Vigilance pvp needs a buff

[Siorac]

Lol why ppl feel jugs and guards are the inferior class is beyond me. I got a 50 Mara and jug and here's the difference. Mara's have slightly better Dps and jugs have better survivability. I kill ppl faster with my Mara but also die a lot faster too (squisher)

 

Any Marauder/Sentinel has better survivabilty than a DPS Guardian. Since this thread is discussing Vigilance - and that is the more durable of the two DPS trees for Guardians anyway - let's take a quick look.

 

Combining Focused Defense, Commanding Awe and Unremitting you can achieve roughly the same damage mitigation per minute as a Sentinel does with Rebuke (you can Force Leap for 5 times per minute for a total of 20 seconds of 20% damage reduction; Focused Defense adds another 10 secs every 45 seconds; a Sentinel can keep Rebuke up for a total of 30 seconds per minute). It's a bit more complex than simply hitting Rebuke but hey...

 

What else do we have? Enure. One on one, that buys you 4.5 extra seconds at best as the (roughly) 6k extra health (it obviously depends on your maximum health) it provides should be knocked off in at most 3 GCDs by any semi-competent DPS. If focus fired, it's basically irrelevant. Compare it to Guarded by the Force which is a guaranteed 5 seconds extra survival which is sort of HUGE if you, say, have to hold a turret until reinforcements arrive or you're the ball carrier. Even if 8 players focus you, you get 5 seconds, during which a healer can heal you. So, Guarded by the Force wins. By a not insignificant margin. And it's cooldown is actually shorter in PvP set than Enure's.

 

What else? Saber Ward? They have it too so it's irrelevant.

 

And at this point DPS Guardians run out of any kind of defensive CDs. Sentinels still have Force Camouflage which is an awesome escape ability, giving time for the healer to heal you up or for you to pop a medpac or just wait for reinforcements. They also have Pacify - it's kind of aggravating when you fight a Sentinel/Marauder and you are forced to see your Master Strike destroyed, knowing that your most dangerous ability has been nullified while the bloody dual swinger still has a billion defensive cooldowns up his sleeve.

 

And if we compare them to Focus Guardians the comparison becomes even more embarassing because they don't have Unremitting and Commanding Awe. They have NOTHING. Sentinels/Marauders always say they need strong defensive cooldowns because they have to be in the face of enemies; yet Focus Guardians who maximize their effectiveness in the middle of HUGE groups, get nothing.

 

So, do I think Vigilance needs a buff? No, it's one of the most balanced and well-made talent trees in the game. Focus needs some kind of extra mitigation, some talent to help them (yes, they can use Soresu if they sacrifice a bit of damage but even that is insignificant compared to Sentinel cooldowns). But in reality, Guardians are fine. Comparing them to Sentinels can make them look underpowered but it is Sentinels who need to be brought in line; their defensive cooldowns have to be toned down a little. And by little I mean by an enormous amount. They are the problem, not Guardians.

[Skroting]

Big oneup for siorac, it is true that sents/maras are better in theory, but that is because they are to strong, not becuase the vigilance guardian is weak. Yes some minor tweaking could be welcomed, but to much of a bump in the guardian abilities would make it OP.

[Sinatore]

Any Marauder/Sentinel has better survivabilty than a DPS Guardian. Since this thread is discussing Vigilance - and that is the more durable of the two DPS trees for Guardians anyway - let's take a quick look.

 

Combining Focused Defense, Commanding Awe and Unremitting you can achieve roughly the same damage mitigation per minute as a Sentinel does with Rebuke (you can Force Leap for 5 times per minute for a total of 20 seconds of 20% damage reduction; Focused Defense adds another 10 secs every 45 seconds; a Sentinel can keep Rebuke up for a total of 30 seconds per minute). It's a bit more complex than simply hitting Rebuke but hey...

 

What else do we have? Enure. One on one, that buys you 4.5 extra seconds at best as the (roughly) 6k extra health (it obviously depends on your maximum health) it provides should be knocked off in at most 3 GCDs by any semi-competent DPS. If focus fired, it's basically irrelevant. Compare it to Guarded by the Force which is a guaranteed 5 seconds extra survival which is sort of HUGE if you, say, have to hold a turret until reinforcements arrive or you're the ball carrier. Even if 8 players focus you, you get 5 seconds, during which a healer can heal you. So, Guarded by the Force wins. By a not insignificant margin. And it's cooldown is actually shorter in PvP set than Enure's.

