Post 1.3 Vanguard Tank. Your Thoughts?

[harenmacar]

Well I for one and upset in our new way of Ion Cell. To be short it is a straight PVE spec, that means running DPS Assault on the side. The HIB Cell proc is useless. We aren't an AOE Class, buffing our weak/over ammo cost AoE was pretty Dull. I know my overall DPS is suffering now. Survivability isn't that great either given we don't have a way to really fight back anymore.

 

I would like feedback from other Vanguard tanks and your thoughts because as is I'm having a hard time figuring out why I shouldn't shelf my VG

[Huggsnotdruggs]

I know this isn't productive to your thread but if im not mistaken troopers have more AoE choices are their disposal than any other class... making them the best candidate i can think of for an aoe class Edited June 27, 2012 by Huggsnotdruggs

[Dhuell]

As a Shield Spec. Vangaurd i now feel like a glass cannon without the cannon. If this is the way its going to be, i don't see myself continuing on with this game.

[Huggsnotdruggs]

WOW that bad for ya huh? thats too bad. I rather enjoy the changesfrom a pve perspective and notice no change at all to my mitigation.

 

anyways take care, GL in your next game

[AutoCocker]

Running shield spec i can tell my dps is way down from pre 1.3 in pvp. So yes that is kind of a bummer.

 

In PvE however i do enjoy the free surge blasts along with hib now acting as an aoe taunt too. Buffing our threat level with ion cell was a big plus. Now if taunt is down and you need to toss a couple shots on a stray mob that may be on your healer you actually stand a chance of being able to peel it.

[harenmacar]

Running shield spec i can tell my dps is way down from pre 1.3 in pvp. So yes that is kind of a bummer.

 

In PvE however i do enjoy the free surge blasts along with hib now acting as an aoe taunt too. Buffing our threat level with ion cell was a big plus. Now if taunt is down and you need to toss a couple shots on a stray mob that may be on your healer you actually stand a chance of being able to peel it.

 

yeah a lot of productive things for PVE, I do like that our HIB won't hit a floating target makes it great for those Flashpoints! I don't like explosive surge though. I guess we were a litlle over powered when it comes to defense/offense ratio

[Dhuell]

Yeah its pretty sad

[sctwo]

These nerfs are total crap...I'm not even surviving like I did pre-1.3.

[Majram]

Really guys??!!! Learn to play and adapt!!! I m doing even more dps than before...Less single target but I can put so much pressure on healers + the dps debuff all over the place. Gonna post screen shot later

[bumpy_anderson]

I think it all boils down to play style. With my vanguard, I would guard nodes by myself, because I could solo most classes. Now, I am a little nervous while fighting most classes because the single target damage has taken a hit. I never noticed how often I crits until now. The iron fist was extremely versitile and gave you options that don't hold as true now. Not unlike the previous poster, the aoe can be usefull in certain situations. Personally, I'm going to start working on getting the gear to run assault. I've thought about it for a while and this is the best opportunity to do so. Good luck all...

[kjfett]

Seems pretty obvious that the devs want a PVE tank spec in shields and a PVP DPS spec in Assault with Tactics being somewhere in the middle. IF apparently wasn't what they devs had in mind. IMHO, it wasn't all that anyway. I'm sure my fellow Assault spec VG's will agree with me.

[Philosomanic]

I'm loving 1.3! Very happy about everything. I ran KP yesterday with my guild, and tanking is much more fun now. I actually have a chance of holding onto a group of mobs now. It's still pretty tricky, especially considering how far apart BW likes to spread their enemies, but we definitely have increased AoE capability.

 

I'm also pleasantly surprised about the changes to PvP. I just had to change my playstyle. My focus has always been on guard, taunt, debuffs, and CC first. However, I would usually fill the rest of my time with single-target damage. After 1.3, I tried focusing on AoE damage. I'd use any AoE skill I had before I'd use my single-target skills. It was actually surprisingly fun. I could see a clear difference in how fast the enemy went down. I could tell that I was frustrating enemy healers, and it was fun.

[AlyxDinas]

I still think that the bonus damage on Stockstrike crits should have been reduced and not removed, as well as retaining the 9sec on our DoT. The new HiB AoE is nice enough but not really much and the free E. Surges are nice but even with the damage boost, they don't seem to be too great.

 

/shrug

 

It's playable but it's got a lot of 1v1 issues in my estimation and for a tank, that's a bit silly.

[kjfett]

I still think that the bonus damage on Stockstrike crits should have been reduced and not removed, as well as retaining the 9sec on our DoT. The new HiB AoE is nice enough but not really much and the free E. Surges are nice but even with the damage boost, they don't seem to be too great.

