disparity in abilities

[Veeius]

I have a trashily geared assassin. She has a green belt, two green relics, 1 green implant, 1 blue. She has a purple dress, with orange boots, hands, chest head, and weapon. Her offhand is a power generator despite being a tank.

 

I have a rakata geared juggernaut, the worst thing he has is a purple relic that came out of story mode KP, everything else is substantially better.

 

Guess which one can solo level appropriate h2's?

 

The jugg can't get past the first pull in an h2. He simply crumples.

 

The assasssin can complete many h2 by herself. Why? Because most of the time the assassin doesn't bother with trash. And when she does she has 1 actual cc, 1mez, and 1 stun (actually 2 stuns, but one of them I won't count because it's just a gcd. She also, when spec'd and she bothers with it, has a decent stream of self healing on top of what a healing companion can do.

 

The jugg has 1 short duration mez, and that's it. No stealth means if there's a pack of mobs between him and the objective, he has no choice but to take that pack on. There's no spec of juggernaut that has on demand hots that aren't baseline and have little or no cd.

 

I would like to know why there is such a disparity? Why does the assassin get both stealth AND an actual cc when the jugg gets neither? Why are juggs LESS durable against mobs (because they have almost no healing)?

 

Juggs are no more capable (and some would argue less capable, but that's a different argument) tanks in groups than assassins - and honestly, I'm ok with that. I wouldn't want juggs to be much better than any other tank.

 

But I don't understand why juggs don't even have cc, or even self heals with little or no cd. Why are juggs unable to do most level 50 h2's? There's not a single h2 on belsavis that my assassin can't EASILY do, and there's not a level 50 h2 on belsavis my jugg CAN do. The first pull (you know, the one my assassin just skips) in "Freeing the fallen" destorys my rakata clad >20k health jugg where my 14k health assassin skips it, skips the next one, skips the 3rd, then easily solo's the boss.

 

Again, I do NOT want juggs to be better tanks than tankasins or powertechs. I just want to be able to do what tankasins can do when soloing.

[Muskaan]

Reroll a Sin and then complain about how it is so much more easier to finish the class story as a Sorc over a Sin.

[Xiahoufig]

Different classes are different.

 

Every class has its weaknesses, like Mercs/Commandos have no hard interrupts, Juggs/Guardians have no hard CCs. One of the bonus series quests on Ilum made me want to put a fist through my monitor because of a pair of strong level healer mobs in the same pull.

[Oddzball]

Its because Juggs are the worst tank in the game, that's why.

 

If you remember, back at launch Juggs were so bad they had to make our SOLO quests EASIER!

 

Imagine that....

 

Welcome to my personal hell. 6 months now as a Jug tank.

[Galbatorrix]

It's a heroic man.. get a group and do it the way it's supposed to be done and it won't matter who's over powered and who isn't.

[Galbatorrix]

Its because Juggs are the worst tank in the game, that's why.

 

If you remember, back at launch Juggs were so bad they had to make our SOLO quests EASIER!

 

Imagine that....

 

Welcome to my personal hell. 6 months now as a Jug tank.

 

 

Well, in 1.3, they are giving you a smart AOE and more threat, so the tanking part will actually be a lot better for you. Npt sure about solo content though, as they're nerfing your DPS while tank specced.

[Oddzball]

It's a heroic man.. get a group and do it the way it's supposed to be done and it won't matter who's over powered and who isn't.

 

True man, but, its still so painfully obvious Juggs have been gimped since launch.

 

FACT: Our solo quests were to hard at mid range/end range levels for a LOT of people, so hard in fact that they HAD to make them easier, because people were being forced to find groups to finish their solo quests.

 

I DO agree, just get a group, but it doesn't change the fact that Juggs have always sucked compared to the other tanks.

[Oddzball]

Well, in 1.3, they are giving you a smart AOE and more threat, so the tanking part will actually be a lot better for you. Npt sure about solo content though, as they're nerfing your DPS while tank specced.

 

God DAMNI'T, would they stop nerfing damage? Imort specced Juggs suck bad as it IS with damage.

 

Seriously, who the HELL decides this crap?

[Hawk-Firestorm]

You'll be very happy to know in 1.3 they are getting nerf'd silly then.

[Razot]

Tell me about it! I wish i could bring my lvl 40 sin to HMs instead of my jugg... the lvl 40 sin would do a better job im sure vrs the rage timer bosses.

[Veeius]

Reroll a Sin and then complain about how it is so much more easier to finish the class story as a Sorc over a Sin.

