R.I.P. Guardian Tanks!

[Fallerup]

You really haven't seen what a Shadow tank or an Assassin Tank can do, huh...

 

You can often mistake them for a dps, the damage I've seen tank shadows and assassin shadows do is rather ridiculous.

 

1.3 "fixes" this problem too.

 

Enrage timers or not, damage is not part of a tank's job description. That is why you have DDs. Damage dealers are suppose to kill the target that the tank is keeping busy. I agree that the Assassin tree is designed wrong and that it should get the same nerf bat as the Juggernaut tank tree, BUT then they need to make the so called dps trees viable in PvP. Right now, they are icons on a screen with almost all 0's everywhere (25/1/17). So, in reality. If you hit the enrage timer, it's the damage dealers that are to blame and noone else, their damage is too weak. Of course, in this example, I have perfect healers that keep all the dps alive at all times.

 

this said, I play a sniper in PvE (DD), I play a tank hybrid in PvP, so this is not to cast the blame on anyone but myself and my fellow damage dealers. one more thing. If they are gonna nerf 1 tank's damage, then they should nerf all 3 or give all 3 the same threat and damage. equal rights for every style of play, that is what I stand for!

Edited June 29, 2012 by Fallerup

[KiranK]

1.3 "fixes" this problem too.

 

Enrage timers or not, damage is not part of a tank's job description. That is why you have DDs. Damage dealers are suppose to kill the target that the tank is keeping busy. I agree that the Assassin tree is designed wrong and that it should get the same nerf bat as the Juggernaut tank tree, BUT then they need to make the so called dps trees viable in PvP. Right now, they are icons on a screen with almost all 0's everywhere (25/1/17). So, in reality. If you hit the enrage timer, it's the damage dealers that are to blame and noone else, their damage is too weak. Of course, in this example, I have perfect healers that keep all the dps alive at all times.

 

this said, I play a sniper in PvE (DD), I play a tank hybrid in PvP, so this is not to cast the blame on anyone but myself and my fellow damage dealers. one more thing. If they are gonna nerf 1 tank's damage, then they should nerf all 3 or give all 3 the same threat and damage. equal rights for every style of play, that is what I stand for!

 

And yet every other tank in the game has no problem at all dishing out damage. Just the Guardian. Sorry, I don't buy this BS argument. Damage means threat. Threat is in the tank's job description. Therefor, damage is in the tank's job description. Plain and simple. No damage, no threat. Little damage, little threat. Big damage, big threat. Not rocket science. Bad damage = bad tank.

[Saprezzan]

I've made a topic in the Suggestions forum titled Revert Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow change :

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4761305#post4761305

 

Please support this topic if you feel that the change was ill-advised. Let's voice our discontent.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Saprezzan

[Cybermeister]

<snip>1.3 "fixes" this problem too.

Enrage timers or not, damage is not part of a tank's job description. </snip>

The problem with this attitude (well, one of the problems...) is that when you play on a PvP server where open world conflict (i.e. ganking) happens on a regular basis, right now there's very little a guardian tank can do when they are attacked, even in a 1v1 (never mind 1 v 2) other than curl up in a ball and whimper while you receive a fatal kicking. You may extend the time until you die, but that just makes it more painful really. Unless someone comes along and bails you out of the cr@p, you're dead.

 

I'm good at PvP... according to the people I play with anyway. I know I am a damn good tank and I make the best of a bad lot with the tools at my disposal... but right now, even with hybrid spec, almost full WH War Leader gear, if I get jumped on Ilum by pretty much anyone who knows how to play their class in PvP, (except a jugg ofc), I'm dead meat

Edited June 29, 2012 by Cybermeister

[arkitip]

And yet every other tank in the game has no problem at all dishing out damage. Just the Guardian. Sorry, I don't buy this BS argument. Damage means threat. Threat is in the tank's job description. Therefor, damage is in the tank's job description. Plain and simple. No damage, no threat. Little damage, little threat. Big damage, big threat. Not rocket science. Bad damage = bad tank.

 

This is simply not true. You have abilities in your tree that are marked as generating high threat, AKA they have threat multipliers. Guardians have 2 of these abilities, Shadows and Vanguards have 1. They generate snap threat and damage is really not the biggest factor there. With the way taunt works in this game, aggro is incredibly easy to hold even with poor damage output, especially with the high threat abilities.

