Are random pug doomed to fail?

[Astarica]

One key thing about premade versus PUGs is that most premades at least know that you need your best player doing the 1on1 defense, since losing a key 1on1 defense usually costs the game in a map like Voidstar/Alderaan. Because premades presumably have a central authority, they will indeed have their best player doing the defending. Note that if they do not, this premade is probably no better than a PUG anyway, i.e. the premade that doesn't defend your natural in Alderraan is probably worse than a PUG.

 

For PUG there's two problems. First a lot of them might not even be aware that the 1on1 defense is what wins you game. But secondly, even if they know, who does it? This is an extremely hard task. Let's say you're a Pyrotech PT, usually considered as pretty overpowered. You join a PUG game and decided to show people how it's done by going to your natural to defend it. You're favorably matched against almost all classes in the game, except if the enemy attacks you, it's almost certainly going to be a Marauder or a Tankasin, the two classes that can reliably beat you. Often it'd be 2 of these 2 classes which make you look like a total gimp as you lose the node. Calling for help does no good whatsoever because 2 of these guys can kill you well before any help outside of visible range can arrive.

 

So in light of that there's no real incentive to volunteer because if you've any understanding of the game you'll know that you're just setting up yourself for failure. Even a Marauder or a Tankasin would have a very hard time beating 2 of the same classes, and even 1on1 against a mirror class is 50/50, which means you have 50% chance of losing the game for your team, while winning that fight certainly doesn't win you the game. This is too much pressure for the average guy to handle, so they just ignore it and hope someone else will do it. Most of the time, you actually end up with no one doing it.

[Pekish]

true it's easier to defend if you know the people but certain class can hold it long enough that if u are on voice chat u dont need the best

 

i wouldnt put my best dps defending a 1vs1 turret

 

if u have a shadow warrior tank spec put him in defence and u can be almost sure even if you dont know him and u are in voice chat that he will be able to handle it long enough obviously if 3 stealthed attach him they can chain stun him but in that case even ur strongest person even if u know exactly who is the best in 1vs1 doesnt make any difference.

[Astarica]

I dont agree well perhaps because i play on a RP server i tend to meet people that do always what they have been told

 

maturity check shouldnt be a factor to play a role in this discussion

 

the disparity we see between PUG and PREMADE is all about VOICE chat maturity play a 10% role at max gear a 30% role and comunication a 60%

I know geared sentinel in full WH augmented that still cannot defend a turret alone because their silly tunnel vision

 

If you're a visible class standing near the node you'll get stealthed capped by an Op every single time.

 

Communication is the least of your concerns here if you solo defended a node with a visible class.

[toni]

Yeah, the pre-mades are pretty bad, and it's a lot of them. I know tons of people are doing pre-mades because we always come up short even though it's tons of people queing. I like the ldea of pre-mades going against other pre-mades, it would really solve this problem, and I know it can be done. Some of the pre-mades are not really that good, and a lot of them get into pride fights, so they can be lured off objective very easily. On my vanguard I always pick on the top dps and usually have 3 or 4 people chasing me off into a corner somewhere, and they always fall for it. I call it the wounded rabbit technique, people will always go for the kill and chase you no matter what. Sometimes I do get smart people that will turn around. But if you're lucky you might even get their healer to follow them also. Just designate someone to be bait, they'll fall for for 90% of the time, they gotta get their badges, but the objective is to win.

[Astarica]

Yeah, the pre-mades are pretty bad, and it's a lot of them. I know tons of people are doing pre-mades because we always come up short even though it's tons of people queing. I like the ldea of pre-mades going against other pre-mades, it would really solve this problem, and I know it can be done. Some of the pre-mades are not really that good, and a lot of them get into pride fights, so they can be lured off objective very easily. On my vanguard I always pick on the top dps and usually have 3 or 4 people chasing me off into a corner somewhere, and they always fall for it. I call it the wounded rabbit technique, people will always go for the kill and chase you no matter what. Sometimes I do get smart people that will turn around. But if you're lucky you might even get their healer to follow them also. Just designate someone to be bait, they'll fall for for 90% of the time, they gotta get their badges, but the objective is to win.

 

In most premade there's almost always the '1on1 specialist' guy who never backs down from a fight and won't stop until you're dead, especially if you managed to kill him before.

 

Back when Huttball was played 80% of the time, you can simply walk to the side area outside of your own pit and then start walking backwards and see 3 Marauders come out of nowhere trying to kill you in an area that has basically no strategic importance at all, thus giving you a considerable advantage elsewhere.

 

Less common but equally exploitable is the 'only girl on team' character. Attacking this character will get 3 other people in the premade to immediately abandon whatever they're doing to kill you.

[SweetOldBob]

Not exactly on topic, but for me one of the real joys of a pug is when you play with a bunch of folks who know what to do. E.g., as one player starts to plant a bomb on a door, you and a bunch of teammates fan out to block.

 

It's a drag to get stomped by a premade, and other than joining your own premade, I don't know what the cure would be. But pugs are sometimes fun.