 

/shrug

 

It's playable but it's got a lot of 1v1 issues in my estimation and for a tank, that's a bit silly.

 

How is that silly for a tank? Tanks aren't DPS and shouldn't be relying on DPS like that from the old SS to tank. 1 vs 1 DPS is the point in the other two specializations. AOE dmg that Shields got was designed to make tanking easier on groups of mobs and it has a boost to threat in it that greatly improves the tree's intended purpose...tanking. Doesn't seem silly at all...in fact it makes perfect sense.

[Maskedumpa]

As far as Nerfs go it wasn't anything like they did to Shadows/Assasins.

 

I was running Iron Fist For PVP, and now post 1.3 I made some adjustments and I am fine.

 

Changes like this are inevitable so deal with it.

This probably wouldn't have happen if people don't always QQ when a class seems OP.

 

Protector

Shadowlands.

[kjfett]

As far as Nerfs go it wasn't anything like they did to Shadows/Assasins.

 

I was running Iron Fist For PVP, and now post 1.3 I made some adjustments and I am fine.

 

Changes like this are inevitable so deal with it.

This probably wouldn't have happen if people don't always QQ when a class seems OP.

 

Protector

Shadowlands.

 

lol, no one was QQing about IF or shields being OPed.

[MDR_WeedKnight]

lol, no one was QQing about IF or shields being OPed.

 

yes they were why do you think they nerfed all the hybrids across all classes. they want us to play our roles your a tank guard, dps damage and healers heal. pick a spec and play it.

[Aunara]

A couple of notes: I enjoy both PvE tanking and PvP; I was mostly shield tree and not an I.F. build. I only recently hit 50 on my Vanguard and still gearing up. (though up to ~900 expertise & 18k hp)

--

I am more than a bit frustrated with the changes in 1.3, I really didn't have an issue tanking before but now I can't stand my own in PvP. In several matches since 1.3, I can no longer stand toe to toe with a healer or shadow/assassin. I have literately beat on these classes for minutes and can no longer kill them without assistance. I don't want to be king of the hill and I believe in balance; this is not balanced though.

 

If anyone has a tank aligned spec they wish to share, I'd be thrilled to try it out. However I refuse to respec daily/hourly due to a balance issue.

[Stachman]

As far as Nerfs go it wasn't anything like they did to Shadows/Assasins.

 

I was running Iron Fist For PVP, and now post 1.3 I made some adjustments and I am fine.

 

Changes like this are inevitable so deal with it.

This probably wouldn't have happen if people don't always QQ when a class seems OP.

 

Protector

Shadowlands.

 

If you dont mind, which way did you go since ironfist? I haven't respec'd since 1.3 hit, and am looking for a build to try out. I used the Ironfist build too and loved it, but the nerf bat came a whacking.

[Philosomanic]

I have literately beat on these classes for minutes and can no longer kill them without assistance.

 

That's actually not your job at all. It's a DPS player's job to burn down high-defense targets. Your job is primarily to defend your team with every tool you have (guard, taunts, debuffs, cc, pulls/roots), and then to apply pressure as best you can.

 

In fact, if you really have spent minutes beating on enemy healers, then you were being a truly horrible tank, and dead weight dragging your team down. That's time where you contributed essentially nothing to your team. You should have been defending your team, especially the healers, and applying AoE pressure.

 

If you want to be able to kill people solo, that's great. Play a Tactics or Assault Vanguard, and you'll do an awesome job at that role. Assault/Tactics is designed to be able to burn down enemies 1v1, and we're especially good at high defense targets thanks to all the internal/elemental damage. However, that is not the job for a tank Vanguard.

 

Stop trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole. It's not going to work, and it's not supposed to work. Either switch to the square hole (defend your team) or get a round peg (Assault/Tactics).

Edited June 28, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Aunara]

Your opinion and frankly it lack understanding. A tank is able to hold off nodes in Civil War, Voidstar, or Denova; tanks have the skills and HP to survive until the team can reinforce. More so for teams with 2-3 tanks and fewer people to guard. Prior to 1.3 I could defend a node, even kill an enemy if need be. Now I simply can not kill other classes, maybe its a build issue or the lack of roughly 20% damage output.

 

Either way my opinion is that Bioware needs to review the recent changes or offer dual spec option.

[kjfett]

yes they were why do you think they nerfed all the hybrids across all classes. they want us to play our roles your a tank guard, dps damage and healers heal. pick a spec and play it.

 

No. They weren't. They may have nerfed other class hybrids as OP, but IF was not nerfed for being OPed. It just didn't fall in line with their Tank/DPS/Heal model.

