the ball and is in our pit (always popular). Of course, very few people are intelligent enough to stand on the VERY edge, so when Jug leaps, he falls down - effectively using Leap for next 15 seconds and preventing him from escaping. But - as I said, only few people knows where to stand when Jug is in sight.

etc.

 

Is this mechanic of leaping onto empty space still in the game? It hasn't happened to my guardian in forever. I also thought I saw a thread saying it was gone from the game. When I res, if the ball carrier is in my pit, I drop down as far away from him as possible.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Bioware could improve PvP over the next few patches, we'll see where they go.

 

It's not headed in the right direction as of now. Classes need a serious rebalance.

 

Also I never said I wasn't in a guild for RWZ/premades. It's not fun stomping WZs everytime even if it does get me my comms faster.

[Baron_Samedi]

Ok, since people don't read, let me reiterate my points:

 

- PVP here DO NOT SUCK.

- Its not the classes that are nerfed/buffed, its the people who don't know their character enough - SPECIALLY NOW.

- People don't use head when play, but just run for kill. This is especially visible in utilization of surroundings, like breaking LoS, ambushing etc.

- People tend to think their classes are buffed/nerfed ACCORDING TO GROUP THEY ARE PLAYING WITH AND AGAINST. But this is PERCEPTION, not real stuff. When you overwhelm your enemies with your group, you will, strangely, not think that you are "constantly snared", "cc-ed 99% of the time" etc.

- I am slightly annoyed by the fact that relics and adrenals are out, because I feel I don't give enough as DPS as before - BUT THAT'S ME! THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THIS SHOULD CHANGE!

- I am also not happy that new content is comming out in snail pace so I quit my subscription. Will come back when new content comes out.

 

The rest in the 1st post was just details about all this, including few suggestions what to do - stop concentrating about people whining for PVP changes and concentrate on new content. More WZ maps, more planets, throw in 4-5 new flashpoints.

That was it.

 

Jeez.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Baron_Samedi

[Baron_Samedi]

Is this mechanic of leaping onto empty space still in the game? It hasn't happened to my guardian in forever. I also thought I saw a thread saying it was gone from the game. When I res, if the ball carrier is in my pit, I drop down as far away from him as possible.

 

You are the clever one. Kudos.

Many people are not that clever, cause they just want to run to him asap, not thinking.

 

And I fell from the ledge yesterday in slime pit. Mr. Assasin was clever.

[Laforet]

Nothing else really bothers me

• Farming WH takes too long for people who are returning to the game for RWZs
  
• Sorcerer Healers have no defensive CDs
  
• Healers are underpowered in general
  
• Marauders/Pyrotechs have overtuned
  
• Whining baddies on the forums decided how class balance would be in 1.2 and beyond
  
• BW doesn't make class/spec changes and balances as they should
  
• The Preseason #1 of WZ should be a quick way to get geared up while they fix everything for the first actual Season
  
• Forum presence doesn't go beyond Moderators giving out warnings for saying words such as "dumb and idiot".
  
• No updates on the current situation of PvP or how they plan to move forward with each class
  
• Lack of specific Queue WZ makes gearing up even more painful. Needs more Huttball.
  

 

 

 

Hear this man he speaks the truth. Althought i still enjoy PvP with gimp sage the time its taking to balance the classes especially when PTs/Maras are clearly overtuned is starting to get onto my skin.

[Baron_Samedi]

Hear this man he speaks the truth. Althought i still enjoy PvP with gimp sage the time its taking to balance the classes especially when PTs/Maras are clearly overtuned is starting to get onto my skin.

 

I am Focus guardian fully equipped with WH Vindicator/Pummeler gear with Overkill augments (END/POW). I keybind and know my rotations.

 

EVEN if I don't kill Marauder - and that happens only in 1 out of 3 cases, and that 1 case you can see that this guy is quick, has Naga and knows his rotations better than his wallet - I cripple him to cca 5% of energy making him easy target even for Recruit Healer Sage.

 

Why would I call this class overpowered? Because I cannot kill him 1v1?

Can really somebody tell me why is he overpowered?

 

Last that I though was Kinetic Shadow was OP and with last nerf, he is perfect - formidable, but not impossible.

[Helistin]

Teams with a 4-5 marauder/sentinels melting faces paired with a few unkillable smuggler/op healers. Edited July 2, 2012 by Helistin