Opinions on the new Project animation?

[Miorum]

I thought they might've changed the Inquisitor's animation to pull it in line with slow-as-all-hell Project -- but instead I got this "..what just happened?" animation. I barely see what I just threw. Hate it. Absolutely hate it. I prefer the old animation despite the difficulties.

 

(also, Project and Telekinetic Throw should have their names reversed already. They make more sense that way.)

[Majspuffen]

At least one of us is providing facts. Its not zealotry, its called being a star wars fan that has actually watched a movie, remembers them, and can figure out the difference between jedi and sith. Try to up your game.

 

Ugh.

 

First, in response to your chatter about the graphic engine.

In Knights of the Old Republic, saber throw used the lightsaber for the animation. The lightsaber was already an animation in motion, so to speak. Everything in that game aside from creature models was static. I count speeders (in the mini-game, NOT the world) and droids into that category. Nothing else moved (feel free to contradict me on that one, try as I might I can't think of a single object aside from doors and backdrop that moved). The three lightsabers Kreia summoned were also simple models. While it certainly could be possible, it would have taken a lot of work for bioware to make it so that you could manipulate objects in knights of the old republic. Because everything was static. Immovable.

 

Besides, you are talking about TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT types of games. I never really got to play Dark Forces but I played Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast. Let's compare Force Grip from Jedi Outcast and Force Choke from Knights of the Old Republic. In Jedi Outcast, you could flail the npcs around in the air at your own leisure. Slam them in the walls, throw them off cliffs, you had full control. In Knights of the Old Republic, Force Choke caused the NPC to choke, but it didn't move. See my point? In Jedi Outcast you could grip an NPC and throw it into another. In Kotor, you couldn't. Because their engine did not support such freedom. And even if it did, how would the controls work? It would have been an entirely different game.

 

Now you could argue that they could've done exactly like they did in SWTOR, i.e ripping up an object from the ground and hurling it at the enemy. Sure, they could have. I'm not denying that. Why didn't they? How the hell am I supposed to know?

 

Yes, and those two abilities are THE SIGNATURE, IDENTIFYING abilities of the class that are impacted by double digit talents. They are central to the class. And they make the class a joke.

 

Is this a fact too? Or is this an opinion? Yes, they are the signature and identifying abilities of the class. Your point? They do exactly what they are supposed to do; they display the kinetic aspect of the force. Short of having an interactable world (such as in the force unleashed) this is the best they can do and they did it well, in my opinion. In your fact, they did not. You are entitled to your fact.

 

BW has shown they are clueless about a great number of things, and this is just another example. What BW thinks is that they could save money and time by having mirrors, which means jedi do EXACTLY what sith do, just with a different skin. That is where the problem starts. It continued when they settled on junk throwing as the reskinned theme of the class. It has been downhill from there.

 

Really? I think bioware has done an absolutely stellar job on the animations for all classes. Which animations you prefer is entirely down to personal facts. Sorry, personal preference*... Take me as an example, I preferred the Jedi Consular over the Inquisitor because of the iconic and identifying abilities of the class. As such I rolled a Jedi Consular and not an Inquisitor.

 

I had a chat with a guildee today about the scoundrels animations. We both agreed that the shotgun animations were awesome, but I was dissatisfied with the fistfighting animations. I said I couldn't take them seriously. My main being an operative, he said he preferred the smuggler animations and didn't like the knife animations, whereas I love the knife animations. People like different things. That doesn't mean we come on to these forums and spam our opinions as though they were facts.

 

But to humour you, if I was as zealous as you, I'd march into the smuggler forum demanding that they replace the fist fighting animations with something else because I think those are UTTERLY SILLY. You fight troopers in heavy armor, bounty hunters with flame throwers, sith and jedi with laserswords... and you fight them with your fists... really? But I understand that there are people out there who probably love the smugglers fistfighting animations. I respect their opinions, and I'll happily stick to my agent who has animations that I like.

 

Yes, what you say about the lore might be true, but Bioware decided that Consulars would use the Kinetic Aspect of the force. Dark side or light side, it doesn't matter. The kinetic power of the force is probably considered an universal power, just like force speed. If I understand the force, you do not draw upon your hatred to lift something telekinetically. Look at Vader when he hurls objects at Luke. Does he look angry? Or composed? I'd say the latter. And remember that Luke is his son. If he could knock him out by throwing an object at him, well... that would seem kinda merciful in comparison to cutting off his hand, which he did later.

 

What are we supposed to interpret from that? Vader had the upper hand the entire fight. If he wanted, Luke would have been dead. Just because he used the force to hurl objects at Luke doesn't make it an "evil" force power. It may have been a dark side power in dark forces, but mind trick was a light side power in Jedi Outcast. Yet, in Knights of the Old Republic Mind Trick was a universal power, a power you could use in order to persuade a couple of thugs on Nar Shaddaa to toss themselves down a pit. That's light side, am I right?

 

Stop acting like you know everything. Your facts are nothing but pure opinion.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Dyvim]

Ugh.

 

I agree, ugh.

 

First, in response to your chatter about the graphic engine.

In Knights of the Old Republic, saber throw used the lightsaber for the animation. The lightsaber was already an animation in motion, so to speak. Everything in that game aside from creature models was static. I count speeders (in the mini-game, NOT the world) and droids into that category. Nothing else moved (feel free to contradict me on that one, try as I might I can't think of a single object aside from doors and backdrop that moved). The three lightsabers Kreia summoned were also simple models. While it certainly could be possible, it would have taken a lot of work for bioware to make it so that you could manipulate objects in knights of the old republic. Because everything was static. Immovable.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about...no idea, whatsoever. They were 3D games with 3D engines with plenty of moveable objects. I gave you examples. You think they used a different engine for the speeder races? Do you know the first thing about programming? As long as its a 3d engine with moveable objects in it, that you can have junk tossing. Objects move because of some code execution, whether a player's actions are behind it or not doesnt matter. Now, different engines have different physics capabilities to model or simulate movement, but there is always movement. zomg...yeah, lightsaber hilts are simple models...so are the rocks and pebbles in this game. Nothing more simple than a rock or a pebble...