 

1 of my characters is a 50 Shadow Tank. I tank for my guild's Ops, currently we're 2/4 HM EC (hopefully now that transfers have revitalized the game we'll get that 4/4). I assure you that I was able to easily maintain threat prior to 1.3s threat boosts using a very low damage rotation (seen on the MMO Mechanics website as the Low Thrash Rotation). This rotation is essentially: Slow Time, TK throw with 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, Project, and Double Strike if at High Force otherwise Strike. This is, in the best of times, a 600 DPS rotation but more likely a 500 DPS rotation in practice.

 

As I stated earlier, the only way a Shadow/Assassin increases their DPS is by using a resource intense rotation involving fishing for Particle Acceleration procs on Project by spamming Double Strike and building their 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows that way. This was typically a PVP only rotation done in DPS gear. As of 1.3, with the decrease to Shadow's armor rating and the self healing provided by TK Throw buffed with Harnessed Shadows, it is even more important than before for Shadows to build HS and use it as quickly as possible, which the high DPS rotation can't reliably do.

 

Vanguards had the surge rating lowered on Stock Strike, which is their high threat generator too. So like I said, Guardian damage wasn't the only damage nerfed.

[Rikeryo]

what do you expect from former mythic devs?

[arkitip]

1 other thing I forgot to mention is that the Shadow "tanks" you see doing bigger DPS in WZs are typically running a 24/0/17 or 23/1/17 build. Even that rotation that fishes for PA procs doesn't do big DPS, it just has a higher theoretical burst because of the damage a PA Project with Force Potency can do if you stack DPS stats.

The 24/0/17 variants aren't tanks. They're hybrids that use DPS gear just like the Defense/Vig hybrid and the Iron Fist spec for Vanguards and PTs. It isn't a viable PVE tank spec.

 

Your 31/x/x tank builds simply aren't high damage builds for any of the tank ACs.

[Cybermeister]

<snip>This is simply not true. You have abilities in your tree that are marked as generating high threat, AKA they have threat multipliers. Guardians have 2 of these abilities, Shadows and Vanguards have 1. They generate snap threat and damage is really not the biggest factor there. With the way taunt works in this game, aggro is incredibly easy to hold even with poor damage output, especially with the high threat abilities.

</snip>.

 

Most (although not all) of the arguments against the changes are centered on PvP scenarios. Mostly WZ's, some 'open world' Point is, threat / aggro level is meaningless in PvP. Unless you can force a player to attack you it is meaningless... sure taunts are good for lowering dps temporarily, assuming you're not the one under attack, but although damage == threat, threat != damage. The only way you're going to get a player to stop attacking the guy you're defending and start attacking you is if he considers you to be dangerous to his health bar.

 

It doesn't matter a damn how much threat you have in PvP, if you yourself are not a threat, DPS that are beating on your healer will just continue to do so, knowing full well that as soon as the healer goes down the tank that was guarding them will follow very quickly afterwards (as the majority of their health will already have gone guarding the healer).

Edited June 29, 2012 by Cybermeister

[FalcoLombardi]

Tanking as a full Immortal Juggernaut, well, 32/7/2 anyways. Damage is about the same, threat is better, only thing that doesn't hit as hard is Crushing Blow (Guardian Slash)

[arkitip]

Most (although not all) of the arguments against the changes are centered on PvP scenarios. Mostly WZ's, some 'open world' Point is, threat / aggro level is meaningless in PvP. Unless you can force a player to attack you it is meaningless... sure taunts are good for lowering dps temporarily, assuming you're not the one under attack, but although damage == threat, threat != damage. The only way you're going to get a player to stop attacking the guy you're defending and start attacking you is if he considers you to be dangerous to his health bar.

 

It doesn't matter a damn how much threat you have in PvP, if you yourself are not a threat, DPS that are beating on your healer will just continue to do so, knowing full well that as soon as the healer goes down the tank that was guarding them will follow very quickly afterwards (as the majority of their health will already have gone guarding the healer).

 

The quote in question wasn't directed at PVP. In PVP, none of the full 31/x/x tank builds are particularly awesome. Like I said, the Shadow "tanks" you see running around doing pretty good damage are usually a 23/1/17, 22/1/18, or 24/0/17 variant which gives them access to Force in Balance and utility like instant force lift. It's a PVP only hybrid tank build that has no PVE viability because it skips Kinetic Ward and Harnessed Shadows. As far as I know the only current hybrid tank build that's viable in PVE and PVP is.... You guessed it, Guardian and Juggernaut Immortal/Vengeance hybrids.

