FIX Class balance amongst DPS classes

[WarTrip]

Bioware Devs, apparently your team is the only group who does not realize that Operative/scoundrel DPS is not on par with the other DPS classes. I had the joy of being told by our raid leader that I will never get a spot in a progression raid again because my full rakata'd operative didn't compare in DPS to the full rakata'd Marauders and Snipers in the guild. The guild needs all the DPS they can get to take down progression bosses.

 

If the intent was to have a class that didn't do comparable damage to the other classes, why not put that in the advanced class description so I when I got to choose between a sniper and an operative I would have known that sniper DPS was far superior and if I wanted to raid with an operative, I would have to be a healer.

 

While this might seem like a QQ post, having an entire class of DPSers not being comparable to the other classes is not OK when it starts to take the enjoyment out of the game. If there is any doubt about the state of the class, go look at the pvp composition of groups or the raid composition of groups and notice that operatives and scoundrels are not DPSing. The Juggernaughts/Jedi Guardians and Sorcerors/Consulars are getting to enjoy their roles as DPS classes though.

[Galbatorrix]

It sounds like you need a new guild. Was your damage really so much lower to warrant the raid leader being a douche? I bet it wasn't.

[Morgalica]

Hmmm I wonder how the raid lead can even know your dps. Since there is no recount or other dps tools of the like.

 

and honestly if your raid lead is that much of a a**clown then find a new raid team cause that one is filled to the brim with fail.

[Burtlebe]

I use a program to read the parser files and you can do it in raid format so it compares everyone there. I decided to give my scoundrel a run as dps one last time before equipping him healer and it was extremely sad. He now is equipping as heals.

[SvnStrSlm]

Unless every other dps is geared greater than or equal to you, your guild leader is a toold box deluxe from sears.

[Knockerz]

Unless every other dps is geared greater than or equal to you, your guild leader is a toold box deluxe from sears.

 

Only in a min max guild or hardcore guild do officer/guild leaders, or raid leader tell people they can't bring their character due to their class/spec not being the best or most optimized class to dps, tank, or heal for that one raid spot. If your in such a guild op, then you need to reroll and level a new character that is better suited to what you want to do, which is dps. Otherwise, the guild is overacting. A least from my experience raiding in wow is the difference between a high rank guild like between 200 and 500 isn't about min max, but just good raider and gear. However, if your aiming to be a world first guild those between 1-300, especially between 100-150 tend to be very competitive and fully optimize their raid composition for maximum performance. I was in a guild that was rank between 100-200 in woltk and raid composition was very important especially for heroic lich king.

[WarTrip]

We were all equally geared in full Rakata, so that wasn't the issue. Our few experiences using MOX parser showed that snipers and marauders topped the DPS charts while I was not as high as they were.

 

The guild barely squeaks by in EC HM right now and the DPS isn't very high. The farthest they've progressed in the last 6 weeks is the 3rd boss in EC.

 

All this wouldn't have been an issue if the operative/scoundrel community did at least close to the DPS of other the classes so there was less complaining on the forums which I am assuming our raid leader started to read. He wants to stack snipers as much as possible.

[SvnStrSlm]

Then there is nothing you can do. If that is the type of guild you want to be in then you will always have to reroll to the FotM class. My guild is not hardcore progression and we have never "needed" people to reroll or change specs. All the content is doable by just about any group make-up. Last time some one mention DPS meters and start saying X class is gimped and needs to be replaced was kicked from the guild.

[Burtlebe]

I would honestly look for a new guild if I was you. For example in our guild we run ops 4 to 5 days a week mostly cause we have 60 to 80 lvl 50s already. We are causal so they dont all play at once. We never have set a min dps requirement on anyone. Some of us use the parser but its really for us to get better not to judge people by and I have strickly forbid the use as a metric. I allow to be ran in raid by a few people who I trust wont get all big headed about it. I use it myself in solo format all the time to test rotations and ideas.

 

The only requirements we have is that for EV SM you have to have as a min the 51 armor mods. For KP storymode and ev hardmode we require columi gear. Other than that I never begrudge someone a place in an ops because i feel like thier class sucks. Some of the least performing classes in the hands of the right people can sometimes be the thing that pulls out a win.

