Deception / Infiltration & Madness / Balance Sin / Shadows

[Dmasterr]

target, break-cc. cc. vanish, save cc for if they pop cc-breaker or when first wears off.

 

Call for help. Sins are nice counters to operative capping.

 

That was the point i was making, that op /sins are the only classes that can viable defend as 1 person.

[Sookster]

Anyone besides an oper, sin or merc shouldn't be solo guarding a node, if you're stealthed in a good place then the opponent has no target to sleep, and merc can drop stealth scan while standing at the node, can't sleep if you get destealthed. Edited June 18, 2012 by Sookster

[Boarg]

A couple of patches ago where you did not need to manually destealth to interact with objectives "everybody" could cc->cap.

 

Now, OMG 1 extra button to push, it is impossible!

 

If your reaction time is half your latency, you can use it every time with 100% success.

 

P.S. LoL @ clickers.

 

I don't click...keybind everything. You still have to get the sap out and then activate the turret, even without the manual destealth, which I already had in mind when discussing it earlier. There's still ALWAYS time to break the cap, even if it's just a fraction of a second and spamming an attack button as the sap runs out gets the job done every time. No one has ever been able to pull it off on me, not even once. It only works on bads, and if they're bad you can kill them anyway.

 

And my latency is ~60ms...no one has 30ms reaction time. If you think you do, you're dreaming.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Boarg

[Xinika]

Deception/Infiltration is actually remarkably powerful - certainly has significant issues with roots (and accuracy debuffs if applied early on), but its burst potential is the most significant of all 3 sin/shadow specs. Using blackout outside of stealth is how it maintains force for a battle that lasts longer than you might expect. Deception doesn't use as many abilities as the other specs - but nothing is deadlier in terms of burst damage than a deception assassin who holds onto a procced maul for ~8s before using it.

 

Deception is supposed to play like a glorified ops/scoundrel - and it does this well (nice stunlocks, great burst + sustained DPS, stealth dependant). Only thing I think deception needs (MUCH more than tankassin really) is the improvements to force speed (due to the fact that it is easily MORE melee-dependant than tankassin).

 

Stop playing against pugs, then come back and say that.

[Dmasterr]

..no one has 30ms reaction time. If you think you do, you're dreaming.

 

Apparently u never watched pro rogues in WoW, if you think that.

 

My reaction time is faster than 30ms, and i can predict my enemy with a very high degree of accuracy. (used to blind vanish, sap vanishes, etc )

 

GL becoming /outplaying a pro gamer if you don't practice enough.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Ahhmyface]

Big surprise, Dmaster up in here spreading his lies.

 

It is 100% not possible for a sin to cap a node solo because our CC is 2 seconds less than the operative one. The combination of CC, destealth, and node cap takes 1.5 seconds at minimum, regardless of player speed, leaving 6.5 seconds for the mez to expire, and 1.5 seconds for the enemy to smack you once it's done. That being said, the operative one is 10s, so it is 100% impossible to prevent a cap vs an operative as a class without vanish.

 

I've called him out repeatedly before, in multiple threads, and he continues to keep backpedaling to his "L2P" response. I'm sure he'll post a video demonstrating in this thread (he won't) to prove me wrong once and for all.

 

I'll weigh in on this discussion, being that I have been Deception since beta, and if I can toot my own horn for a second, probably the best deception assassin on my server. Ask people. /shrug

 

1. DPS is fine with all your tricks, but really bad when down. If you burn your relics/adrenal/recklessness and then you get CCed or kbed or taunted, you're essentially out of the game for 2 minutes, because without that stuff, your burst just isn't high enough to kill anybody with even a few defensive abilities up. Burst DPS in 1.3 will be horrendous, expect this class to get weaker.

2. Stealth itself sucks. I recently dropped the stealth level talents recently because it's far more useful to have lowered CD on force speed/shroud. It is extremely easy to spot a stealthed assassin, even with talents,with bounty hunter scans, and operatives and tanks have detection abilities. Our spike (opener) does <1k damage, and our CC isn't long enough to cap a node. Basically the only purpose for stealth is a tiny amount of regen, and for the odd strategic surprise. Add this to the fact that it is very difficult to restealth, and (3, coming up).

