Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[Mahrdol]

Sorc/sage need more survivability. The others are fine. Rated WZ are mostly about survivability. The longer your heals are up the longer you have to get back to guarding the door/turret/bunker. It is a big advantage.

[Elkirin]

With every game I have played the story has been the same " if there are no healers or tanks being played the game is very quickly dead". If the healer/tanks can Neither dps or survive, they will reroll or move on to other games. They are always in demand in any game that includes group based PvE.

 

Try to come up with suggestions that do not remove those people who enjoy these tank/healer roles from SWTOR.

 

IMHO,

 

I suggest multiple selectable roles similar to Rift would be a better solution, then we can all DPS equally in PvP without killing off the classes needed in PvE. The hardcore healers will still heal despite disadvantages they face but at least they will also have a valid DPS option to turn to if they need a break.

 

Good luck.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Elkirin

[TheEvilEeyore]

Good sorc/sage healers will get their casts off. They have so much utility including sprint, range stun, slow, knockback + root.

 

Force armor (the shield) is kind of an heal too. It absorbs 3k+ damage. It just can't crit but can be used on the move too. All the other spells are on such a fast cast time that you have more then enough time to get them off in a 1 vs 1 situation vs an equally skilled / geared DPS if you combin them with your utilites and CC.

 

It's another story in group fights, but as allready said healers shouldn't be balanced on group fights just because DPS isn't balanced on group fights neither. Alot of factors determine whether you are succesfull or not in those fights.

 

I am sorry but you could not be more wrong. If we are talking "good players here" then no "good" play is ever going to let a 2.3 second cast go off. The 1.5 second cast that we do have crits for an epic 2k in pvp pretty sure tpyro tech dots crit for about that same amount.

 

None of that is taking into account the unholy amount of interupts cc's and stuns in the game,

 

Your point about utility is all well and good except remember you and i are talking about "good" players.

 

Force speed: oh let me yank you right back to me, or leap to you with 2 second build in root, or force choke you, or any of ther 10000 cc's there are.

 

Force armor: get real. 3k dmg is nothing when dps are hiting for 5k over and over again.

 

Force wave + slow: this is the only one that i will give you. but it breaks on 1 point of dmg so if you don't tell your team ahead of time that you're doing it.. it doesn't matter anyways.

 

Ranged slow: yeah again.. sorry but every class has a counter.

 

1/2 you people saying that say OP is just crying have never played a healer, you just think those green numbers popping up over your head come from a magical *********** fairy that blesses you because your dps is SOOO OMG UBER.

 

Any decent dps can pressure a helaer so hard it makes him pretty much useless in the current state of the game. If we don't just kite and run away the whole time we die instantly.

 

So the question is why have healers at all? really... you will never stay alive against a well co-ordinated team.

[TheEvilEeyore]

I think this game has attracted the lowest common denominator- I think it's a bunch of CoD players who aren't used to not being able to kill everything in a few seconds. It is pretty bizarre- and you'll notice that none of them have anything logical to say.

 

I mean- you have Walsh who will in the same post continue his hate for healers, saying they should be easy to solo kill because their only purpose is to rely on others and keep DPS alive... that the TTK isn't bad at all... then he'll say 'every class, even DPS with immunity defensives dies in a couple seconds'.

 

If every class is dying in a few seconds that's a perfectly good reason to do something about the insanely low TTK- but, that would mean a nerf to damage- and that would be unacceptable.

 

Problem is that the devs share that- every time you see them asked about DPS their eyes grow wide with wonder and they have nothing but good things to say- ask them about healing and they get that look of loathing and redirect conversation to another topic. We're playing a game where the makers do not like the healing role- I mean, that should have been obvious the moment they put in the first ever permanent mortal strike debuff for healers in pvp- that is up no matter what, all the time.

 

If you told healers in WoW 'you get to have mortal strike on you at all times- and some classes can put a second mortal strike on you that stacks with that', they'd say you were joking because that's the stupidest thing ever... that DPS still cannot handle healers and ask for nerfs on this forum just speaks to how terrible the DPS players are in this game- you've had the game handed to you on a silver platter, and you're whining that it's not gold.

 

PvP in this game is done- it's not going to get better, BW doesn't make good decisions, it'll be f2p in a year.

 

This guy *********** knows what he is talking about...

