Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 So I transfered to Bastion today and a game in Alderaan highlights what I think is the problem. We had no premades and the enemy did. The premade capped 2 (side + middle), and then inexplicably they lost their side cannon. However, our side did not defend the canon we just captured. I and some other guy was fighting 2on5 on one of the side cannon before eventually losing it while 4 guys attacked the middle. The premade got their side cannon back and held it for the rest of the game. Premades aren't good, because otherwise they should never lose their side cannon to begin with, but they're also not bad. They know that they're supposed to try to take the side cannon back instead, while my PUG did not. This is a pretty consistent theme in all my PUG versus premade game. I don't really find the premade doing anything exceptional but you will never see them pull stuff like 'leave nobody to defend a node for no reason' whereas the PUG uses the empty net strategy all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satans_Puppet Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 If you hit 'enter' it opens up a chat box to which you can type secret messages to your non-premade friends If they're not listening type in their names and it'll beep for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 PuGs at the 1-49 bracket is generally bad, due to lack of experience mostly. However, things are a bit more interesting in the 50's bracket, as the quality of players differ drastically. Sometimes there are War Heroes and Conquerors who wouldn't be able to find their rear end with both their hands, and then other times there are players who have very accurate assessment of the current situation immediately jump into action to do what's needed without being told what needs to be done. The more you have from the former group, the worse your PvP goes, whereas in cases you get a lot of the latter, you don't need any text or voice chat - people can just take a quick split-second glance at what the teammate is doing, and then immediately figure out what you need to do - whether it be going long to receive the pass, giving a quick shot of guard, CCing the enemy nearby, supporting a focus-fire, etc etc.. Hence, PuGs are like the lottery. In many cases, they suck. In some cases, they trample premades... and those moments are simply golden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 When you control both side cannons you don't attack in Alderaan. That isn't about communication or strat or anything like that. If you played Alderaan for any period of time you SHOULD know side cannon = defend for the win. Now if the guy defended the wrong spot or just flat out sucked and die that's one thing, but you shouldn't ever be on the offensive with both side cannons. There's just no point. The difference between a premade and a PUG is that a premade won't be on the offensive (unless they're so good they think they can 3 cap) while a PUG inexplicably will be. By the way, even if you typed out instruction, it doesn't actually work. For example, in one game of Alderaan I saw a guy type: "2 to grass rest middle" and then everyone went to middle, so I went to grass instead of middle even though I was on a level 15 alt and probably shouldn't be solo defending anything. When I get attacked, I don't type out anything because if someone isn't in visible range, the enemy would be done capping before anybody get there and if someone is in visible range it should be obvious that the node is being attacked. You just don't leave a level 15 guy to solo guard a node, and yet in PUG this seems to be a perfectly normal strategy. In fact, it's also perfectly normal to find nobody defending a node too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 PuGs at the 1-49 bracket is generally bad, due to lack of experience mostly. However, things are a bit more interesting in the 50's bracket, as the quality of players differ drastically. Sometimes there are War Heroes and Conquerors who wouldn't be able to find their rear end with both their hands, and then other times there are players who have very accurate assessment of the current situation immediately jump into action to do what's needed without being told what needs to be done. The more you have from the former group, the worse your PvP goes, whereas in cases you get a lot of the latter, you don't need any text or voice chat - people can just take a quick split-second glance at what the teammate is doing, and then immediately figure out what you need to do - whether it be going long to receive the pass, giving a quick shot of guard, CCing the enemy nearby, supporting a focus-fire, etc etc.. Hence, PuGs are like the lottery. In many cases, they suck. In some cases, they trample premades... and those moments are simply golden. Sure, I understand that, but even a bad Premade isn't going to inexplicably do an empty net strategy. Like I said, the premade did lose their side cannon (a sign that they're not as good as they thought they are, because good groups never lose it) but they knew they're supposed to take it back, and when they had it back they knew they're supposed to defend it. This simple concept was apparently lost on my PUG, and I think that's what separates PUG and premades. Premades aren't necessarily better, but they do eliminate the inexplicably bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunda Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Funny thing about premades, they don't always try very hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 They need to separate the damn premades from the pugs, but bioware has this genius idea in 1.3 with allowing full 8 man teams to queue into normal warzones while they wait for a ranked pop...ya because ya know, it wasn't bad enough with 4 mans beating on full pug groups... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean_Parisot Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 PuGs at the 1-49 bracket is generally bad, due to lack of experience mostly. However, things are a bit more interesting in the 50's bracket, as the quality of players differ drastically. Sometimes there are War Heroes and Conquerors who wouldn't be able to find their rear end with both their hands, and then other times there are players who have very accurate assessment of the current situation immediately jump into action to do what's needed without being told what needs to be done. The more you have from the former group, the worse your PvP goes, whereas in cases you get a lot of the latter, you don't need any text or voice chat - people can just take a quick split-second glance at what the teammate is doing, and then immediately figure out what you need to do - whether it be going long to receive the pass, giving a quick shot of guard, CCing the enemy nearby, supporting a focus-fire, etc etc.. Hence, PuGs are like the lottery. In many cases, they suck. In some cases, they trample premades... and those moments are simply golden. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahhmyface Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Eliminating the inexplicably bad is the purpose of a premade. And no, it's not better at 50. Some people honestly just don't understand the game on a level that I personally have difficulty fathoming. I try to imagine their thought processes, but all I can come up with is "herp derp attack". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Eliminating the inexplicably bad is the purpose of a premade. And no, it's not better at 50. Some people honestly just don't understand the game on a level that I personally have difficulty fathoming. I try to imagine their thought processes, but all I can come up with is "herp derp attack". Sure, and I understand that's a powerful advantage, but I just don't agree with the fact that premades have any significant advantage for being good. Their strongest advantage is that they don't have the inexplicably bad. Statistically speaking, assuming none of the premades are inexplicably bad and neither are you (who faces the preamde), there's a 4/11 chance they'd get an inexplicably bad person versus 7/11 for you. This is pretty close to a 2 to 1 in favor of the premade of not getting the inexplicably bad guy, but that'd mean you should still win 1 out of 3 times if you assume having more inexplicably bad people determines who loses (which is as good an indicator as anything else). Put it this way, I never felt overwhelmed by any premade if I know there isn't any 'inexplicably bad' guys on our team. The premade may still outclass us in gear and whatnot but I can certainly put up a competitive fight with 7 other guys who are not inexplicably bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahhmyface Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Sure, and I understand that's a powerful advantage, but I just don't agree with the fact that premades have any significant advantage for being good. Their strongest advantage is that they don't have the inexplicably bad. Statistically speaking, assuming none of the premades are inexplicably bad and neither are you (who faces the preamde), there's a 4/11 chance they'd get an inexplicably bad person versus 7/11 for you. This is pretty close to a 2 to 1 in favor of the premade of not getting the inexplicably bad guy, but that'd mean you should still win 1 out of 3 times if you assume having more inexplicably bad people determines who loses (which is as good an indicator as anything else). Put it this way, I never felt overwhelmed by any premade if I know there isn't any 'inexplicably bad' guys on our team. The premade may still outclass us in gear and whatnot but I can certainly put up a competitive fight with 7 other guys who are not inexplicably bad. Disregarding group methods for a moment, 1 really bad player can flat out lose a warzone for you. 1 really good player can rarely, if ever, win a warzone for you. He can turn close calls into a win for your side, but he cannot create a win on his own. Not calling out incs as their node is capped, getting ninjaed, or sitting wide open for a huttball charge in the endzone will all straight up lose the warzone. The difference lies in the capability of the team to interfere. I can (at least as an assassin) literally nothing to prevent a bad from losing his node, without physically being present (and then it's my node). On the other side, a team can do anything it damn well pleases to stop me from winning the warzone. The truth of the matter is that swtor pvp matches aren't determined by how good you are, but rather by how bad you're not. Edited June 14, 2012 by Ahhmyface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Disregarding group methods for a moment, 1 really bad player can flat out lose a warzone for you. 1 really good player can rarely, if ever, win a warzone for you. He can turn close calls into a win for your side, but he cannot create a win on his own. Not calling out incs as