3. Vanish frigging sucks. The cooldown is way too long (even talented), the stealth it grants can still be popped in a variety of ways, it offers no DR or speed boost like the marauder version, and unless you have force shroud up (a key defensive ability you cannot afford to waste) it usually doesn't even work!

4. Force regen is the mechanic that keeps us bursty. If we had more force regen we would become a sustained DPS class. I have mixed feelings on which direction we should move. The fact that we are backloaded DPS instead of frontloaded makes it easy for people to avoid our damage, something Operatives constantly fail to appreciate when comparing the classes.

 

All in all I think we are a solid class. I would like to see improved stealth mechanics/abilities, but my major fear is the nerfs in 1.3.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Boarg]

Apparently u never watched pro rogues in WoW, if you think that.

 

My reaction time is faster than 30ms, and i can predict my enemy with a very high degree of accuracy. (used to blind vanish, sap vanishes, etc )

 

GL becoming /outplaying a pro gamer if you don't practice enough.

 

LOLOLOLOL

 

30ms is 0.03 seconds. Your keys and buttons can't even be physically pushed down that fast by a human finger resting on the button, let alone in response to your brain processing input and reaching the decision to push the button first.

 

Uber-pro players are in the 150ms-300ms range at best, and that's normally acting purely out of anticipation.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

[Dmasterr]

Big surprise, Dmaster up in here spreading his lies.

 

It is 100% not possible for a sin to cap a node solo because our CC is 2 seconds less than the operative one. The combination of CC, destealth, and node cap takes 1.5 seconds at minimum, regardless of player speed, leaving 6.5 seconds for the mez to expire, and 1.5 seconds for the enemy to smack you once it's done. That being said, the operative one is 10s, so it is 100% impossible to prevent a cap vs an operative as a class without vanish.

 

Capping objectives is 8 seconds. (nova coast excluded)

 

Sleep dart =8 seconds

Mind trap =8 seconds

Blind =8 seconds

Whirlwind =8 seconds

 

All of the above can be used to cc-cap.

 

De-stealthing does not trigger nor is affected by GCD.

Interracting with objectives does not trigger nor is affected by GCD.

 

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your post, where you pretty much advertise your poor understanding of pvp and game mechanics.

 

I think, you embarrassed yourself enough with the section i quoted, pointing out your limited knowledge regarding game mechanics.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Dmasterr]

LOLOLOLOL

 

30ms is 0.03 seconds. Your keys and buttons can't even be physically pushed down that fast by a human finger resting on the button, let alone in response to your brain processing input and reaching the decision to push the button first.

 

Uber-pro players are in the 150ms-300ms range at best, and that's normally acting purely out of anticipation.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

You left the second part out. Predicting the enemy together with reaction time, is faster than just reaction time. Go watch some pro Starcraft players.

[Ahhmyface]

Sleep dart =8 seconds

Mind trap =8 seconds

Blind =8 seconds

Whirlwind =8 seconds

 

All of the above can be used to cc-cap.

 

De-stealthing does not trigger nor is affected by GCD.

Interracting with objectives does not trigger nor is affected by GCD.

 

All of the above can be used to cc-cap.

 

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your post, where you pretty much advertise your poor understanding of pvp and game mechanics.

 

I think, you embarrassed yourself enough with the section i quoted, pointing out your limited knowledge regarding game mechanics.

 

Allow me to correct your poorly informed post.

 

Sleep dart = 10 seconds

 

Mind trap triggers GCD and destealth is affected by GCD.

 

edit: according to this post sleepdart was recently stealth-nerfed to be Mindtrap duration http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3963273 (fun fact: note how people say "no more dart cap")

Edited June 18, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Boarg]

You left the second part out. Predicting the enemy together with reaction time, is faster than just reaction time. Go watch some pro Starcraft players.

 

I have - not even a 12 year old Korean prodigy can do 30 ms outside of blind luck.

