An open letter to Bioware.

[Gunarson]

If he had made this post and omitted all of his credentials then his post may have been taken a bit more seriously.

I'll give mine. I'm not a game designer but I've been a professional journalist for the Dutch Magazine PCGameplay. I've tested games for years and wrote articles about them (preview/review) and a few walkthrouhgs. I see flaws in design, I recognise the fun factor or lack off and I tell you the OP hit the nail on top.

 

The tree classic pillars are Gameplay, graphics and sound. Out of my experience if gameplay fails, the game is doomed. It can be the most beautiful game but if the gameplay is not fun, then the game won't be a huge success. Gameplay itself however can carry the other pillars when it's really good aka my example of Minecraft, looks crap, but tons of fun and it's a success. The fourth pillar in TOR (story line with voice overs) can't carry the gameplay , especially not in what's supposed to be an MMO.

 

BW made a product, if the customers aren't happy with the product (not all ofcourse, there's a group of people who enjoy the game), then the makers of the product overestimated their product or didn't do a very good job at market research, competition and all that. The OP is expressing his thoughts on why the product in his experience isn't what it should be as he's been a customer in the industry for many years.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Gunarson

[Trenter]

So because the love posts are swarmed with haters, that somehow makes it okay to for lovers to swarm the hate posts? I use these terms very loosely, because I don't want to offend you. They're there just to provide a frame of reference that will be easily recognizable.

 

And why I keep at it? What? I've got a record of 1500+ posts, so I encourage you to do a little digging and determine just how superior I think I am or just how much anger I fuel. I'll give you a hint... not much at all.

 

Alright, sorry about the "keep at it". I'm sure you're right, can't be arsed to wade through your posts. So, why do you call people "blinder wearing fanboys" then?

Edited June 5, 2012 by Trenter

[Foofie]

I like the post OP.

 

But you do not need to be a game developer, an analyst, a Writer or even a pastry chef to realize that with a community like this.

 

A person or persons will always find something wrong with your post.

 

If you didn't provide some background, you would have been asked "And what gives you the right to comment? Are you a game developer?!?!11one!!" Or something really off the wall like "Once you become a game developer then come back to me with your post." LOL really?

 

Or since you provided your credentials, you will get responses like "And what gives you the right to comment? Are you a game developer?!?!11one!!" Or something really off the wall like "Once you become a game developer then come back to me with your post."

 

Or if you ARE a Game developer, you will get all of those people who have the "same" experience derailing you because you don't do something they do, or will tell you that since you don't work for Bioware that you have no idea, or tell you that you are straight up lying.

 

Or the ever famous "SS or it didn't happen"

 

ya see, either way you are going to get the same grief from some of the folks in a forum community. That is the way with any community forums. There are always computer commandos out there who know everything and all OPs are those that know nothing.

 

It's just the way of the world.

 

With that being said, I would guess a majority of us know trolls and rage posts etc. I was speaking of posts like the OP's

 

 

Again, Great post.

[Pcolapat]

When you preface a post with your experience, you are trying to establish some credibility. Fine, but once your actual message begins and it reads like stuff I have already heard on these forums before from other gamers who claimed no professional insight, I return to the aforementioned statements of experience and question it. Then I see that you misspelled organization and decide not to go there unless I am called a fanboy. If you don't want to open yourself up to harsh criticism, don't come off like you are some sort of expert. There are players on this forum who have real world experience that is far more relevant to game design, but you don't see them posting resumes before each of their posts to try and bolster their points. Post as a gamer and keep it real.

[Dezzi]

Alright, sorry about the "keep at it". I'm sure you're right, can't be arsed to wade through your posts. So, why do you call people "blinder wearing fanboys" then?

 

Because what happened in this thread was a very poignant example of what drives people on both sides of the debate crazy; here we have a post that was very constructive and helpful in tenor, yet a subset of people zeroed in on one sentence--which was completely irrelevant to the points made in the OP--threatening to derail the entire thread and thus relegate the OP to the locked thread list.

 

That's why.

 

The grandstanding deserved some big (read: colorful) words to bring attention to how stupidly the discussion was being derailed. Judging by the change of tone in the thread, I can only hope I helped keep the OP relevant.

[alastairc]

misspelled organization .

 

In the UK, we spell it "organisation".

 

I appreciate it's different in the US.

[Dezzi]

When you preface a post with your experience, you are trying to establish some credibility. Fine, but once your actual message begins and it reads like stuff I have already heard on these forums before from other gamers who claimed no professional insight, I return to the aforementioned statements of experience and question it. Then I see that you misspelled organization and decide not to go there unless I am called a fanboy. If you don't want to open yourself up to harsh criticism, don't come off like you are some sort of expert. There are players on this forum who have real world experience that is far more relevant to game design, but you don't see them posting resumes before each of their posts to try and bolster their points. Post as a gamer and keep it real.

 

He did post like a gamer--he told you he's been gaming for a while. Why make such a big deal about it? Why can't you just take his points at face value instead of resorting to the character smear campaign that completely misses the point of the post?