their node is capped, getting ninjaed, or sitting wide open for a huttball charge in the endzone will all straight up lose the warzone. The difference lies in the capability of the team to interfere. I can (at least as an assassin) literally nothing to prevent a bad from losing his node, without physically being present (and then it's my node). On the other side, a team can do anything it damn well pleases to stop me from winning the warzone. The truth of the matter is that swtor pvp matches aren't determined by how good you are, but rather by how bad you're not. Take 4 of the best PvP players in the world and put them up with 4 inexplicably bad guys and this set of 8 will get utterly destroyed by 8 average guys. This is also why I find the people who claim premades never lose. At some point, bad luck will strike and pair your team up with multiple inexplicably bads and you will lose horribly. I have seen some very good premades that absolutely get destroyed when they get paired up with say the guy who conveniently stands in the best spot for the enemy to charge in Huttball. You just can't make up for that with skill. I don't like premades, but I don't think you can fault them because they are not inexplicably bad. I have more than my share of PUGing with the inexplicably bads, but I don't think it's fair to say everyone else have to suffer with the inexplicably bads. It's not the premades' fault that they want to avoid the inexplicably bads. In theory, if people actually know how to play the game, we shouldn't even have any inexplicably bads. Not saying some people will ever be good, but you can be a bad player and still know that you're supposed to defend a node instead of just wonder off and leave it completely unguarded. Even if you're a guy who loses any 1on1 with 100% certainty, the fact that you're at the node is often enough for me to get back there on time to save it, but I can't do that if you left the node completely unguarded. Edited June 14, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeSLX Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Funny thing about premades, they don't always try very hard. ^This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringcat Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Eliminating the inexplicably bad is the purpose of a premade. And no, it's not better at 50. Some people honestly just don't understand the game on a level that I personally have difficulty fathoming. I try to imagine their thought processes, but all I can come up with is "herp derp attack". This may be server-specific. On my old server (nostalgia wave), all the regular people you see in warzones are basically competent. Some are exceptionally capable, but everyone knows what to do and (usually) avoids stupid mistakes. Frankly, it was a small enough server before transfers that most of the time you basically were a premade, you'd played together through so many warzones and knew each others's strengths and weaknesses that well. (Admittedly without vent) -- this could be annoying in Imp v Imp matches, because in Imp v Imp matches, you teammates would know who to focus. Occasionally a fresh-50 who has never PvPed before would show up in PvE gear, but that's 10% or less of warzones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veniras Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Does it matter? Premades should not be able to meet PUGS, unless they both want it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 This may be server-specific. On my old server (nostalgia wave), all the regular people you see in warzones are basically competent. Some are exceptionally capable, but everyone knows what to do and (usually) avoids stupid mistakes. Frankly, it was a small enough server before transfers that most of the time you basically were a premade, you'd played together through so many warzones and knew each others's strengths and weaknesses that well. (Admittedly without vent) -- this could be annoying in Imp v Imp matches, because in Imp v Imp matches, you teammates would know who to focus. Occasionally a fresh-50 who has never PvPed before would show up in PvE gear, but that's 10% or less of warzones. On a low population server all the inexplicably bads have already left. After all, being inexplicably bad greatly increases your chance of losing any game you're in, so why would you stick around for long? The only way an inexplicably bad can win is if the enemy side has an inexplicably bad too, and you're only going to find multiple inexplicably bads on an active server. Prior to moving I can say my server has no inexplicable bads either. Losing 1on1 100% of the time is not inexplicably bad. Inexplicably bad is leaving the node unguarded so you can't even lose the 1on1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) So I transfered to Bastion today Awesome dude. We should team up and wreck some faces. Went 5-0 last night in WZs and only ran premade in two of the five. I thought the Pug peeps I played with did a pretty good job. By now, everyone knows what they should do in a WZ. But we are all human, premade or pug, and mistakes happen. I don't expect perfect play from anyone. I don't expect perfect builds, perfect gear. As a member of a team, all I expect is that peeps give it their best and don't quit. That usually achieves the desired outcome of a Win. Edit: Invitation goes out to others on the Forums as well on The Bastion. Would really enjoy playing with you guys in game. Please do give me a