1.3 Juggernaut Changes

[AtlasOs]

I am pretty sad that they are taking our only decent dps move and nerfing it. The additional stacks when an opponent already has 5 will be very rare as you would need one crushing blow plus 2 sundering assaults to then take advantage of the aoe stacks after your crushing blow cool down. At this point one of 2 things will happen. A) Your teammates will have already killed the main target of your next crushing blow, or B) you are fighting a boss and who *********** cares about stacks on other enemies as there are none. Who cares that it doesnt cost any rage as you also just got your backhand nerfed and WAIT you have no other dps moves. So now to add insult to injury you are not only taking my crushing blow when I put my full immortal tree to use but you are also taking my 6% strength and not even giving me the option? I feel like I am going to waste 3-4 augment slots just to get my strength back to how I had it while other classes will actually enjoy the added effects of their augments. P.S giving me armor reduction on smash when I barely use it in a raid filled with good CC from sorcerers is not helping at ALL. I wont even go into pvp and how our bonuses for war leader are tragic and our gear is the worst. Before you flame me yes I pvp a lot and average top 3 every time. If your running Immortal like me I guess you can expect to swing a wiffleball bat and hope your teammates or companion can kill something. its bad enough we stand 0 chance against sorcerers I mean its not even close in PvP. Thank you Bioware. Your like a bad mechanic, you fix the A/C and break the transmission. Now go make up a new Mass Effect ending. Rant over

[Craxim]

The Crushing Blow AoE mechanic will take a few seconds to get into a fight, yes, but on HM, this will help on trash in EC. As far as everything else, Smash and Sweeping are now adding the debuff as well as doing 30% more threat each, added to the 50% increase to Soresu Form, it is worth it. I would like to see where 15-30% reduction comes from. I see a slight nerf to Crushing, a slight nerf to Backhand (1 min CD, even more minimal) and 6% reduction from SSM. Where is this 15-30%? PT tanks are also getting DPS nerfs as well, in case you are not aware. Apparently a tank tanking instead of DPSing means that he is being carried by the DPS. Or....the tank's job is to hold aggro and survive while the DPS do exactly what their role is called.

 

This patch is a harsh nerf for PvP, but it is an attempt to balance the specs.

 

This patch is a good thing for PvE, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I would love to discuss why.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Craxim

[Veeius]

This patch is a good thing for PvE, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I would love to discuss why.

 

 

Jugg tank dps was already at the bottom of the bucket. If your team is missing enrage timers, it'd make a lot of sense to bench the jugg to bring in a sin or pt who has about as much durability, but substantially more dps.

 

This patch is nerfing jugg immortal dps in several ways, when it arguably needed a buff.

 

Also, I completely do not understand why they are changing crushing blow to go from the heaviest hitter we have to ANOTHER aoe that we don't need. Its really not that hard to move mobs away from cc'd mobs so you can smash and sweeping slash. In fact, given that they're not changing other's aoe to not break cc, you'll STILL have to move them away anyways. In otherwords, the crushing blow change gives us nothing we didn't already have enough of, but at the same time takes something that we could use away.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Veeius
other point about crushing blow

[lordofdamornin]

The Crushing Blow AoE mechanic will take a few seconds to get into a fight, yes, but on HM, this will help on trash in EC. As far as everything else, Smash and Sweeping are now adding the debuff as well as doing 30% more threat each, added to the 50% increase to Soresu Form, it is worth it. I would like to see where 15-30% reduction comes from. I see a slight nerf to Crushing, a slight nerf to Backhand (1 min CD, even more minimal) and 6% reduction from SSM. Where is this 15-30%? PT tanks are also getting DPS nerfs as well, in case you are not aware. Apparently a tank tanking instead of DPSing means that he is being carried by the DPS. Or....the tank's job is to hold aggro and survive while the DPS do exactly what their role is called.

 

This patch is a harsh nerf for PvP, but it is an attempt to balance the specs.

 

This patch is a good thing for PvE, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I would love to discuss why.

 

From what I have seen, the nerf to Crushing Blow alone will translate into roughly a 10% damage nerf. Add in the SSM change, and I am seeing ~15% to 18% total on the nerf. I am not saying that my numbers are definitive in any way, and they could very well be wrong, but that is what I am seeing so far. It won't endanger Threat generation in Ops or Flashpoints, but those aren't the only parts in the game that matter. It will significantly affect any Immortal spec Juggernaut in PvP, and those trying to get things done in the world in general.

 

Veeius - tanking is being made EZmode for all tanks. PT/Assassin AE will also not break CC after 1.3. I poop on this change, because while it will make Group Finder groups run smoother (it will), they seem to think it will also add more tanks to the queue (it won't over the long term).

 

Riôt

[Craxim]

From what I have seen, the nerf to Crushing Blow alone will translate into roughly a 10% damage nerf. Add in the SSM change, and I am seeing ~15% to 18% total on the nerf. I am not saying that my numbers are definitive in any way, and they could very well be wrong, but that is what I am seeing so far. It won't endanger Threat generation in Ops or Flashpoints, but those aren't the only parts in the game that matter. It will significantly affect any Immortal spec Juggernaut in PvP, and those trying to get things done in the world in general.