 

I wager it's because his points are valid and by accepting the very non-critical and helpfully constructive tone of the OP, you necessarily have to accept that the game is faulted--which it is. Could that be why?

Edited June 5, 2012 by Dezzi

[Arkerus]

I agree and disagree somehow.

 

Yes, the fact that there's no reward for doing owPvP is one of the reasons it doesn't happen much. Most of the players nowadays prefer to do content in an "efficient" way so they prefer to leveling fast questing or in warzones than "wasting" time chasing players of the other faction.

 

But it is the fault of the designers to have built planets that way and thus reduces at min the chances of confrontation between factions. Players in this MMO aren't really different than players in other MMOs, if the behaviour is different it's because the game and its systems are different.

They should have mixed the leveling areas, with quest hubs for both factions in the same area, the road between hubs should go close to the other factions hubs or questing areas.

 

While you may be correct about the design of the worlds its very easy to to blame that and move on. I have a different opinion on that.

 

Bioware's vision of the game does not put the factions at many crossroads. That's a design done on purpose. Again, we have the issue of judging the game on what it isn't instead of what it is.

 

The fact of the matter is if you want a game where the opposing factions (for some strange reason) built bases 50 feet from eachother, then this is not that game. That was not and probably won't even be Bioware's vision of the game.

 

This is not a world PvP intensive game and I don't expect it to be.

[RangerBeo]

Great Post OP I think you stated clearly the issues with the game at this time and I agree with your post.

[Arkerus]

I'll give mine. I'm not a game designer but I've been a professional journalist for the Dutch Magazine PCGameplay. I've tested games for years and wrote articles about them (preview/review) and a few walkthrouhgs. I see flaws in design, I recognise the fun factor or lack off and I tell you the OP hit the nail on top.

 

The tree classic pillars are Gameplay, graphics and music. Out of my experience if gameplay fails, the game is doomed. It can be the most beautiful game but if the gameplay is not fun, then the game won't be a huge success. Gameplay itself however can carry the other pillars when it's really good aka my example of Minecraft, looks crap, but tons of fun and it's a success. The fourth pillar in TOR (story line with voice overs) can't carry the gameplay , especially not in what's supposed to be an MMO.

 

BW made a product, if the customers aren't happy with the product (not all ofcourse, there's a group of people who enjoy the game), then the makers of the product overestimated their product or didn't do a very good job at market research, competition and all that. The OP is expressing his thoughts on why the product in his experience isn't what it should be as he's been a customer in the industry for many years.

 

I'm not sure we agree on what gameplay is. Gameplay to me is the way the game is presented and reacts to player input.

 

As far as that goes, except for the bugs in the engine, the gameplay is fine. It is presented well and the player has significant control over his/her character.

The story isn't hiding any gameplay flaws. If you want to talk about content, that is a different discussion.

[Gungan]

Glad to see there are other people out there that see that gameplay is the no. 1 most important factor in game design. Duh.

 

SWTOR is simply lacking in satisfying gameplay. Also, why am I still getting ability cast delay? Seriously BW?

 

Story cannot carry a game on its own (see Force Unleashed).

Edited June 5, 2012 by Gungan

[Trenter]

I can only hope I helped keep the OP relevant.

 

Well, you didn't. I thought it was good and well-written critique, and I might have commented on it, but got distracted by your name calling, which in turn led me to derail the thread even further...

[Dezzi]

Well, you didn't. I thought it was good and well-written critique, and I might have commented on it, but got distracted by your name calling, which in turn led me to derail the thread even further...

 

Glad it's settled then.

[Pcolapat]

He did post like a gamer--he told you he's been gaming for a while. Why make such a big deal about it? Why can't you just take his points at face value instead of resorting to the character smear campaign that completely misses the point of the post?

 

I wager it's because his points are valid and by accepting the very non-critical and helpfully constructive tone of the OP, you necessarily have to accept that the game is faulted--which it is. Could that be why?

 

If the OP wanted me to take his post at face value, why the need to post his professional experience? You don't go to a museum and see the artists diplomas hanging next to their artwork. I did read his post, and each point he made has already been thoroughly discussed on these forums. The only thing I felt like commenting on was the point that he thought it necessary to mention his credentials. for that I am called a fanboy and someone who can't accept reality. Please get a life.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Pcolapat

[Ska-Di]

If the above aren't clearly being addressed, I expect I'll move on to the next MMO...

 

You've lost me here...

 

Can I haz ur stuff?

[Pargon]

In the UK, we spell it "organisation".

 

I appreciate it's different in the US.

 

 

As an aside, this cracked me up.

 

 

I enjoyed the post OP. I think gear being outmoded by new tiers of difficulty/gear is the nature of the mmo in most cases, but I agree with most of your points otherwise.

 

Legacy is the biggest thing for me. I loathe that it is a money sink. I cannot stand daily quests in any mmo so I've never had more than two million credits to my name. I hate that the legacy "bonuses" feel like a purchase and not a bonus I unlocked by playing. I've yet to buy anything because I'm poor! And since I mainly run operations and pvp in warzones, my money does not increase.