heads up in game. If I'm not already in a group, would be glad to team up with you. Edited June 14, 2012 by DarthOvertone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Awesome dude. We should team up and wreck some faces. Went 5-0 last night in WZs and only ran premade in two of the five. I thought the Pug peeps I played with did a pretty good job. By now, everyone knows what they should do in a WZ. But we are all human, premade or pug, and mistakes happen. I don't expect perfect play from anyone. I don't expect perfect builds, perfect gear. As a member of a team, all I expect is that peeps give it their best and don't quit. That usually achieves the desired outcome of a Win. Edit: Invitation goes out to others on the Forums as well on The Bastion. Would really enjoy playing with you guys in game. Please do give me a heads up in game. If I'm not already in a group, would be glad to team up with you. I have no problem if people are just bad. For example if a guy says he'll defend a node solo but he's going to lose a 1on1 100% of the time and his assessment of the situation is limited to "HELP", that's still workable with a good help defender. What's not workable is if your solo defender decides he is needed elsewhere and leave the node unguarded. You can't possibly cover that no matter how well you know the map. The Empire side does seem to have a bigger share of the inexplicably bads compared to Republics. Certainly I see more guys with 13K on my side than the Republic side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSensi Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) The thing that I think is being overlooked here, and as one guy pointed out (Ahhmyface?), is communication. I pug, 99% of my pvp matches and I do lose fights and matches, and a lot of that has to do with poor communication. Most of the time we have the Ops lead say (for example in CW) "2/4/2", or "2L rest mid". When we get to the ground, I take a second (if no one volunteered in the hangar) and see who goes left, if no one does, then I will. Now, if I even see a slight glimpse of a red name tag approaching my node, i call it out "x inc L" or "x inc grass". Most of, not all of, the time I will get back up. However there is occasions where NO BODY speaks, and those are the games that my team and I lose 100% of the time. Edited June 14, 2012 by SirSensi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayEmmKay Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 A decent premade a hard to beat... The premade you fought are obviously scrubs, you shouldnt judge all pre mades by 1 premade that sucked. Also wth is a PuG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeochins Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) I have seen some very good premades that absolutely get destroyed when they get paired up with say the guy who conveniently stands in the best spot for the enemy to charge in Huttball. You just can't make up for that with skill. . We've figured it out on DWC. Pull your team mate into the fire pit is the solution (assuming you chose to run with a sorcerer). Edited June 14, 2012 by Yeochins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 A decent premade a hard to beat... The premade you fought are obviously scrubs, you shouldnt judge all pre mades by 1 premade that sucked. Also wth is a PuG? PUG means pick up group but now a days its just referred to as queuing solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmericanNate Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Also on Bastion. Both of our Premades got a mixed bag last night. Mine went 11-2 and another one went 7-3. Our 2 losses were very close, and we made a huge comeback in a hutball match being down 4-1 until the last 3 mins and came back to win 5-4. Of our 2 losses, in one we were paired with another 4 man premade. I think the communication between our 2 groups was bad. I was guarding a node and not sure what exactly was transpiring at mid in one our CW loss. I'm guessing not enough focusing on the 3 healers they had and getting them burned down quickly enough. The other one was our 4 pugs not reacting to INC calls on Novare. But other than those 2, we seemed to get fairly smart pugs in the other matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATango Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Whether you're in a PuG or premade it comprises of 8 different players. Even in a premade when someone calls inc the response to it depends on the players in the premade. I used to run rateds in WoW so from experience I can say just because you run a premade doesn't mean they'll win. As a leader you have to spoon feed some players sometimes because in my example players are looking for someone else to do it and in most occasions if the leader doesn't ask someone to do it , it doesn't get done. A premade without communication and understanding of each other are in no better shape than a PuG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aehgo Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Premades aren't good?lol.Maybe the bad ones aren't good but a competitant premade on TS will destroy you. A good premade can win huttbal in under 2 minutes. A good premade will win a VS at the first door. A good premade will triple cap on Novare/Civil at some point during the game. The only time a good premade will lose is whe against another good premade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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