 

Veeius - tanking is being made EZmode for all tanks. PT/Assassin AE will also not break CC after 1.3. I poop on this change, because while it will make Group Finder groups run smoother (it will), they seem to think it will also add more tanks to the queue (it won't over the long term).

 

Riôt

 

I won't argue the change in terms of PvP. As far as PvP goes, it might be the worst nerf in MMO history for all I know, and it if is, then I'm sorry to all the PvPers to hear that. I've said this many times, and I will say it again. If your raid is struggling with enrage times, the DPS are doing something wrong. During progression, when enrage is actually a problem, our raid looks towards pushing the DPS to its limits and bringing the most OP DPS classes they can. They don't look at a tank for it. Juggs are now arguably the best survivability tanks in the game now. It's a change I'm glad for, personally, as my raid doesn't have problems with enrage and I don't PvP.

[vandana_]

I think the people that like the changes are those that are more worried about holding threat on ALL mobs around them, then they are about our measly little 15-30% damage cut. they forget that solo work is still a big part of many tanks, and that little dps loss turns they're 31 pt talent into a skill that is on single targets almost as weak as your basic skill you get at level 1. You could even buff that same skill with a few points in the Rage tree to most likely be better then our amazing 31 pt talent.

 

But hey! it hits 3 targets now! because....you know...we didn't have any abilities that hit 3 targets...

 

...like smash.....

...or like Sweeping Slash....

 

nah. nothing. sure needed those two extra targets. that's gonna make Such a difference!

 

and backhand...I'm soo glad they took of that rage cost. because...you know...with a boss and 2-3 or more trash mobs hitting me ALL THE TIME, I was always low on rage. it even dipped under the cap on occasion! im sure glad backhand is free now...I never cared about it's damage output anyways.

 

But of course, all this is irrelevant. they boosted our threat in Soresu so much we can hold aggro on a dead stick. and with the extra damage mitigation in Soresu, even our Vengeance brethren can flop over to Soresu in an instant and be an effective tank....

 

....with tons more damage then a full immortal...

...hold on, I need to get a few tissues, be right back. it's just allergies, really.

 

I sign up under every word you say here. I'll try to keep what I have to say civil although my nerd rage levels are boiling dangerously already having passed the critical mass. I was too busy fighting for a free transfer for Lord Calypho to notice what they are doing to my class. I would like to say that playing my beloved Immortal is now completely unchallenging and boring experience, nerfed to the ground in PVP and significantly in PVE boss fights. But who cares - lets zerg through Black Talon and get LOOTZ!

 

I like to think I am a decent tank and my current progression is Warlord Kephess HM (we are 2 day raiding guild). So I can say I actively tanked every fight in the game and I have enough experience to post on this matter. Now, I can only blame myself for not researching 1.3 changes and not speaking on this before. Now that the changes are already implemented God only knows if they will be reversed (which should be done).

 

Now ad meritum - back in a day class design was based on endgame PVE and PVP and boost to AOE threat was an optional thing that you spec into. Now, with the introduction of 1.3 group finder Bioware decided to also include an idiot mode threat boost for all tanks. In the process they ruined Juggernaut. Because keeping aggro on a whole pack of mobs in a flashpoint is SOOOOO important... The overflow of Sunder Armor stacks, nerfed but free Backhand and completely useless AOE on Crushing Blow are awful changes. 50% threat boost on Soresu + boost to Sweeping Slash was more than enough to make us viable AOE tanks. Now our burst initial and single target tools (backhand and crushing blow) have been nerfed to oblivion and as the poster I quote noticed - we are not any more viable tanks than Vengeance Juggernaut in Soresu form. Why even go for Immortal when something that's supposed to be your cherry on top of a cake (31 point Crushing Blow) is now useless ****? Crushing Blow in previous form made sense because you used it on single target bosses to build your stacks quickly and burst a bit for single target threat. Now that BOTH CB and Backhand are nerfed Assault is equally viable for threat generation.

 

I'm not even starting on PVP... it's self explanatory and I play Rage anyway.

 

Sorry for that little constructive bit - ranting and moaning is apparently the way to go - the developers of this game already made it obvious to me that they don't do things that make sense (or don't know what that is). Instead, they cater to whining crowds. Someone can't keep aggro on anything because they can't instruct the DPS to attack the weak targets first and elites last in a flashpoint or blow their AOE taunt on single mobs because they don't know how to keep aggro? They go, post here with their "OMG Powertechs AOE threat is so OP" and the result is here. Extremely, extremely disappointing and another proof that BW has no clue.

 

P.S. Crushing Blow attacking 2 targets more... still can't stop laughing and crying at the same time.

Edited June 27, 2012 by vandana_

[gripenfelter]

I would like to say that playing my beloved Immortal is now completely unchallenging and boring experience, nerfed to the ground in PVP and significantly in PVE boss fights. But who cares - lets zerg through Black Talon and get LOOTZ!

 

I like to think I am a decent tank and my current progression is Warlord Kephess HM (we are 2 day raiding guild). So I can say I actively tanked every fight in the game and I have enough experience to post on this matter. Now, I can only blame myself for not researching 1.3 changes and not speaking on this before. Now that the changes are already implemented God only knows if they will be reversed (which should be done).

