1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[Kontraz]

Everything a Marauder does has 1 key element. It requires being in melee range. even their "energy regen" requires it.

 

If you aren't kiting a Marauder at all you will probably lose every time, but if you do kite them for most of the fight you will probably win.

 

They are not the unkiteable class you think they are either unless they are carnage, but noone plays carnage because its a terrible 1v1 spec. Most Marauders are Annihilation and they have 1 gap closer on a 12 second CD and a 50% slow. Their vanish isn't a gap closer unless you are standing still during it(aka run away for 4 seconds!). If you are stuck in melee combat 100% of the fight against them... You are probably doing something wrong. Every class has a spec that can kite Marauders exceptionally well. Even Powertechs(Advanced Prototype) and Mercenaries(Pyro). If you don't want to play a spec that can kite Marauders, or you don't want to learn how to kite then you don't deserve to beat Marauders.

 

If you think Marauders are evenly remotely impossible to kite then good luck with Vengeance Juggernauts who have twice the gap closers and CC immunity (and Ravages).

 

Please, tell me which spec Commando has that can beat marauders. Combat medic certainly can't. They just hope to survive long enough for someone to save them, but they're a healer, so thats understandable. Assault can kite, I guess, but as soon as the marauder uses their force leap its over. Plus, while they kite, they can't use their primary attack Charged Bolt, because it has a cast time. You can try to just do high burst damage with your instants, but you will drain your ammo too quickly and resort to using hammer shot as your only mobile alternative... and yeah... that'll kill them fast enough.

 

Let's not even go the gunnery route. War Hero Gunnery vs a Recruit Marauder might be a decent fight if the gunnery gets a good jump on him.

[Roiz]

Please, tell me which spec Commando has that can beat marauders. Combat medic certainly can't. They just hope to survive long enough for someone to save them, but they're a healer, so thats understandable. Assault can kite, I guess, but as soon as the marauder uses their force leap its over. Plus, while they kite, they can't use their primary attack Charged Bolt, because it has a cast time. You can try to just do high burst damage with your instants, but you will drain your ammo too quickly and resort to using hammer shot as your only mobile alternative... and yeah... that'll kill them fast enough.

 

Let's not even go the gunnery route. War Hero Gunnery vs a Recruit Marauder might be a decent fight if the gunnery gets a good jump on him.

 

I have a merc and a marauder. In my marauder i usually kill merc and commando with no problems, but in my merc i can kite marauder and challendge them.

 

First you need to spec pyro, you need move all the warzone duration, do not stay in one place even if you don't see anyone. People are way more likely to attack staying target than moving. Keep all your targets and the closest enemies in 25-30 meters away from you, if someone move towards you imeediatly move away. If any melee charge on you that means you failed at keeping distance. You need to position your self that your teammates will be better targets for melee jumps.

 

Keep rotation very simple no unload no power shot. Only rapid shots, incenedary missile, termal detonator and rail shot. Some times you can do fussion missile and death from above but be worry then you cast this abilities you become more likly to be attacked.

 

If marauder jump on you immeditly knocback him and strafe using your rapid shots, you have a chance to apply dot to slow him. Next time he reach you use electro dart to stun him. Always strafe apply a pressure with rapid shots, keep incenedary missile dot on him use railshot every 15 seconds.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Roiz

[Kontraz]

I have a merc and a marauder. In my marauder i usually kills merc and commando with no problems, but in my merc i can kite marauder and challendge them.

 

First you need to spec pyro, you need move all the warzone duration, do not stay in one place even if you don't see anyone. People are way more likely to attack staying target than moving. Keep all your targets and the closest enemies in 25-30 meters away from you, if someone move towards you imeediatly move away. If any melee charge on you that means you failed at keeping distance. You need to position your self that your teammates will be better targets for melee jumps.