 

Besides, you are talking about TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT types of games. I never really got to play Dark Forces but I played Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast. Let's compare Force Grip from Jedi Outcast and Force Choke from Knights of the Old Republic. In Jedi Outcast, you could flail the npcs around in the air at your own leisure. Slam them in the walls, throw them off cliffs, you had full control. In Knights of the Old Republic, Force Choke caused the NPC to choke, but it didn't move. See my point? In Jedi Outcast you could grip an NPC and throw it into another. In Kotor, you couldn't. Because their engine did not support such freedom. And even if it did, how would the controls work? It would have been an entirely different game.

 

Actually, the games were very much alike. Again, you are just showing how uninformed you are. They both had basic level design, both used 3D engines. They were both essentially single player games, although JK had a rudimentary multiplayer option. They are very much alike. They had different engines, with different capabilities. But so what? You could throw objects in both games. PERIOD. So junk tossing was possible, technically, in both games, and was done in JK.

 

Now you could argue that they could've done exactly like they did in SWTOR, i.e ripping up an object from the ground and hurling it at the enemy. Sure, they could have. I'm not denying that. Why didn't they? How the hell am I supposed to know?

 

You don't, you dont know, at all. I am beginning to doubt you even played either game.

 

Is this a fact too? Or is this an opinion? Yes, they are the signature and identifying abilities of the class. Your point? They do exactly what they are supposed to do; they display the kinetic aspect of the force. Short of having an interactable world (such as in the force unleashed) this is the best they can do and they did it well, in my opinion. In your fact, they did not. You are entitled to your fact.

 

Except for my characterization of it being a joke, those are all facts. Problem here is people just can't seem to be honest. We have 12 hours of film that show us every sith throws junk, and they do it more than any other ranged attack. Those same twelve hours also show us that jedi almost never throw junk at someone. The only one to initiate junk throwing in 6 movies is Anakin. We see Luke use choke about as often. For people that arent star wars fans and cant figure out the difference between sith and jedi and the different skill sets they use...well, Im sure it doesnt matter and they dont care. I expect more from BW, just like I expected more from BW with endgame planets, open world pvp, etc.

 

Really? I think bioware has done an absolutely stellar job on the animations for all classes. Which animations you prefer is entirely down to personal facts. Sorry, personal preference*... Take me as an example, I preferred the Jedi Consular over the Inquisitor because of the iconic and identifying abilities of the class. As such I rolled a Jedi Consular and not an Inquisitor.

 

I agree, in general the cinematic combat looks good. But it really comes down to the look and feel of what to me is the most important class in the game...the jedi force user, the consular. And BW reduced them to junk tosser, a reskinned sith that does exactly what sith do, with junk instead of lightning. This is fact. How much it bothers you is subjective. That is is a clear departure from lore and virtually EVERY OTHER SINGLE OFFICIAL GAME is FACT.

 

I had a chat with a guildee today about the scoundrels animations. We both agreed that the shotgun animations were awesome, but I was dissatisfied with the fistfighting animations. I said I couldn't take them seriously. My main being an operative, he said he preferred the smuggler animations and didn't like the knife animations, whereas I love the knife animations. People like different things. That doesn't mean we come on to these forums and spam our opinions as though they were facts.

 

I still scratch my head about a shotgun for smugglers...but we saw Han use fists and pistol butts quite a bit. So, that doesnt really trouble me. They didnt redefine the essence of the smuggler to something else.

 

But to humour you, if I was as zealous as you, I'd march into the smuggler forum demanding that they replace the fist fighting animations with something else because I think those are UTTERLY SILLY. You fight troopers in heavy armor, bounty hunters with flame throwers, sith and jedi with laserswords... and you fight them with your fists... really? But I understand that there are people out there who probably love the smugglers fistfighting animations. I respect their opinions, and I'll happily stick to my agent who has animations that I like.

 

Its not because I simply dont like them. Fisticuffs have a basis with a smuggler class. But with consulars, their signature skillset in THIS game is something that their arch enemies do more than anything else. Think about that...in the previous kotors, the ranged jedi skills were based on force push, as they are in most games, which makes sense. We see jedi use that many many times.

 

Yes, what you say about the lore might be true, but Bioware decided that Consulars would use the Kinetic Aspect of the force. Dark side or light side, it doesn't matter. The kinetic power of the force is probably considered an universal power, just like force speed. If I understand the force, you do not draw upon your hatred to lift something telekinetically. Look at Vader when he hurls objects at Luke. Does he look angry? Or composed? I'd say the latter. And remember that Luke is his son. If he could knock him out by throwing an object at him, well... that would seem kinda merciful in comparison to cutting off his hand, which he did later.

 

Dark or Light side it doesn't matter? Really? Well to a star wars fan, at least this one, it matters VERY MUCH. Vader was not concerned with mercy. There is nothing more evil than wanting to turn your son evil, and him have harm others the way you have.

 

What are we supposed to interpret from that? Vader had the upper hand the entire fight. If he wanted, Luke would have been dead. Just because he used the force to hurl objects at Luke doesn't make it an "evil" force power. It may have been a dark side power in dark forces, but mind trick was a light side power in Jedi Outcast. Yet, in Knights of the Old Republic Mind Trick was a universal power, a power you could use in order to persuade a couple of thugs on Nar Shaddaa to toss themselves down a pit. That's light side, am I right?