 

Now ad meritum - back in a day class design was based on endgame PVE and PVP and boost to AOE threat was an optional thing that you spec into. Now, with the introduction of 1.3 group finder Bioware decided to also include an idiot mode threat boost for all tanks. In the process they ruined Juggernaut. Because keeping aggro on a whole pack of mobs in a flashpoint is SOOOOO important... The overflow of Sunder Armor stacks, nerfed but free Backhand and completely useless AOE on Crushing Blow are awful changes. 50% threat boost on Soresu + boost to Sweeping Slash was more than enough to make us viable AOE tanks. Now our burst initial and single target tools (backhand and crushing blow) have been nerfed to oblivion and as the poster I quote noticed - we are not any more viable tanks than Vengeance Juggernaut in Soresu form. Why even go for Immortal when something that's supposed to be your cherry on top of a cake (31 point Crushing Blow) is now useless ****? Crushing Blow in previous form made sense because you used it on single target bosses to build your stacks quickly and burst a bit for single target threat. Now that BOTH CB and Backhand are nerfed Assault is equally viable for threat generation.

 

I'm not even starting on PVP... it's self explanatory and I play Rage anyway.

 

Sorry for that little constructive bit - ranting and moaning is apparently the way to go - the developers of this game already made it obvious to me that they don't do things that make sense (or don't know what that is). Instead, they cater to whining crowds. Someone can't keep aggro on anything because they can't instruct the DPS to attack the weak targets first and elites last in a flashpoint? They go, post here with their "OMG Powertechs AOE threat is so OP" and the result is here. Extremely, extremely disappointing and another proof that BW has no clue.

 

P.S. Crushing Blow attacking 2 targets more... still can't stop laughing and crying at the same time.

 

Complete agreement....

 

Crushing blow is a complete joke. Sure it works great for the four packs in the Black Hole or KP, other then that it useless on any type of boss fight. That's if you can get enough stacks before the mob dies.I even had to ask my healers if something was wrong last night during our weekly ops runs, because I felt I was getting worked over.

 

Juggernauts/Knights, in my opinion, were suppose to be the staple of this game. They were suppose to be the prime example of what all tanks should be, it's suppose to be the most brutal/damage absorbing/meanest mother effer in the game.

 

Sadly it was mildly weak and pathetic before, now the class is just a joke.

Edited June 27, 2012 by gripenfelter

[vandana_]

Most people will be going for hybrid myself included. Reverse this change to Crushing Blow ASAP.

[vandana_]

The Crushing Blow AoE mechanic will take a few seconds to get into a fight, yes, but on HM, this will help on trash in EC. As far as everything else, Smash and Sweeping are now adding the debuff as well as doing 30% more threat each, added to the 50% increase to Soresu Form, it is worth it. I would like to see where 15-30% reduction comes from. I see a slight nerf to Crushing, a slight nerf to Backhand (1 min CD, even more minimal) and 6% reduction from SSM. Where is this 15-30%? PT tanks are also getting DPS nerfs as well, in case you are not aware. Apparently a tank tanking instead of DPSing means that he is being carried by the DPS. Or....the tank's job is to hold aggro and survive while the DPS do exactly what their role is called.

 

This patch is a harsh nerf for PvP, but it is an attempt to balance the specs.

 

This patch is a good thing for PvE, and anyone who thinks otherwise, I would love to discuss why.

 

Firstly, all tanks must do roughly the same damage - be it low or high. Juggernaut is not on par with other classes. If you are world progression ranking you should know that every little helps and what you posted before about dps not doing their job if you need a tank to dps is just not the case.

 

Secondly, the 31 talent point - something that is supposed to feel like a reward for going that deep into the tree and be your signature skill has been made virtually useless. if you are happy with it being useful on EC trash or any other several mobs packs be my guest but that is not something I expect from my best move. The nerf to the ability was excessive.

[DarthMucus]

I am really, really sad now that 1.3 is live.

 

I was loving playing my Immortal spec in pvp, I just fell into the role really well. Using dps gear I could put out respectable damage and using taunts and guard I could make everyone live longer.

 

The nerf to Crushing blow breaks my heart...not to mention the nerf to backhand and Soresu in general.

Sure, it's got a cool "Intercede-esque" explosion and some cracks to go along with it now...but I cry a little every time I use Crushing Blow now. It's a fancy, 31 pt, wet noodle attack.

 

Giving tanks a clear and useful role in pvp was groundbreaking in the MMO world, and that has now been destroyed - War Leader's defense stats are close to worthless in pvp (along with the set bonuses) and now even with the Vindicator set the Immortal spec's damage is laughable.

 

Damn the nerf bat to hell. The last time someone swung it around in a Star Wars MMO...................

[Craxim]

Firstly, all tanks must do roughly the same damage - be it low or high. Juggernaut is not on par with other classes. If you are world progression ranking you should know that every little helps and what you posted before about dps not doing their job if you need a tank to dps is just not the case.

 

Secondly, the 31 talent point - something that is supposed to feel like a reward for going that deep into the tree and be your signature skill has been made virtually useless. if you are happy with it being useful on EC trash or any other several mobs packs be my guest but that is not something I expect from my best move. The nerf to the ability was excessive.

 

I should know that every little bit helps? I do. But I also know that as of right now, in 16 man HM EC, it's not needed. The little bit from tanks doesn't make any difference. The only thing we saw on Tuesday was better trash pulls, better threat on Kephiss's adds, and more threat on bosses. We didn't even feel the damage nerf as a raid, not even in the slightest.