 

Keep rotation very simple no unload no power shot. Only rapid shots, incenedary missile, termal detonator and rail shot. Some times you can do fussion missile and death from above but be worry then you cast this abilities you become more likly to be attacked.

 

If marauder jump on you immeditly knocback him and strafe using your rapid shots, you have a chance to apply dot to slow him. Next time he reach you use electro dart to stun him. Always strafe apply a pressure with rapid shots, keep incenedary missile dot on him use railshot every 15 seconds.

 

the CD on electro dart far outlasts the CD on force leap. I'm basically just giving him 3 rage and a chance to root me. I get that pyro has the best chance of beating a mara 1v1 out of the group, but let's face it, if the mara is even halfway decent, they can take out a merc pyro no problem. Now, as a PT pyro I can go toe to toe with marauders all day.

 

edit: I'm not saying its impossible for a merc pyro to kite, it certainly is, but the redux in your dps from not using your more powerful attacks (except for the stronger instants, which eat up heat) you are not going to dish out enough dps while maintaining distance to kill the mara before they kill you. The exception being if you use your hard hitting instants back to back, but once they pop undying rage you're heat is probably too high to finish them off once it wears off.

 

Again, like I said, not impossible, but a mara of equal skill and gear is going to win the vast majority of the time.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Kontraz

[Roiz]

the CD on electro dart far outlasts the CD on force leap. I'm basically just giving him 3 rage and a chance to root me. I get that pyro has the best chance of beating a mara 1v1 out of the group, but let's face it, if the mara is even halfway decent, they can take out a merc pyro no problem. Now, as a PT pyro I can go toe to toe with marauders all day.

 

edit: I'm not saying its impossible for a merc pyro to kite, it certainly is, but the redux in your dps from not using your more powerful attacks (except for the stronger instants, which eat up heat) you are not going to dish out enough dps while maintaining distance to kill the mara before they kill you. The exception being if you use your hard hitting instants back to back, but once they pop undying rage you're heat is probably too high to finish them off once it wears off.

 

Again, like I said, not impossible, but a mara of equal skill and gear is going to win the vast majority of the time.

 

It is about human psyhology in group fights if you constantly moving behind your team mates you are not going to be attacked. I checked combat logs with unload and power shot and without them dps reduction is quite small your main source of damage is burning dot. By moving constantly you increase your uptime and survivability drastically in exchange to small dps descrease. Playing that way i sually in top of damage done in every warzone, with plenty of kills and few deaths. I have less deaths on my merc than in my marauder in averadge warzone. Marauder is front line class sooner or later after cd burn it die anyway but merc can stay in distance for very long time.

 

Concerning 1v1 good marauder has an advantage over merc and its fair, overwise every one will play ranged classes only. What is the point of playing melee class with gimped range having positional disadvantages in group fights. This is why marauder has better burst and far better defencive cooldowns as a compensation for shorter range and positional disadvantages.

 

Nobody amswere the question is marauder op or not without prejudice until ranked warzones starts and we will be able to see the stats and the teams with better performance. From my experience from wow ranged classes hves better synergies and all succesfull teams 5v5 or ranked bg usually stay away from short ranged classes.

 

People just underestimate the power of kiting and focusing on one target. Let's say you play a premade and have sound communication and there is a desision to focus fire from 4 dps in one healer, if people play ranged classes all they immediatly focus in one target, but if they play a melee they need to reach that target but if some of them doesn't have charge on CD they have to move, so only 3 will focus on healer. There are planty of moment like this then you play in premades with sound comminucation and range allow to sinergies team play way better.

[Superawesomerman]

After looking at lists, im prepared to agree that tanksin are both slightly more difficult to play (post 1.2) and have slightly more utility at high levels. Tankasins simply get more stuff: especially guard, taunt, kb, and grip. The fact that a lot of their stuff Is not free makes it harder to use, too.