[TheLordMaster]

Yea seriously not only does expertise and mainstats scale better towards damage but there is the trauma debuff...lol soo funny.

[Geglad]

While I do agree that PvP healing in PvE-heavy games can be tough to balance, there is a lot of logic to balancing it around DPS and healer mutually countering eachother, effectively blocking eachother's contribution.

 

This.

 

I play a sorc heals. The problem seems to me to be proper distribution of resource use over the global timelines. For example, and just tossing numbers because they change based on gear: a Ravage can hit for 6k or better over a 3 sec duration baseline, no criticals, but a DI can crit for only 5k and its casting is 2.5 secs. If the idea is to balance heals and dps for a virtual stalemate the tuning needs to be based on use of secondary resources to provide the replenishment or reduction of the primary resource, that is; force or rage costs, in this example, should be roughly equivalent and their effect in providing a decrease or increase in health should also be proportional to the resource spent during the time of usage.

 

Again some baseline fabricated numbers by way of example:

 

Ravage : cast time 3 secs, potential damage 3000 - 6000, cost 2 rage

(1-2k potential primary resource effect per sec, 20% potential secondary resource use.)

Dark Infusion : cast time 3 secs, potential healing 3000- 6000, cost 100 force.

(1-2k potential primary resource effect per sec, 20% potential secondary resource use.)

 

 

These numbers would offset one another, but the problems begin when you look at the channeled nature of Ravage in particular. If you stall Ravage on tick 2, potential damage is still 2-4k, following these numbers, but stalling the Dark Infusion reduces its output to zero. However, that could be fine-tuned, along with secondary resource replenishment, cost reductions, armor values, avoidance, etc. The principle within the numbers holds. Time and secondary resource use should be proportional to the effects on the primary resource.

 

And from what I can see, they are not yet. But then again, I dont really expect them to ever be.

 

Its not chess.

 

 

-Lad

[Aurojiin]

Dark Infusion... cost 100 force.

Ehh... not so much.

[Geglad]

Ehh... not so much.

 

It was by way of example to show proportion in resource use =P

[Alizaro]

From a marauder's perspective, they need somrthing. Just a little something. But not a buff with heals, they heal fine.

 

Maybe something to avoid interrupts on a timer but they're definitely disadvantaged by a large margin by a competent marauder.

[Siorac]

Geg, there's one thing you don't take into account with that example. Master Strike/Ravage has a 30 sec cooldown, Dark Infusion has no cooldown apart from the global.

 

This is a crucial difference when we're talking about the balance between damage abilities and heals. (oh, and Ravage/Master Strike costs no Rage/Focus )

[DaedalusV]

This.

 

I play a sorc heals. The problem seems to me to be proper distribution of resource use over the global timelines. For example, and just tossing numbers because they change based on gear: a Ravage can hit for 6k or better over a 3 sec duration baseline, no criticals, but a DI can crit for only 5k and its casting is 2.5 secs. If the idea is to balance heals and dps for a virtual stalemate the tuning needs to be based on use of secondary resources to provide the replenishment or reduction of the primary resource, that is; force or rage costs, in this example, should be roughly equivalent and their effect in providing a decrease or increase in health should also be proportional to the resource spent during the time of usage.

 

Again some baseline fabricated numbers by way of example:

 

Ravage : cast time 3 secs, potential damage 3000 - 6000, cost 2 rage

(1-2k potential primary resource effect per sec, 20% potential secondary resource use.)

Dark Infusion : cast time 3 secs, potential healing 3000- 6000, cost 100 force.

(1-2k potential primary resource effect per sec, 20% potential secondary resource use.)

 

 

These numbers would offset one another, but the problems begin when you look at the channeled nature of Ravage in particular. If you stall Ravage on tick 2, potential damage is still 2-4k, following these numbers, but stalling the Dark Infusion reduces its output to zero. However, that could be fine-tuned, along with secondary resource replenishment, cost reductions, armor values, avoidance, etc. The principle within the numbers holds. Time and secondary resource use should be proportional to the effects on the primary resource.

 

And from what I can see, they are not yet. But then again, I dont really expect them to ever be.

 

Its not chess.

 

 

-Lad

 

Errr.... You do know rage/focus is a ressource that is GAINED by being in combat, force is a ressource that gets depleted... Balancing force cost with rage/focus isn't really an option (oh and afaik ravage and master strike cost 0 ressources under the current ruleset.)

