Thoughts on GameSpy's Article on SWTOR

[thomasmeadows]

The original article from Nov is still accurate. The guild wars 2 article doesnt really say anything and is a pretty weak story that the author wrote. I've seen better articles written by high school kids about video games.

[Dezzi]

I never said it was. In fact, I'm extremely disappointed by the lack of consideration for SW:TOR's community (particularly with the recent server merges, as contradictory as that seems). But the same can be said for most MMOs. You seem to think that I'm some sort of SW:TOR fanboy. I am not. I simply hate biased, sensationalist "journalism" that pervades our shared hobby. I also have a growing distaste for the marketers in the industry - it is one thing to hype a feature, it is another to mislead the playerbase as to what form said feature will take.

 

And as a sidenote, I still /facepalm whenever I recall one of GW2's developers essentially claiming that they invented dryads, simply because their take on the species is young. There is so much bloody hype around this game and everything surrounding it, from the gameplay to the lore.

 

And it's all going to come crashing down.

 

Which is unfortunate, because the core experience is enjoyable. It just isn't what Arena.Net is hyping it up to be.

 

No, I don't think you're a fanboy.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[MasterKayote]

lol, anyone remember the pre-release TOR articles?

 

"Oh the dialogue brings a whole new dimension to MMOs. I really felt like I was part of the world I was in. Made my whole experience better because of it. I found myself caring about the decisions I make and sympathizing with the npc's! Unlike that other game!"

 

"Oh look at the combat. The fact that it has no auto-attack puts me in the heat of the action. Its so much more realistic too since the character actually parry blaster fire and clash lightsabers! Unlike that other game which just swings at the air."

 

"The companions in swtor really bring the interactivity to new depths. They almost feel like another player! They server as your characters moral compass, help you craft, as well as fight. They are more than pets! Unlike that other game!"

 

5 months after release? Oops!

 

Yeah, keep buying the hype.

Edited June 20, 2012 by MasterKayote

[Arkerus]

Well stated reprove, sir. Dove right through the facade and unmasked the intent in its entirety.

 

Thanks man. I am consistently amazed by what passes for journalism these days.

[Fox_McCloud]

The original article from Nov is still accurate. The guild wars 2 article doesnt really say anything and is a pretty weak story that the author wrote. I've seen better articles written by high school kids about video games.

 

Well they were accurate about the Nov article, perhaps they are also accurate about the comparison article. When I read it, I have to say, its spot on.

[Shingara]

Fair enough criticism, respectable honestly.

 

GW2 has shown however that they have a lot of functionality crammed into a few skills. They also organize it better. Instead of having bars all over your screen for abilities you need to only click on the night of a full moon when its raining and only if there is a red flower in front of you (exaggeration i know heh), they have a bar with 10 buttons.

 

Add to that a weapon swap that changes the first 5 buttons into another 5 new buttons. This translates to a controller well. Also instead of having three different melee attacks that all do damage, GW2 has weapon chains press 1 do the first strike, press 1 again and you get the second different kind of strike, press it again and get some special effect. Same as the three buttons but streamlined into one button.

 

It is really something you have to play to understand. I can say that there is enough variety, that leveling is not boring with "the same old skills". Also, most MMOs you have your basic set of skills early on. In WOW my mage had all the abilities i used by like 28 or so for the most part. But level cap was 60 heh,

 

As for the cash shop, when they announced that it pissed me right off, I immediately thought they were ruining a great game. However arena net has over a decade long history of running cash shop (GW1) and not letting it ever effect game play balance. They have stated that they take it very seriously and that unlike other games no in game power can be bought through the cash shop. Once I understood how it all works, it actually seems quite neat =)

 

The combat system you just described to me is the MXO combat system whilst fun it was infuriatingly limited.

 

Also GW was way way way way under the development costs of GW2, and with the cash shop you, I and everyone else knows to generate cash from them you create what people buy and the cash shops evolve from that. And the prices we see in the cash shop or price of buying gems and the xfer costs from gems to gold are going to change when live but by how much. Also what isnt in the cash shop now that will be.