 

I HAVE a sin. I have a very crappily geared sin, but I have a sin. And I'd have to say I can't imagine how it could have been easier to do the class story as a sorc than a sin - the last fight I never went below 90% health.

[Veeius]

Different classes are different.

 

I wouldn't want everything to be the same. But I do want some degree of parity. Why do sins get stealth AND a cc AND self healing with almost no cd at all when juggs get NONE of that. Why the hell play a crippled class?

 

Every class has its weaknesses, like Mercs/Commandos have no hard interrupts, Juggs/Guardians have no hard CCs. One of the bonus series quests on Ilum made me want to put a fist through my monitor because of a pair of strong level healer mobs in the same pull.

 

Still not answering the question. Why does 1 AC get a cc, stealth, and good self healing when another tank AC gets NONE of that. What do juggs get that make up for NOT having cc, stealth, and good self healing? We're not better at pvp (which is fine), we're not better at ops or flashpoints (which is fine). Why are we trash at soloing (which is NOT fine).

 

I get different classes are different. But that shouldn't be an excuse to allow one AC to have a plethora of what you need to be successful at soloing and another AC gets told "different classes are different, you got the poop end of the stick."

 

edited to add this thought:

 

To those saying "just get a group, lol" - juggs are STILL worse tanks in groups because of the same reason we suck at soloing. We don't have a cc, we don't have reasonable self healing, and if the healer has stealth, it doesn't matter, we STILL have to kill EVERY SINGLE MOB between the instance entrance and the objective. We don't have better dps, we aren't better at getting/keeping threat (though i wouldn't argue we're worse).

 

WHAT do juggs get in return for not having cc, decent self heals, and stealth? Leaping around isn't terribly useful when soloing. It's not terribly useful in groups. It's great in pvp - but then so is force speed (which removes all movement imparing effects, unlike leaps).

Edited June 15, 2012 by Veeius
additional thought

[xJACKTHERIPPERx]

gosh darnI'T, would they stop nerfing damage? Imort specced Juggs suck bad as it IS with damage.

 

Seriously, who the HELL decides this crap?

 

lol you're not supposed to DPS...youre a tank. And you're getting 100% extra threat, so the small dmg reduction they are giving you won't make a bit of difference.

[Oddzball]

lol you're not supposed to DPS...youre a tank. And you're getting 100% extra threat, so the small dmg reduction they are giving you won't make a bit of difference.

 

 

 

All the other Tanks do plenty of damage.

 

I didnt SAY I wanted to be a DPS, I said our damage sucked even for a tank. And ESPECIALLY when compared to the other tanks damage output.

[Veeius]

lol you're not supposed to DPS...youre a tank. And you're getting 100% extra threat, so the small dmg reduction they are giving you won't make a bit of difference.

 

 

There's "you're not dps" then there's "it's not worth your time to do dailies because you don't have sufficent dps."

 

Immortal juggs aren't in the second category yet, but I'm watching for 1.3 when our heaviest hitter is being nerfed.

[lordofdamornin]

There's "you're not dps" then there's "it's not worth your time to do dailies because you don't have sufficent dps."

 

Immortal juggs aren't in the second category yet, but I'm watching for 1.3 when our heaviest hitter is being nerfed.

 

The heroic dailies are designed to be done by 2, or more, players. Take away your Assassin's stealth and long CC (thus, bringing this parity you speak of between classes), and you aren't soloing anything that your Juggernaut can't. Since you aren't that good at the Juggernaut class (shown from the content of your many complaint posts), perhaps you wouldn't see this as the truth, but it is true, nonetheless. I have both, and I play both very well - both are capable of soloing the same heroic 2's, and both reach their *limits* in about the same place. I feel like I've said this same thing to you before...

 

I run primarily Immortal, and I can keep up with most dps when doing dailies. Not all, but most. Perhaps you don't have sufficient dps as Immortal, but I do.

 

Regarding abilities that actually matter, any disparity is minor, at best. You are asking for parity in abilities that don't *actually* matter. Being able to solo heroics (that are not designed to be solo'd, even though they can be), is not something that actually matters.

 

Riôt

[Veeius]

The thing that burns my *** up is - even when my sin has to do trash packs she's STILL better.

 

Lights out, my 14k health sin, who's only purple came from a flashpoint and doesn't even have a shield generator can cc one mob, then her and her healer companion can take on the rest.

 

My 20k jugg, in REALLY good tank gear DIES on the same pull after blowing every single tanking cd he has (my sin only used her bubble, and I'm not entirely sure she needed that).