Question: How do you propose to balance out a heal vs Rail Shot?

 

Several different ressource pools and ways to gain ressources, makes it pretty much impossible to balance heals/dps on ressource pool useage.

 

A couple of ideas:

- Give sages/sorcs a specced proc on their bubble (in tier 6 in the healing tree) that will heal damage on the bubble-target on a point for point basis for a short time period when it is cast. (3 seconds?) Bubble doesn't scale, so give us some other kind of mileage off it as a healer. Plus it'll make 31 point heals more worthwhile in pvp (BWs design philosophy)

 

- give sages a new sage/sorc-only skill, make it a defensive cooldown (we have zero, we NEED one) Sages/sorcs already get a VERY low amount of unique skills for the AC. The other two healer ACs got stealth and dmg reduction, sages/sorcs are kiting based, so why not give us a kiting based defensive cooldown? (immune to slows/snares + attackers get slowed when they hit the sorc/sage) (addendum; That CD will make us OP in huttball. Give us a 30 meter teleport instead. Ball will drop on teleport)

[BurnsTwoThree]

... are you kidding?

Is it going to hurt us to have our good heal be able to proc every 6 seconds after an instant HoT for 1.5 second cast time rather than 2.5 second casttime?

 

Is that a serious question?

 

Sorry, what I meant to say was that would it really make us overpowered to let us have it. I was in a rush to leave and said the completely wrong thing. It was supposed to be rhetorical but I misspoke.

[Geglad]

Geg, there's one thing you don't take into account with that example. Master Strike/Ravage has a 30 sec cooldown, Dark Infusion has no cooldown apart from the global.

 

This is a crucial difference when we're talking about the balance between damage abilities and heals. (oh, and Ravage/Master Strike costs no Rage/Focus )

 

 

Understood. But again my numbers were by way of example. Replace Ravage with...Damage Ability X that costs Z% and takes A Time to cast on B Timer CD , and DI with Heal Ability Y that costs Z% A Time to cast on B Timer CD . I also understand that cds play a critical role in initial burst versus sustained dps. Its why I mentioned that cds (thats the "time" reference and includes globals in my post), and armour and avoidance, etc. would also have to be fine-tuned.

 

Just look at the concept - think big picture here. In the classic triangle we have three components that surround the primary resource, your health bar. Those three, simplified; Damage, Mitigation/Avoidance, and Healing. Just like a smaller version of your typical MMO party; DPS, Tank, Healer. Each one of those require a secondary resource, like rage, force, ammo...or rage, energy, mana, focus, etc, to use. Using them requires time, limited by the global cd, or on use, like Ravage.

 

If you match time for use, time to use, effect and cost with armour, avoidance, buffs shortterm and longterm, pots, trinks, other cds, etc. you may get balance. They dont all have to be the same ability with different effect on resources, its just cost, benefit and time in proportion to each ability that needs to be the same.

 

You follow?

 

But also again....I dont expect it, the balance that is...=P

 

-Lad

Edited June 30, 2012 by Geglad

[Geglad]

Errr.... You do know rage/focus is a ressource that is GAINED by being in combat, force is a ressource that gets depleted... Balancing force cost with rage/focus isn't really an option (oh and afaik ravage and master strike cost 0 ressources under the current ruleset.)

Question: How do you propose to balance out a heal vs Rail Shot?

 

Several different ressource pools and ways to gain ressources, makes it pretty much impossible to balance heals/dps on ressource pool useage.

 

A couple of ideas:

- Give sages/sorcs a specced proc on their bubble (in tier 6 in the healing tree) that will heal damage on the bubble-target on a point for point basis for a short time period when it is cast. (3 seconds?) Bubble doesn't scale, so give us some other kind of mileage off it as a healer. Plus it'll make 31 point heals more worthwhile in pvp (BWs design philosophy)

 

- give sages a new sage/sorc-only skill, make it a defensive cooldown (we have zero, we NEED one) Sages/sorcs already get a VERY low amount of unique skills for the AC. The other two healer ACs got stealth and dmg reduction, sages/sorcs are kiting based, so why not give us a kiting based defensive cooldown? (immune to slows/snares + attackers get slowed when they hit the sorc/sage) (addendum; That CD will make us OP in huttball. Give us a 30 meter teleport instead. Ball will drop on teleport)

 

Good ideas by the way, if balanced right. Blink would be fun. But anyways...