[Kontraz]

It is about human psyhology in group fights if you constantly moving behind your team mates you are not going to be attacked. I checked combat logs with unload and power shot and without them dps reduction is quite small your main source of damage is burning dot. By moving constantly you increase your uptime and survivability drastically in exchange to small dps descrease. Playing that way i sually in top of damage done in every warzone, with plenty of kills and few deaths. I have less deaths on my merc than in my marauder in averadge warzone. Marauder is front line class sooner or later after cd burn it die anyway but merc can stay in distance for very long time.

 

Concerning 1v1 good marauder has an advantage over merc and its fair, overwise every one will play ranged classes only. What is the point of playing melee class with gimped range having positional disadvantages in group fights. This is why marauder has better burst and far better defencive cooldowns as a compensation for shorter range and positional disadvantages.

 

Nobody amswere the question is marauder op or not without prejudice until ranked warzones starts and we will be able to see the stats and the teams with better performance. From my experience from wow ranged classes hves better synergies and all succesfull teams 5v5 or ranked bg usually stay away from short ranged classes.

 

People just underestimate the power of kiting and focusing on one target. Let's say you play a premade and have sound communication and there is a desision to focus fire from 4 dps in one healer, if people play ranged classes all they immediatly focus in one target, but if they play a melee they need to reach that target but if some of them doesn't have charge on CD they have to move, so only 3 will focus on healer. There are planty of moment like this then you play in premades with sound comminucation and range allow to sinergies team play way better.

 

I agree, but when melee classes have gap closers (that are on shorter cooldowns than pushbacks) it makes the ranged advantage almost negatable, at least from my perspective.

 

as is, the only thing I see mercs doing well against is other mercs, though hopefully with the upcoming changes in 1.3 that will change. I have no desire to see them OP that like they used to be (able to spam just one attack) but they need to be able to hold their own to some extent. As is, they feel more like a support class than direct dps, which I suppose is fine, but considering I was 50 very early in the game (when they were still straight dps) its like having the rug yanked out from under you. I would like if one of the three talent trees was closer to a direct range dps.

[svartalfimposter]

I get my butt handed to me by maras/sents and consulars. I think there's a clear force-wielder bias, but shhh they are the signature classes, right?

[UGLYMRJ]

I get my butt handed to me by maras/sents and consulars. I think there's a clear force-wielder bias, but shhh they are the signature classes, right?

 

Your comment is void due to the following circumstances: Pyrotech

 

The end

[Varicite]

I get my butt handed to me by maras/sents and consulars. I think there's a clear force-wielder bias, but shhh they are the signature classes, right?

 

Op healers, Pyro PTs, and Snipers all seem to be doing pretty well right now.

 

There is at least one spec for every AC that does well in PvP, except maybe Merc/Commandos. Sorry guys. :c

[EugeneYap]

Please, tell me which spec Commando has that can beat marauders. Combat medic certainly can't. They just hope to survive long enough for someone to save them, but they're a healer, so thats understandable. Assault can kite, I guess, but as soon as the marauder uses their force leap its over. Plus, while they kite, they can't use their primary attack Charged Bolt, because it has a cast time. You can try to just do high burst damage with your instants, but you will drain your ammo too quickly and resort to using hammer shot as your only mobile alternative... and yeah... that'll kill them fast enough.

 

Let's not even go the gunnery route. War Hero Gunnery vs a Recruit Marauder might be a decent fight if the gunnery gets a good jump on him.

 

You really want to know?????

 

A players blind 24keys to keyboard and mouse who do not rely on face rolling, in order to beat a melee

[ProfessorWalsh]

You really want to know?????

 

A players blind 24keys to keyboard and mouse who do not rely on face rolling, in order to beat a melee

 

...

 

You do know that same melee (IE Sentinels) have to also bind 24+ keys to the keyboard and mouse to beat anyone.