 

What else? Saber Ward? They have it too so it's irrelevant.

 

And at this point DPS Guardians run out of any kind of defensive CDs. Sentinels still have Force Camouflage which is an awesome escape ability, giving time for the healer to heal you up or for you to pop a medpac or just wait for reinforcements. They also have Pacify - it's kind of aggravating when you fight a Sentinel/Marauder and you are forced to see your Master Strike destroyed, knowing that your most dangerous ability has been nullified while the bloody dual swinger still has a billion defensive cooldowns up his sleeve.

 

And if we compare them to Focus Guardians the comparison becomes even more embarassing because they don't have Unremitting and Commanding Awe. They have NOTHING. Sentinels/Marauders always say they need strong defensive cooldowns because they have to be in the face of enemies; yet Focus Guardians who maximize their effectiveness in the middle of HUGE groups, get nothing.

 

So, do I think Vigilance needs a buff? No, it's one of the most balanced and well-made talent trees in the game. Focus needs some kind of extra mitigation, some talent to help them (yes, they can use Soresu if they sacrifice a bit of damage but even that is insignificant compared to Sentinel cooldowns). But in reality, Guardians are fine. Comparing them to Sentinels can make them look underpowered but it is Sentinels who need to be brought in line; their defensive cooldowns have to be toned down a little. And by little I mean by an enormous amount. They are the problem, not Guardians.

 

^ This

[Qa-Weef]

I feel that Vigilance is almost great, it does the near impossible of balancing well in between PVE and PVP. That however doesn't change the fact that its still weak against other melee classes in a PVP context.

 

What I proposed initially was a slight buff in the removal of the Sunder requirement from PB to help streamline rotation against high passive defence classes and the toning down of Sent/Mar defensive cd's.

 

I in no way claimed to be the best Guardian what I did bring to the table were some observations and two requests that would improve our quality of life. So far the only person who's brought something interesting to the discussion is Helig, the more I think about his idea of buffing focused defence, the more I like it.

If a Sent/Mar can survive being focus fired and then escape why shouldn't we be able to aswell?

(Granted we've already got a means of escape in the form of FL and GL)

 

Siorac just echoed everyone's view that Sentinels and Marauders need their defensive CD's nerfed and the rest of you guys are kinda lame.

 

I did however get a bit of a laugh out of Sinatore parroting Siorac though, keep posting bro.

[Skroting]

I feel that Vigilance is almost great, it does the near impossible of balancing well in between PVE and PVP. That however doesn't change the fact that its still weak against other melee classes in a PVP context.

 

What I proposed initially was a slight buff in the removal of the Sunder requirement from PB to help streamline rotation against high passive defence classes and the toning down of Sent/Mar defensive cd's.

 

I in no way claimed to be the best Guardian what I did bring to the table were some observations and two requests that would improve our quality of life. So far the only person who's brought something interesting to the discussion is Helig, the more I think about his idea of buffing focused defence, the more I like it.

If a Sent/Mar can survive being focus fired and then escape why shouldn't we be able to aswell?

(Granted we've already got a means of escape in the form of FL and GL)

 

Siorac just echoed everyone's view that Sentinels and Marauders need their defensive CD's nerfed and the rest of you guys are kinda lame.

 

I did however get a bit of a laugh out of Sinatore parroting Siorac though, keep posting bro.

 

not quite sure what you think you were doing, or if you had blacked out or something, but you INITIALLY (as in your opening post) made no suggestions on how to improve the guardian, you simply said that vig guardians were **** and you couldn't defeat anyone in a 1v1 situation. You then moved on to say that this is true for all vig guardians, and that wether or not they are a weak 1v1 class is not a matter of oppinion, but a fact, without basing that on any evidence.