[Lymain]

Some of my guildies who were queuing together were complaining about losing to certain opposing guild last night. Before they had even finished whining, I solo queued against those same players, and we had them 3-capped in Alderaan. My next game was a Voidstar against them, and we won again! I only had two players who shared a guild tag on my team in each game (so not complete pugs, but not real premades either).

 

Pugs seem do fine if they are skilled, geared, and have good class composition. Pre-mades have more control over those factors, but if they're lacking in any/all of those areas, they're going to have problems.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lymain

[Astarica]

Some of my guildies who were queuing together were complaining about losing to certain opposing guild last night. Before they had even finished whining, I solo queued against those same players, and we had them 3-capped in Alderaan. My next game was a Voidstar against them, and we won again! I only had two players who shared a guild tag on my team in each game (so not complete pugs, but not real premades either).

 

Pugs seem do fine if they are skilled, geared, and have good class composition. Pre-mades have more control over those factors, but if they're lacking in any/all of those areas, they're going to have problems.

 

Since you can't do 8 man premades, you obviously can't control the other 4 guys no matter how good your 4 premade is, and given the revival in PvP population there are now plenty of inexplicably bad players who can easily undo any amount of effort you put into assembling the greatest 4 man group.

 

While premade obviously have only 4 slots to get these inexplicably bad players versus 7 (we'll assume any PUG's viewpoint is that he isn't inexplicably bad), that alone certainly isn't enough to protect the premade from the misfortune of being grouped up with 3 guys with 13K HP no expertise. It'll happen to them less often compared to PUG, but it'll still happen. Like you said sometimes you lose to the same premade 3 times in a row even when you thought you had a good team (or even a premade), and then you stomp them the next 3 games for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Yes, obviously there is going to be some #1 premade where this does not apply, but somebody's got to be #1, and given the server population right now, it's practically impossible for you to be matched against the same #1 team over and over.

[SirSensi]

Before they had even finished whining, I solo queued against those same players, and we had them 3-capped in Alderaan.

 

This didnt happen to be on The Harbinger in a Republic PUG did it?

[UGLYMRJ]

It looks like random pug is slowly dying a horrible death on all these mega-servers. More and more premades consolidate and decimate poor unorganized fellas.

 

You cannot ban premades as ppl should be allowed to play with their friends.

So basically it all boils down to random pugs sucking it up and admitting that their are thrown into games with no chance of winning?

 

This is why ranked WZ's come into play and probably why they made a point of bringing them out shortly after transfers. The pugs will have their WZ's and we will have ours.

[Lymain]

This didnt happen to be on The Harbinger in a Republic PUG did it?

 

I was on Ebon Hawk in an Imperial pug

[Xexx]

I like the challenge of PUG'ing. Lot's more fun. You also get the benefit of reading some pretty good rage posts when things are going really bad for your team. All-In-All it's usually very entertaining.

[Veniras]

[back on track]

 

Well, I've noticed one thing about premades vs PUGS after the transfers. It's counter-productive as PUG'ers now tend to quit the WZ's faster when being roflstomped due to easily gettting into another WZ. So basically the fights are getting short and boring when meeting a premade.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Veniras

[Astarica]

I like the challenge of PUG'ing. Lot's more fun. You also get the benefit of reading some pretty good rage posts when things are going really bad for your team. All-In-All it's usually very entertaining.

 

If you truly play the game for fun, you should always PUG in PvP. Never a dull moment, though not always in a pleasant way either.

[Astarica]

[back on track]

 

Well, I've noticed one thing about premades vs PUGS after the transfers. It's counter-productive as PUG'ers now tend to quit the WZ's faster when being roflstomped due to easily gettting into another WZ. So basically the fights are getting short and boring when meeting a premade.

 

Um no, that's been going on since the game is live as long as you've an active population. Having a "PUG" of the same 8 guys over and over on a nearly dead server is not really a PUG. These guys are probably more premade than any normal premade since they've the exact same 8 guys the whole time, so of course they don't quit.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Astarica

[Veniras]

Um no, that's been going on since the game is live as long as you've an active population. Having a "PUG" of the same 8 guys over and over on a nearly dead server is not really a PUG. These guys are probably more premade than any normal premade since they've the exact same 8 guys the whole time, so of course they don't quit.

 

You don't understand me. We have had a great influx on my destination-server and queues are way down. We have a lot of new PUG'ers, but also a lot more dedicated premade PVP-guilds. Now, as these PVP-guilds group together in 4-man premades - and they are usually better than the PUG's - a lot of the WZ have become boring due to roflstomp.

 

But because the queues are way down, ppl just quit the WZ when seeing the premade guild-tag or the playstyle shows that the PUG doesn't really stand a chance, hoping to get into a new WZ without a premade. So, the premade win by default. But it is a boring and short WZ.

[Astarica]

You don't understand me. We have had a great influx on my destination-server and queues are way down. We have a lot of new PUG'ers, but also a lot more dedicated premade PVP-guilds. Now, as these PVP-guilds group together in 4-man premades - and they are usually better than the PUG's - a lot of the WZ have become boring due to roflstomp.