 

Yes - I do know that rage and focus are gained by being in combat. Is there a problem with rage gains that follow a similar mechanic to energy or force? Its a possible solution. And yes force gets depleted, but it can also be regained in combat. Why not make the gains simlilar in percentage? Just an idea...

 

Oh and yes, for the third time...I was using ravage as a name, by way of example. As I stated in my post.

 

Now Railshot, instant proc on effect, (incap or periodic unless Tracered if I recall?) for X Damage with Y cost? Hmm, how about "Healshot", instant proc on effect for X heals with Y cost, only usable on targets that are incapacitated or under the effect of a HoT. CD 15 secs? Its been a while...but again, look at the big picture first. We can hammer out whether the CD is 12 secs or 9 secs, the cost is 50 or 32 with talents, etc.

 

The same applies to the resource management, gains and pools. Are they really that different? It all looks the same to me.

 

 

<shrug>

[DaedalusV]

Good ideas by the way, if balanced right. Blink would be fun. But anyways...

 

Yes - I do know that rage and focus are gained by being in combat. Is there a problem with rage gains that follow a similar mechanic to energy or force? Its a possible solution. And yes force gets depleted, but it can also be regained in combat. Why not make the gains simlilar in percentage? Just an idea...

 

Oh and yes, for the third time...I was using ravage as a name, by way of example. As I stated in my post.

 

Now Railshot, instant proc on effect, (incap or periodic unless Tracered if I recall?) for X Damage with Y cost? Hmm, how about "Healshot", instant proc on effect for X heals with Y cost, only usable on targets that are incapacitated or under the effect of a HoT. CD 15 secs? Its been a while...but again, look at the big picture first. We can hammer out whether the CD is 12 secs or 9 secs, the cost is 50 or 32 with talents, etc.

 

The same applies to the resource management, gains and pools. Are they really that different? It all looks the same to me.

 

<shrug>

I can see where you're going, and it may be a reasonable way of thinking for the devs to balance things between tank/dps/heals. But we have 18 DPS trees 3 tank trees and 3 healer trees. TBH I think it's a bit too simplistic. (Instead of a flat out balancing between 3 class archetypes, you need to balance, not only raw dmg/mitigation/heals but ALSO spin and flavor of each AC)

 

Short answer to your last question is a resounding yes.

[fungihoujo]

Sorry, what I meant to say was that would it really make us overpowered to let us have it. I was in a rush to leave and said the completely wrong thing. It was supposed to be rhetorical but I misspoke.

 

I don't think it is OP- was it OP when you could get two DI off of a single resurgance? Well, ya. But having the ability to proc a faster DI makes sense.

 

I mean- that DI will heal on average under 4k health- still has a 1.5 second casttime.... there are at least a dozen INSTANT abilities that do MORE damage than that.

 

There are dots that tick for almost TEN TIMES what our HoT ticks for.

 

Abilities that counter healers- mainly interrupts- are off GCD... a healer's big counter to DPS CC/dots is cleanse, but it's not off the GCD.

 

 

Again- how can there be balance when there are numerous instant abilities that deal more damage than our best heal which takes 2.5 seconds to cast? Think about it- at zero seconds, you start casting, they hit you with say, smash for 7k, at 1.5 seconds, they hit you with blade storm for 4k, at 2 seconds they interrupt you instantly.

 

Whoops, they just did 11k damage and you're out your big heal for four seconds- which they'll interrupt again anyway.

 

'well then, get out of range before casting' OK, I'll get into a position where I am not within 30 m of any enemy player, yet still be in a position where I can heal my allies.

 

Yup, that's reasonable- and that's all you need. Jugg/mara can leap that, sins/PT can pull that, snipers are probably the easiest to handle if you have a pillar or something nearby (woe is you if you're in the open).

 

At least with 1.5 seconds you are giving the other player little time to react and interrupt- with 2.5 seconds even clickers can interrupt that heal.

 

I fail to understand why BW has made it so excessively easy to interrupt sorcs- because it is excessively easy. Is it to try to make dark heal an alternative? Because dark heal isn't one- it costs about as much force yet heals half as much as DI- even a crit heals less than a non crit for DI.