 

The ability to buy karma buffs and experince buffs is troublesome, can they stack and is there going to be a better version of the karma buff purchasable. Yes they may drop in game and you can trade ingame gold for gems but like i said to make cash they cannot keep the conversion rates and drop rates they have for beta in live or they will never make any money.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Fox_McCloud]

lol, anyone remember the pre-release TOR articles?

 

"Oh the dialogue brings a whole new dimension to MMOs. I really felt like I was part of the world I was in. Made my whole experience better because of it. I found myself caring about the decisions I make and sympathizing with the npc's! Unlike that other game!"

 

"Oh look at the combat. The fact that it has no auto-attack puts me in the heat of the action. Its so much more realistic too since the character actually parry blaster fire and clash lightsabers! Unlike that other game which just swings at the air."

 

"The companions in swtor really bring the interactivity to new depths. They almost feel like another player! They server as your characters moral compass, help you craft, as well as fight. They are more than pets! Unlike that other game!"

 

5 months after release? Oops!

 

Yeah, keep buying the hype.

 

There is a massive difference that you are ignoring, perhaps to suit your own purposes.

 

The public has played GW2, several times, for long periods of time not just short demos and the general response is that the game is delivering on the promises, living up to the hype, and people cannot wait to get back in.

 

So yeah.. different situation I am affraid.

[CelCawdro]

lol, anyone remember the pre-release TOR articles?

 

"Oh the dialogue brings a whole new dimension to MMOs. I really felt like I was part of the world I was in. Made my whole experience better because of it. I found myself caring about the decisions I make and sympathizing with the npc's! Unlike that other game!"

 

"Oh look at the combat. The fact that it has no auto-attack puts me in the heat of the action. Its so much more realistic too since the character actually parry blaster fire and clash lightsabers! Unlike that other game which just swings at the air."

 

"The companions in swtor really bring the interactivity to new depths. They almost feel like another player! They server as your characters moral compass, help you craft, as well as fight. They are more than pets! Unlike that other game!"

 

5 months after release? Oops!

 

Yeah, keep buying the hype.

 

The funny is part is that none of the things you mention are a product of hype or being misled. All of that is there. And the perception of those features remains true for a lot of players. For SW:TOR, people were not misled by the developers themselves - they created their own bloated perceptions based on personal, and unrealistic (SW:G fanboys, anyone?) expectations.

 

If the hype about Guild Wars 2 was to be believed, content would have to be created in real-time as players experience it.

[Crash-X]

lol, anyone remember the pre-release TOR articles?

 

"Oh the dialogue brings a whole new dimension to MMOs. I really felt like I was part of the world I was in. Made my whole experience better because of it. I found myself caring about the decisions I make and sympathizing with the npc's! Unlike that other game!"

 

"Oh look at the combat. The fact that it has no auto-attack puts me in the heat of the action. Its so much more realistic too since the character actually parry blaster fire and clash lightsabers! Unlike that other game which just swings at the air."

 

"The companions in swtor really bring the interactivity to new depths. They almost feel like another player! They server as your characters moral compass, help you craft, as well as fight. They are more than pets! Unlike that other game!"

 

5 months after release? Oops!

 

Yeah, keep buying the hype.

 

Some of us do think this though.

 

For me the dialogue and voiced content DO make me care about the character. I think most of everyone likes the class quests....it's the other 'Fetch 10 X' that are annoying.

 

Combat is what I expected it to be. It's smooth for me though.

 

Also I do like the companions, it's something no other MMO has or will have and I do like what they have done with them but I think there is a lot more potential there that I hope they expand companion content. Having really hard to obtain companions is going to be cool. Hk-51, maybe a Yoda type companion, and who knows what else...

 

I think the point is I didn't buy into the hype, I didn't expect this to be a WOW killer. I expected a Themepark MMO based on Star wars made by Bioware...I got what I wanted.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Crash-X

[Siorac]

Fast paced action 'twitch' combat, dynamic events, etc.. is what people want, that's why Terra and even elder scrolls online are bringing that as well.

 

I find it very, very sad and disappointing that although there are hundreds and thousands of shooters on the market, many of them playable online, the shooter fans are still eager to destroy RPGs and turn them into twitchy action games.