 

Please explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever. Please tell me how I'm better in a flashpoint, how I'm better in pvp, how I'm better at any *********** content this game has to offer especially given that I'm at least 2 tiers better geared? I seriously believe that if I geared my sin up, she would be BETTER at main tanking ops than my jugg, hands down. Her dps is already VASTLY better, her durability seems near on par.

 

WHAT.... THE... ****?!?

[Crispious]

Mobility is the answer to your question.

 

The way mobility was addressed earlier in the thread shows why some people think Juggs are inferior tanks. You have to use your mobility appropriately in order to be on par with the other tank classes. If you don't consider mobility a huge benefit in PvE, you're doing it wrong.

 

Granted, mobility doesn't translate very well when discussing soloing content that was not meant to be solo'd, especially when pitted against stealth, but the game designers don't take soloing heroics into account when balancing classes. If they did, either everyone or nobody would have stealth. Therefore, I do not really see an issue with not being able to solo heroics with my Jugg. If I want the thrill of soloing something, I'll hop on my Sin.

 

We all have something we're good at and something we suck at. It is a little unbalanced in regards to the Sin, but not so much so that I feel gimped by playing a Jugg. I do just fine keeping on par with everyone else,

[Veeius]

The heroic dailies are designed to be done by 2, or more, players. Take away your Assassin's stealth and long CC (thus, bringing this parity you speak of between classes), and you aren't soloing anything that your Juggernaut can't.

 

....Which is EXACTLY my point. Why do they have stealth and cc? I'd be ok if they had stealth and we had cc, I'd be ok if we had stealth and they had cc, but we have neither, they have both.

 

Since you aren't that good at the Juggernaut class (shown from the content of your many complaint posts), perhaps you wouldn't see this as the truth, but it is true, nonetheless. I have both, and I play both very well - both are capable of soloing the same heroic 2's, and both reach their *limits* in about the same place. I feel like I've said this same thing to you before...

 

Ah, the "you have no skill" post. Ok, sure, ignore the fact that I can clear at least hard modes enough to get rakata gear. Ignore the fact that, honestly, there's not THAT much skill involved in cycling through your tank cds while going through your rotation.

 

It's easy enough to do h2's with my undergeared sin that even my own retarded lack of skills lack of reaction poor connection &c. &c. &c. can easily do it, and my overgeared jugg can not.

 

In other words, with all respect that is warranted (ie none), you're full of crap, sir. But even if you weren't, the disparity is so large, that my obviously unskilled hack self can easily do h2's. Answer that, sir. Either I'm a skilless cludge, but stealth + cc is so powerful that even an utter failtard like myself can do it as a sin OR, it is the fact that not having stealth and cc DOES matter. Either way, you're wrong. You're either wrong about being a hack (which I may well be) or you're wrong about the power of cc + stealth. Take your pick.

 

I run primarily Immortal, and I can keep up with most dps when doing dailies. Not all, but most. Perhaps you don't have sufficient dps as Immortal, but I do.

 

Also, you're a liar, or you've only seen astonishingly horrible dps. I'm pretty sure it's the former, given that I know of pretty much nobody who is saying that immortal jugg dps is on par with even other tanks, forget ACTUAL dps.

 

Regarding abilities that actually matter, any disparity is minor, at best. You are asking for parity in abilities that don't *actually* matter. Being able to solo heroics (that are not designed to be solo'd, even though they can be), is not something that actually matters.

 

LOL!!!!!!! Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that the ability to skip 3 or 4 trash packs is a "minor" disparity? Are you honestly going to try to tell me that cc'ing an elite so you only have to fight 1 elite and 2 strongs is "minor." yeah, ok, troll. Keep chattering.

[Veeius]

Mobility is the answer to your question.

 

The way mobility was addressed earlier in the thread shows why some people think Juggs are inferior tanks. You have to use your mobility appropriately in order to be on par with the other tank classes. If you don't consider mobility a huge benefit in PvE, you're doing it wrong.

 

That's a reasonable answer. There are some places in groups where I can see it helps, not just threat, but the reduced damage of intercede. That said, I wouldn't say it's a *huge* benefit in pve. Particularly given how often it's an extraordinarily bad idea to make a boss suddenly want to run away from where he is to where a dps or a healer is (because that's where the tank just went).

 

Outside of that though, your claiming that juggernaut mobility is actually way more important than I give it credit for - where all is charge & intercede THAT important in pve?

 

 

Also, one other thing - people tend to forget that force speed is REALLY REALLY good as well, talented it can even remove movement imparing effects - so I'd argue that in some circumstances jugg mobility is LESS than sin mobility. AND it doesn't require someone to stand where you want to go - though I admit it DOES require an actual path. What I would say is that juggs have a SLIGHT mobility advantage, but NOTHING like "having stealth" and "not having stealth."

