Briggs_Knightly Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Even though this is a crafting idea... the real impact of the changes to adrenals in 1.3 have the biggest impact in the PVP environment. As a result, I thought it best to post this thread where people interested in PVP would be able to read it. Comment if you like but don't troll or insult others for their beliefs. The problem with adrenals is that they cost the same components to manufacture as a stimulant. That makes the 15 second burst item cost the same to make as the 7200 second constant item. Which means that the biochemist who manufactures each one is going to charge the same price for each item. They are not being greedy or trying to control the market, they are just charging more than the cost of manufacture. Most consumers are not going to buy the adrenals when they cost so much and last so short of a time. That in turn make the predominate users of adrenals the biochemists who can create reusable ones. Which in turn forced everyone who PVPs a lot into taking Biochem for that simple advantage. It seems that Bioware is either incapable of understanding the real problem or incapable of adjusting the system for better balance. I appreciate the complexity of the problem and understand that this one skill has a larger than acceptable influence on the PVP environment. What I don't get is how they chose to simply toss the idea completely instead implementing a few of the multitude of ways they could have made it better. Even though this game has only been in existence a short time, it has become a trend that Bioware waits way too long to implement something that is obvious to users and then when they do react, it is a huge overreaction. Take the server mergers into account. They pissed off enough people by having low server population that many quit the game. Some for good. Now the combined server is so overpopulated that I have trouble selecting the vendor or item I want to interface with because there are so many people in the way. The fleet is so full that we now have lag where we never have before. I predict that some people now will get pissed because of overpopulation and quit the game. Everyone who PVPs know that PTs are OP (except for a few PTs who are clueless and apparently the people who work at Bioware). They have just about waited too long to correct the balance. I know of some people who got tired of getting burned so easily they already quit. After ranked WZs start, they will be forced to lower the damage output of PTs. That will then piss off many of the PTs and force some of them to quit. I know that I've rambled a bit so back to my point: I am not trying to save adrenals because I have Biochem. I am trying to save adrenals because it offers a tactical advantage when used properly. It adds complexity to the game and gives the skilled players an additional resource to manage. If this game gets too simple, it will become uninteresting. They also allow a weaker classes a chance against the stronger ones. I know that PTs have an unfair advantage over me right now. If my adrenal (and relic) are available to me but spent by him, I still have a chance. Without these added options, a good PT will always leverage his continuous advantage against me and beat me. I understand that they are trying to limit burst damage through this elimination. But taking burst away from all classes does nothing for balance. It just limits available options and actually helps those with the highest burst already. Even the small addition of some of the new PVP adrenals will not change these problems. Some of my solutions could include: Lower the cost of crafting adrenals - This would lower the cost that they are sold for and make them more widely used. If everyone has affordable access to them the advantage will average out. Make all adrenals multiuse - No one wants to spend the amount of money it costs for a single use 15 second item but it would be worth it if they got 6-10 uses out of it. Lower the use of player crafted items - By reducing them from infinite use to say 99 uses it makes the creation of these items more fair. You don't want to completely eliminate self created items or the Biochemists will use all their resources on their own supply and not sell on the market. Offer slightly less effective adrenals for a reasonable price - If your concern is that Biochemists are unfairly profiting from this resource than give people a choice of slightly weaker product for a fair price. Lower the effectiveness of adrenals - If they are too strong then find the level where they are tactically useful but not OP. Lower the stacking benefits - This is the huge one. Weaker classes need the benefit of burst damage offered by these adrenals. If offensive classes don't get much benefit from a power/crit adrenal, they can benefit from a defensive one thereby balancing things out when used simultaneously. More shared timers - The complaint I hear most for these changes is that burst damage is too high for some classes. If the crit bonus that some classes have shered a timer with the crit adrenal and relic... the overall burst would be limited. These classes would still have the option of using defensive adrenals/relics. I costantly here offensive classes complain that it you reduce their damage output you have to give them some defensive skill. Right now most of these classes use offensive adrenals/relics because they get so much benefit from them that they kill people so fast. If they had limited benefit from adrenals... the smart ones would change to defensive adrenals and <presto> now they have more survivability. And you didn't even have to award them some additional (special) skill. I have not had time to test the changes on the PTS so I may be getting ahead of myself here. It is just that the history of this game point to the next step as an overreaction. If anyone who has tested these new changes can alleviate my fears, please reply with some details. I will post most options when I get more time or when people offer up some good alternatives. I hope my thoughts make sense to you. But if not, don't flame us people who want the variety offered by these items... P.S. I use both an offensive and defensive relic and have offensive and defensive adrenals. Timing dictates which I use. Strategy is what makes PVP fun for me. Edited June 23, 2012 by Briggs_Knightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggs_Knightly Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 With 1.3 going live Tuesday... I was wondering if anyone who has tested these changes had anything to add to my comments??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Yeah. Basically, Bioware has no clue and we should go play Guild Wars 2. Google Guild Wars 2 area control guardian and watch the two youtube vids. Then tell me that game doesn't look infinitely better than SWTOR. If you don't like the competitive potential, google Guild Wars 2 colin johanson is it fun? and go to the original blog post. Then compare that design philosophy with what you see in TOR. Yeah, exactly. Screw Bioware's PvP team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brool Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Yeah. Basically, Bioware has no clue and we should go play Guild Wars 2. Google Guild Wars 2 area control guardian and watch the two youtube vids. Then tell me that game doesn't look infinitely better than SWTOR. If you don't like the competitive potential, google Guild Wars 2 colin johanson is it fun? and go to the original blog post. Then compare that design philosophy with what you see in TOR. Yeah, exactly. Screw Bioware's PvP team. Or I could just ignore gw2 like I ignored gw1. Some people like tor's pvp, some people dont. Everyones entitled to their own opinion, its part of what makes us human. I'd suggest you unsubscribe here, and head that way if you think its that much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBSIP Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 there will be no reusable version of the WZ adrenals being crafted by biochemists. all reuseables are being removed from the biochem crew skill's future additions, bioware has stated the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaace Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) As it stands, the biochem re-usable stuff sucks anyways... EV-HM drops a pattern that beats it out.... Leaving Biochem to be an alt skill, and be totally **** and useless. I mean, it was good.. before it got nerfed 3x because "it was not fair" Now expertise potions for warzones are being nerfed (only dmg reduction, no more 15% expertise) LETS NERF HEALING MORE. ps; buff marauders. Edited June 23, 2012 by spaace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Now expertise potions for warzones are being nerfed (only dmg reduction, no more 15% expertise) LETS NERF HEALING MORE. . Wait what? with the nerf of expertise adrenals, they are now exclusively a healer item. (well it benefits them considerably more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) But does that affect the spawning warzone buff too? Becomes pretty useless because of how far it is from fights. Edited June 23, 2012 by Daiyukie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabredance Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Catchy title . "How Bioware messed up XXX". That´s the way to start a meaningful and constructive discussion. Edited June 23, 2012 by Sabredance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixbomber Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Now the combined server is so overpopulated that I have trouble selecting the vendor or item I want to interface with because there are so many people in the way. The fleet is so full that we now have lag where we never have before. I predict that some people now will get pissed because of overpopulation and quit the game. Everyone who PVPs know that PTs are OP (except for a few PTs who are clueless and apparently the people who work at Bioware). They have just about waited too long to correct the balance. I know of some people who got tired of getting burned so easily they already quit. After ranked WZs start, they will be forced to lower the damage output of PTs. That will then piss off many of the PTs and force some of them to quit. I laughed pretty hard. Screw this overpopulation! I quit! I also have no issues with PTs however I play a team based game with people that have a clue. I won't assume the same for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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