[Philosomanic]

Your opinion and frankly it lack understanding. A tank is able to hold off nodes in Civil War, Voidstar, or Denova; tanks have the skills and HP to survive until the team can reinforce. More so for teams with 2-3 tanks and fewer people to guard. Prior to 1.3 I could defend a node, even kill an enemy if need be. Now I simply can not kill other classes, maybe its a build issue or the lack of roughly 20% damage output.

 

Either way my opinion is that Bioware needs to review the recent changes or offer dual spec option.

 

You can still guard a node until reinforcements arrive. When you said that you can "beat on them for minutes", you clearly showed that you're able to survive for minutes. If you can't get backup in under two minutes, your team is losing no matter what you do.

 

Honestly, stealth DPS players are the best for defending a node. They have a great mez to buy time, and the whole point of a stealth player is to burst down a single target with no backup. You can do a good job guarding nodes, but I personally believe you'll do far more good for your team if you're in the thick of things defending your teammates.

 

 

 

 

Also:

 

the lack of roughly 20% damage output.

 

We haven't lost 20% damage output. The number is more like a quarter of that. Math:

 

 

• By my parsing, pre-1.3 stock strike made up somewhere between 20% and 35% of my total damage. I'll err on the side of you being right, so let's call it 35%.
  
• Let's say that SS has a base damage of 1000 (for easy math). Let's assume you have 25% crit chance (buffed), 20% surge, and the combat tech 4-set bonus.
  
• Pre-1.3, Stockstrike would have a 70% crit chance and a 50% crit multiplier. This means that it would do an average of 1,350 damage.
  
• Post-1.3, Stockstrike would have a 56% crit chance and a 20% crit multiplier. That's an average of 1,120 damage.
  
• So that would mean we lost 230 average damage on SS with 1.3 (given 1k base damage).
  
• That's a 17% average damage loss on Stockstrike.
   
  
• Since we're assuming that SS makes up 35% of our damage, that would mean we lost a total of 6% single-target damage.
  
• With a more moderate estimate (SS as 25% of our damage), we lost ~4% single-target damage.
  

 

 

So, we lost 4-6% single-target damage, and that's not factoring in automatic Ion Cell on HiB. My personal opinion is that we lost a net 4% single-target damage overall. That sucks, yeah, but it's not like it's a class-killing nerf. Basically, it's going to take one more hit to kill someone than before. In exchange, we got a nice boost to AoE damage.

 

When you consider the 6% nerf to self-healing some healing classes got, we should arguably do better against healers than before the patch.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Aunara]

I appreciate the number break downs, it does feel a bit more than those percentages but I will keep testing.

[Zbus]

You can still guard a node until reinforcements arrive. When you said that you can "beat on them for minutes", you clearly showed that you're able to survive for minutes. If you can't get backup in under two minutes, your team is losing no matter what you do.

 

Honestly, stealth DPS players are the best for defending a node. They have a great mez to buy time, and the whole point of a stealth player is to burst down a single target with no backup. You can do a good job guarding nodes, but I personally believe you'll do far more good for your team if you're in the thick of things defending your teammates.

 

 

 

 

Also:

 

 

 

We haven't lost 20% damage output. The number is more like a quarter of that. Math:

 

 

• By my parsing, pre-1.3 stock strike made up somewhere between 20% and 35% of my total damage. I'll err on the side of you being right, so let's call it 35%.
  
• Let's say that SS has a base damage of 1000 (for easy math). Let's assume you have 25% crit chance (buffed), 20% surge, and the combat tech 4-set bonus.
  
• Pre-1.3, Stockstrike would have a 70% crit chance and a 50% crit multiplier. This means that it would do an average of 1,350 damage.
  
• Post-1.3, Stockstrike would have a 56% crit chance and a 20% crit multiplier. That's an average of 1,120 damage.
  
• So that would mean we lost 230 average damage on SS with 1.3 (given 1k base damage).
  
• That's a 17% average damage loss on Stockstrike.
   
  
• Since we're assuming that SS makes up 35% of our damage, that would mean we lost a total of 6% single-target damage.
  
• With a more moderate estimate (SS as 25% of our damage), we lost ~4% single-target damage.
  

 

 

So, we lost 4-6% single-target damage, and that's not factoring in automatic Ion Cell on HiB. My personal opinion is that we lost a net 4% single-target damage overall. That sucks, yeah, but it's not like it's a class-killing nerf. Basically, it's going to take one more hit to kill someone than before. In exchange, we got a nice boost to AoE damage.

 

When you consider the 6% nerf to self-healing some healing classes got, we should arguably do better against healers than before the patch.

 

Many players already parsed in depth and from multiple sources and posted thier results on PTS board prior to patch it is close to a 18 to 20% drop in single target dps. If you have parses that refute the info already documented by multiple sources then post it otherwise all your doing is what your post mentions guessing and estimateing on the changes.