 

The nerf to the ability was excessive. It was, I won't dispute that. Do I think they should unchange it? Yes. Do I think going hybrid to tank is a wise move? Absolutely not.

[AssajiStarseed]

I am really, really sad now that 1.3 is live.

 

I was loving playing my Immortal spec in pvp, I just fell into the role really well. Using dps gear I could put out respectable damage and using taunts and guard I could make everyone live longer.

 

The nerf to Crushing blow breaks my heart...not to mention the nerf to backhand and Soresu in general.

Sure, it's got a cool "Intercede-esque" explosion and some cracks to go along with it now...but I cry a little every time I use Crushing Blow now. It's a fancy, 31 pt, wet noodle attack.

 

Giving tanks a clear and useful role in pvp was groundbreaking in the MMO world, and that has now been destroyed - War Leader's defense stats are close to worthless in pvp (along with the set bonuses) and now even with the Vindicator set the Immortal spec's damage is laughable.

 

Damn the nerf bat to hell. The last time someone swung it around in a Star Wars MMO...................

 

this..

 

Complete agreement....

 

Crushing blow is a complete joke. Sure it works great for the four packs in the Black Hole or KP, other then that it useless on any type of boss fight. That's if you can get enough stacks before the mob dies.I even had to ask my healers if something was wrong last night during our weekly ops runs, because I felt I was getting worked over.

 

Juggernauts/Knights, in my opinion, were suppose to be the staple of this game. They were suppose to be the prime example of what all tanks should be, it's suppose to be the most brutal/damage absorbing/meanest mother effer in the game.

 

Sadly it was mildly weak and pathetic before, now the class is just a joke.

 

and this..

 

This is *********** unbelievable, someone please rub this into BW devs face?

 

Juggernauts/Knights, in my opinion, were suppose to be the staple of this game. They were suppose to be the prime example of what all tanks should be, it's suppose to be the most brutal/damage absorbing/meanest mother effer in the game.

 

I could not agree more... seriously *** are they doing, these devs - I do not comprehend.

 

I shall contemplate on it..

 

ps. the juggernaut name alone is a mother effing killer name already, along with the way the jug stands with his saber ready to fight, it's like the f ' ing grim reaper of jedis.. yet they're the weakest of all, bunch of ********s.

 

Sith assassins even tank better, WHAT THE **** I TELL YOU? Sorry, but it does not fit in my brain how it can be possible, I don't want it to fit in my brain, to put it more correctly.

Edited June 28, 2012 by AssajiStarseed

[MaleneStar]

I'm strictly end-game PVE Juggernaut Tank, and single-target bosses are 99% of the work. Who cares about trash /multiple mobs? Good crowd control takes care of that. The AOE threat generation is nice, but when wailing on bosses like Toth and Zorn, there's only one mob. 6% damage lost with the single-saber mastery change and reduced damage on backhand blow and crushing blow basically means jugg tanks get a dps nerf. We were already behind on DPS with powertechs and SIN tanks; now we're even farther behind.

[Hxxr]

6% melee damage in trade for nothing but 30% more threat on Smash and Sweeping Strike isn't that great.

Why Blade Barricade got reduced I do not know - if it wouldn't have been nerfed the patch might have been more favorable.

 

Backhand is a pretty good change, as is the threat modifier buff obviously.

 

Crushing Blow ... don't know what to say here other than wonder if Bioware is insane. 18/23/0 was a great spec before and is clearly superior now, for damage as well as single- and multi-target threat.

 

Changes that still need to be done for tank juggernauts are many. Crushing Blow needs more single target potential (as simple as a +damage modifier if it hits only one target), overall damage has to be buffed to a level where the other tanks are right now and Enraged Defense must not drop threat if used in Soresu form. Deafening Defense is probably also a contender for the Immortal tree as it's clearly a tank oriented talent. Maybe Tier 2 might be a good spot for it so damage dealer's survivability isn't going to get nerfed by moving the talent.

[Craxim]

6% melee damage in trade for nothing but 30% more threat on Smash and Sweeping Strike isn't that great.

Why Blade Barricade got reduced I do not know - if it wouldn't have been nerfed the patch might have been more favorable.

 

Backhand is a pretty good change, as is the threat modifier buff obviously.

 

Crushing Blow ... don't know what to say here other than wonder if Bioware is insane. 18/23/0 was a great spec before and is clearly superior now, for damage as well as single- and multi-target threat.

 

Changes that still need to be done for tank juggernauts are many. Crushing Blow needs more single target potential (as simple as a +damage modifier if it hits only one target), overall damage has to be buffed to a level where the other tanks are right now and Enraged Defense must not drop threat if used in Soresu form. Deafening Defense is probably also a contender for the Immortal tree as it's clearly a tank oriented talent. Maybe Tier 2 might be a good spot for it so damage dealer's survivability isn't going to get nerfed by moving the talent.

 

Blade Barricade didn't get nerfed, it got buffed.

 

The only reason a hybrid would be better for threat is because it would do more damage, which isn't important as a tank and I hold single and AoE threat just fine in full Immortal.

 

The word we're looking for here is "unnecessary".