 

As a guild leader it is my responsibility to ensure everyone in the guild can do the things they want to do. We have had people who had a really hard time with the ops but we still work it out to include them in the groups that are made up of better equipped and more veteran players to ensure they too can experiece it.

[Daikeru]

Against bosses you might be a bit out of luck, but don't you have other uses beyond your damage? Also, shouldn't you have high bloody burst?

[Davfor]

This has been a serious issue and/or major problem with MMO's. Why the heck even put a DPS tree if you are not going to make the class DPS viable? It one of the stupidest things in games today! If its not going to be a Tank/DPS/Healer, then DON'T PUT THE STUPID TREE THERE!

 

I thought the talent system never was a good idea. Yet so many companies still try and try again to make it work in their game. UO had the best system. You trained for the class you wanted to be. Pure and simple. No stupid talent bs. Then, anyone could be any class they wanted. Not stuck with having to reroll (and in most cases, people unsub/move to a different game) because of a new FOTM class.

 

Just to add, classes will never be "fixed" because of talent tree system's.You just have to either make do and find a good guild or move on.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Davfor

[Berrian]

Against bosses you might be a bit out of luck, but don't you have other uses beyond your damage? Also, shouldn't you have high bloody burst?

 

Yes, we should! However, that burst wasn't much appreciated in the pvp world and was nerfed.......twice.

Now, not so much.

[JGames]

I don't know what you mean. When a Scoundrel stealths up behind me and knocks me down and what not they end up killing me almost every time, especially when there is 2. (Operatives are the same class but with knives so the same thing applies.)

[Berrian]

I don't know what you mean. When a Scoundrel stealths up behind me and knocks me down and what not they end up killing me almost every time, especially when there is 2. (Operatives are the same class but with knives so the same thing applies.)

 

Apples and oranges. You're talking pvp, OP pve.

and if there are 2 of ANY class the results will be pretty much the same.

[Rogoo]

Bioware Devs, apparently your team is the only group who does not realize that Operative/scoundrel DPS is not on par with the other DPS classes. I had the joy of being told by our raid leader that I will never get a spot in a progression raid again because my full rakata'd operative didn't compare in DPS to the full rakata'd Marauders and Snipers in the guild. The guild needs all the DPS they can get to take down progression bosses.

 

If the intent was to have a class that didn't do comparable damage to the other classes, why not put that in the advanced class description so I when I got to choose between a sniper and an operative I would have known that sniper DPS was far superior and if I wanted to raid with an operative, I would have to be a healer.

 

While this might seem like a QQ post, having an entire class of DPSers not being comparable to the other classes is not OK when it starts to take the enjoyment out of the game. If there is any doubt about the state of the class, go look at the pvp composition of groups or the raid composition of groups and notice that operatives and scoundrels are not DPSing. The Juggernaughts/Jedi Guardians and Sorcerors/Consulars are getting to enjoy their roles as DPS classes though.

 

Seriously, why do people ever think that class balance should revolve around PvE ? It makes me wanna cry everytime I see people QQing about their class performance in PvE.

 

PvE is NOT competetive!

[Nellsterzzz]

Not for nothing, but no one really addressed the OP's statement about operative/scoundrel DPS being sub-par. I agree it goes with class balance on how min/max damage is assigned to each advanced class' dps tree, I do agree the operative DPS output needs a bit of a boost. Throughout leveling my op I felt that it would take forever to kill things, and when I finally hit 50, i don't know how good my DPS will be. It worries me because I like what the operative is all about, I just cry when I see its damage output.

[WarTrip]

Seriously, why do people ever think that class balance should revolve around PvE ? It makes me wanna cry everytime I see people QQing about their class performance in PvE.

 

PvE is NOT competetive!

 

What do you think class balance should revolve around? And PVE is very competitive for DPS classes. If you are trying to do new content that is timed, you want as much damage as you can get, why take subpar DPS? It's competitive for tanks as well. How often do we gauge a tank by how many HPs he has? Do you want the 23k tank or do you want the 18k tank? No one looks at the other defining attributes of a tank first, they look at the HPS first.

[Technohic]

Apples and oranges. You're talking pvp, OP pve.

and if there are 2 of ANY class the results will be pretty much the same.

 

The problem is, 2 together can stun lock you until dead. DPS increase and suddenly 1 could do it. I do agree that it is apples and oranges going PvE to PvP, but at the same time, it is probably hard to balance one without breaking the other.