 

I can only hope that some brave developers can resist this trend, it's a horrible one.

[Dezzi]

Some of us do think this though.

 

For me the dialogue and voiced content DO make me care about the character. I think most of everyone likes the class quests....it's the other 'Fetch 10 X' that are annoying.

 

Combat is what I expected it to be. It's smooth for me though.

 

Also I do like the companions, it's something no other MMO has or will have and I do like what they have done with them but I think there is a lot more potential there that I hope they expand companion content. Having really hard to obtain companions is going to be cool. Hk-51, maybe a Yoda type companion, and who knows what else...

 

I think the point is I didn't buy into the hype, I didn't expect this to be a WOW killer. I expected a Themepark MMO based on Star wars made by Bioware...I got what I wanted.

 

I guess if you set your standards low enough, nothing can fail to impress...

 

Kidding! I'm just being facetious.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Grimgold]

1. Definitely. The cut scenes in GW2 are jarring and uninspired, but I'm confident that the "Work in Progress" stamp above them means they're actively being looked at. That said, I'm not sure GW2 advertises itself as the next big story MMO beyond the fact that you can tailor your questions at character creation.

 

2. Why can't you and your team work together in GW2's WvW? I assume PvP doesn't appeal to you. Fair enough, but there are raid-like dungeons in GW2 that you can work together to complete. The difference is that GW2 doesn't reserve that gameplay solely for the end game crowd.

 

3. I'm not sure how you can disagree when BioWare themselves are saying the same thing.

 

4. No there is plenty of PvE to be had at "end game." Here, I think, ArenaNet needs to do a better job of explaining how they've done away with traditional end game. I know it's difficult to understand on the face of it, but when you see it--and play it--it makes much more sense.

 

5. Took them long enough...

 

The lack of story feels like a regression to the mean for me. I enjoyed the trooper story, in a way that transcends just enjoyable gameplay. The plot twist at the end of ord mantel made me look forward to hunting the traitors down, and the fight on the gauntlet super weapon where all of your companions join you in a shoot out with dozens of imperials was simply epic. In five years I won't be talking about how I rid a farm of cabbage thieves in GW2, but I'll still be talking about my surprise when gearbox strolled out in a freaking at-at.

 

So how about you give me the ten penny tour of the PvE endgame for GW2 since I've only played the weekends and haven't got that far.

[Dezzi]

The lack of story feels like a regression to the mean for me. I enjoyed the trooper story, in a way that transcends just enjoyable gameplay. The plot twist at the end of ord mantel made me look forward to hunting the traitors down, and the fight on the gauntlet super weapon where all of your companions join you in a shoot out with dozens of imperials was simply epic. In five years I won't be talking about how I rid a farm of cabbage thieves in GW2, but I'll still be talking about my surprise when gearbox strolled out in a freaking at-at.

 

So how about you give me the ten penny tour of the PvE endgame for GW2 since I've only played the weekends and haven't got that far.

 

I agree. The class quests in SWTOR are amazing--delicious, even. But that's where BioWare put all its eggs, so for that aspect of the game to be anything less than delicious would be inexcusable.

 

There is no "end game" in GW2. That's the point. When you get to 80, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going back and running dungeons all you want--the game will downscale your level to suit the challenge.

 

Want to go back to the starter area in GW2 and run the dynamic events there? Good news: you can! The game will scale you down to the appropriate level to provide a challenge. The same thing is true of the starter area dungeon (for humans it's in Beetletun).

 

Want to go back to Black Talon in SWTOR? Bad news: you can, but you'll get nothing out of it. The game doesn't incentivize repeatable content because there isn't any outside of the daily quest grinds, nor does it incentivize you going back to help fellow players level because they'll miss out on experience gain and you'll one-shot everything.

 

That's why SWTOR needs the tired end game experience found in old titles and GW2 doesn't.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Bloodstealer]

I disagree with the #1, I prefer SWTOR's way and really GW2 VO are horrible.

Yeah SWTOR VO is nice and brings something a little differnt to the game... for a short while before the space barring starts... lets be honest if BW didnt allow the space barring then there would of been a hell of alot more flaming about it on here for sure.. but thankfully even they saw that its life span was short in game.