 

Games have classified some powers differently. But junk throwing has only been classified as darkside when included at all. Never neutral and definitely not lightside. Throwing something at someone smacks of a temper tantrum, and jedi typically do not do it. Force push...pushin an aggressive enemy away from you, smacks of a defensive move. In 6 movies we never saw a jedi throw one rock or pebble with the force. As far as Vader. We saw Yoda train Luke with telekinesis to grow in the force and increase his ability to meditate and focus. Then we see Vader's darkside perversion of that skill, used to offensively harm others. That was the significance of junk throwing...the contrast with what we just saw Yoda teach Luke. The contrast between the light and the dark. Which is a big deal.

 

Stop acting like you know everything. Your facts are nothing but pure opinion.

 

Actually, no, they are facts. And apparently I have put considerably more thought and reason into this than you have, but if you take some time to think about it, you might come around...lol. Cheers.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Dyvim

[Artthen]

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[Majspuffen]

Actually, the games were very much alike. Again, you are just showing how uninformed you are. They both had basic level design, both used 3D engines. They were both essentially single player games, although JK had a rudimentary multiplayer option. They are very much alike. They had different engines, with different capabilities. But so what? You could throw objects in both games. PERIOD. So junk tossing was possible, technically, in both games, and was done in JK.

 

Jedi Outcast and Knights of the Old Republic were not alike at all. In Jedi Outcast you had full control. You decided when to swing the lightsaber, in which direction. You could jump over your enemies, manipulate them, toss them off cliffs, you had all the freedom in the world in that game. In Knights of the Old Republic you didn't. You queued up attacks and you couldn't push something off a cliff. If there ever was an opportunity to try I'm sure they'd be caught in an invisible wall. The movement is also completely different in both games. In KoToR you had a free camera and could rotate around your character, whereas in Jedi Outcast your character always moved with the camera.

 

Two. Completely. Different. Games. Perhaps it is you who has not played Knights of the Old Republic. Saying that Jedi Outcast and Knights of the Old Republic are similar games is like saying that Warcraft and Heroes of Might and Magic are similar games. Both have birds eye view perspective and they are both set in fantasy worlds. Yet the gameplay is vastly different, despite those similarities.

 

Except for my characterization of it being a joke, those are all facts. Problem here is people just can't seem to be honest. We have 12 hours of film that show us every sith throws junk, and they do it more than any other ranged attack. Those same twelve hours also show us that jedi almost never throw junk at someone. The only one to initiate junk throwing in 6 movies is Anakin. We see Luke use choke about as often. For people that arent star wars fans and cant figure out the difference between sith and jedi and the different skill sets they use...well, Im sure it doesnt matter and they dont care.

 

Where in the movies do we see Luke use Turbulence? Where in the movies do we see Obi-Wan use Force Quake? Where, in any other game, do we see a Force Power like "Force in Balanace"? Force in Balance isn't in any other game that I can remember. Should they change that?

 

Games have classified some powers differently. But junk throwing has only been classified as darkside when included at all. Never neutral and definitely not lightside. Throwing something at someone smacks of a temper tantrum, and jedi typically do not do it. Force push...pushin an aggressive enemy away from you, smacks of a defensive move. In 6 movies we never saw a jedi throw one rock or pebble with the force. As far as Vader. We saw Yoda train Luke with telekinesis to grow in the force and increase his ability to meditate and focus. Then we see Vader's darkside perversion of that skill, used to offensively harm others. That was the significance of junk throwing...the contrast with what we just saw Yoda teach Luke. The contrast between the light and the dark. Which is a big deal.

 

You paint it in its darkest light. Sure, Project can probably be used with hatred, no doubt, but I still think that it is relatively merciful to knock out an opponent by giving them a concussion, perhaps a few broken ribs or a broken arm. The alternative is cutting off one of their limbs, and how is that light side? A body can recover from a broken limb, but a severed limb requires surgery. And I suppose not everyone in the star wars universe can afford such surgery. Yet the Jedi had no qualms about severing peoples limbs,

.

 

I don't see how project is any more dark side than Force Push. Force Push can be used defensively, or offensively. You could push someone off a cliff, could push them into fire... heck, the list of evil things you could do with force push is only hindered by your imagination. Yet it is a universal power.

 

At the end of the day, the words of good ol' Kyle Katarn rings true: No force power is inherently good or evil; it's how you use them. And even later at the end of the day, Project is the signature move for Jedi Consulars (omg fact??) and jedi Consulars are built around the kinetic aspect of the force. Good or evil, they hurl rocks at their opponents.

 

Speaking of which though, what would you rate disturbance? Is that a light side or a dark side power of the force? I mean, for all intents and purposes, you use it in order to damage your opponent... how is that any less evil than force lightning, hmm? In fact, thinking about it I don't understand disturbance at all. Is it a gust of force? Is it like a kinetic blow? A wind..? Is it what Satele uses in the Hope trailer? No, disturbance doesn't knock people off their feet... and what follows that initial burst looks very much like telekinetic throw, if you think about it.

 

[Edit] I actually looked at the end of the trailer just now. First looks like force push, followed by telekinetic throw, followed by turbulence. I don't really see how throwing a rock at someone is more evil than crushing someone towards a mountain.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Dyvim]

Jedi Outcast and Knights of the Old Republic were not alike at all. In Jedi Outcast you had full control. You decided when to swing the lightsaber, in which direction. You could jump over your enemies, manipulate them, toss them off cliffs, you had all the freedom in the world in that game. In Knights of the Old Republic you didn't. You queued up attacks and you couldn't push something off a cliff. If there ever was an opportunity to try I'm sure they'd be caught in an invisible wall. The movement is also completely different in both games. In KoToR you had a free camera and could rotate around your character, whereas in Jedi Outcast your character always moved with the camera.