 

Now while i didn't bother with reading beyond the first page before commenting, because your INITIAL statement was utter garbage, it does not make you right by now coming to your defense by trying to make it look like you weren't in the wrong the entire time. You essentially did a 180 and went from "this is the worst melee ever" to "all we need is a bit of tweaking", and then you feel the need to try and establish your supremacy by calling us lame for not responding in line with your "serious" discussion on how to improve the guardian, which in fact was all bollocks from the get-go.

 

My previous post corresponded to your opening arguement, not to the sudden change in your opinion.

[Fallerup]

Any Marauder/Sentinel has better survivabilty than a DPS Guardian. Since this thread is discussing Vigilance - and that is the more durable of the two DPS trees for Guardians anyway - let's take a quick look.

 

Combining Focused Defense, Commanding Awe and Unremitting you can achieve roughly the same damage mitigation per minute as a Sentinel does with Rebuke (you can Force Leap for 5 times per minute for a total of 20 seconds of 20% damage reduction; Focused Defense adds another 10 secs every 45 seconds; a Sentinel can keep Rebuke up for a total of 30 seconds per minute). It's a bit more complex than simply hitting Rebuke but hey...

 

What else do we have? Enure. One on one, that buys you 4.5 extra seconds at best as the (roughly) 6k extra health (it obviously depends on your maximum health) it provides should be knocked off in at most 3 GCDs by any semi-competent DPS. If focus fired, it's basically irrelevant. Compare it to Guarded by the Force which is a guaranteed 5 seconds extra survival which is sort of HUGE if you, say, have to hold a turret until reinforcements arrive or you're the ball carrier. Even if 8 players focus you, you get 5 seconds, during which a healer can heal you. So, Guarded by the Force wins. By a not insignificant margin. And it's cooldown is actually shorter in PvP set than Enure's.

 

What else? Saber Ward? They have it too so it's irrelevant.

 

And at this point DPS Guardians run out of any kind of defensive CDs. Sentinels still have Force Camouflage which is an awesome escape ability, giving time for the healer to heal you up or for you to pop a medpac or just wait for reinforcements. They also have Pacify - it's kind of aggravating when you fight a Sentinel/Marauder and you are forced to see your Master Strike destroyed, knowing that your most dangerous ability has been nullified while the bloody dual swinger still has a billion defensive cooldowns up his sleeve.

 

And if we compare them to Focus Guardians the comparison becomes even more embarassing because they don't have Unremitting and Commanding Awe. They have NOTHING. Sentinels/Marauders always say they need strong defensive cooldowns because they have to be in the face of enemies; yet Focus Guardians who maximize their effectiveness in the middle of HUGE groups, get nothing.

 

So, do I think Vigilance needs a buff? No, it's one of the most balanced and well-made talent trees in the game. Focus needs some kind of extra mitigation, some talent to help them (yes, they can use Soresu if they sacrifice a bit of damage but even that is insignificant compared to Sentinel cooldowns). But in reality, Guardians are fine. Comparing them to Sentinels can make them look underpowered but it is Sentinels who need to be brought in line; their defensive cooldowns have to be toned down a little. And by little I mean by an enormous amount. They are the problem, not Guardians.

 

I agree... this. Hit the sentinels/marauders with the nerf bat, the harder the better.

 

That said, I play rage Juggernaut. I haven't tried it yet since 1.3, but I really liked the play style of it. it's simple and effective if you know how to build up your shockwaves fast (singularities for JK).

Edited July 3, 2012 by Fallerup

[Qa-Weef]

not quite sure what you think you were doing, or if you had blacked out or something, but you INITIALLY (as in your opening post) made no suggestions on how to improve the guardian, you simply said that vig guardians were **** and you couldn't defeat anyone in a 1v1 situation. You then moved on to say that this is true for all vig guardians, and that wether or not they are a weak 1v1 class is not a matter of oppinion, but a fact, without basing that on any evidence.

 

Now while i didn't bother with reading beyond the first page before commenting, because your INITIAL statement was utter garbage, it does not make you right by now coming to your defense by trying to make it look like you weren't in the wrong the entire time. You essentially did a 180 and went from "this is the worst melee ever" to "all we need is a bit of tweaking", and then you feel the need to try and establish your supremacy by calling us lame for not responding in line with your "serious" discussion on how to improve the guardian, which in fact was all bollocks from the get-go.

