Holy Shadow Nerf! (1.3 PTS)

[Leafy_Bug]

Nerfs kill off rerollers, not good players.

 

Spoken like a true PVP-er. While you were hitting 6k on squishy targets in pvp, my guild was amongst the first to clear denova SM with a shadow tank. Thank you and please see the whole picture and do not offer advice based only on PVP.

[Xinika]

1v1? Well these changes could just about swing it in favour of balance/infil again.

 

No, they still don't. If anything Infil got hit the hardest due to the adrenals/relic changes. Overall, KC is still a stronger spec than both balance and infil in pvp. People who depend on TK (lol) will feel the nerf, others who played KC like it was supposed to be will still dominate.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Xinika

[NeverRose]

Spoken like a true PVP-er. While you were hitting 6k on squishy targets in pvp, my guild was amongst the first to clear denova SM with a shadow tank. Thank you and please see the whole picture and do not offer advice based only on PVP.

 

 

Cleared what with who sorry?

 

 

Oh, wait it's PvE.

 

 

 

People who depend on TK (lol) will feel the nerf, others who played KC like it was supposed to be will still dominate.

 

+1

Edited June 7, 2012 by NeverRose

[Xienive]

But that added survivability doesn't help them do as much damage as an Infil/Balance shadow. And damage - which if they are wearing DPS gear and not playing the tank role - is what it is about no?

 

Infiltration sucks, period. You are going to be a first target, you are losing your relics and adrenals, you don't have any gap closer since you have no force pull yet you need to be in the 4m range to build procs, you won't be able to solo defend a node...a Sentinel can do EVERYTHING better than you. Basically nobody is going to take an Infiltration Shadow with them in a rated WZ if the team is any good when they could have a Sent, GS, or Vanguard for DPS.

 

Balance, will give you high numbers if nobody attacks you...but you will still be squishy as it gets. And why would you take a balance Shadow in a rated WZ when you could have a balance Sage? Or another DPS class listed above with better survivability, gapcloser and DPS?

 

Believe me, I wish both specs were good and yes you can live and do alright with both specs in the average WZ. It doesn't change the fact tho that both are useless in rated, and inferior to most other DPS specs in game.

[Magnesium]

Spoken like a true PVP-er. While you were hitting 6k on squishy targets in pvp, my guild was amongst the first to clear denova SM with a shadow tank. Thank you and please see the whole picture and do not offer advice based only on PVP.

 

I've tanked EC HM and honestly I think the healers in our guild said how the Shadow was far easier to heal over the VG and Guardian; however I would also argue that gear/skill level plays into that but I always felt the Shadow was the best end-game tank, these changes WILL prevent that statement being entirely true; however, I always felt I was an easier tank to heal because I had some good cooldowns useable at the right times.

 

For PvE purposes I feel the nerf on Tele and Stance heal is too much, at least keep the Tele Heal as it was imo.

[Magnesium]

Infiltration sucks, period.

 

That statement is so far from the truth, the class is still very viable and I miss the burst from that class when I see healers not being killed by others (burst regardless of relics). The problem is moreso how people use Infil spec, BUT and it is a major thing, the class does NEED a buff, but sucks .... it does not.

[Xinika]

Infiltration sucks, period. You are going to be a first target, you are losing your relics and adrenals, you don't have any gap closer since you have no force pull yet you need to be in the 4m range to build procs, you won't be able to solo defend a node...a Sentinel can do EVERYTHING better than you. Basically nobody is going to take an Infiltration Shadow with them in a rated WZ if the team is any good when they could have a Sent, GS, or Vanguard for DPS.

 

Truth. Has been for months and 1.3 will seal this case shut.

 

Balance, will give you high numbers if nobody attacks you...but you will still be squishy as it gets. And why would you take a balance Shadow in a rated WZ when you could have a balance Sage? Or another DPS class listed above with better survivability, gapcloser and DPS?

 

That's my point about Balance. It's simply an imitation. Balance Sage is more effective and or Snipers simply blow them out of the water for team effort.

 

 

Believe me, I wish both specs were good and yes you can live and do alright with both specs in the average WZ. It doesn't change the fact tho that both are useless in rated, and inferior to most other DPS specs in game.

 

It's either denial or some sort of hope. I can't decide what some people are thinking on these forums. Only thing that I wonder is if people are judging by pug-stomping.

[Xienive]

That statement is so far from the truth, the class is still very viable and I miss the burst from that class when I see healers not being killed by others (burst regardless of relics). The problem is moreso how people use Infil spec, BUT and it is a major thing, the class does NEED a buff, but sucks .... it does not.

 

lol ok

[Sookster]

Shadows were already pretty much considered the worst choice for end-game PvE tanking because they are the easiest to get gibbed. They had the least armor, the little self heals don't mean much when you're taking big boss damage, and their shield mechanic isn't as reliable.

 

Oh quite the opposite, shadow/assassin makes the BEST tank in endgame raid/hardmodes, after 1.3 that won't be the case.