 

Geeze, lemme count my keybinds real fast:

 

Strike

Zealous Strike

Slash (though rarely used it is on a shift bind)

Force Leap

Relic 1

Relic 2

Warzone Adrenal

Health Adrenal

Rebuke

Saber Ward

Blind (can't remember the real ability name, it blinds the target...)

Awe

Force Stasis

Dispatch

Blade Rush

Blade Storm

Precision Strike

Master Strike

Riposte

Force Kick

Crippling Throw

Leg Slash

Force Leap

Force Cloak

CC Break

Zen

Transcendence

Inspiration (+15% damage and healing for me and team)

 

If you want to call that facerolling then you are ignorant of the mechanics of a Sentinel completely and there may be more than those I listed, I did that off the top of my head, meaning those are ones I frequently enough to remember use on a regular basis. 28 Keybinds to make my class work.

 

What bothers me is the part where you said, "Just to beat a melee" really. What world do you live in where melee are supposed to be easily beaten or dealt with by ranged classes? Melee are supposed to be just as hard to deal with as any other class.

 

The real difference is that Sentinel and Marauder players had to use all of their abilities even in PVE leveling up. We don't get to do like Commandos and get ourselves down to 5-6 buttons. We use everything or nothing at all.

 

Edit:

Forgot a few other things I have bound:

 

Force Sweep

Cyclone Slash

Hilt Strike

Opportune Attack

 

So 32 keys bound.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[LegionAlpha]

So much qq I can't handle it. Get good idiots. Cry cuz you die and cry when your class is merged. When do you smile? Take a break, below are instructions:

 

1. Use muscles in legs and back to lift off chair.

2. Extend one leg out and plant to floor.

3. Do same as 2 with other leg.

4. Approach door

5. Twist knob on door and pull/push

6. Put on sunglasses( any light will really be sensitive to you)

7. Walk out front door. Refer to step 2 on how to walk.

8. When you see your neighbor practice social skills by saying "hi, how are you today?"

9. Enjoy the day.

Edited June 18, 2012 by LegionAlpha

[Cerdo_hormiguero]

...

 

You do know that same melee (IE Sentinels) have to also bind 24+ keys to the keyboard and mouse to beat anyone.

 

 

No one is saying they are easy to play: they are arguably the most difficult to play well. However:

1. the difficulty is not THAT big (less than most WoW classes in high-end arenas)

2. when played well they are so much stronger than any other class

 

 

The point is: a perfectly played Sent/Marauder is much stronger than a perfectly played any-other-class

[islander]

Some sort of sick joke, right?

 

L2P, no nerfs required.

 

If you can't beat or at least escape a Mara/Sent then you are simply bad. All sorts of ranged utilities to escape one. If you want to QQ about one on one fights, starting from melee range, then OK, go right ahead.

 

In the grand scheme, Mara's aren't OP. Only baddie opponents are UP. Baddie ranged classes fight Mara's within Mara range come here with buckets of forum tears

Edited June 18, 2012 by islander

[islander]

No one is saying they are easy to play: they are arguably the most difficult to play well. However:

1. the difficulty is not THAT big (less than most WoW classes in high-end arenas)

2. when played well they are so much stronger than any other class

 

 

The point is: a perfectly played Sent/Marauder is much stronger than a perfectly played any-other-class

 

- Keep Mara rooted/at range = win.

- 2 on 1 Mara = Mara dies.

 

Bioware tests this stuff over and over again. Good players make almost ANY spec sing.

[Varicite]

L2P, no nerfs required.

 

If you can't beat or escape a Mara/Sent then you are simply bad. If you want to QQ about one on one fights, starting from melee range, then OK, go ahead.

 

In the grand scheme, Mara's aren't OP. Only baddie opponents are UP.

 

I read this as:

 

Please don't bring up 1v1 combat where my class is ridiculously strong and only has 1 real counter, which is being nerfed in 1.3.

 

/shrug

[islander]

I read this as:

 

Please don't bring up 1v1 combat where my class is ridiculously strong and only has 1 real counter, which is being nerfed in 1.3.