[wetslampigduex]

i have an op now in guild (now speced heals because we needed a healer) but when he ran as dps he was right behind the snipers/maras in dps close enough to not make a difference on a few pug raids i ddi with him he beat out every sorc dps and most mercs... its the player not the class imo... seems there is no room for a mistake in the rotation

[BradPiff]

The problem is, 2 together can stun lock you until dead. DPS increase and suddenly 1 could do it. I do agree that it is apples and oranges going PvE to PvP, but at the same time, it is probably hard to balance one without breaking the other.

 

Dont forget bioware said themselves that teams of stun locking operatives was the reason 400k people unsubscribed

[WarTrip]

i have an op now in guild (now speced heals because we needed a healer) but when he ran as dps he was right behind the snipers/maras in dps close enough to not make a difference on a few pug raids i ddi with him he beat out every sorc dps and most mercs... its the player not the class imo... seems there is no room for a mistake in the rotation

 

It's really not the player vs class argument. And it's particularly hard to compare your friend to people in a PUG, you don't know how good the people are vs how good your friend is. And he was still behind the marauders and snipers, I've never seen anyone say that a DPS op topped the damage meters, or that a DPS op did as much as the Marauders and snipers. And I don't think you will until the class is balanced. And I don't even think it would be hard for BW to balance, it could be something as easy as removing the cooldown on Shiv. Vicious strikes and snipe don't have cooldowns, why does shiv? That would also help ops with the rotation issue which there is no room at all for error.

 

Easy fix: Remove the cooldown on Shiv and put the 6s cooldown on Lacerate instead (for concealment specced ops, something else would need to be done for lethality ops, but that could be something simple like boosting the DOT damage). That fix would make it way easier for Op/scoundrels to maintain their tactical advantage, would reduce the sensitivity of the rotation and it doesn't add any significant burst DPS to PVP. That would probably give op/scoundrels at least a little boost and would make the class a little more viable without breaking pvp. (I don't know the names of the scoundrel abilities.)

[Technohic]

Dont forget bioware said themselves that teams of stun locking operatives was the reason 400k people unsubscribed

 

lol Did they really say that? I don't know why you would say that even if it were true. All that would tell me is 400k subscribers were a bunch of babies that they couldn't handle waiting until something is done.

 

IMO; if they want operatives to be as high DPS as a sniper or a marauder, or a PT; they need to either give up some stuns or stealth. It's always been hard to balance stealth classes anyway giving the utility that provides, let alone make them also stun lock people. Not only do you usually get the advantage of attacking first, you also eliminate peoples ability to react. Just stupid design.

[Davfor]

The problem is, 2 together can stun lock you until dead. DPS increase and suddenly 1 could do it. I do agree that it is apples and oranges going PvE to PvP, but at the same time, it is probably hard to balance one without breaking the other.

 

Sorry to bust your thought bubble but ONE, yes ONE, Sentient/Marauder can kill you faster than 2 Op/Scoundrels. Heck, even a TANK spec Assassin/Shadow can kill pretty fast. I will agree a Op/Scoun can kill a person (in PvP) fast but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, like the OP classes like Sentient/Marauder and Powertech/Vanguard and, of course, Sorcerers. Those are still the big reason why many unsub.

 

But, this is just like in WoW with one class was the OP of the month then nerfed for another. All for the sake of PvP.

[Davfor]

lol Did they really say that? I don't know why you would say that even if it were true. All that would tell me is 400k subscribers were a bunch of babies that they couldn't handle waiting until something is done.

 

IMO; if they want operatives to be as high DPS as a sniper or a marauder, or a PT; they need to either give up some stuns or stealth. It's always been hard to balance stealth classes anyway giving the utility that provides, let alone make them also stun lock people. Not only do you usually get the advantage of attacking first, you also eliminate peoples ability to react. Just stupid design.

 

All they would do is like on "that other game", limit the stun in PvP, but normal in PvE. Easy fix.

[Technohic]

All they would do is like on "that other game", limit the stun in PvP, but normal in PvE. Easy fix.

 

Or they could tweak the way resolve works in PvP. I still think that system leaves much to be desired. I guess if done in a creative way, they wouldn't have to touch the stuns or stealth.