 

Two. Completely. Different. Games. Perhaps it is you who has not played Knights of the Old Republic. Saying that Jedi Outcast and Knights of the Old Republic are similar games is like saying that Warcraft and Heroes of Might and Magic are similar games. Both have birds eye view perspective and they are both set in fantasy worlds. Yet the gameplay is vastly different, despite those similarities.

 

 

 

Where in the movies do we see Luke use Turbulence? Where in the movies do we see Obi-Wan use Force Quake? Where, in any other game, do we see a Force Power like "Force in Balanace"? Force in Balance isn't in any other game that I can remember. Should they change that?

 

 

 

You paint it in its darkest light. Sure, Project can probably be used with hatred, no doubt, but I still think that it is relatively merciful to knock out an opponent by giving them a concussion, perhaps a few broken ribs or a broken arm. The alternative is cutting off one of their limbs, and how is that light side? A body can recover from a broken limb, but a severed limb requires surgery. And I suppose not everyone in the star wars universe can afford such surgery. Yet the Jedi had no qualms about severing peoples limbs,

.

 

I don't see how project is any more dark side than Force Push. Force Push can be used defensively, or offensively. You could push someone off a cliff, could push them into fire... heck, the list of evil things you could do with force push is only hindered by your imagination. Yet it is a universal power.

 

At the end of the day, the words of good ol' Kyle Katarn rings true: No force power is inherently good or evil; it's how you use them. And even later at the end of the day, Project is the signature move for Jedi Consulars (omg fact??) and jedi Consulars are built around the kinetic aspect of the force. Good or evil, they hurl rocks at their opponents.

 

Speaking of which though, what would you rate disturbance? Is that a light side or a dark side power of the force? I mean, for all intents and purposes, you use it in order to damage your opponent... how is that any less evil than force lightning, hmm? In fact, thinking about it I don't understand disturbance at all. Is it a gust of force? Is it like a kinetic blow? A wind..? Is it what Satele uses in the Hope trailer? No, disturbance doesn't knock people off their feet... and what follows that initial burst looks very much like telekinetic throw, if you think about it.

 

[Edit] I actually looked at the end of the trailer just now. First looks like force push, followed by telekinetic throw, followed by turbulence. I don't really see how throwing a rock at someone is more evil than crushing someone towards a mountain.

 

Wow, you just cant stay on track. So this is pointless. I was talking about JK, not outcast. You are the one that keeps trying to stray. And my point was simple, JK had junk throwing fifteen years ago. Kotor 1 and 2 did not. That point was made because other posters opined that we have no idea what jedi powers would look like in this time frame. That is not correct since kotor 1 and 2 show us plenty of powers, and none of them involve rocks, pebbles, or junk. Then you opined that there could be some technical issue with the 3d engine that prevented it. I destroyed that idea by pointing out it was indeed a 3d engine with moveable objects and throwable objects, like LS hilts and grenades. It is NOT THE SAME 3D engine as other games, like JK or outcast, and different 3D engines have different capabilities, duh. There is no further reason to have that discussion with you. You were wrong, your point was proven false.

 

AS far as various skills...junk tossing is a problem because it is the FOUNDATION of the class. The identifying skills. The hallmarks. BW has made jedi cons = junk. Period. Just like Inqs = lightning. Now, the force push concept, using the force to create pressure differentials and shockwaves, has many applications...like turbulence, or disturbance, or force push. They are all variations on a theme. And we dont see Sith use that theme MORE THAN ANY OTHER THEME, like we see SITH USE JUNK TOSSING MORE THAN ANY OTHER RANGED ATTACK. And yes, Force push is considered neutral...but it is one of the few powers, ranged powers, that isn't considered dark...like lightning, choke, and JUNK TOSSING. People still just cant seem to grasp that junk tossing is a traditional darkside skill and has been labeled as such...just like lightning, just like choke. And yes, inspite of that, we have seen jedi junk toss, just like we have seen jedi use choke and jedi shoot lightning. But those are the EXCEPTIONS, not the norm or the rule.

 

As far as what is more darkside or more lightside or more neutral....well, you could have endless debates, and there is not a point to them. Most people agree that lightning, force lightning, by its nature is inherently evil. Yet in the EU, we get jedi with green and yellow lightning...Sure you can do something evil with Force Push, like Maul did when he pushed Obi down that shaft on Naboo. You could even use rocks defensively, like in kinetic ward. Point is, we know what the movies showed us. We know that SITH like to throw junk. ALot of it. All of them. All the time. We know that jedi do not. We have seen it. We can count it. Just like in so many other things, many people dont bother to count and dont bother to pay attention. At the end of the day, jedi are more defensive in nature. That is not debatable. Sith are more aggressive. That is also not debatable. Junk throwing at a person falls closer to the aggressive end of that continuum than pushing, based on what we have been shown. It is SIMPLE logic. If junk throwing was pure neutral, or even slightly lightside, it would not be the SITHs favored ranged attack - because the SITH are AGGRESSIVE BY NATURE. Similarly, if junk throwing was on the defensive end of the continuum, we would see Jedi use it all the time. They dont. They use force push more. Again, simple logic, based on simple observation and simple counting.

