Nightmare Denova

[Ewgal]

I say scrap nightmare altogether in favor of more content.

 

I can't really see the point of three modes myself. Better to make the difficulty increase on modes as you progress through the Ops, and it does in EC.

 

How about a tough new world boss to keep everyone ticking over though, that would be fun. Could put it in the Ilum PvP zone since Ilum PvP zone has no real function in game anymore.

[The-Vortex]

The Bioware post still hasn't shown up yet? Strange..... Could it be that something was said that shouldn't have been and the post got pulled before anyone could see it?

[dipstik]

The lead designer for flashpoints and operations said that only a very small percentage of guilds have echm on farm (which seems very true).

 

once a reasonable number of group are able to farm echm, then it would be reasonable to expect a content update like you are asking for.

 

until then... you should just carry alts to get them all bis.

[Shinaa]

That was to whole point of nightmare, to keep the players that are too fast for hardmode a bit busy until new content is ready.

If nightmare is balanced as a challenge for those players, the other players that are currently still progressing through hardmode won't be able to do nightmare anyway until better gear with a new tier of content is live.

 

Somehow I have the feeling they scrapped nightmare mode, because there are only two possible things that can happen:

1) They deliver nightmare mode with a small patch, something like 1.3d, which seems a bit unlikely.

2) They give us nightmare mode with 1.4, but 1.4 was announced to have a new raid already, so what would be the point of it?

[The-Vortex]

2) They give us nightmare mode with 1.4, but 1.4 was announced to have a new raid already, so what would be the point of it?

 

Actually... you may be on to something there. They could just release nightmare for tier 3 and scrap tier 2 or something.

[Wugan]

The lead designer for flashpoints and operations said that only a very small percentage of guilds have echm on farm (which seems very true).

 

once a reasonable number of group are able to farm echm, then it would be reasonable to expect a content update like you are asking for.

 

until then... you should just carry alts to get them all bis.

 

The percentage of overall guilds who have completed HM EC is not a very relevant statistic. There are many guilds that do not focus on progression raiding and instead do PvP, roleplaying, casual raiding, etc. If they are not intending to clear hard mode EC, then it doesn't make sense to wait until a "reasonable" number of them have cleared it, because you'd be waiting forever. When we are discussing whether Bioware should release more progression raiding (i.e., hard) content, what seems much more relevant is the percentage of guilds that care about progression raiding who have completed all the existing content.

 

If you look at The Bastion's progression thread, you can see that most organized progression guilds have completed the content. 75% of the 16 player guilds have completed HM EC. 66% have completed 8 player HM EC. This may even include some guilds who have no desire to complete hard modes, and thus are effectively "done" with the content after story mode. Progression raiders recognize that we are not a majority of the player base, but at the same time, we need challenging content to keep us interested in the game. Saying that lots of players have not completed hard mode EC (including many who have no intention to do so) doesn't really address the core concern.

[xenofire]

Anyone who has put any credible amount of effort into clearing ECHM has been done for awhile.

 

It took us 5 hours total to clear the content. It's not hard mode, it's non-casual mode.

 

Some of our alts are in full BIS now too. It's a painful wait.

Edited June 30, 2012 by xenofire

[alifaraaz]

I just dont get what could be taking so long. I mean sure they had to scrap their old nightmare design and work up something more interesting for Nightmare but it cant take that long can it?

 

Which then makes me wonder what gear might from in Nightmare. We know it'll be a new tier of gear. But I wonder if the next ops, Terror from Beyond will work the same way as EC did.

 

Will Story Terror drop Campaign Loot

HM Terror drop the same loot as Nightmare EC?

 

If so I suppose it would maybe make sense to release them at the same time.

 

Or will they instead make it so that Story Terror will drop the same loot as Nightmare EC and HM Terror has an even newer tier? :S

 

I do hope they release it before 1.4 in a 1.3.X patch. They definitely shouldn't be holding it back to pack out 1.4 >.<

[The-Vortex]

I just dont get what could be taking so long. I mean sure they had to scrap their old nightmare design and work up something more interesting for Nightmare but it cant take that long can it?

 

Which then makes me wonder what gear might from in Nightmare. We know it'll be a new tier of gear. But I wonder if the next ops, Terror from Beyond will work the same way as EC did.

 

Will Story Terror drop Campaign Loot

HM Terror drop the same loot as Nightmare EC?

 

If so I suppose it would maybe make sense to release them at the same time.

 

Or will they instead make it so that Story Terror will drop the same loot as Nightmare EC and HM Terror has an even newer tier? :S

 

I do hope they release it before 1.4 in a 1.3.X patch. They definitely shouldn't be holding it back to pack out 1.4 >.<

 

There's been a few sets data mined from the weekly 1.2 patches and 1.3 that seem to indicate that Nightmare mode (if it ever gets released) will drop a set called "Denova" gear, which will have grade 63 mods. Why do I assume this is from Nightmare? Why would a set called Denova, which is better than Campaign drop in a raid associated with the Gree.