 

It might seem as if DI is supposed to be holy light, and dark heal is flash of light- but FoL made up for its high cost by healing a good amount. Simply put- increase the cost of dark heal, make it a clutch heal- right now it is not that because it doesn't heal enough to be useful in any situation where someone is going down fast.

 

This is the problem BW has had with everything in this class- they simply nerf viable things rather than fix the problems.

 

-Madness, Lightning specs weren't popular before 1.2 because they offered at most one or two advantages, while losing a large amount of healing and burst damage to almost every hybrid spec. Do they fix the mediocre end of those trees and give lightning strike a damage boost? Nope- they remove CL wrath which was the center of every single spec at the time in pvp... without giving any sort of alternative or boost to make up for it.

 

-Healers have only one form of decent force regen- consumption, but, to BW it is too strong because it can be procced to be free. They remove the ability to get free ones entirely. What do they do in return to counter the insane health costs of consumption? (11% health for 8% force, which is both the cost and the amount of healing that dark heal gives you btw) Do they increase force regen, give maybe some talents to give bonus regen, or some sort of alternative? Or perhaps increase the force gained and decrease the cost? Nope- nothing is given in return, and force regen becomes so bad that healing pvpers all roll a lightning hybrid to take advantage of their force regen- since it is the ONLY TREE IN THE AC THAT HAS A RESOURCE REGEN SYSTEM THAT MAKES SENSE.

 

-Healers have a double dip DI, they apparantly can heal twice very fast- fair enough, fix that bug... but BW double fixes it by removing it entirely- giving us no shorter DI heal in an attempt to make dark heal more usable... is dark heal improved? Nope. Is an alternative heal given? Nope. You expect, after nerfing our force regen massively, that we're going to spend force on something that has DOUBLE the force cost per amount healed than DI? That's yet another double nerf- meaning they made DI less viable AND dark heal less viable at the same time.

 

So, basically- they didn't like DI being used exclusively, and the speed of it, so they nerf it without making dark heal viable. They don't like people using hybrids that rely on CL wrath rather than using full builds, so they nerf it but add absolutely nothing to full builds. They don't like healers being able to heal without having to worry about resource- so they make the resource regen so bad, healers have to spec hybrid in order to heal well which is somewhat ironic considering they just nerfed all hybrids.

 

Does BW really think nobody is going to see that?

 

Oh, and no, I don't want to hear you apologists with your "Actually the 'changes' (note, they never say nerfs even though it was purely a patch of removing things with nothing being added) made to the sorc may have killed some builds, but they've added all these other new builds"

 

NO IT DID NOT. Those 'new builds' all existed before the patch- nobody played them back then. Why? Because they SUCK. They didn't get better with the patch- the good builds all got worse or plain out utterly removed. Making something worse just for the sake of other things, which haven't changed at all, being better than what was once good is not 'change', it's definitely not a buff- it's a nerf. Anyone who says otherwise has not looked at any of the 1.2 patch notes for sorcs, didn't play the class before hand, doesn't understand what a nerf is- and is either not a good player or has a vested interest in the class performing poorly.

 

Sorcs weren't OP before 1.2- their claim to fame was that bads playing sorcs were better than bads playing anything else. Well grats BW- you are catering your game entirely to bads, and you've lost or are about to lose every single decent PVPer from your game.

 

You've actually managed to do something I didn't think was going to happen, after spending two years completely unimpressed by GW2- I'm looking forward to August 28.

 

You have two months to make some massive changes, time's ticking.

[Durasturan]

The problem here is a philosophical one not a real one.

 

 

 

First of all... Why should a Healer be better than a DPS? Why should we need 2 DPS to take one healer out of the picture? They are one class. We are one class. Why should DPS be relegated to an ancillary role? If 1 Healer = 2 DPS then 2 Healers = 4 DPS, 3 Healers = 6 DPS, 4 Healers = 8 DPS or a full ops group.

 

Then Add tanks to the mix. Suddenly every Warzone group is running:

2 DPS, 2 Tank, 4 Healers and all matches end up being mostly stalemates until one team scores.

 

Enter a game with less than 4 Healers and you instantly gimp yourself by giving the enemy a chance to realistically kill someone on your team.