[Gidoru]

LOLOLOLOL

 

30ms is 0.03 seconds. Your keys and buttons can't even be physically pushed down that fast by a human finger resting on the button, let alone in response to your brain processing input and reaching the decision to push the button first.

 

Uber-pro players are in the 150ms-300ms range at best, and that's normally acting purely out of anticipation.

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

This.

 

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

 

30ms is not possible.

[Dmasterr]

And yet cc->cap happens, (they are both 8 seconds).

 

In wow, Blinding vanish happens , SWD: blind happens, sapping vanish happens... ETC ETC ETC. With a very high degree of consistency i might add (on top players).

 

All anomalies, right?

[maticlandarr]

Not anomalies. More like a combination of anticipation(aka gambling) and luck. Does that make it any less impressive? No. But dont lie and say its your ninja reflexes. Just be proud of your tactical skill at anticipating.

 

As for cc capping. Yeah never been cc capped on my gaurdian or PT, tho many have tried. Do i thi k a good op could cc cap me? Of course. Just most tor players dont even know what cc capping means lol

[Boarg]

And yet cc->cap happens, (they are both 8 seconds).

 

In wow, Blinding vanish happens , SWD: blind happens, sapping vanish happens... ETC ETC ETC. With a very high degree of consistency i might add (on top players).

 

All anomalies, right?

 

Yeah, and there's an easy explanation for that. Some people are bad. As for wow, there's game engine issues...people get sheeped with the spell reflect shield still sitting above their head. Some games are bad.

[kaya]

Darkness/Kinetic and Balance/Madness have 2 "hard stuns" (i.e. do not break on damage, insta-cast, but balance/madness specs can only use the 2s stun while stealthed) + 1 out-of-combat target/self-stealth required mez + one 3s activated mez (although balance/madness shadows/sins can spec this to become instant-cast and if broken on damage, cause a 2s stun - although having it talented is useful in a FEW situations, it is far too commonly used by noobs that cast it the moment an enemy gets the hutt-ball - resulting in full resolve for a 2s stun - let's not discuss how it works if you don't talent the ability for certain reasons...).

.

 

Balance has force lift - it interrupts heals ... if your in a postion where your trying to keep a healer getting a cast off solo it gets the job done, granted the resolve it generates makes it a poor use of the ability.

Force stun for every spec and a guildy playing inf uses vanish > ninja kick often. He says its great, i dont play the spec often enough to have an opinion (i enjoy the silly op spec, despite it being op).

I just think an 8 sec cd interrupt (6 talented) would probably be overkill for the spec with that many ... stuns is a bad choice of wording but you know what i mean obviously.

Not claiming they're the greatest spec at soloing healers ever.

[Gidoru]

And yet cc->cap happens, (they are both 8 seconds).

 

In wow, Blinding vanish happens , SWD: blind happens, sapping vanish happens... ETC ETC ETC. With a very high degree of consistency i might add (on top players).

 

All anomalies, right?

 

Is winning the lottery once using a particular number system an indication that your system can win you the lottery every time? Hardly.

Luck is a favor in everything.

 

Can someone pull of an amazing vanish in WoW? Certianly. Can they do it consistently, nope.

 

If you cant do it consistently it is not representative of some super human reflex ability its just a combination of anticipation and luck.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Gidoru

[Daiyukie]

Apparently u never watched pro rogues in WoW, if you think that.

 

My reaction time is faster than 30ms, and i can predict my enemy with a very high degree of accuracy. (used to blind vanish, sap vanishes, etc )

 

GL becoming /outplaying a pro gamer if you don't practice enough.

 

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

 

Post your result please.

[Tankqull]

5. Increase base force regen by 2 a second.

 

i´m on your side in all points but this one, its against the idea behind that class. i would suggest a skill in the higher area (invested points of 25+) of deception/infiltration tht adds 50-100 forcepoints. that way the frontload idea of that class would be keept but you are able to burst sth down without utter critluck as you are able te keep up the dmg a few more seconds.