 

Personally I think story mode will work the same way it does now, dropping the last tier of hard mode gear (campaign) or a black hole equivalent which seems to go by the name of "Hazmat" which is also grade 63 and uses the same MK.X system BH does.. No idea what hard or nightmare would drop though, "gree" gear maybe?

 

Links to Datamined Stuff:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/gear?n=hazmat#

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/gear?n=denova#

 

My gm also has a theory that nightmare will be released in a 1.3.x patch which will end up on the PTS sometime in the next 4 - 5 weeks based solely on the fact that releasing the revamped nightmare content along with a new operation doesn't make sense as nobody would do it right off the bat when they have something shiny and new to mess about with.

[alifaraaz]

That is interesting. They did specifically mention in a q&a that each tier of difficulty would be its own progression, and that nightmare would become part of the gear progression.

 

So yeah, maybe they'll rename the said Denova set (or maybe not) having it drop in EC nightmare and in Terror HM. With campaign dropping in Terror Story and a new set dropping in Terror Nightmare. But if that happens then Terror would have to release after EC nightmare (otherwise as you said guilds might be torn between what content to fo)

And on top of that Terror should be released with all 3 modes or nightmare actually coming soon after. Soon being like 4 weeks max, not 3 months.

[DeketheDeke]

The new gear set for NiM EC is prefixed Hazmat (found this on torhead I believe) and is a halt step up. So itemizing must be taken into account for the development time as well. I would love to see a time-consuming legendary item quest released with NiM EC. Something that required a rare drop from each boss in NiM EC plus crafting/farming would be ideal to keep the progression raiders interested. I know this is a stretch but it would be a relatively quick fix to the stale end-game that we currently find ourselves bored with. I think they could hammer out one solid quest-line in a matter of weeks that could keep us occupied for a month or two until 1.4.

[The-Vortex]

The new gear set for NiM EC is prefixed Hazmat (found this on torhead I believe) and is a halt step up. So itemizing must be taken into account for the development time as well..

 

That's a good point actually, what if the nightmare gear doesn't have a set bonus due to campaign having it attached to the armouring? Hard mode Terror could then drop a grade 63 set with the set bonus along with the hazmat stuff, that way it would work similarly to the way it does now with KP nightmare dropping BH comms.

[Shinaa]

I don't know about you guys but for me nightmare does not need to have better gear, I'm in for the challenge and maybe some fun stuff, a title or mount would be enough for me.

I know BW wants to do "more" with it, but I just get the feeling they did not think it through and realized that it would take itemlevels a bit too far or something. My guild was perfectly fine with raiding nightmare EV/KP for the stuff it offered and not gear.

[pure_laced]

I want to see different set bonuses each tier personally. Tionese, Columi, Rakata, Campaign all have the same set bonus is a little lazy on BW's part.

[pureeffinmetal]

I want to see different set bonuses each tier personally. Tionese, Columi, Rakata, Campaign all have the same set bonus is a little lazy on BW's part.

 

QFT.

 

As a DPS Sorc (who Bonuses SUCK), no new set bonuses is what disappointed me the most with Campaign Gear.

[NewFADS]

Like others, saw the BioWare stamp on this thread and got excited. Thought I'd at least see an "it's coming" generic response, but...

 

And also like so many others, our guild progressed through HM EC, equipped all characters in BiS, and has now stopped raiding until Nightmare EC. We have some optional 8-man runs, but that's mainly gearing up alts through HM EC. Half the guild is off playing other games waiting, and most everyone only logs in to raid - although ranked PvP team is starting up now thanks to 1.3.

 

At the Guild Summit, a lot of promises were made for the more hardcore raiding guilds - mainly about difficulty and amount of content. So far, I'd say little to none of these expectations have been met. The recent developer layoff has some questioning if SWTOR will ever get above casual as far as raiding goes now.

[xenofire]

the recent developer layoff has some questioning if swtor will ever get above casual as far as raiding goes now.

^^ qft

[Mynden]

We've had this stuff on farm for 7 weeks now. Just give us a new window on new content. I get it, you dont want to be nailed on a date. But a window.

[Ewgal]

We've had this stuff on farm for 7 weeks now. Just give us a new window on new content. I get it, you dont want to be nailed on a date. But a window.

 

It's only 2 weeks since patch 1.3. Why not form a ranked war zone team, enjoy HM flash points with random PuG in your full campaign/BH gear, or gear up that alt to give yourself more options in future raiding? Raiding is long-term and 1.3 adds in a lot of stuff that makes the game environment more pleasant, so take advantage of the time before more content does come our way.

[Wugan]

It's only 2 weeks since patch 1.3. Why not form a ranked war zone team, enjoy HM flash points with random PuG in your full campaign/BH gear, or gear up that alt to give yourself more options in future raiding? Raiding is long-term and 1.3 adds in a lot of stuff that makes the game environment more pleasant, so take advantage of the time before more content does come our way.