 

1 Healer = 1 DPS - It is simple, and fine because you still have cross healing and tanks.

 

It makes sense too a every single advanced class in the game can be a DPSer.

 

8 can be DPS

3 can be Healer

3 can be Tanks

 

There logically would be more DPS than healers in Warzones.

 

When 1 Healer = 2 DPS the game becomes all about the healers. There is no strategy other than "Stun as many enemy healers as you can and focus fire the remaining one down."

 

Right now a Healer can turn the tide of any fight. They have a tremendous impact on the battle. They, however, shouldn't be the most important cog in the machine. They are just a cog, no better, or worse, than any other cog.

 

Also hold on...

 

 

 

No Sentinel is doing that and still doing any DPS.

 

Sentinels have 2 true interrupts.

1. Force Leap (Which only Watchmen can use at close range.)

2. Force Kick (Which is our default.)

 

We have Force Stasis, which is a 3 second stun that stuns us too and we have Awe.

 

Awe and Stasis are on long cool downs and in melee combat only one spec of Sentinel can Force Leap. So most Sentinels have usually 1 "interrupt" and it is a rare moment when they will have all of their abilities off cooldown.

 

By the same token how many knock backs, stuns, and/or mezzes do you have?

 

Everything you said is wrong. NO ONE is saying a healer should be as good as two DPS, but they should be able to survive one. Healers are no where near as powerful as DPS.

 

1. We have our baseline healing massively reduced in pvp because of a crappy debuff.

2. Damage benefits substantially more from expertise than healing does point for point.

3. Every healing class relies on cast time or channeled heals for their main healing ability these can be interrupted and locked out where as most dps rely on instant cast or proc'ed abilities (except for sorc/sage which is brokenly bad since 1.2 and sometimes sniper and merc but not nearly as completely)

4. Our heals are affected by pushback as well, a really ****** mechanic which can turn a 2.4 second cast (**** that's a long time in pvp) into a 4 second cast quite easily.

5. There is no healer in the game that has what could be described as "burst" healing anymore and the only thing that comes close to burst healing will not heal for even half of what a dps can put out with their burst and will eat up half your resources (or more here's looking at you Op) in the process.

6. The healing trees do not have nearly as much innate survivbility as the DPS trees making healers far squishier.

7. Healing trees do not have nearly the DPS as tanking trees making them far weaker. If a DPS tries to attack you as a tank, you can quite possibly kill the DPS, as a healer, you have neither the healing to live through it and have to run away or wait for back up, nor the damage to put up a serious fight.

 

IN CONCLUSION:

Healers don't have the damage to fight toe to toe with tanks and dps

Healers don't have the healing to survive burst damage nor the sustain to live through fights once targeted

There is no diminishing return or immunity for interrupts which means all healers can be neutralized without doing a single point of damage to them.

[BurnsTwoThree]

I fail to understand why BW has made it so excessively easy to interrupt sorcs- because it is excessively easy. Is it to try to make dark heal an alternative? Because dark heal isn't one- it costs about as much force yet heals half as much as DI- even a crit heals less than a non crit for DI.

Very true, but it is also a joke as to how small our AoE heal ticks are as well. I believe one of the healing classes should get an AoE heal that's spammable but not too strong. Even if we want to find something to spam, Dark Heal won't get the job done because too much damage goes out to blanket more than one guy with quick heals.

Hell, even focusing a single person free-casting Dark Heal has a good chance of not keeping them up (not saying that's how you heal just making a point). Then again you could say that you shouldn't even compare trying to keep someone up with Dark Heal, so if you need fast large heals where else are we getting them from? That's right, we have nothing. We had it taken away because a DPS couldn't switch targets and CC or take the healer out of the equation first.

 

It might seem as if DI is supposed to be holy light, and dark heal is flash of light- but FoL made up for its high cost by healing a good amount. Simply put- increase the cost of dark heal, make it a clutch heal- right now it is not that because it doesn't heal enough to be useful in any situation where someone is going down fast.

 

As a Holy Paladin, DI is more like a Divine Light that isn't nearly as good as any big heal should be.