[JediMasterBurst]

Shadow

 

•Shadow Strike now displays the correct error message if this ability is used while player is not behind the target.

 

•Combat Technique now generates 100% additional threat while active. The healing generated by this ability has been reduced by approximately 50%. Its armor bonus has been reduced to 115% (down from 150%).

 

•Force Breach (Combat Technique) now generates a high amount of threat.

 

•Spinning Kick now costs 20 Force.

 

•Battle Readiness now increases the damage and healing dealt by all Techniques by 100% for 15 seconds.

 

Kinetic Combat

 

•Slow Time no longer damages a sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemy unless it is the primary target.

 

•Harnessed Shadows: The healing generated by Telekinetic Throw has been reduced to 8% total (down from 12%).

 

I can tell you guys, that this nerf will only play a small role in the Shadow viability, mostly because the self healing by shadows is small enough in general that at most we were healing less than 2% of health per second at level 50. So basicly, it dropped our healing from 2% per second down to 1% per second on average. A Shadow can make up for that easily in PVE with a med pack, stim pack, or a defensive buff.

[Sookster]

Balance, will give you high numbers if nobody attacks you...but you will still be squishy as it gets. And why would you take a balance Shadow in a rated WZ when you could have a balance Sage? Or another DPS class listed above with better survivability, gapcloser and DPS?

 

I like my madness assassin, I don't have much trouble in pvp and usually top in damage chart and probably will be taking it in rated wz's too, I have more trouble in survivability with my pyro merc than my madness assassin- thank god for creeping terror root, force speed anc cloak.

[Sookster]

I can tell you guys, that this nerf will only play a small role in the Shadow viability, mostly because the self healing by shadows is small enough in general that at most we were healing less than 2% of health per second at level 50. So basicly, it dropped our healing from 2% per second down to 1% per second on average. A Shadow can make up for that easily in PVE with a med pack, stim pack, or a defensive buff.

 

I don't think the problem is the healing changes, I think the problem is the armor value getting reduced to squishiness.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Sookster

[Xienive]

I like my madness assassin, I don't have much trouble in pvp and usually top in damage chart and probably will be taking it in rated wz's too, I have more trouble in survivability with my pyro merc than my madness assassin- thank god for creeping terror root, force speed anc cloak.

 

If you have fun and do well more power to you. It's just in my eyes from experience in WZ's I couldn't justify bringing one over another DPS type if I was dead set on doing the best I could in rated. And that is the biggest point I am trying to make here.

[KeyboardNinja]

Oh quite the opposite, shadow/assassin makes the BEST tank in endgame raid/hardmodes, after 1.3 that won't be the case.

 

This. People not taking advantage of kinetic shadows in PvE right now are really missing out. The truth is that we *need* a nerf, it's just a question of whether or not this was an appropriate level of nerfing. Specifically: 6.6% more damage taken, and 90 HPS less self-heal (at max gear). I can tell you right now that the 6.6% mitigation reduction puts us right in line with 1.2 Guardians (actually, just a hair ahead). How the self-heal will interact, I can't really say. Someone needs to PuG a nightmare mode / hard mode EC on the PTS so we can get some actual numbers and anecdotes.

[OysterCatcherr]

That's my point about Balance. It's simply an imitation. Balance Sage is more effective and or Snipers simply blow them out of the water for team effort.

 

Why are you comparing balance shadows to balance sages when they perform completely different roles? As I said in the other thread, a balance shadow is still a stealth melee class which can launch surprise attacks - even if it does have the added utility of range attacks - whereas a balance sage is effectively a turret that is easily shut down when playing against quality opposition.

 

Sure, uninterrupted a balance sage will be able to put up higher numbers than a balance shadow, but you are talking about rated warzones - and any team of quality will go straight for the high damage/low survivability/low mobility turrets like sages and gunslingers straight away.

[KeyboardNinja]

That's my point about Balance. It's simply an imitation. Balance Sage is more effective and or Snipers simply blow them out of the water for team effort.

 

I absolutely agree with you in PvP. However, in PvE, balance shadows are insanely good. Our regular raid group uses both a balance shadow and a watchman sentinel, and our balance shadow usually sits dead even with the sentinel in terms of average DPS (1400 - 1500). I have no idea how she gets her numbers that high (I certainly can't match that in my balance spec), but I've seen numerous parses across different operations.

 

I've never seen a balance sage parse (I just don't run with DPS sages very often). Obviously, they have the advantage of being a ranged class, but they also suffer from the *disadvantage* of an extremely force-negative rotation. A well-played balance shadow is almost never going to run out of force, particularly if they're cutting out Twin Disciplines (our balance shadow *does* use Twin Disciplines). Every balance sage I've ever run with always ends up force starved by the end of the fight.

 

Again, this is PvE and not PvP, but don't throw out your balance specs just yet. They're really really good, just not against other players!