 

As far as this discussion, or what it should be, about the new Project animation. It is better because it removes some delay. It is worse because it still uses junk tossing and does so in a slightly more ridicuolous fashion (You now magically conjure junk at a random spot new your enemy instead of at your feet). But that magic conjuring, where we are to assume that no matter WHERE YOU ARE AT, magically, there is some magical junk to be conjured and thrown, is completely ridiculous. It is laughable. It is simply not plausible, and requires a suspension of disbelief far beyond what is necessary for force users. Even if that force user was a Sith, which are the junk throwers. Then, it gets worse. Much of the time the junk conjured could not exist where you just conjured it from. Then it gets even worse. Each client rolls on the random junk table and shows the user a different piece of junk. So when you think you are throwing a rock, your opponent on his computer sees a droid scrap. The animation cheats and is poorly conceived and poorly implemented.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Dyvim

[strictnine]

It really seems like someone is redefining the definition of "fact" to mean any concept that is either supported by a theory or interpretation of available data. That is not a fact. A fact, a SOLID fact, does not need to be argued because it is can not be subject to misinterpretation. And just so we're clear, math can be used to support a fact, but when every part of the equation is based on interpretation, it stands on very shaky ground. Some in this thread clearly do not agree with the view that the movies are the end all be all of the star wars universe, and I agree with them. I would not look to the movies, which offer a mere glimpse of the star wars universe at best, to characterize the abilities of every Sith or Jedi that ever existed since the dawn of time. That would leave the universe extraordinarily limited and frankly, too predictable to even contemplate.

 

But this is all irrelevant anyway. This thread is about whether or not the ability is better or worse after the change. The debate over whether or not the ability fits into the context is an entirely different question, and I won't subject myself to it any longer. But feel free to beat that dead horse as long as you want.

Edited July 8, 2012 by strictnine

[MirrimFaranth]

It really seems like someone is redefining the definition of "fact" to mean any concept that is either supported by a theory or interpretation of available data. That is not a fact. A fact, a SOLID fact, does not need to be argued because it is can not be subject to misinterpretation. And just so we're clear, math can be used to support a fact, but when every part of the equation is based on interpretation, it stands on very shaky ground. Some in this thread clearly do not agree with the view that the movies are the end all be all of the star wars universe, and I agree with them. I would not look to the movies, which offer a mere glimpse of the star wars universe at best, to characterize the abilities of every Sith or Jedi that ever existed since the dawn of time. That would leave the universe extraordinarily limited and frankly, too predictable to even contemplate.

 

But this is all irrelevant anyway. This thread is about whether or not the ability is better or worse after the change. The debate over whether or not the ability fits into the context is an entirely different question, and I won't subject myself to it any longer. But feel free to beat that dead horse as long as you want.

 

The movies are the ultimate canon. Everyone accepts that, and if they do not, then they are mistaken. The ultimate canon, however, is not the same as the end all be all. Sure there is more lore in the EU. But the movies are the basis. They are the "tie breaker". More people have seen them, Lucas spent more time on them, and more money on them, than some book spit out in the EU.

 

In the movies, the sith throw junk more than anything else. That is a fact. Jedi rarely throw junk. That is a fact. We do know what skills jedi and sith used 4000 years before the movies...since we have the kotors. There are no rocks, pebbles or junk involved. Another fact.

[Majspuffen]

@Dyvim

 

You think that project has a lame animation and would rather see a new animation in the lines of disturbance, correct? I think that disturbance has a very poor animation that looks more like something we would see in World of Warcraft and not Star Wars. I can bet to you that anyone who sees the animation of Project, anyone, will draw a connection to Star Wars. Anyone who's even remotely knowledgeable about star wars, even if you hide the lightsaber and the jedi robes, anyone will think of star wars. Extremely few will think of if as a "dark side power", they'll simply think of it as "the force".

 

The same cannot be said for disturbance or turbulence.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Majspuffen

[MirrimFaranth]

@Dyvim

 

You think that project has a lame animation and would rather see a new animation in the lines of disturbance, correct? I think that disturbance has a very poor animation that looks more like something we would see in World of Warcraft and not Star Wars. I can bet to you that anyone who sees the animation of Project, anyone, will draw a connection to Star Wars. Anyone who's even remotely knowledgeable about star wars, even if you hide the lightsaber and the jedi robes, anyone will think of star wars. Extremely few will think of if as a "dark side power", they'll simply think of it as "the force".

 

The same cannot be said for disturbance or turbulence.

 

Junk throwing says sith to me as much as a red lightsaber or lightning...as it would to anyone else that has played the old jedi games and has watched the movies.

[Dyvim]

@Dyvim

 

You think that project has a lame animation and would rather see a new animation in the lines of disturbance, correct? I think that disturbance has a very poor animation that looks more like something we would see in World of Warcraft and not Star Wars. I can bet to you that anyone who sees the animation of Project, anyone, will draw a connection to Star Wars. Anyone who's even remotely knowledgeable about star wars, even if you hide the lightsaber and the jedi robes, anyone will think of star wars. Extremely few will think of if as a "dark side power", they'll simply think of it as "the force".

 

The same cannot be said for disturbance or turbulence.

 

I would rather see something based off of the Force Push concept or an advanced saber throw. I would be more than happy to take that bet. Jedi arent junk throwers, and they arent magical earth shamans that summon crap from the ground. Better still lets get a consular type on a starship or in a building and watch them summon up rocks out of deck plating and see what people think. There is nothing jedi about it. Nowhere in 6 movies did a jedi throw a rock at someone. Remember not Sith, JEDI. There are alot of people that just dont pay attention. Those are the ones that seem happy with junk.

[ScarletBlaze]

Project is just one form of Telekinesis as well as Force Pull, Force Throw, Saber Throw, and Force Push.

 

Telekinesis was a neutral ability that most Force-sensitives had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction. This ability was the base for Force Pull, Force Throw and Force Push, as well as telekinetic lightsaber combat techniques such as Saber Throw. It could be disputed that these are all the same power applied to different means.

 

A basic form of telekinesis is the ability using the Force that involved stretching out one's feelings through the Force to mentally seize a object in question, exerting one's will on it so that it performs as they wish. The Force power functioned on the theory that the Force reacts to a Force-user's strength of will, allowing a user to apply the Force with their mind to some other space or object (which could be argued for Project)

 

Any of the things everyone has stated whether project, saber throw, force push, force pull, etc is a form of telekinesis and therefore any jedi could have the ability to use it. Whether a jedi uses it or not is up to the jedi.