 

 

Healers have only one form of decent force regen- consumption, but, to BW it is too strong because it can be procced to be free. They remove the ability to get free ones entirely. What do they do in return to counter the insane health costs of consumption? (11% health for 8% force, which is both the cost and the amount of healing that dark heal gives you btw) Do they increase force regen, give maybe some talents to give bonus regen, or some sort of alternative? Or perhaps increase the force gained and decrease the cost? Nope- nothing is given in return, and force regen becomes so bad that healing pvpers all roll a lightning hybrid to take advantage of their force regen- since it is the ONLY TREE IN THE AC THAT HAS A RESOURCE REGEN SYSTEM THAT MAKES SENSE.

I would like to see them revert consumption to pre-1.2 status and instead of making our Resurgence/Rejuvination cause our Innervate/Healing Trance to have higher crit, I would like to see it do 4 ticks instead of 3. Since as of now it's still a small heal for the 2.6 second cast time that it has. It's smaller and slower than a DI/Deliverence

 

Healers have a double dip DI, they apparantly can heal twice very fast- fair enough, fix that bug... but BW double fixes it by removing it entirely- giving us no shorter DI heal in an attempt to make dark heal more usable... is dark heal improved? Nope. Is an alternative heal given? Nope. You expect, after nerfing our force regen massively, that we're going to spend force on something that has DOUBLE the force cost per amount healed than DI? That's yet another double nerf- meaning they made DI less viable AND dark heal less viable at the same time.

Refer to the last line of the last response I give, that sums it up.

 

Dark Infusion can no longer cast twice fast = Nerf

Dark Infusion no longer casts fast = Nerf

Force Shield does not scale with gear. They did not improve it when they should have in the patches to compensate for the increased damage and health players have from War Hero being out = dumb, not directly a nerf but we will consider it one for every patch that they do nothing about it.

 

 

 

Sorcs weren't OP before 1.2- their claim to fame was that bads playing sorcs were better than bads playing anything else. Well grats BW- you are catering your game entirely to bads, and you've lost or are about to lose every single decent PVPer from your game.

 

I am going to disagree with you here. I believe that it lies more that bads playing OTHER classes had trouble with the class purely because it takes a player to know the in's and out's of their class to really solo a healer. There was 3-5 players on my old server that could solo me pretty well just because they were good at their classes.

But if you were bad, or if you had a flaw in your offensive play style I nearly always found a way to counter you. AS IT SHOULD BE.

 

 

You have two months to make some massive changes, time's ticking.

 

They have less time for me, I will probably stop playing for school/work sooner than later. Not waiting around for them to take months to balance a broken system. I like the comment earlier that someone said.

Bioware: If it works, break it. If it is broken, break it some more.

Edited June 30, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Adellion]

I disagree with the DPSers complaining that they should be able to take a healer 1on1. They shouldn't be able to. They should be able to force a healer to heal himself constantly in order to survive against said DPS, thereby stopping the healer from healing others, but they should be able to survive against one DPS for a long period of time. The other team should have the brains to get another DPS on the healer to take him down (or kill off the other members of the team while the original solo DPS distracts the healer).

[fungihoujo]

Bioware: If it works, break it. If it is broken, break it some more.

 

Ironic enough- I coined that back when 1.2 patch notes first came up.

[BurnsTwoThree]

I disagree with the DPSers complaining that they should be able to take a healer 1on1. They shouldn't be able to. They should be able to force a healer to heal himself constantly in order to survive against said DPS, thereby stopping the healer from healing others, but they should be able to survive against one DPS for a long period of time. The other team should have the brains to get another DPS on the healer to take him down (or kill off the other members of the team while the original solo DPS distracts the healer).

Honestly healers should have to heal themselves through the damage and use their own abilities to get away/keep DPS away from them long enough to heal not only themselves but other people. As Sorcerers we would be able to do this granted they toned down some overpowered abilities that some classes have such as Smash and Rail Shot (not limited to just these two abilities). The largest heal of a healer should never be smaller than the highest amount of damage that can be put out by any class.

 

The most ridiculous thing I keep hearing is that people think healers should be REQUIRED to have a guard on them. Healers need to have guard at the moment but over all we should not have to require it, as it is now.

 

 

 

 

Ironic enough- I coined that back when 1.2 patch notes first came up.

 

You may have said it earlier in the thread; I saw it and I really liked it.

[Ntranced]

I am going to disagree with you here. I believe that it lies more that bads playing OTHER classes had trouble with the class purely because it takes a player to know the in's and out's of their class to really solo a healer.