 

1. Time since 1.3 is not relevant to a progression raider. The only thing 1.3 added for us was the ability to make a lot of credits if you have a profession that makes augment kits.

 

2. This is a thread about people interested in progression raiding. While some people interested in progression raiding may also enjoy competitive PvP, telling them to form a ranked War Zone team is not a viable substitute for the content that they enjoy. Before ranked War Zones were out would it make any sense to tell competitive PvPers to just do the raids? Not really, because that's not the content they are interested in.

 

3. I don't know if you "enjoy HM flash points with random PuG in your full campaign/BH gear" but enjoy is definitely not the first word I would use to describe that experience. It's certainly not a replacement for challenging raid content, no matter how much you might like to do that.

 

4. Many people like to level alts, but again, this is not progression raiding content. You could add Roleplaying, crafting, making a ton of credits, a real achievement system, or anything else about the game that people might enjoy, but those are not a substitute for progression raiding content.

 

I think most of your solutions touch on things that people "might" want to do instead of progression raid, but they do not address the core issue here. There are guilds full of people formed with the express purpose of tackling challenging raid content. That is what they want to do. When that content is not there, and we don't have clear guidance on when it will get there, most guilds find it very hard to keep going.

 

This game has already lost several high-end guilds because there is simply not enough challenging content. Others are doing their best to stay motivated and interested in the game, and we have high hopes for the future, but we'd really like some reassurance from Bioware that our hopes are justified. The amount of time this thread has been up with a phantom reply, but no actual reply, is frustrating.

[xenofire]

I think most of your solutions touch on things that people "might" want to do instead of progression raid, but they do not address the core issue here. There are guilds full of people formed with the express purpose of tackling challenging raid content. That is what they want to do. When that content is not there, and we don't have clear guidance on when it will get there, most guilds find it very hard to keep going.

 

This game has already lost several high-end guilds because there is simply not enough challenging content. Others are doing their best to stay motivated and interested in the game, and we have high hopes for the future, but we'd really like some reassurance from Bioware that our hopes are justified. The amount of time this thread has been up with a phantom reply, but no actual reply, is frustrating.

 

This is the problem in a nutshell.

 

Some people have had the content on farm since the second week of April, with the expectation that nightmare was coming soon. I'm down to like 14 raiders now. It's so difficult to recruit into a game we're not even playing anymore. I recruit people, and then they get frustrated because they see we're online only one night a week; with a few exceptions for PVPers. We're playing D3, or BF3, or DOTA2, but never SWTOR. The game is in a terrible place for raiders. One of the reasons we "finished" so quickly is that you could give equivalent from black hole comms, so everyone was in BIS in half the time. We got half our gear from raiding, and half from comms-- which is a stupid design to begin with.

 

When nightmare finally hits the PTS, I'm going to have to instantly recruit 2-3 people and hope they don't suck just to field a 16 man raid... and this problem isn't just centric to my guild, it's most top guilds with competitive gamers. There's just nothing to keep the most competitive players interested anymore.

[Emlaeh]

It would be absolutely stupid to put NM on PTS (or live for that matter) during a major US holiday week when most people are on vacation.

[Wugan]

It would be absolutely stupid to put NM on PTS (or live for that matter) during a major US holiday week when most people are on vacation.

 

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like people are asking for NM EC to hit the PTS this week in this thread. We just want a timeline of when we can expect new content, and ideally a lot more information about what that content will be. We also have concerns about the overall pace of content development. None of that means we want them to launch new stuff at the wrong time.

[pure_laced]

Honestly at this point, I wouldn't mind the existing bosses upgraded in damage, 1 new mechanic each, and call it a day for Nightmare. They could have this done in a week or two tops and call it Nightmare. At least it would be something to help keep guilds going.

 

We already know such a mechanic exists from the original PTS Zorn and Toth where there were knockbacks all the time throughout the encounter.

 

All we are asking is for a timeline, an eta, something from the dev teams that new content, Nightmare mode is being worked on and when it could be expected. Since the layoffs, and the new people in the positions since vacated aka Community Manager, the communication has gotten even worse.

[Ewgal]

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like people are asking for NM EC to hit the PTS this week in this thread. We just want a timeline of when we can expect new content, and ideally a lot more information about what that content will be. We also have concerns about the overall pace of content development. None of that means we want them to launch new stuff at the wrong time.

 

I think you're being a little unreasonable. Yes, I would like more raid content, but, I also know that SWTOR is played by more than progression raiders. Bioware has to deploy content patches to please several groups in its player base. If 1.3 was to please crafters, PvPers, alts, and PvE PuGs then so be it, you need to have an active server population and these things will help do it. But beyond that I think it more reasonable to expect a steady stream of raid content.