[MirrimFaranth]

Project is just one form of Telekinesis as well as Force Pull, Force Throw, Saber Throw, and Force Push.

 

Telekinesis was a neutral ability that most Force-sensitives had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction. This ability was the base for Force Pull, Force Throw and Force Push, as well as telekinetic lightsaber combat techniques such as Saber Throw. It could be disputed that these are all the same power applied to different means.

 

A basic form of telekinesis is the ability using the Force that involved stretching out one's feelings through the Force to mentally seize a object in question, exerting one's will on it so that it performs as they wish. The Force power functioned on the theory that the Force reacts to a Force-user's strength of will, allowing a user to apply the Force with their mind to some other space or object (which could be argued for Project)

 

Any of the things everyone has stated whether project, saber throw, force push, force pull, etc is a form of telekinesis and therefore any jedi could have the ability to use it. Whether a jedi uses it or not is up to the jedi.

 

Telekinesis is a huge umbrella. It contains dark and neutral skills. It contains choke and rend. Very dark. It is not just about neutral skills. Where junk throwing falls along that line is the question. It could well be dark as night, and probably is, given the sith proclivity for it. It is not just moving an object, it is throwing an object at a person. It is a very specific application of telekinesis. Don't forget that.

Edited July 9, 2012 by MirrimFaranth

[JediJayTrain]

Has there been any feedback from Bioware on the new Project animation?

 

From a PVP perspective, I like the change. The faster speed really catches opponents after they suffer a whole bunch of damage from my "invisible" DoTs. Then they look around for what's hitting them only to stare at one-to-two rocks smacking them in the face

 

From a PVE perspective, I feel like the move has been de-romanticized. The animation didn't suit PVP but it had a special place in the story and in flashpoints.

 

My suggestion for the PVE side is to make another end game ability depicting your character reaching up and launching a star destroyer equivalent AOE attack

 

Changing project for another ability though doesn't really sway me either way despite the numerous arguments. It serves a unique PVP and PVE experience and really I don't think that needs to be changed.

[GuruVII]

I would rather see something based off of the Force Push concept or an advanced saber throw. I would be more than happy to take that bet. Jedi arent junk throwers, and they arent magical earth shamans that summon crap from the ground. Better still lets get a consular type on a starship or in a building and watch them summon up rocks out of deck plating and see what people think. There is nothing jedi about it. Nowhere in 6 movies did a jedi throw a rock at someone. Remember not Sith, JEDI. There are alot of people that just dont pay attention. Those are the ones that seem happy with junk.

Still hang up on the movies I see. First I must once again note that no where in the movies do we see any indication of Jedi Consular in the shape and form as seen in TOR. Were I to watch Yoda I could in no way deduce that he is a Jedi Consular, since he fights like a knight and relies primarily on his lightsaber and uses the force to augment himself and as such basing things on the movies would mean the removal of the Jedi Consular class.

 

I really don't see how the lack of throwing can be used as proof for anything, except perhaps that they were facing a superior opponent.

Yes, if you look at the movies you will notice that the use of Force powers by the Jedi occurs only when the opponent they are using them against equal or inferior to them. I imagine that keeping up with them in lightsaber combat took up all the concentration. Working on that premise there were exactly three Jedi vs Sith fights where project could have been used, two of them included perhaps one of the most passive Jedi... Yoda who in his passivity in the end still did in fact use a project, the other is the Kenobi vs Vader fight on Mustafar, but there all we see is a single mutual push.

[ScarletBlaze]

Telekinesis is a huge umbrella. It contains dark and neutral skills. It contains choke and rend. Very dark. It is not just about neutral skills. Where junk throwing falls along that line is the question. It could well be dark as night, and probably is, given the sith proclivity for it. It is not just moving an object, it is throwing an object at a person. It is a very specific application of telekinesis. Don't forget that.

 

 

We have to remember whether it is a jedi or sith it is their intentions on how they will use an ability. We cannot always say a Jedi will use every ability they have for good. A jedi has also been known to lose his or her temper. When we start looking at the abilities and labeling them instead of looking at the intention of the Jedi or Sith and how they use something is where we go wrong. Any ability can be used wrong and it would be remiss of us to say that it can't. Force Push, Force Pull, project , etc. can be used wrong.

 

When we start lableing things as light and dark we go wrong.

Edited July 9, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Dyvim]

Still hang up on the movies I see. First I must once again note that no where in the movies do we see any indication of Jedi Consular in the shape and form as seen in TOR. Were I to watch Yoda I could in no way deduce that he is a Jedi Consular, since he fights like a knight and relies primarily on his lightsaber and uses the force to augment himself and as such basing things on the movies would mean the removal of the Jedi Consular class.

 

I really don't see how the lack of throwing can be used as proof for anything, except perhaps that they were facing a superior opponent.

Yes, if you look at the movies you will notice that the use of Force powers by the Jedi occurs only when the opponent they are using them against equal or inferior to them. I imagine that keeping up with them in lightsaber combat took up all the concentration. Working on that premise there were exactly three Jedi vs Sith fights where project could have been used, two of them included perhaps one of the most passive Jedi... Yoda who in his passivity in the end still did in fact use a project, the other is the Kenobi vs Vader fight on Mustafar, but there all we see is a single mutual push.

 

Again, this is not on the topic of this animation. But to briefly humor you, Yoda reflects using the force (v. Dooku and v. Sidious). Knights like Obi and Windu have to use their sabers, and are more reliant on saber combat. If anyone is the jedi opposite of sidious, the posterboy Inq, it is Yoda. If anyone, anywhere is a consular, he is. Yoda was superior to Dooku, yet Dooku had no problem throwing junk at him.