GW2 VO isnt as polished I agree, but then again its not used in the same way.. its not the pivot around game like SWTOR has tried to makle it (and failed badly imo)

If the VO had proper consequence and attitude relevance then it would of been recieved much better but it doesn't except for a few facial ammendments... so imo VO in general has issues inside an MMO - Until it can be seamlessly integrated into the game and deliver real attitudal consequence.. its money better spent on more important areas of the game.

 

I disagree with the #2, the public events are confusing and playing alongside other people is not player interactions, it needs communication and organization and it doesn't happen in GW2.

Yes I think any MMO that wants community interaction needs communication and organization.. but I dont see this being any real issue in GW2 and I think this aspect will prove a hit for the game...whereas SWTOR is solo driven and does not encourage players to think that way.... you see any experienced MMO player will crave for something that is unexpected, whether it be a random encounter, a public event or a changing/challenging environment... SWTOR just doesnt provide for any of this not even a basic day night cycle. This is why the immersion is not there and the game feels devoid of any soul. The community issues are not just caused by the low server pops... even on buy servers now the planets still seem lifelless... mobs spawn in the same peghole, they have no scaling based on the grp or solo player, they are always there, always the same, the planets should feel daunting to eplore on your own for fear of something random occuring that is challenging.. instead you can walk thro them undetected (especially with stealth tons).... one way for any MMO to encourage community interaction is by way of its content and explorable areas.... but 1-49 fails in every sense. Even flashpoints and Heroics are just not worth the effort.. and those that do group then rage becasue someone took a Need roll on an item that the other person wanted.. so players wait till they can solo it if they really need anything out of it....

 

Endgame uses the challenge aspect of the game but by then players have become so used to solo play they dont remember how to group, or lack the motivation to grp.. and without a decent grping tool this problem has been allowed to escalate to the point its mainly organised guild runs that do anything.... PUG LFM's continue being spammed for hours even with the new transfered pops.. the community has been excouraged to ignore and lets face it grinding dalies takes its toll on any players resolve when end game becomes more about having the same gear as everyone else and replacing the credits its cost you to upgrade your gear to look and perform the same as everyone else....

 

I agree with the #3, it's a problem with TOR mentioned for a long time.

Yip

 

As for the #4, TOR has both. You can not participate in end-game content and level alts or if you want to, there's an end-game too. I didn't find something special in GW2 except there's no endgame at all.

GW2 concept is different granted.. but what may get added or unleashed may be differnt... SWTOR placed a risk factor in its game.. it encouraged the players to roll ALTS but with a VO sytem that begins to grow old all to quickly and a Legacy system that is nothing more than a credit sync and a F2P foundation waiting to be built on....

But yes SWTOR has some endgame.. or geargame depending on how you see it.. without the gear you wont be able to do certain tiers of the endgame.. so sologame turns into, grindgame turns into geargame to be able to sample endgame... I think GW2 read this scenario pretty well and perhaps thought of other ways to reatin its players as they reach upper echelons of the game... time will tell if its regarded positively or negatively.. except of course its predessor seemed to compete rather well and stood the test of time with a similar format in an MMO industry already moving through raiding cycles...so we will have to wait and see.

 

I disagree with the #5 and it's completely stupid to compare a game in beta without release date with what happen in a live game, of course, it changes faster for GW2, that always happen for every game when every system is finished, put together and tweaked.

 

What you mean to say that AN took the novel approach to get things finished before it launch is set... or maybe polished is a better word... and who knows if there are some added twists into the launch material as yet unseen maybe.. not unheard of for AN to add a twist and a suprise into the game.....

SWTOR on the other hand lauched with a slick massive server approach to reduce its chances of opening cracks.. except look what happened to the server pops as we became strung out and left to rot until the pops had dropped and continue to do so.... then again the games performance has been blighted since day one.. thinned out server pops helped cover that crack.. take a look at the latest patch.. another band aid appraoch to alleviate game performance... more instancing,more emptyness on planets.. forgive me for thinking we might be on a merry go round here...