 

But because the queues are way down, ppl just quit the WZ when seeing the premade guild-tag or the playstyle shows that the PUG doesn't really stand a chance, hoping to get into a new WZ without a premade. So, the premade win by default. But it is a boring and short WZ.

 

People always did that even back on your old server if there was actually an active population there. It's absoultely nothing new.

[dcgregorya]

Maybe there'll be two queue systems. One for groupings and one for PUGs only. Here's to hoping.

 

But yeah. The current system is broken as it allows premades to decimate pugs.

 

I win when I solo queue and I win when I roll around in premades. I also lose both. If anything the match making system actually works pretty well when the server pops are so high. The games feel a lot less one sided.

Edited June 15, 2012 by dcgregorya

[denpic]

I run premades everyday we vs other premades all the time it's rare to vs a full pug group

In my opinion with premades vs premades a lot of wins come down to how good your 4 random pugs perform

A 4man premades isn't enough to completely roll another team

Unless its huttball or the opposing team is terribly bad

Edited June 15, 2012 by denpic

[Pekish]

other problem i think the system tend to favor 2 premade to group up then random player i could be wrong but if

13 people are in que

- 2 group of 4

- 1 gorup of 2

and 3 single 1+1+1

 

obviously the system will put togehter the 2 group of 4 more easily

 

so usually a premade get mix up with another premade and that make things worst most of the time

make a line in the code that in a similar case of premade first u match it with 4 pug then if there aren't the next smallest group and the PUG to fill up and you will see already a better balance

Edited June 16, 2012 by Pekish

[Astarica]

other problem i think the system tend to favor 2 premade to group up then random player i could be wrong but if

13 people are in que

- 2 group of 4

- 1 gorup of 2

and 3 single 1+1+1

 

obviously the system will put togehter the 2 group of 4 more easily

 

so usually a premade get mix up with another premade and that make things worst most of the time

make a line in the code that in a similar case of premade first u match it with 4 pug then if there aren't the next smallest group and the PUG to fill up and you will see already a better balance

 

I've seen absolutely no indicaiton the game prefers to put 2 groups of 4 together out of a pool of 8+ (for same side faction). If anything it looks like the game prefers to put the 2 groups of 4 on separate teams. I honestly can't recall the time I run into a game where the opposing side only has 2 guild tags which should be the case for 2 groups of 4. I don't mean it such an event has never happened, but it just isn't anything I can recall happening so if the game actually favors putting two groups of 4 together, it shouldn't be such a rare occurence. On the other hand I see plenty of cases where my side has a group of 4 premades and so does the other side for same faction WZ.

[Pahomi]

for me its a simple issue to solve....GET INA PREMADE...dont want to..then PUG AND DELA WITH IT...simple as that...why do mmos allways have this anti social awkward nerds that are against GROUPING in a game...how sad ur life must be geez....not even gona start on the ones crying for solo RATED queu...since thats the ultimate joke

 

Inconsiderate people like you is why we can't have nice things. As long as you're happy, to hell with everyone else, right?

 

A matchmaking system is needed for all queues. You can't pit people of vastly different skill levels against each other, it results in poor gameplay for both sides.

[SirSensi]

I was on Ebon Hawk in an Imperial pug

 

Ah, ok. Just funny that I read that and the exact same thing happened to me, in a PUG, on The Harbinger. We took East/West (snow/grass), had excellent communication, called out Inc's then a WH geared Sent took middle and we just tore the Imps apart.

-------------------------------

Regardless if in a Pre-Made optimized group, or a PUG, communication is key.

If your team doesn't come to aid you (or your team mates who are calling incs, etc) then they probably really do not care if they win or lose, which can be disheartening at times especially when you have your daily/weekly to finish.

 

But, for me, win or lose, I just move on to the next match. Regardless if I have met the weekly win requirements or not. And seeing as how the Daily doesnt require you to win anymore, just play/participate I highly doubt your average person really cares, it still accomplishes something and they can move on to the next match.

If they are inexplicably bad, then they probably are an opposing factioned alt who really could give a rats *** in hell since they are more than likely in Mumble/TS/Vent with their friends who are on the opposing side looking for a easy win.

[fungihoujo]

Look forward to ranked then, because finally premades will be separate from pugs in rated and you'll be able to get your WH gear without having to be stomped by the pvp guild on yo.....

 

 

Oh, nope, wait, sorry. I forgot that BW hates casuals and is hoping they all unsub in their next patch. That's right, premades will be getting fast WH gear- which they will then take into non-ranked where you'll be playing 200 hours of games to get the same gear against them.

 

Thank goodness casuals aren't getting a solo ranked queue as promised- the game will look a lot nicer once we lose another 400k subs

[TheGreatFrosty]

A lot of the reasoning and excuses behind random v premade comes down to this :

 

People want something to blame for their loss. Typically, randoms are bad players.

 

If they themselves were in a premade v another premade, then they'd blame their loss on a gear difference.

 

It wouldn't matter whether this were true or not, something must always be blamed, anything to masque the truth that they are simply poor players.