 

 

In case my point has been lost in the wall of text posts, I'm arguing that the idea that Guardian tanks are dead because of a damage nerf is certainly not true for PVE (where all the tank builds effectively had their damage reduced, even if indirectly via Shadows defensive nerfs), and that in PVP it's largely irrelevent because the 31/x/x builds were NEVER the preferred "tank" build in PVP anyway due to the way tank mitigation stats work (or don't work) in PVP.

[DarthBandeth]

Tanking as a full Immortal Juggernaut, well, 32/7/2 anyways. Damage is about the same, threat is better, only thing that doesn't hit as hard is Crushing Blow (Guardian Slash)

 

We lost 6% of our damage from the SSM changes and Crushing blow does a lot less now as well. That's quite a nerf for the lowest DPS spec in the game. Yes, we're a tank, but seeing as we have the worst DPS of the 3 tanks, we didn't need the nerf.

[grallmate]

This is simply not true. You have abilities in your tree that are marked as generating high threat, AKA they have threat multipliers. Guardians have 2 of these abilities, Shadows and Vanguards have 1. They generate snap threat and damage is really not the biggest factor there. With the way taunt works in this game, aggro is incredibly easy to hold even with poor damage output, especially with the high threat abilities.

 

1 of my characters is a 50 Shadow Tank. I tank for my guild's Ops, currently we're 2/4 HM EC (hopefully now that transfers have revitalized the game we'll get that 4/4). I assure you that I was able to easily maintain threat prior to 1.3s threat boosts using a very low damage rotation (seen on the MMO Mechanics website as the Low Thrash Rotation). This rotation is essentially: Slow Time, TK throw with 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, Project, and Double Strike if at High Force otherwise Strike. This is, in the best of times, a 600 DPS rotation but more likely a 500 DPS rotation in practice.

 

As I stated earlier, the only way a Shadow/Assassin increases their DPS is by using a resource intense rotation involving fishing for Particle Acceleration procs on Project by spamming Double Strike and building their 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows that way. This was typically a PVP only rotation done in DPS gear. As of 1.3, with the decrease to Shadow's armor rating and the self healing provided by TK Throw buffed with Harnessed Shadows, it is even more important than before for Shadows to build HS and use it as quickly as possible, which the high DPS rotation can't reliably do.

 

Vanguards had the surge rating lowered on Stock Strike, which is their high threat generator too. So like I said, Guardian damage wasn't the only damage nerfed.

 

While it may appear like that, "High Threat" abilities simply have a +50% threat modifier on them (unless this changed in 1.3). The way +x% things work in SWTOR is they add. When Soresu was +50% threat generation then Guardian strike would deal 200% threat (around 3-5k for me). Now that Soresu is +100% threat Guardian Slash will deal +250% threat. But it also deals less damage and ends up only netting about 2.5-3.5k threat every 12 seconds. While I could pull out 3k threat from an Overhead Slash in Soresu every 9 seconds.

 

The problem is similar for Hilt Strike, it deals 250% threat but its damage was reduced so the net threat didn't change much. Infact, Force Sweep deals more threat than hilt strike, and nearly as much as Guardian Slash now. While yes, our overall threat has gone up (much easier to hit 2k TPS) our 'high threat' abilities are next to useless outside a stun and a little 'smart' aoe.

[DallianWyrd]

I am in 31/10/0. I have half Recruit half battlemaster and I have done today 6 PVP session. (2 Huttball, 1 Denoma

2 Alderand, 1 Voidstar)

 

On voidstar and alderand I have done 200k damage/ 250k Protection/125k Healing average with my Guardian.

BUT I have to admit that in hybrid Defense/Vigilance I usually do 250-300k/200k Prot/175k Healing.

And yes I am in Tank Stuff except for 4 Surge/Crit enhancement. So no, I don't think it is correct to say RIP Guardian Tanks, but we have to adapt. =)

[grallmate]

I am in 31/10/0. I have half Recruit half battlemaster and I have done today 6 PVP session. (2 Huttball, 1 Denoma

2 Alderand, 1 Voidstar)

 

On voidstar and alderand I have done 200k damage/ 250k Protection/125k Healing average with my Guardian.