[Powerrmongerr]

I would summarize the changes as follows:

 

1.)Fun aoe splash damage and knockback with crushing blow which might be useful for trash mobs and a few select flashpoint encounters (the kaon under siege trash mob "boss), but is utterly useless for end game single target tanking and represents a mere novelty unworthy of a 31 point talent.

 

2.)Single target threat boost that's entirely unnecessary (if you can't hold single target threat in this game with ANY tank, there's a gear or skill problem), and brings with it horrible nerfs to crushing blow and backhand (which seems like it's taken a 40% hit to damage).

 

3.)Backhand doesn't cost rage. Who cares? It's on a minute cooldown ... we needed another big hitting ability, not a damage nerf when we already had the lowest dps amongst tanks. And if you're that far up into immortal, you probably took revenge and sweeping whatever it is, which means you have zero rage problems. None at all. What you have is a ton of rage and nothing to spend it on but vicious slash, which by the way, now hits a single target for about as much as crushing blow.

 

4.)The change to single saber mastery hurts our white damage output, which sucks, as we do primarily white damage. What's even worse, we can't skip it because 3 of blade barricade's defense boosts have been moved to a dps tree skill. Yay. Six points to get the same benefit we got before with three. And don't tell me single saber mastery also gives us better aoe threat ... what good is aoe threat when our aoe damage abilities are so small in range? If you needed to tank a group, it could be managed with skill, plus good groups use cc on high level mobs anyway. Aoe threat improvements do nothing for end game tanking.

 

5.)The new smash ability is awesome. So. awesome. Even spending one point provides a huge benefit to aoe tanking and lets you get the armor debuff on a mob or single target up within the first few seconds. In fact, it's so great, it renders crushing blow redundant. Does the same thing, shorter cooldown, less rage, and basically the same damage PLUS it's pure yellow aoe damage, no need for five stacks to trigger.

 

6.)They fixed Sonic Barrier. I think. I'm really not sure. It's a useful ability. Too bad the skills that buff it (shortened cooldown, bleed) are in other skill tree(s).

 

CONCLUSION

 

The immortal tree is utterly and completely broken. You can go hybrid and pick up most of the tanking stuff, but the problem is that all the rage generators are high in the immortal tree ... the skill level required to tank with a hybrid spec is FAR greater because rage management is so much more difficult. If you're not getting your force scream, impale, or execute off as soon as they are off cooldown due to rage issues then you should have just stuck with immortal.

 

Sure, hybrid tanking is viable (and, frankly, better on paper), but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't EXTREMELY more difficult in certain areas ... particularly if you take impale and its four rage cost in an attempt to preserve some measure of dps. Basically with hybrid, if you don't know your rotations, you're going to be rage starved and ineffective a lot of the time. That's really the only downside to hybrid (as it does more damage and is actually tankier), but it's a big one. Given the low damage output in the immortal tree, and the difficulty of rage management if you go hybrid, I see effective juggernaut tanking as having a high barrier to entry at the moment.

 

Your two choices with 1.3 if you want to tank juggernaut are:

 

1.)A severely gimped (in terms of damage) immortal specced melee tank that has 1.3 buffed in useless areas, but which has no rage issues and possesses basically the exact same survivability as 1.2, or

 

2.)A hybrid tank that at least preserves, but probably improves, upon the damage output of a 1.2 immortal specced tank, has better survivability than a 1.3 immortal specced tank, but which is going to have a very high energy and skill requirement in terms of rage management.

 

These are not good choices.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Powerrmongerr

[Craxim]

I would summarize the changes as follows:

 

1.)Fun aoe splash damage and knockback with crushing blow which might be useful for trash mobs and a few select flashpoint encounters (the kaon under siege trash mob "boss), but is utterly useless for end game single target tanking and represents a mere novelty unworthy of a 31 point talent.

 

2.)Single target threat boost that's entirely unnecessary (if you can't hold single target threat in this game with ANY tank, there's a gear or skill problem), and brings with it horrible nerfs to crushing blow and backhand (which seems like it's taken a 40% hit to damage).

 

3.)Backhand doesn't cost rage. Who cares? It's on a minute cooldown ... we needed another big hitting ability, not a damage nerf when we already had the lowest dps amongst tanks. And if you're that far up into immortal, you probably took revenge and sweeping whatever it is, which means you have zero rage problems. None at all. What you have is a ton of rage and nothing to spend it on but vicious slash, which by the way, now hits a single target for about as much as crushing blow.

 

4.)The change to single saber mastery hurts our white damage output, which sucks, as we do primarily white damage. What's even worse, we can't skip it because 3 of blade barricade's defense boosts have been moved to a dps tree skill. Yay. Six points to get the same benefit we got before with three. And don't tell me single saber mastery also gives us better aoe threat ... what good is aoe threat when our aoe damage abilities are so small in range? If you needed to tank a group, it could be managed with skill, plus good groups use cc on high level mobs anyway. Aoe threat improvements do nothing for end game tanking.

 

5.)The new smash ability is awesome. So. awesome. Even spending one point provides a huge benefit to aoe tanking and lets you get the armor debuff on a mob or single target up within the first few seconds. In fact, it's so great, it renders crushing blow redundant. Does the same thing, shorter cooldown, less rage, and basically the same damage PLUS it's pure yellow aoe damage, no need for five stacks to trigger.