 

This is correct. The forums were in flames as bad players who had no idea how to play any type of MMO screamed and screamed at BW to "fix" sorcs and operatives. The end result is a dumbed down game where, even taking account of how (cough) "hard" it is to play well, even a face-rolling keyboard turner playing a Sent/Mara can demolish a healer in a few GCDs. Those bad players have moved on, some re-rolled Mara when it was FoTM but even a lot of those have realized bad players regardless of class will always be bad players and gone to Hello Kitty Online or something.

 

At least the operatives got a reasonable healing buff in return for all the times they got nerfed in DPS concealment. Funny they never really bothered me much pre-nerf anyway.

 

And all the time the Tankasin laughed as everyone seemed to overlook them.

 

DPS vs Healer should effectively be a stalemate at similar gear and skill levels. The DPS will win in the end of course as the healer will deplete resources. If the healer makes a mistake the DPS will win faster. The healer should never really beat the DPS unless they are truly bad. That is how it should be.

 

In any other competitive PVP you hear the term "pressure the healer". The objective is to force the healer to do nothing but heal themselves, thereby effectively shutting them down. One DPS should do it. You don't need this term in SWTOR because one DPS just kills a sorc/sage healer dead in a stupidly low amount of GCDs.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Ntranced

[Geglad]

I can see where you're going, and it may be a reasonable way of thinking for the devs to balance things between tank/dps/heals. But we have 18 DPS trees 3 tank trees and 3 healer trees. TBH I think it's a bit too simplistic. (Instead of a flat out balancing between 3 class archetypes, you need to balance, not only raw dmg/mitigation/heals but ALSO spin and flavor of each AC)

 

Short answer to your last question is a resounding yes.

 

 

We differ in opinion. The simplicity of it is what makes it viable imho. You balance the archetypes to achieve a baseline number set for time and cost of use of each secondary resource and its effect, or benefit on the primary resource. From there you tweak the dials up and down to differentiate the classes, adding "different" ablities just above their archetype, and then add another layer of abilities derived from the second "different" abilities for classes, and so forth.

 

Since its been "decided" that X heal should cost 10% of resource, with a use time of 1.5 secs, no cd timer as the base archetype Heal1 ability...

 

Class 1 Heal 1 ability; c 10, b x, t 1.5, cd none

Class2 Heal 1 ability; c 12, b 1.2x, t 1.8, cd none

Class 3 Heal 1 ability; c 05, b .5x, t .75, cd none

 

Three core heal abilities of a "class" just above archetype that are different but where C/B is identical. Following this principle in the rest of the resource management might work.

 

I am sure they thought of it btw. I am just saying that its possible.

 

 

-Lad

[brianmack]

We differ in opinion. The simplicity of it is what makes it viable imho. You balance the archetypes to achieve a baseline number set for time and cost of use of each secondary resource and its effect, or benefit on the primary resource. From there you tweak the dials up and down to differentiate the classes, adding "different" ablities just above their archetype, and then add another layer of abilities derived from the second "different" abilities for classes, and so forth.

 

Since its been "decided" that X heal should cost 10% of resource, with a use time of 1.5 secs, no cd timer as the base archetype Heal1 ability...

 

Class 1 Heal 1 ability; c 10, b x, t 1.5, cd none

Class2 Heal 1 ability; c 12, b 1.2x, t 1.8, cd none

Class 3 Heal 1 ability; c 05, b .5x, t .75, cd none

 

Three core heal abilities of a "class" just above archetype that are different but where C/B is identical. Following this principle in the rest of the resource management might work.

 

I am sure they thought of it btw. I am just saying that its possible.

 

 

-Lad

 

Let's not assume that they thought of anything. Based on the knee jerk reaction and some of the just weird decisions I've seen roll out, every idea should be shared.

[CoMaDarK]

IT's easy balance the sorcs healers, simply buff static barrier and make the trauma debuff from 30% to 25% the problem is to survive not the healings.

In pvp i die in secs with 1250 expertise and full WH gear, it's not about skill or gear it's about our shield it's not good with the output dmg of this patch.

Or just descrease the casting time of Dark Infusion by 0.5 secs.

I hope Bioware will read this... at least before guild wars2 come out...

Edited July 1, 2012 by CoMaDarK