So I think I prefer that a game releases with a polished set of mechaincs, features and content..... sad fact is that if an MMO chooses to lauch without that element of completeness it immediately starts to fire fight and fall behind... and its player base in this day an age is much less forgiving then it was 6+ yrs ago when the competion wasnt out their and it was a case of put up or shut up....today the choice is many and wide... and that's is just another reason why SWTOR is beginning to limp month by month (and yes I believe the F2P SWTOR era is n ot that far awaay because of it.

[Shingara]

I agree. The class quests in SWTOR are amazing--delicious, even. But that's where BioWare put all the eggs in the basket so for that aspect of the game to be anything less than delicious would be inexcusable.

 

There is no "end game" in GW2. That's the point. When you get to 80, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from going back and running dungeons all you want--the game will downscale your level to suit the challenge.

 

Want to go back to the starter area in GW2 and run the dynamic events there? Good news: you can! The game will scale you down to the appropriate level to provide a challenge. The same thing is true of the starter area dungeon (for humans it's in Beetletun).

 

Want to go back to Black Talon in SWTOR? Bad news: you can, but you'll get nothing out of it. The game doesn't incentivize repeatable content because there isn't any outside of the daily quest grinds, nor does it incentivize you going back to help fellow players level because they'll miss out on experience gain and you'll one-shot everything.

 

That's why SWTOR needs the tired end game experience found in old titles and GW2 doesn't.

 

At lvl 50 i can run all the old flashpoints, they have heroic modes that make them relevant, i can earn credits, social status and gear to either sell, break down or keep. The only reason i would want to go back to a starter area is to grab the datacrons and lore stuff or help a friend and 9/10 times i would raf them and create a new char todo it with them. Doing old areas does not equal endgame.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Kaisernick]

ok stoped reading after point 1, 100% disagree on that, the story is amazing and brings life into mmo's hell i loved the agent story so much i decided to delete him and reroll just to go through it again.

[Dezzi]

At lvl 50 i can run all the old flashpoints, they have heroic modes that make them relevant, i can earn credits, social status and gear to either sell, break down or keep. The only reason i would want to go back to a starter area is to grab the datacrons and lore stuff or help a friend and 9/10 times i would raf them and create a new char todo it with them.

 

Yes, but if you want to run those flashpoints with your friend who happens to be at-level for them, then what? You have to roll an alt to the appropriate level? Why?

 

GW2 cuts out that whole process and just scales you for the encounter--there are no hoops to jump through. In GW2 you wouldn't have to roll an alt to level with your lowbie friend, though I suppose you could if you wanted to.

 

It's an elegant solution to the problem.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[MrLeee]

The great thing about Guild Wars 2 is it's a Pay2Play game. I don't have to spend a dime to play ALL of Guild Wars 2.

 

 

I have been in both Beta Weekends for Guild Wars 2, I also still play SWTOR.

 

When GW2 comes out will I quit SWTOR, hell no (unless things get really bad)

But I will be playing BOTH GW2 AND SWTOR. Both good games in their own ways!! Though I wish BioWare have worked on SWTOR a little bit more because it is missing a lot of options MMO's should have these days!

 

(This is like the ole' CoD vs Battlefield argument). I like them both, I play them both. I don't need to pick a side!

[Shingara]

Yes, but if you want to run those flashpoints with your friend who happens to be at-level for them, then what? You have to roll an alt to the appropriate level? Why?

 

GW2 cuts out that whole process and just scales you for the encounter--there are no hoops to jump through. In GW2 you wouldn't have to roll an alt to level with your lowbie friend, though I suppose you could if you wanted to.

 

It's an elegant solution to the problem.

 

so whats the point of gear ?, its not that elegant really.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[MrLeee]

Yes, but if you want to run those flashpoints with your friend who happens to be at-level for them, then what? You have to roll an alt to the appropriate level? Why?

 

GW2 cuts out that whole process and just scales you for the encounter--there are no hoops to jump through. In GW2 you wouldn't have to roll an alt to level with your lowbie friend, though I suppose you could if you wanted to.

 

It's an elegant solution to the problem.