 

My previous post corresponded to your opening arguement, not to the sudden change in your opinion.

 

My opinion hasn't strayed or changed from my initial post of Vig Guardians being one of the weaker specs when facing other melee. Sunder requirement on PB is an unnecessary hindrance. This slight tweak could make all the difference in a battle with a shadow tank.

Granted I hadn't proposed how to remedy the situation in my first post that shouldn't stop the discussion on how to make vigilance guardians more viable in PVP.

[Skroting]

Okay, so to get this straight, you opened with a blatant whine post, saying that vig guardians were the worst melee class, and that the only role they had were to harass and interrupt healers, and that they had no other use. You said that these were the facts, yet you provided no evidence. (spin it any way you like, this is how it started).

You started this thread sounding like a four year old, crying because you couldn't defeat any other melee classes 1v1, and therefore the class was broken. Then you try to make us look bad for not responding to this bull with lengthy discussion on how to improve the class.

 

If you want us to take you seriously, start by proposing viable changes, instead of bashing the class, using your own shortcomings as a basis for your rants.

 

And btw, your opinion is that vig guardians are weaker than other melee classes? that's just fact, remember? Your words mate.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Skroting

[Sinatore]

Okay, so to get this straight, you opened with a blatant whine post, saying that vig guardians were the worst melee class, and that the only role they had were to harass and interrupt healers, and that they had no other use. You said that these were the facts, yet you provided no evidence. (spin it any way you like, this is how it started).

You started this thread sounding like a four year old, crying because you couldn't defeat any other melee classes 1v1, and therefore the class was broken. Then you try to make us look bad for not responding to this bull with lengthy discussion on how to improve the class.

 

If you want us to take you seriously, start by proposing viable changes, instead of bashing the class, using your own shortcomings as a basis for your rants.

 

And btw, your opinion is that vig guardians are weaker than other melee classes? that's just fact, remember? Your words mate.

^ this

 

Qa weef ....as i said, EVERY class could use tweaking but vig guardians are in a good place and are far from your ludacris "facts" and whines in your original post. Just shush and go practice.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Sinatore

[gamerpaul]

My opinion hasn't strayed or changed from my initial post of Vig Guardians being one of the weaker specs when facing other melee. Sunder requirement on PB is an unnecessary hindrance. This slight tweak could make all the difference in a battle with a shadow tank.

Granted I hadn't proposed how to remedy the situation in my first post that shouldn't stop the discussion on how to make vigilance guardians more viable in PVP.

 

Dude you are seriously just bad. As a vengeance jugg I'm a monster in pvp and can take on any other melee class. In Huttball I have the mobility to be the best defender and ball carrier. In all the other warzones I just run around killing people in a few attacks each. Charge > ravage > impale > Scream > choke > vicious throw is an easy way to deal with any marauder and prevents undying rage. A lot of the time the scream isn't even necessary. Assassins are a joke the only class that worries me is a good dps powertech but there aren't too many that I encounter and I avoid powertechs anyway because they're harder to kill with melee attacks. I hope they buff vengeance juggs because people like you whine over your class being bad when in reality you just don't know how to play it.

Edited July 3, 2012 by gamerpaul

[Helig]

Dude you are seriously just bad. As a vengeance jugg I'm a monster in pvp and can take on any other melee class. In Huttball I have the mobility to be the best defender and ball carrier. In all the other warzones I just run around killing people in a few attacks each. Charge > ravage > impale > Scream > choke > vicious throw is an easy way to deal with any marauder and prevents undying rage. A lot of the time the scream isn't even necessary. Assassins are a joke the only class that worries me is a good dps powertech but there aren't too many that I encounter and I avoid powertechs anyway because they're harder to kill with melee attacks. I hope they buff vengeance juggs because people like you whine over your class being bad when in reality you just don't know how to play it.

 

Pretty sure that you're screwed against my Marauder.

[_Zorth_]

Pretty sure that you're screwed against my Marauder.

 

I eat marauders for brekfeast, But I guess they must be just bad and juggernauts are the weakest class in the game, right?

 

Good, keep thinking that..