 

Granted, mobility doesn't translate very well when discussing soloing content that was not meant to be solo'd, especially when pitted against stealth, but the game designers don't take soloing heroics into account when balancing classes. If they did, either everyone or nobody would have stealth. Therefore, I do not really see an issue with not being able to solo heroics with my Jugg. If I want the thrill of soloing something, I'll hop on my Sin.

 

But you're making my point. Why does one AC get decent self heals, stealth AND cc, and one ac get.... something that only makes us "on par" with other tanks in groups?

 

We all have something we're good at and something we suck at. It is a little unbalanced in regards to the Sin, but not so much so that I feel gimped by playing a Jugg. I do just fine keeping on par with everyone else,

 

Honestly, I can't really thing of a place where a jugg is even as good as a sin in most circumstances. Pretty much the ONLY thing I can think of is in ops, and then ONLY on bosses, we have next to no aoe threat. But even then I'd only say we were "as good." Honestly, I'm ok with only "as good." Against bosses. I wouldn't WANT one AC to be better than others in what is clearly the main reason for tanks to exist.

 

All I'm saying is that if we're only "as good" as other tanks in ops - why are they head and shoulders better in almost every other aspect of the game?

Edited June 15, 2012 by Veeius
bolding a point

[lordofdamornin]

I never said anything about your level of skill on your Assassin.

 

Having run everything in the game sans Lost Island, I can't recall any point in any Operation (or Flashpoint) where the Assassin's Stealth and CC would cause me to choose an Assassin tank over any other. That matters. Being more flexible with dailies...doesn't.

 

Of course, they must have been bad dps. Immortal dps is being nerfed though. Think about that.

 

Just for a second.

 

Riôt

[Dracosz]

For the past 2 weeks I've soloed the heroic 4 black hole dailies. Being able to solo heroics is something you can do as a juggernaut once you have gear. Sins just have an easier time off the get go since they can skip trash packs, otherwise, it's doable as any class except for a merc healer, really. Edited June 16, 2012 by Dracosz

[Veeius]

Having run everything in the game sans Lost Island, I can't recall any point in any Operation (or Flashpoint) where the Assassin's Stealth and CC would cause me to choose an Assassin tank over any other. That matters. Being more flexible with dailies...doesn't.

 

I get what you're saying. What I am saying is that sins are as good as juggs in ops. I wouldn't ask for one to be better than the other in ops. I don't agree that jugs are good as sins in flashpoints because in ops, you're going to have all the cc's you want, in flashpoints you may not, and sins provide a cc, juggs do not. When you over gear it like crazy, that's fine. when you don't, the extra cc makes a tremendous difference. And soloing sins are head & shoulders above juggs - I don't get why it's ok for that imbalance to exist, when there is no counterbalance whatsoever.

 

Of course, they must have been bad dps. Immortal dps is being nerfed though. Think about that.

 

I have, and I'm simply shocked. NOBODY I know of has claimed that immortal dps is even on par with other tank AC's. And my own experience is that my HORRIBLY geared assassin hits MASSIVELY harder than my jugg - and I know a lot less about how to dps as a tankasin than I do as a jugg. Is your contention that immortal jugg dps is GOOD compared to assassins?

[Crispious]

I don't get why it's ok for that imbalance to exist, when there is no counterbalance whatsoever.

 

This is the question you're not hearing the answer to. The people who have posted opposing views to your own are all saying it is okay for that imbalance to exist because it really doesn't matter.

 

I agree with your point that a Sin has more utility than a Jugg and there is not much to balance that out, but it's only in the fact that they can stealth. Juggs answer Sin's CC with mobility. Last I heard, Juggs are still answering the Sin's self heals with more hard damage reduction. The only real imbalance is in the stealth and, typically, a Sin will not be picked for a group over a Jugg simply becauseof their stealth.

 

Therefore, since Juggs not being able to solo content that was not meant to be solo'd as quickly as the Sin really doesn't matter to us and Sins not really having any abilities that get them picked for groups before us time and time again, this is a non-issue for us.

 

I'm not stating you are wrong in your assessment, simply that you are in the minority in this thread as someone who cares about this imbalance.

[Crispious]

Also, as far as damage goes, currently I do comparable damage to the other tank ACs using an Immortal/Vengeance hybrid spec.

 

However, with the changes coming in 1.3, it looks like I may have some complaints once the update drops.