 

6.)They fixed Sonic Barrier. I think. I'm really not sure. It's a useful ability. Too bad the skills that buff it (shortened cooldown, bleed) are in other skill tree(s).

 

CONCLUSION

 

The immortal tree is utterly and completely broken. You can go hybrid and pick up most of the tanking stuff, but the problem is that all the rage generators are high in the immortal tree ... the skill level required to tank with a hybrid spec is FAR greater because rage management is so much more difficult. If you're not getting your force scream, impale, or execute off as soon as they are off cooldown due to rage issues then you should have just stuck with immortal.

 

Sure, hybrid tanking is viable (and, frankly, better on paper), but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't EXTREMELY more difficult in certain areas ... particularly if you take impale and its four rage cost in an attempt to preserve some measure of dps. Basically with hybrid, if you don't know your rotations, you're going to be rage starved and ineffective a lot of the time. That's really the only downside to hybrid (as it does more damage and is actually tankier), but it's a big one. Given the low damage output in the immortal tree, and the difficulty of rage management if you go hybrid, I see effective juggernaut tanking as having a high barrier to entry at the moment.

 

Your two choices with 1.3 if you want to tank juggernaut are:

 

1.)A severely gimped (in terms of damage) immortal specced melee tank that has 1.3 buffed in useless areas, but which has no rage issues and possesses basically the exact same survivability as 1.2, or

 

2.)A hybrid tank that at least preserves, but probably improves, upon the damage output of a 1.2 immortal specced tank, has better survivability than a 1.3 immortal specced tank, but which is going to have a very high energy and skill requirement in terms of rage management.

 

These are not good choices.

 

 

 

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Craxim

[vandana_]

I would summarize the changes as follows:

 

1.)Fun aoe splash damage and knockback with crushing blow which might be useful for trash mobs and a few select flashpoint encounters (the kaon under siege trash mob "boss), but is utterly useless for end game single target tanking and represents a mere novelty unworthy of a 31 point talent.

 

2.)Single target threat boost that's entirely unnecessary (if you can't hold single target threat in this game with ANY tank, there's a gear or skill problem), and brings with it horrible nerfs to crushing blow and backhand (which seems like it's taken a 40% hit to damage).

 

3.)Backhand doesn't cost rage. Who cares? It's on a minute cooldown ... we needed another big hitting ability, not a damage nerf when we already had the lowest dps amongst tanks. And if you're that far up into immortal, you probably took revenge and sweeping whatever it is, which means you have zero rage problems. None at all. What you have is a ton of rage and nothing to spend it on but vicious slash, which by the way, now hits a single target for about as much as crushing blow.

 

4.)The change to single saber mastery hurts our white damage output, which sucks, as we do primarily white damage. What's even worse, we can't skip it because 3 of blade barricade's defense boosts have been moved to a dps tree skill. Yay. Six points to get the same benefit we got before with three. And don't tell me single saber mastery also gives us better aoe threat ... what good is aoe threat when our aoe damage abilities are so small in range? If you needed to tank a group, it could be managed with skill, plus good groups use cc on high level mobs anyway. Aoe threat improvements do nothing for end game tanking.

 

5.)The new smash ability is awesome. So. awesome. Even spending one point provides a huge benefit to aoe tanking and lets you get the armor debuff on a mob or single target up within the first few seconds. In fact, it's so great, it renders crushing blow redundant. Does the same thing, shorter cooldown, less rage, and basically the same damage PLUS it's pure yellow aoe damage, no need for five stacks to trigger.

 

6.)They fixed Sonic Barrier. I think. I'm really not sure. It's a useful ability. Too bad the skills that buff it (shortened cooldown, bleed) are in other skill tree(s).

 

CONCLUSION

 

The immortal tree is utterly and completely broken. You can go hybrid and pick up most of the tanking stuff, but the problem is that all the rage generators are high in the immortal tree ... the skill level required to tank with a hybrid spec is FAR greater because rage management is so much more difficult. If you're not getting your force scream, impale, or execute off as soon as they are off cooldown due to rage issues then you should have just stuck with immortal.

 

Sure, hybrid tanking is viable (and, frankly, better on paper), but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't EXTREMELY more difficult in certain areas ... particularly if you take impale and its four rage cost in an attempt to preserve some measure of dps. Basically with hybrid, if you don't know your rotations, you're going to be rage starved and ineffective a lot of the time. That's really the only downside to hybrid (as it does more damage and is actually tankier), but it's a big one. Given the low damage output in the immortal tree, and the difficulty of rage management if you go hybrid, I see effective juggernaut tanking as having a high barrier to entry at the moment.

 

Your two choices with 1.3 if you want to tank juggernaut are:

 

1.)A severely gimped (in terms of damage) immortal specced melee tank that has 1.3 buffed in useless areas, but which has no rage issues and possesses basically the exact same survivability as 1.2, or

 

2.)A hybrid tank that at least preserves, but probably improves, upon the damage output of a 1.2 immortal specced tank, has better survivability than a 1.3 immortal specced tank, but which is going to have a very high energy and skill requirement in terms of rage management.

 

These are not good choices.

 

Completely agree.

 

Most importantly, neither of those 2 choices are fun to play. Jugg went from satisfying and fun to play to broken and boring.