Maybe the devs will fall for it and give us a buff instead of a nerf ^^

[Qa-Weef]

Pretty sure that you're screwed against my Marauder.

 

I'd go as far to say he's screwed against anyone good.

 

The two issue's I've brought up that compromise Vig guardians in relation to other melee classes may seem trivial to you guys but to me they are quite pronounced as the majority of active, good melee on the Oceanic PVP server are either Marauders/Sentinels and Assassin/Shadow tanks. When you have to roll against them all day erry day, one starts to notice these little things.

 

Either way another rationale as to why removing the Sunder requirement from PB is that our marquee talent should be just that, an awesome 31 talent that shouldn't have a prerequisite due to it being at the top of the vig talent tree.

 

Also Sinatore if you're going to be a paid troll you might as well do your job properly and come up with something of your own rather than parrotting other peoples idea's which btw add nothing to this discussion.

 

The thought of even entertaining MS as our "most dangerous ability" when fighting good melee reeks of keyboard turning, do you click as well?

Edited July 4, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[GarfieldJL]

My opinion hasn't strayed or changed from my initial post of Vig Guardians being one of the weaker specs when facing other melee. Sunder requirement on PB is an unnecessary hindrance. This slight tweak could make all the difference in a battle with a shadow tank.

Granted I hadn't proposed how to remedy the situation in my first post that shouldn't stop the discussion on how to make vigilance guardians more viable in PVP.

 

While I think Vigilence could use some improvements, I fail to see your logic concerning this. There are 2 skills that grant the armor debuff, one of which is just something to double the effectiveness of a regular attack, and the other is in the skill tree. Since many PvPers advocate using saber throw and then there is sundering strike I fail to get why you're having an issue using plasma brand...

 

You should be using sundering strike as one of your focus generators anyways, so it isn't exactly hard to keep that armor debuff active.

 

My concern has to do with the fact we're extremely fragile compared to other classes (certain attack types, tank guardians share this weakness).

Edited July 4, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Qa-Weef]

While I think Vigilence could use some improvements, I fail to see your logic concerning this. There are 2 skills that grant the armor debuff, one of which is just something to double the effectiveness of a regular attack, and the other is in the skill tree. Since many PvPers advocate using saber throw and then there is sundering strike I fail to get why you're having an issue using plasma brand...

 

You should be using sundering strike as one of your focus generators anyways, so it isn't exactly hard to keep that armor debuff active.

 

My concern has to do with the fact we're extremely fragile compared to other classes (certain attack types, tank guardians share this weakness).

 

I'm not advocating against the use of Sundering strike, its part of my rotation. I'm advocating against it being a requirement to PB.

I'll reiterate what I've posted before as its easy to lose the reason amongst the madness: if you come across another melee character with high passive defence, like a shadow/assassin and your initial sunder gets parried or blocked there's a very good chance they'll win the fight due to the vigilance guardians inability to get our top priority strike off.

Removing the Sunder requirement would help reduce the chance of being stifled in this situation and stream line rotation somewhat. I don't mind having my attacks mitigated by defence but having my bread and butter 31 point skill face double the chance of mitigation due it having prerequisite strike requirement is unfair.

 

Addressing your second concern of us being "squishy" I'd recommend reading Helig's suggestions in this thread.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[Helig]

I eat marauders for brekfeast, But I guess they must be just bad and juggernauts are the weakest class in the game, right?

 

Good, keep thinking that..

Maybe the devs will fall for it and give us a buff instead of a nerf ^^

 

Yeah, they forget where their Obfuscate button is, and they think that Camo is an escape maneuver.

 

I practically laugh at any Vigi Guard\Veng Jugg who thinks that "loooool i caerg u ravveg, imapel, scraem, choak, execoot and ur ded lol". Congratulations, he just did 2-3k damage in total, while I already have a full stack of Bleeds on his sorry behind.

[Siorac]

The thought of even entertaining MS as our "most dangerous ability" when fighting good melee reeks of keyboard turning, do you click as well?

 

Umm, why exactly? No reason to use it against a skilled Marauder/Sentinel, yes - but then again the best thing you can do against a skilled Marauder/Sentinel is hit Awe and run away. Vigilance Guardians just don't have the tools to deal with them (assuming both parties have all their cooldowns available - even if not they simply have much more CDs and more effective ones).