 

/shrug

 

I dunno about you, but I seldom experience 1v1 combat. That's for ranged people. See, I'm melee, which means there are ALWAYS people around me, my own team, and the opponent. One on One, in melee range, most maras do well. There's a lot of skill involved to make it happen. I wouldn't come close to considering myself a top one. Most Maras do die.

 

I am NOT a fan of the aforementioned nerf, for what that's worth. I enjoy the heck out of my sniper I'm levelign (yes, can't speak for level 50 sniper pvp first hand, yet )

 

edit: Honestly, I end up doing WZ's with my sorc healer the most. Mostly because they seem to be needed more.

Edited June 18, 2012 by islander

[Varicite]

I dunno about you, but I seldom experience 1v1 combat. That's for ranged people. See, I'm melee, which means there are ALWAYS people around me, my own team, and the opponent. One on One, in melee range, most maras do well. There's a lot of skill involved to make it happen. I wouldn't come close to considering myself a top one. Most Maras do die.

 

I am NOT a fan of the aforementioned nerf, for what that's worth. I enjoy the heck out of my sniper I'm levelign (yes, can't speak for level 50 sniper pvp first hand, yet )

 

edit: Honestly, I end up doing WZ's with my sorc healer the most. Mostly because they seem to be needed more.

 

I'll give you this, and this is why you won't see me calling for nerfs on the stronger dueling specs anytime soon.

 

PvP is not all about 1v1, fortunately, but everyone needs to recognize that a class that is strong 1v1 is also going to be strong in numbers.

[Xinika]

L2P, no nerfs required.

 

If you can't beat or at least escape a Mara/Sent then you are simply bad. All sorts of ranged utilities to escape one. If you want to QQ about one on one fights, starting from melee range, then OK, go right ahead.

 

In the grand scheme, Mara's aren't OP. Only baddie opponents are UP. Baddie ranged classes fight Mara's within Mara range come here with buckets of forum tears

 

I can beat them. Easily too, but if you think 1v1 is important then congratulations on completely missing the point.

[Grisher]

This nerf discusion is like........"Dear devs, please nerf rock....paper and scissor is ok"! Edited June 18, 2012 by Grisher

[RogueNights]

W/ out healing (and other support/ group synergies) this game plays like one giant 1v1 battle. I would say that the strongest 1v1 spec should not be a dps class, they are good at bursting down the synergies needed to beat them..

 

Would guess a lot of the complaining comes from the overall class design, just a couple observations:

1. Marauders Don't play any significant support roll

2. There are no hard counters to marauders/ and few strong ones

3. Nearly any class can greatly enhance the damage a marauder is capable of (stuns, slows, anything that allows a mara to unload dps quicker and easier)

 

All of it really leads to one thing... you can play a mara w/ out thinking. Maybe your 32 key rotation is tougher than most, tactically speaking tho the game is pretty easy, doesn't matter who your with or against, your ok. Unlike some of the weaker classes, in virtually no situation can you have you're effectiveness reduced to 0. Spending your last 5 seconds in glory unloading dps into some helpless operatives face... isn't even really losing, its awesome. The class just feels good to play.

[Seravis]

W/ out healing (and other support/ group synergies) this game plays like one giant 1v1 battle. I would say that the strongest 1v1 spec should not be a dps class, they are good at bursting down the synergies needed to beat them..

 

Would guess a lot of the complaining comes from the overall class design, just a couple observations:

1. Marauders Don't play any significant support roll

2. There are no hard counters to marauders/ and few strong ones

3. Nearly any class can greatly enhance the damage a marauder is capable of (stuns, slows, anything that allows a mara to unload dps quicker and easier)

 

All of it really leads to one thing... you can play a mara w/ out thinking. Maybe your 32 key rotation is tougher than most, tactically speaking tho the game is pretty easy, doesn't matter who your with or against, your ok. Unlike some of the weaker classes, in virtually no situation can you have you're effectiveness reduced to 0. Spending your last 5 seconds in glory unloading dps into some helpless operatives face... isn't even really losing, its awesome. The class just feels good to play.