BUT I have to admit that in hybrid Defense/Vigilance I usually do 250-300k/200k Prot/175k Healing.

And yes I am in Tank Stuff except for 4 Surge/Crit enhancement. So no, I don't think it is correct to say RIP Guardian Tanks, but we have to adapt. =)

 

Damn those are some high numbers. Mind if I ask how you manage to come close to my Sage's healing numbers? (When I'm against a team that actually focus me). My Guardian struggles to get past 20k healing and thats from Enure and Guardian leap set bonus.

[Draqsko]

Damn those are some high numbers. Mind if I ask how you manage to come close to my Sage's healing numbers? (When I'm against a team that actually focus me). My Guardian struggles to get past 20k healing and thats from Enure and Guardian leap set bonus.

 

Enure doesn't count as a heal anymore, Focused Defense procced heals do.. Popped Enure a few times, FD once.. had 543 healing for the warzone..

[GarfieldJL]

I don't think Guardian Tanks are gone at least in PVE, the only thing that may be on the way out is the DPS Vigilence guardian that uses Sorseu extensively instead of Shien. The last thing you want to have happen is the DPS constantly pulling threat away from tanks and given the fact that Sorseu now adds double the threat it used to, combined with the fact it would be a DPS using the stance, meaning higher damage totals, from a PVE standpoint, I think we'll see fewer DPS Vigilience guardians using Sorseu except in emergency situations.

[Draqsko]

I don't think Guardian Tanks are gone at least in PVE, the only thing that may be on the way out is the DPS Vigilence guardian that uses Sorseu extensively instead of Shien. The last thing you want to have happen is the DPS constantly pulling threat away from tanks and given the fact that Sorseu now adds double the threat it used to, combined with the fact it would be a DPS using the stance, meaning higher damage totals, from a PVE standpoint, I think we'll see fewer DPS Vigilience guardians using Sorseu except in emergency situations.

 

Pure Vigilance always used Shien in PVE and Soresu in PVP, anyone that PVE'd in Soresu as pure vig guard doesn't know their class at all.. The people you are talking about are hybrid specced Vig/Defense tanks that live in Soresu. They are not DPS, they are main/off tanks. Trust me those people are still around and kicking and doing quite well now.

[angrydurf]

This is why skills functioning in PvE and PvP the same is just plain bad. No one wants tanks to have credible DPS because lets face it that is in fact unbalanced. If you have a character that is hard to kill it shouldn't be able to keep up in the damage department.

 

The issues are many. To start with, that tanks aren't all that hard to kill. The most common types of attacks and a significant portion of damage ignores most of our defenses. We have large HP pools and that's about it. Secondly a huge chunk of our skills have effects that basically only work in PvE (IE taunts, high threat). Those become all but useless in PvP despite the effort gone through to access them for PvE (Devotion of Talent points).

 

So basically what makes Tanks good in PvE doesn't work in PvP because we don't get most of our defenses and our offensive active abilities do very little. In the same way DPS and particularly healer classes outperform because their abilities do work well in PvP and PvE. Damage and healing is always useful and their survivability comes from CC rather than mitigation and CC is better in PvP than PvE in many cases.

 

So separate them. Don't make it all work the same and you can create balance in both spheres without breaking either.

 

Give tanks back their miti9gation in PvP and make them a credible threat not with damage but with utility. Give them buff/Debuff/CC abilities in PvP for the PvE threat abilities. CC is a credible threat in a group encounter but if tanks retain low damage they don't become overpowered as they still don't kill quickly, let them protect allies and nodes effectively with delaying tactics to allow Damage dealers to do what they do well and Tanks can be usefull without being overpowered.

[Draqsko]

This is why skills functioning in PvE and PvP the same is just plain bad. No one wants tanks to have credible DPS because lets face it that is in fact unbalanced. If you have a character that is hard to kill it shouldn't be able to keep up in the damage department.

 

The issues are many. To start with, that tanks aren't all that hard to kill. The most common types of attacks and a significant portion of damage ignores most of our defenses. We have large HP pools and that's about it. Secondly a huge chunk of our skills have effects that basically only work in PvE (IE taunts, high threat). Those become all but useless in PvP despite the effort gone through to access them for PvE (Devotion of Talent points).