 

Against any other class, Master Strike after Force Leap is lethal. They either use a CC breaker or eat the full three hits. If you don't use Master Strike then no wonder you feel Vigilance is weak...

[Qa-Weef]

Umm, why exactly? No reason to use it against a skilled Marauder/Sentinel, yes - but then again the best thing you can do against a skilled Marauder/Sentinel is hit Awe and run away. Vigilance Guardians just don't have the tools to deal with them (assuming both parties have all their cooldowns available - even if not they simply have much more CDs and more effective ones).

 

Against any other class, Master Strike after Force Leap is lethal. They either use a CC breaker or eat the full three hits. If you don't use Master Strike then no wonder you feel Vigilance is weak...

 

MS as a top priority attack against other melee's? You know we are discussing Vigilance in this thread right, sounds like your playing Focus spec. if you are serious however perhaps you should try playing on a PVP server, one preferably with population over 30 at peak times.

[Sgt_Hammer]

Yeah, they forget where their Obfuscate button is, and they think that Camo is an escape maneuver.

 

I practically laugh at any Vigi Guard\Veng Jugg who thinks that "loooool i caerg u ravveg, imapel, scraem, choak, execoot and ur ded lol". Congratulations, he just did 2-3k damage in total, while I already have a full stack of Bleeds on his sorry behind.

 

2-3k wow if thats what vig guard/veng juggs do to you in that rotation they must really suck if i leap MS OverHead slash (if all goes well MS) BS then Dispatch if u are not almost dead and havent popped a defensive cooldown i am impressed cause using that set of abillities will pump out at least 16-20k and i'm only BM geared:)

[Qa-Weef]

oh no someone is master striking me, I'd better press "S" to get away >.>

[Siorac]

MS as a top priority attack against other melee's? You know we are discussing Vigilance in this thread right, sounds like your playing Focus spec. if you are serious however perhaps you should try playing on a PVP server, one preferably with population over 30 at peak times.

 

Umm, you know that Vigilance has a talent that resets Master Strike? Do you know why that is?

 

Please give me some arguments as to why wouldn't Master Strike be a top priority attack right after Force Leap, taking advantage of Force Leap's root? And what does it have to do with the opponent being melee or ranged? Try to explain it without the maddening condescension please.

 

oh no someone is master striking me, I'd better press "S" to get away >.>

 

Based on some of your posts you sound exactly the sort of person who would do that (try to backpedal out of Master Strike), despite the sarcasm here.

[Venjirai]

Vilgilance is fine.

In Randoms it might be a little bit frustating to get kited by good players but in rateds you actually want to get kited so you can build up those nice melee damage stacks and unload hell on the focus target.

[Helig]

2-3k wow if thats what vig guard/veng juggs do to you in that rotation they must really suck if i leap MS OverHead slash (if all goes well MS) BS then Dispatch if u are not almost dead and havent popped a defensive cooldown i am impressed cause using that set of abillities will pump out at least 16-20k and i'm only BM geared:)

 

You leap, catch an Obfuscate in the face and miss your entire "iwin" rotation.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Helig

[Venjirai]

You leap, catch an Obfuscate in the face and miss your entire "iwin" rotation.

 

You actually look at your debuffs, and CC him when you got pacified.

Good Sentinels/Marauders won't break your Mez and you lose your accuracy debuff over the duration.

[Helig]

You actually look at your debuffs, and CC him when you got pacified.

Good Sentinels/Marauders won't break your Mez and you lose your accuracy debuff over the duration.

 

So what? I made him waste his charge, his 10% damage set bonus and his "unstoppable master strike" advantage. Better yet - drew out his mez.

 

Besides, if you stand and "look at your debuffs" and not start Master Striking precisely after the charge, you'll only extend the window in which the final, strongest hit may be averted (0.5 sec normally - Unstoppable wears off just before the third hit lands). Even if I stopped one Master Strike with Obfuscate, it's a point in my favor. And toe to toe, cooldown for cooldown, marauder can has more than enough of these "points".

Edited July 4, 2012 by Helig