[vandana_]

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

 

Well using your logic - if better damage isn't important, skills hitting diminishing returns and useless abilities from Immortal tree aren't important either. As you said before - we start to overgear the current content anyway. Also why do you say you don't have better survivability in hybrid - do you have any logs to prove it? I already tanked EC HM in it and had no issues whatsoever. You have to be careful with rage which, frankly, makes things somewhat interesting in comparison to current Immortal idiot-mode.

 

That being said, both those specs are broken ATM, hybrid is unintended and immortal is a joke. Boring, broken, testament to incompetence and listening to moaning crowds.

Edited June 29, 2012 by vandana_

[Craxim]

Well using your logic - if better damage isn't important, skills hitting diminishing returns and useless abilities from Immortal tree aren't important either. As you said before - we start to overgear the current content anyway. Also why do you say you don't have better survivability in hybrid - do you have any logs to prove it? I already tanked EC HM in it and had no issues whatsoever. You have to be careful with rage which, frankly, makes things somewhat interesting in comparison to current Immortal idiot-mode.

 

That being said, both those specs are broken ATM, hybrid is unintended and immortal is a joke. Boring, broken, testament to incompetence and listening to moaning crowds.

 

You tanking in HM EC doesn't mean it has better survivability. Define which skills hit DR please?

[Sykomyke]

^ This ^

 

A good question because even though Chilling Scream being free is nice, its not worth alone 2 points in the Immortal tree.

 

Well, I agree with a lot of points in this thread. (I think Immortal has been curb-stomped by the devs for some unknown reason) However, the new chilling scream talent, while it looks underwhelming, is very very VERY useful for PvP.

 

Previously it reduced the force cost of backhand and chilling scream to 1 and 0 respectively. Now backhand is a free skill, and chilling scream is still free with the talent.

 

The difference is you now have chilling scream trigger 1/2 the global cooldown it did before. This is HUGE. HUGE.

 

Anything that disrespects or alters the GCD is pure gold in MMO's. Now for every 2 chilling screams you throw out in a fight (be it PvP or PvE, though PvP will see far more mileage) you are gaining a global cooldown you didn't in 1.2.

 

Assuming that in a 10 second period in 1.2 you were attacking enemies constantly you had 10 moves with the very first and 9th move being used by chilling scream to keep your enemies slowed. That left you 8 attacks to deal damage with.

 

Now after 1.3, using the same amount of time you will have 11 moves in a 10 second period. Effectively gaining one GCD to attack with. Since we can't presume what your damage is based upon skill usage, buffs, gear, etc. We can only assume that one GCD is equal to another in terms of raw DPS.

 

In laymens terms: It theoretically gives you a 9% increase in overall damage if you choose this talent.

[vandana_]

You tanking in HM EC doesn't mean it has better survivability.

 

Well, your statement that it's ridiculous to think so doesn't mean it does not have it.

 

Lets see the defensive skills in both trees.

Immortal:

- Shield specialization: 4% Shield chance

- Dark Blood: Endure pain 5 seconds longer and 4% less elemental/internal damage

Vengeance:

- Unstoppable: 20% less damage for 4 seconds after Force Charge

- Deafening Defense: 4% less damage from all sources + 15% using Enraged Defense

- all damage increasing skills cause higher bubble values from Sonic Barrier, most notably Dreadnaught and even Savagery if you want to go for it. Vengeance lets you bubble more often.

 

I would say that Immortal is more flexible (you can't get Deafening Defense if you want Shield Specialization so you are left without 4% damage reduction for elemental/internal damage enemies). But better? If so, slightly and only on Firebrand & Stormcaller where you need that flexibility. Field respec is in the game now so respec for this particular fight is not a problem. Besides, there is still a question - is 4% shield chance or 4% all damage reduction + more absorption from bubble better? I'd agree that shield chance but nothing gamebreaking (there is still that 15% Enrage Defense + Taunt cooldown which is completely stupid but quite effective).

 

Define which skills hit DR please?

 

I shouldn't have said DR. My point is you have skills that are effectively useless because of how much rage and sunder stacks they generate if you take them all which you will have to do in Immortal spec from the lack of other options. So you are putting points that can be used more effectively (for single target mobs) there. Eg. Crushing Fist and Improved Sundering Assault let you apply 5 stacks of Sunder Armor without using Crushing Blow (did I mention that CB is useless?). all abilities reducing rage cost + free Backhand + Sweeping Fury cause you never to be rage starved... At this point you start spamming Vicious Slash because there is nothing better to spend this rage on. Is spamming Vicious Slash a compelling rotation to you?

 

Let me also ask you a question. What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Immortal is the way to go because of arguably better defense than hybrid? In the end you may be right but that doesn't change the fact that vengeance is still viable and to say it's ridiculous to say it has better defense should be backed with some logs.

 

You have also said it's unnecessary to go hybrid. Well I hate new Immortal and CB especially so much that I refuse to play it.

 

The only way to go for a serious endgame tank right now is to roll Assassin/Powertech because Juggernaut is broken in any spec you want to play it.

Edited June 29, 2012 by vandana_

[TSDx]

This was a nerf pure and simple. I agree with one of the posters above. This patch does nothing to help Juggernauts on single target Ops encounters. I was easily holding single target aggro before on any encounter, and I'm easily holding single target aggro now. Benefit? 0. EC is a 2 tank operation. CC to stun some of the champions, and a second tank to pick up some of the small fries renders any boost to AoE aggro a moot point. Not to mention a high end DPS is STILL going to rip on those extra adds. Benefit in raids is 0. Benefit in PvP is -42215643653267 squared.