 

Infil on the other hand… :-)

[SvnStrSlm]

Maybe I'm crazy for asking but has anyone even tried HM/NM Ops on PTS? (Hears crickets) Yeah, thats what I thought.

[nicolasMVP]

Maybe I'm crazy for asking but has anyone even tried HM/NM Ops on PTS? (Hears crickets) Yeah, thats what I thought.

 

we were too busy QQing, sorry

[BroadStreetBully]

Yup, totally in line!

 

- Significantly lower armor than all other tanks

- Significantly lower damage reduction than all other tanks

- A healing ability that's now hilariously gimped, and which doesn't really matter anyway when a crit one/two shots you because you're essentially tanking as a Sage.

 

And I'm not unsubbing because of a nerf. I'm unsubbing specifically because I'm not going to be able to find parties any longer.

 

What game are you playing? Significantly lower damage reduction? I generally have better damage reduction that any other tanks because I have high defense, shield, and absorb. Other tanks don't have that. Instead, they have heavy armor to help mitigate the difference. The armor difference is now noticable for shadow tanks. Previously the buff was so large that due to diminishing returns, shadows essentially had heavy armor. This nerf brings us in line with the other tanks. As a PvE shadow tank, I have no problem with these nerfs. I'd love to have the old stats, but in the name of balancing classes, I can live with this.

[zegota]

What game are you playing? Significantly lower damage reduction? I generally have better damage reduction that any other tanks because I have high defense, shield, and absorb. Other tanks don't have that. Instead, they have heavy armor to help mitigate the difference. The armor difference is now noticable for shadow tanks. Previously the buff was so large that due to diminishing returns, shadows essentially had heavy armor. This nerf brings us in line with the other tanks. As a PvE shadow tank, I have no problem with these nerfs. I'd love to have the old stats, but in the name of balancing classes, I can live with this.

 

Defense is practically useless against high end PvE content, since it only affects "white" damage. And Vanguards have much higher shield and absorb.

 

shadows essentially had heavy armor.

 

Indeed. And now we're essentially equivalent to a Medium Armored DPS that can taunt. And how often do you hear people wanting Sentinels to tank?

Edited June 7, 2012 by zegota

[KeyboardNinja]

Defense is practically useless against high end PvE content, since it only affects "white" damage. And Vanguards have much higher shield and absorb.

 

Look at some parses. Defense is phenomenally useful in high end PvE, as is shield. Most damage (70-75%) in PvE is white damage. The only exception to this is if you're being constantly relegated to tanking the bosses that use force/tech+kinetic/energy attacks, in which case your raid leader needs to study his theory charts a bit more closely.

 

Putting numbers to this. Nightmare Karagga does about 1480 DPS of unmitigated *white* damage (he does several other attacks that are not white damage, but they only make up 25% ish percent of his overall DPS). At a defense rating of 26%, my defense is statistically worth 384.8 DPS worth of mitigation. That's almost 10 times the amount of mitigation accounted for by the armor nerf on the same fight. Far from useless.

 

Indeed. And now we're essentially equivalent to a Medium Armored DPS that can taunt. And how often do you hear people wanting Sentinels to tank?

 

Medium armor, with *crazy* high shield/absorb and very high defense. Oh, and self-heals. If it's not balanced, it's pretty darn close.

Edited June 7, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[KarethRiker]

I've never played Force In Balance, how do the changes affect the self-healing of that spec. Will that be the new preferred tanking spec 28/0/13?

 

 

I'm with that. I always preferred the hybrid with FiB, but specifically ran 31 KC to get the Slow Time snare. I'll run with my preferred spec and still melt faces...so I don't care too much.

 

I lothe PVE....so I don't care about that impact...but I don't like seeing the PVE'rs suffer cuz of PVP QQ. That's just weak, imo.

[BroadStreetBully]

Defense is practically useless against high end PvE content, since it only affects "white" damage. And Vanguards have much higher shield and absorb.

 

 

 

Indeed. And now we're essentially equivalent to a Medium Armored DPS that can taunt. And how often do you hear people wanting Sentinels to tank?

 

Defense is anything but useless. It is incredibly useful. And if you want to talk about Force/Tech damage, then shadow already is better than the other specs, so I still don't see what your point is.

Edited June 7, 2012 by BroadStreetBully

[KeyboardNinja]

And if you want to talk about Force/Tech damage, then shadow already is better than the other specs, so I still don't see what your point is.

 

Well, that's not really true. Force/tech+kinetic/energy attacks are the shadow's weak points, since our only survivability against such attacks are armor, self-healing and Resilience (which is quite awesome, to be sure). Shadows are ahead on force/tech+internal/elemental, but only because of the 4 piece bonus.

[DarthNuke]

I've never played Force In Balance, how do the changes affect the self-healing of that spec. Will that be the new preferred tanking spec 28/0/13?

 

The only part of the 1.3 patch that effects Balance is the adrenal, relic, bio chem changes.....which hits everyone. So....Balance is unchanged. Taunts may operate a lil differently, don't know, my PTS transfer still hasn't happened.