 

The best 1v1 spec is actually a TANK. aka Tanksins. Marauders are very strong 1v1 classes but they lose to several other classes. Tanksins though currently beat everything with 0 counters.

 

1. I agree that Marauders really don't have any role beyond doing DPS. If they sacrifice a good chunk of DPS(their only role) they can use Predation which is about the only real utility they've got and generally you only need 1-2 Marauders for it. They can't protect healers well, and they are mediocre at all objectives that aren't "kill the squishies".(aka they suck at killing the Huttball carrier, and defending objectives, and so on). They fill the pure DPS slot phenomenally well in PVP, but need other classes to fill in the "Tank", "Healer", and "CC" roles.

 

2. Snipers "hard" counter Marauders about as hard as Marauders "hard" counter Troopers. Those are the hardest counters I know of currently. Although to be fair the Sniper has a much higher skill floor to counter a Marauder than a Marauder has to counter a Trooper. At top-level it is a pretty brutal counter for both.

 

3. So if Marauders have support from other players they can stick to targets better and thus generate more rage/damage? It DOES help to have other classes supporting Marauders with their superior CC, but that sounds like a good thing that teamwork provides some kind of synergy for Marauders.

 

I'm not going to get into to whether this game is "hard" compared to other games, but Marauders are far from the "brainless" class/spec in the game. They have arguably one of the highest skills floors of the classes. Bad Marauders are hilariously bad.

[Astarica]

Not counting healers who usually don't win 1on1 period, I'm having a hard time thinking of a class that's great at 1v1 and somehow bad in group combat. In the worst case you can still attack whoever you normally could beat 1v1 knowing that you've a big advantage there.

 

Marauders are strong in 1v1 and they're not weaker in group combat. Maybe not as good as a Tankasin (about to be nerfed) but definitely competitive in terms of utility to any pure DPS. Trauma and the 30 stack buffs are all pretty useful.

[Coldin]

Op healers, Pyro PTs, and Snipers all seem to be doing pretty well right now.

 

There is at least one spec for every AC that does well in PvP, except maybe Merc/Commandos. Sorry guys. :c

 

I could probably agree with this. Though I still feel like certain AC/Trees are a bit further ahead than others. Commando/Mercs don't really have any trees that strike me as amazing. Same with Sage/Sorc. That lightning hurts, but they're pretty quick to kill.

 

The problem is....even if each AC gets one spec that performs well in PVP, that still means there's 2 trees for each AC that isn't up to par.

 

If someone picks a Scoundrel for DPS, they really don't want to use the healing tree. But to be using their best tree, they have to be heals. Powertechs have the same issue with Pyrotech. So do Assassins with their tanking tree.

 

I see this is as an issue that needs to get resolved. Every tree should be valuable for PVP in some aspect.

[Varicite]

I could probably agree with this. Though I still feel like certain AC/Trees are a bit further ahead than others. Commando/Mercs don't really have any trees that strike me as amazing. Same with Sage/Sorc. That lightning hurts, but they're pretty quick to kill.

 

The problem is....even if each AC gets one spec that performs well in PVP, that still means there's 2 trees for each AC that isn't up to par.

 

If someone picks a Scoundrel for DPS, they really don't want to use the healing tree. But to be using their best tree, they have to be heals. Powertechs have the same issue with Pyrotech. So do Assassins with their tanking tree.

 

I see this is as an issue that needs to get resolved. Every tree should be valuable for PVP in some aspect.

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly w/ everything that you wrote here.

 

People seem to think it's classes/ACs that need buffs, but it's not. It's just individual specs that need to be brought in line w/ their more powerful counterparts. : )