 

There wasnt a lack of throwing...the sith did it all the time, all of them. I'll state it again, and try to follow. Sith are more aggressive than jedi. Jedi are more defensive. Aggression is a Sith hallmark. So, what is the preferred, chosen, most used move by Sith? JUNK TOSSING. They do it more than ANYTHING ELSE. Now, if junk tossing wasn't darkside, or on the dark side of things, sith would not use it more than anything else. If junk tossing wasnt aggressive by its very nature, Sith wouldnt use it so much. It would go against their training, their code, and their very nature. Similarly, if junk tossing was defensive in nature, or EVEN on the defensive side of the scale, Jedi would use it. What we see jedi using is force push. Not junk tossing. Sith junk toss at least 5x more. Closer to an order of magnitude more. Common sense dictates that junk tossing is an aggressive move, one well suited to the agressive combat nature of the Sith. This is so obvious it shouldnt have to be stated...

 

And this goes to the problem of junk tossing as the signature move of jedi in this game. It is wrong from everything we are shown in the ultimate canon of the movies. I am not talking about it as some ancillary, occassionally used skill. IT IS THE HALLMARK. THE IDENTIFIER. The bread and butter. You cant take a Sith favored skill and make it the jedi signature skill and have it "feel" right to ANYONE with the SLIGHTEST clue.

[MirrimFaranth]

We have to remember whether it is a jedi or sith it is their intentions on how they will use an ability. We cannot always say a Jedi will use every ability they have for good. A jedi has also been known to lose his or her temper. When we start looking at the abilities and labeling them instead of looking at the intention of the Jedi or Sith and how they use something is where we go wrong. Any ability can be used wrong and it would be remiss of us to say that it can't. Force Push, Force Pull, project , etc. can be used wrong.

 

When we start lableing things as light and dark we go wrong.

 

lol, that makes me chuckle, because abilities have been labeled light and dark since the dawn of star wars games. You dont have to get to intent, because frequently actions speak for themselves. And skills like choking, rend and specifically lightning are patently darkside. As has been pointed out, Sith throw things more than they usechoke or lightning. So its stands to reason, since they are used by the angry Sith that they are similar in alignment and intent...typically the intent of the sith is going to be in line with their code, just like the intent of jedi will be aligned with their code. Not always, but typically. Makes sense, right?

Edited July 9, 2012 by MirrimFaranth

[ScarletBlaze]

lol, that makes me chuckle, because abilities have been labeled light and dark since the dawn of star wars games. You dont have to get to intent, because frequently actions speak for themselves. And skills like choking, rend and specifically lightning are patently darkside. As has been pointed out, Sith throw things more than they usechoke or lightning. So its stands to reason, since they are used by the angry Sith that they are similar in alignment and intent...typically the intent of the sith is going to be in line with their code, just like the intent of jedi will be aligned with their code. Not always, but typically. Makes sense, right?

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this as this can on forever because we both have our own separate views and I would not want to take this further off topic than it already has.

[JediJayTrain]

I saw a Jedi throwing junk in the opening cinematic...he died...I believe there is a message here but I'm really busy juggling pebbles:cool:

 

Any thoughts on the chucking-a-starship-on-an-opponent animation? I think chucking an X-Wing would look cooler than a rock but that's me just spit-ballin'

 

How about some more opinions on the actual animation in actual gameplay?

 

Gettin' kinda tired of replies to this thread not being about the animation and full of hypocrisy

[ScarletBlaze]

I saw a Jedi throwing junk in the opening cinematic...he died...I believe there is a message here but I'm really busy juggling pebbles:cool:

 

Any thoughts on the chucking-a-starship-on-an-opponent animation? I think chucking an X-Wing would look cooler than a rock but that's me just spit-ballin'

 

How about some more opinions on the actual animation in actual gameplay?

 

Gettin' kinda tired of replies to this thread not being about the animation and full of hypocrisy

 

From what I've seen it is fine to me. I like it.

 

And I apologize for my comments that were off topic.

[GuruVII]

Again, this is not on the topic of this animation. But to briefly humor you, Yoda reflects using the force (v. Dooku and v. Sidious). Knights like Obi and Windu have to use their sabers, and are more reliant on saber combat. If anyone is the jedi opposite of sidious, the posterboy Inq, it is Yoda. If anyone, anywhere is a consular, he is. Yoda was superior to Dooku, yet Dooku had no problem throwing junk at him.

Have to? Or did they use them because they already had them on in their hands, opposed to Yoda? There is nothing in the way Yoda fight that would make him a posterboy for the Consularm, if anything it makes him look like a really good Jedi knight, there is nothing in the movies that would in any way indicate the existence of the Jedi Consular.

 

As for Dooku being inferior... true but he wasn't in an intense lightsaber fight with Yoda when he used the force, was he?

 

 

There wasnt a lack of throwing...the sith did it all the time, all of them. I'll state it again, and try to follow. Sith are more aggressive than jedi. Jedi are more defensive. Aggression is a Sith hallmark. So, what is the preferred, chosen, most used move by Sith? JUNK TOSSING. They do it more than ANYTHING ELSE. Now, if junk tossing wasn't darkside, or on the dark side of things, sith would not use it more than anything else. If junk tossing wasnt aggressive by its very nature, Sith wouldnt use it so much. It would go against their training, their code, and their very nature. Similarly, if junk tossing was defensive in nature, or EVEN on the defensive side of the scale, Jedi would use it. What we see jedi using is force push. Not junk tossing. Sith junk toss at least 5x more. Closer to an order of magnitude more. Common sense dictates that junk tossing is an aggressive move, one well suited to the agressive combat nature of the Sith. This is so obvious it shouldnt have to be stated...

Yes there was a lack of throwing, on the Jedi side and you are using it as evidence that Jedi don't throw, yet we've seen them do it.