 

I can't begin to describe how retarded this was. Threat issues? Gee how about you just make guard syphon 10-20% of the threat generated by the recipient to the tank and forgo all the ridiculous and unneeded nerfs that provided me with 0 benefit?

 

Armor debuffs no longer stack, making the change to smash useless on single target encounters, and even worse in raids.

 

Bioware went in the wrong direction with these changes.

Edited June 29, 2012 by TSDx

[Harey]

You do not have better survivability as hybrid. That notion is ridiculous. Tank DPS shouldn't be required to beat any enrage currently in the game, the hybrid's better damage is pointless.

 

While enjoying most of your posts i'm confused about the statement above.

 

The only talents a hybrid 18/23 build can not get are shield specialisation and inner peace , they are i.m.o. fairly weak talents to begin with and the trade off you get in a hybrid spec more than makes up for them.

 

Shield Specialisation is a good skill to have when your leveling/still upgrading most of your gear - once your mostly blackhole you will have more than enough points in shielding to make it a fairly pointless investment

 

Inner Peace is one of the worst talents high up on any of the tanking trees , a pitiful 4 percent from internal and elemental damage.

 

In comparison a hybrid tank build gets a great skill in commanding awe - a flat 4 percent reduction from all types of damage and a 15 percent damage reduction every 45 seconds( this works fairly well in conjunction with taunt and the flat agro increase of 1.3 )

 

On top of that a hybrid can produce faster blade baricades than a pure 31pt defence build.

 

I just don't understand how you are maintaining that the 31pt defence build has actually more survivability .

 

The only real problem with the Hybrid is occasional focus starvation if you mess up your attacks , but as you seem to profess that a tank does not need to do any real dps this should not be problem.

 

This post is not an attack and i'm sorry if it comes across as such , I personally hate the animation for overhead slash and would gladly respec back into a full 31pt defence build but the top tiers of the defence tree are extremely poor and i.m.o next to useless in comparison to the options available in the other trees.

 

I'd also dispute that patch 1.3 has improved the overall tanking experience , the flat agro increase has i.m.o only succeeded in dumbing down the overall skill level required ( not much was needed before but its even less now )

 

Sorry for the guardian terms in a Sith Forum but i'm at work and i couldn't remember the sith talents.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Harey

[Craxim]

While enjoying most of your posts i'm confused about the statement above.

 

The only talents a hybrid 18/23 build can not get are shield specialisation and inner peace , they are i.m.o. fairly weak talents to begin with and the trade off you get in a hybrid spec more than makes up for them.

 

Shield Specialisation is a good skill to have when your leveling/still upgrading most of your gear - once your mostly blackhole you will have more than enough points in shielding to make it a fairly pointless investment

 

Inner Peace is one of the worst talents high up on any of the tanking trees , a pitiful 4 percent from internal and elemental damage.

 

In comparison a hybrid tank build gets a great skill in commanding awe - a flat 4 percent reduction from all types of damage and a 15 percent damage reduction every 45 seconds( this works fairly well in conjunction with taunt and the flat agro increase of 1.3 )

 

On top of that a hybrid can produce faster blade baricades than a pure 31pt defence build.

 

I just don't understand how you are maintaining that the 31pt defence build has actually more survivability .

 

The only real problem with the Hybrid is occasional focus starvation if you mess up your attacks , but as you seem to profess that a tank does not need to do any real dps this should not be problem.

 

This post is not an attack and i'm sorry if it comes across as such , I personally hate the animation for overhead slash and would gladly respec back into a full 31pt defence build but the top tiers of the defence tree are extremely poor and i.m.o next to useless in comparison to the options available in the other trees.

 

I'd also dispute that patch 1.3 has improved the overall tanking experience , the flat agro increase has i.m.o only succeeded in dumbing down the overall skill level required ( not much was needed before but its even less now )

 

Sorry for the guardian terms in a Sith Forum but i'm at work and i couldn't remember the sith talents.

 

Shield Spec is way better than you think it is, 4% shield + 4% internal and elemental is just as good as 4% flat damage reduction, especially when you factor in your absorb rating. The 15% damage reduction from the CD is unnecessary as Juggs/Guards already have good CD's and your healers shouldn't need you to be using that off CD.

 

You can produce Sonic Barriers slightly faster, but the damage it mitigates is very very minimal over a fight as long as HM Kephiss. The only real problem with hybrid is the main problem with hybrid, it is hard to manage rage, and the damage you gain shouldn't be necessary for your raid.

 

Hybrid: Same or very close to the same survivability as Immortal, hard to manage rage, unnecessary damage increase.

 

Immortal: Easy to manage rage, AoE Crushing Blow, same or close to the same survivability as Hybrid, lower damage that doesn't matter because you're a tank.

 

What's the point in going hybrid? It's unnecessary, and since most likely BW will eventually change the Immortal spec to be the "be all end all" tanking spec as it should've been from 1.0, it's best to get used to it in my opinion.

 

If someone wants to play hybrid, I say go for it, but don't pretend it's better than Immortal, and don't pretend it's necessary as it was in 1.0. Not that you are, I'm just saying in general.