 

I love how they did this! I play with an low level friend and instead of getting crappy level 5 gear to drop I get MY level stuff!! Great system IMO!

[lordofdamornin]

Dynamic events were much-lauded in Rift, too. Early on, they were great. The Invasions, even better.

 

Have you been there lately?

 

I had this huge post planned, but I decided to trim it down to a few things that are fact:

 

Human beings are not very good at exponential thinking. This is why Rift looked so inventive and awesome early on, and why GW2 does now. Indeed, the story and combat animations in this game would fall into the same category, for some. Because human beings are not good at exponential thinking, people like Dezzi, and Fox (the OP), can't seem to see past the 2 month mark. They both probably fell for this same gig with Rift, ToR, and soon, GW2. That's not intended as a slam on you guys, it just means you are normal human beings.

 

Human beings like to establish routines. As a whole, we like having things run smoothly, without interruption, and in the time frame we want them to run in. Anyone see where this is going yet?...

 

Human beings do not like change. As a whole, we don't like it when things become different. Things like, not being able to vendor items because no one is fighting invasions, or other Random Events any more. Things like, no matter how they purportedly scale, my choice is now to go somewhere else, or deal with this thing that is now in my way.

 

Human beings like to set and achieve goals that take *just the right amount* of time and effort to accomplish.

 

MMO's that are developed with a subscription-based model, know these things are fact. They are not opinion, they are documented psychological fact.

 

Keep cheering for GW2 as this revolutionary *next coming.* It is neither revolutionary, nor will it be evolutionary.

 

The best thing GW2 has going for it is being F2P - so why not play it, if you can stomach the box price.

 

Oh, this thread was about an article - my bad. In that case, I'll just say that the article's writing style is strikingly similar to someone who has many posts in this thread. That is all of the commentary that I have for it.

 

Oh - and hello, Wutru. You did get in before I called anyone a sheep.

 

Riôt

[CelCawdro]

Yes, but if you want to run those flashpoints with your friend who happens to be at-level for them, then what? You have to roll an alt to the appropriate level? Why?

 

GW2 cuts out that whole process and just scales you for the encounter--there are no hoops to jump through. In GW2 you wouldn't have to roll an alt to level with your lowbie friend, though I suppose you could if you wanted to.

 

It's an elegant solution to the problem.

 

But not a new one. If I recall, City of Heroes was the first to do this.

 

Essentially, I have a problem with comparing a game to another in the genre instead of the genre as a whole. SW:TOR does things better than GW2. GW2 does things better than SW:TOR. It is asinine to dispute that - almost as asinine as it is for "journalists" to go out of their way to state one-half of the argument for the sake of hits.

[Liquidacid]

why do people care so much about these articles and reviews... all they are is one D-bag game players opinion... in reality most of the people who are of decent age and are gamers have all the same qualifications as he/she does...

 

which is why the only game review I watch is Yahtzee ... because at least he is entertaining when he delivers his biased opinion

Edited June 20, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Arkerus]

lol, anyone remember the pre-release TOR articles?

 

"Oh the dialogue brings a whole new dimension to MMOs. I really felt like I was part of the world I was in. Made my whole experience better because of it. I found myself caring about the decisions I make and sympathizing with the npc's! Unlike that other game!"

 

"Oh look at the combat. The fact that it has no auto-attack puts me in the heat of the action. Its so much more realistic too since the character actually parry blaster fire and clash lightsabers! Unlike that other game which just swings at the air."

 

"The companions in swtor really bring the interactivity to new depths. They almost feel like another player! They server as your characters moral compass, help you craft, as well as fight. They are more than pets! Unlike that other game!"

 

5 months after release? Oops!

 

Yeah, keep buying the hype.

 

All of which you just wrote still holds true in TOR today. None of that was made up. I love those parts of the game. In my opinion, those 3 things are still big selling points and they are what I love about this game. So, your point is moot, even if you had one.

[Dezzi]

so whats the point of gear ?, its not that elegant really.

 

I wasn't aware that gear had to have any point beyond appearance, though gear does provide customizable stat bonuses in GW2. That said, gear of your non-modified level drops in "lowbie" areas.

 

Extremely elegant solution.