In the movies here were only three occurrences in the movies where Jedi fought and equal/inferior Sith opponent in which they would have used it anyway, two of them included Yoda, who is known for being quite passive and in the end still used force throw.

But I do like this line of argument, it furthers my point about the Jedi consular class as having no grounds for existence based on solely the movies.

 

 

 

And this goes to the problem of junk tossing as the signature move of Jedi in this game. It is wrong from everything we are shown in the ultimate canon of the movies. I am not talking about it as some ancillary, occasionally used skill. IT IS THE HALLMARK. THE IDENTIFIER. The bread and butter. You cant take a Sith favoured skill and make it the jedi signature skill and have it "feel" right to ANYONE with the SLIGHTEST clue.

No it isn't wrong, that is the whole point. In the movies there is no such things as a Jedi consular as seen in TOR. The class is made up, it goes against everything we know about the Jedi. But you seemingly have no problem with that, going as far as to argue that there is at least one Jedi Consular in the game.

But you do have a problem with the signature move being the strongest/most damaging force power we've seen any Jedi use in the movies.

Force throw is the only thing we've seen in the movies that could be considered comparable to force lighting and as such it only makes sense that it is the signature move of the consular.

 

 

And skills like choking, rend and specifically lightning are patently darkside.

And yet in the movies we see Luke Skywalker using force choke.

 

 

Oh, as for the animation. It is surprisingly good, when I first saw it I thought it looked silly, but now I like it.

Edited July 10, 2012 by GuruVII

[Dyvim]

Have to? Or did they use them because they already had them on in their hands, opposed to Yoda? There is nothing in the way Yoda fight that would make him a posterboy for the Consularm, if anything it makes him look like a really good Jedi knight, there is nothing in the movies that would in any way indicate the existence of the Jedi Consular.

 

So much fail, so easily pointed out...Most people will laugh at your assertion that Yoda isnt a consular type. Again, he was clearly the opposite of sidious, would you like to argue that sidious is a sith warrior and not an Inq? lol. lol. Really...lol. How well did Mace do reflecting or absorbing lightning after he lost a hand and a saber? Or did you forget about that, like you appear to forget about so many obvious things... Like I said...Windu = Knight, more or less, and Yoda = Consular.

 

As for Dooku being inferior... true but he wasn't in an intense lightsaber fight with Yoda when he used the force, was he?

 

Yes he was, Mr. I cant remember, At the end when he force crushed the base of that metal column he dropped on obi and anakin, he was VERY much in the midst of an intense fight. He used that move to get out of it. Your theory is complete crap. The obvious point is that jedi arent frequent junk throwers, sith are. Deal with it.

 

Yes there was a lack of throwing, on the Jedi side and you are using it as evidence that Jedi don't throw, yet we've seen them do it.

In the movies here were only three occurrences in the movies where Jedi fought and equal/inferior Sith opponent in which they would have used it anyway, two of them included Yoda, who is known for being quite passive and in the end still used force throw.

But I do like this line of argument, it furthers my point about the Jedi consular class as having no grounds for existence based on solely the movies.

 

Yeah, and we have seen them choke, too. Point is Sith use junk tossing more than anything else. Therefore, it must be an aggressive move closer to the dark side end of things, otherwise EVERY SINGLE SITH wouldnt use it and use it MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. How thick do you have to be for that not to sink in? Really, its not difficult.

 

No it isn't wrong, that is the whole point. In the movies there is no such things as a Jedi consular as seen in TOR. The class is made up, it goes against everything we know about the Jedi. But you seemingly have no problem with that, going as far as to argue that there is at least one Jedi Consular in the game.

But you do have a problem with the signature move being the strongest/most damaging force power we've seen any Jedi use in the movies.

Force throw is the only thing we've seen in the movies that could be considered comparable to force lighting and as such it only makes sense that it is the signature move of the consular.

 

Actually, here we have some common ground. There is such a thing as a consular, but the TOR version of it is nothing more than a reskinned Inquisitor. Con and Inqs have exactly the same skills in this game, doing the exact same things, with just different skins. They built the Inqs first and then reskinned them. That is not the way to produce a good jedi class. I have stated this point over and over.

 

Where do you get its the strongest power? Anakin throwing droid junk wasnt particularly powerful. And Yoda throwing a senate car back wasnt particularly powerful. I would rather have a force push/shockwave any time over junk. It looks MUCH more powerful. And Force Push is the jedi opposite to lightning. When sidious lightnings yoda, yoda responds with a push that knocks him on his butt. The too skills were EQUAL in power. Lightning knocked Yoda on his butt, Push knocked sidious on his butt. They were EXACT matches.

 

And yet in the movies we see Luke Skywalker using force choke.

 

I've noted that several times. And in the EU we see him use green lightning and plo kloon use yellow lightning.

 

Oh, as for the animation. It is surprisingly good, when I first saw it I thought it looked silly, but now I like it.

 

The new animation is better for shadows, timing wise, and is little different with the melee aspect. Sages, it is more different, more of a change. But its flaw still revolves around being tied to JUNK.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Dyvim

[Sireene]

Hi everybody!

 

This thread is starting to get off-topic and unrelated to the main discussion which is sharing opinions on the Project animation. Please keep all replies on-topic, constructive, and respectful of others even if there are disagreements in opinion.

 

While brief discussion is fine, the main focus should remain on the Project animation and what your opinions are on it. Additionally, should you wish to carry on a conversation that goes off on a tangent, please remember our Private Message function. This will help prevent the conversation from becoming derailed and keep it constructive.

 

Finally, we do have our Story & Lore forums where you all can go in to more detailed discussions over such things.

 

Thanks!

[khsolo]

Its really terribad, i have a 50 sentinel and now lvl a 33 sage and was trully dissapointed when they changed the animation this last patch, hope they make it better really