 

So basically what makes Tanks good in PvE doesn't work in PvP because we don't get most of our defenses and our offensive active abilities do very little. In the same way DPS and particularly healer classes outperform because their abilities do work well in PvP and PvE. Damage and healing is always useful and their survivability comes from CC rather than mitigation and CC is better in PvP than PvE in many cases.

 

So separate them. Don't make it all work the same and you can create balance in both spheres without breaking either.

 

Give tanks back their miti9gation in PvP and make them a credible threat not with damage but with utility. Give them buff/Debuff/CC abilities in PvP for the PvE threat abilities. CC is a credible threat in a group encounter but if tanks retain low damage they don't become overpowered as they still don't kill quickly, let them protect allies and nodes effectively with delaying tactics to allow Damage dealers to do what they do well and Tanks can be usefull without being overpowered.

 

you do realize taunts work in PVP too right? 30% damage debuff if they don't attack you.. that's protecting a teammate, trust me..

 

Guardian tanks get.. Stasis for stun, Awe for AOE Mez, Guard, Taunt, Challenging Call, Freezing Force for slow, Saber Ward, Warding Call, Focused Defense, Enure, Force Leap, Push that resets Leap, Guardian Leap, Guard, 60% armor rating increase in Soresu (trust me, it does have some effect) 15% shield chance increase in Soresu.. I could go on but really..

 

Guardian tanks are useful, are not overpowered, have great utility and protection for others, and while defense specced got hurt bad in 1.3 for PVP, hybrid specs can get all of that plus better damage output through overhead slash instead of guardian slash. It's just not a class you can sit there and tank and spank in PVP, it requires good knowledge of the class and skill to play them.

[Fallerup]

And yet every other tank in the game has no problem at all dishing out damage. Just the Guardian. Sorry, I don't buy this BS argument. Damage means threat. Threat is in the tank's job description. Therefor, damage is in the tank's job description. Plain and simple. No damage, no threat. Little damage, little threat. Big damage, big threat. Not rocket science. Bad damage = bad tank.

 

they upped the threat on all the abilities so much, that threat generated from damage isn't an issue... want to generate large threat on a group of mobs? no problem, charge in, gather them up and smash... then hit them all, tabbing among the targets. Smash also puts armor debuff on all affected targets if you have "crushing fist" (4 stacks of armor reduction), meaning, if you tab around, hitting each one with sunder armor, you have 5 on each target, making your crushing blow take full effect.

 

I really wanna see if this is not the case. I haven't been in any Ops since 1.3 released, since we are all augmenting out gear and stuff, but I don't believe it is as bad as you claim until I see it. Threat shouldn't be a problem for any tank in 1.3. and if you cannot beat enrage timer because of lack of tank damage, your 4-8 dps suck.

[Rylarr]

I would like to just say goodbye to the Guardian Tank before 1.3 . We lose nearly 10-12% of total damage output for abilities I could have lived without. Goodbye 200k damage in PVP and goodbye to being a semi-good damage/tank hybrid!

 

Clearly you don't grasp the concept of a tank then, Your job is to taunt / guard and basically make it a pain in the *** for the other team to attack your's

[Fardarter]

Clearly you don't grasp the concept of a tank then, Your job is to taunt / guard and basically make it a pain in the *** for the other team to attack your's

 

The devs said when the game was coming out that tank damage would be within a few percent of a dps class. That clearly isnt the case by a longshot. I haven't read anything official why there was a shift in that. It wouldn't be as big a deal if you allowed players to have multiple specs but they dont.

[Draqsko]

The devs said when the game was coming out that tank damage would be within a few percent of a dps class. That clearly isnt the case by a longshot. I haven't read anything official why there was a shift in that. It wouldn't be as big a deal if you allowed players to have multiple specs but they dont.

 

They never said that, they said that a tank class (shadow, guardian, and vanguard) in DPS spec (which would make them a DPS really), would be within a few percent of a pure DPS class. A tank spec being within a few percent of a DPS spec would just be totally OP'd and no dev would ever say that they are going to make this and that spec be totally OP'd. If you want damage, you trade-in survivability, if you want survivability, you trade-in damage. I'll give you that Sents have both at the moment but I doubt it'll stay like that forever.

[SWEtree]

Anyone who played WAR knew this would happend. Bioware killed WAR because they made tanks very OP. A afk tank could win duels (im not joking) Bioware dont wanna make the same misstake again.