[turjake]

I'll give mine. I'm not a game designer but I've been a professional journalist for the Dutch Magazine PCGameplay. I've tested games for years and wrote articles about them (preview/review) and a few walkthrouhgs. I see flaws in design, I recognise the fun factor or lack off and I tell you the OP hit the nail on top.

 

Problem is, in my opinion, that when you read the OP:s list quickly it sounds about right. But when you start reading his points, some of his analysis is quite shallow or dont hit the nail at all.

 

For example:

4. The Legacy system fails to offer incentives to play, it's just a money sink

They just started with it, give them time maybe?

 

5. Queue times for Battleground PvP content are artificially longer than necessary

Uhh, what? You are saying that someone at Bioware wants people to stay in queue? well, he explained something about cross server queues but those are coming too as far as I know.

 

7. The experiment with a world event in the Rakghoul Plague had no follow up

Again, that was the first one. They already said that they are going to do more in the future so what is the problem, except that you want it now?

 

Other than that, he seems to assume that people who play this game all have similar motives for playing.

 

But enough about OP, I agree that the gameplay is important part of mmorpgs, or any computer games. On the other hand those few mmorpg:s I have tried, this one has quite a good immersion. Maybe it is because of the voice quests or relatively good stories but you need the gameplay elements too to keep playing.

 

How to make a billion dollar/euro game then? That is the question and in my opinion the answer is not (just) hiring someone who has played 20 years of mmorpgs to design it

 

Point is that you will need other skills too than experienced raiding/pvp.

[Frostvein]

If the OP wanted me to take his post at face value, why the need to post his professional experience?

 

Because some people (who shall remain nameless) belittle him for not having any experience?

 

/5char

[Dezzi]

If the OP wanted me to take his post at face value, why the need to post his professional experience? You don't go to a museum and see the artists diplomas hanging next to their artwork. I did read his post, and each point he made has already been thoroughly discussed on these forums. The only thing I felt like commenting on was the point that he thought it necessary to mention his credentials. for that I am called a fanboy and someone who can't accept reality. Please get a life.

 

I hope you realize the irony of you--posting on a gaming forum so adamantly against the "credentials" of an anonymous poster--telling me to get a life.

[Brappo]

I for one am losing interest in the game fast. They really need to do something quickly before the game is dead. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks this way. Considering the server I am on use to have many people on the Fleet and never a WZ queue longer than a few seconds, now has a WZ queue that never pops and maybe 7 people on the Fleet.

[NerOTheUnloved]

i agree with the OP but i also think that ppl need to understand that "haters gonna' hate". i was going to write something like this myself but obviously was beaten to it. I just want to add that i think BW needs to just listen to the ppl that say "hey here is an idea i have about the game....." instead of listening to "HEY BW FIX THIS **** OR IM LEAVING" lets face fact your cant please everyone, some ppl are going to enjoy playing pandas and pokemon, im sure there are still a few ppl playing EQ even some ppl playing the og guild wars. everyone is going to like different things, if you dont like this game leave, are there things i dont like about this game? yes do i personally think that the good out weighs the bad? yes, thats why im still here and plan on being here for awhile. this is just my 2 cents and im sure someone is going to flame this but i just felt like saying what i had to say.

[alastairc]

I for one am losing interest in the game fast. They really need to do something quickly before the game is dead. And I am sure I am not the only one that thinks this way.

 

I think this is a very valid point. MMO companies seem to underestimate their player expectations for new content and game fixes... Bioware actually have a very small window of opportunity to shift the downward spiral of SWTOR, before they lose their audience; we're talking weeks not months. I worry that aren't treating the situation as crisis management, when commercially speaking they really should be. I worry that this may be a sign of the company's inexperience in the MMO market compared with static game releases - that the date of an MMOs release is when the tension and pace steps up, not down.

 

Addressing issues strategically, in early redesign, and in customer communications is especially important to do immediately, given that for a game patch you may then have to allow 3 months for development time, testing and release before anything is actually delivered to your customers.

[Gunarson]

I'm not sure we agree on what gameplay is. Gameplay to me is the way the game is presented and reacts to player input.

 

As far as that goes, except for the bugs in the engine, the gameplay is fine. It is presented well and the player has significant control over his/her character.

The story isn't hiding any gameplay flaws. If you want to talk about content, that is a different discussion.

 

Gameplay is a wide range of things that make the game fun to play and wants to make you come back time and time again, addicting. This goes from game physics to character progression and what not. Sure there are good things in STOR, aswell as less good things (which has been expressed in other posts by people). To give only a few examples: static foes, no pvp ladder ranking and matchmaking system etc. They all take away from the gaming experience.

 

You mention the gameplay is fine, but it should be more than that imo.

[Urael]

I'm not a games designer. I've been a business analyst for over 10 years, and specialise in IT developments, looking at how processes work and deliver for customers and users.

 

I've played MMOs since 2005, organising Guilds and gaming communities for some of that time, and witnessed games transform as I played them to mixed critical reception. In all, I believe I have a reasonable perspective on what makes an MMO work for its players, coupled with realistic expectations around the lead time involved in designing and delivering platform change. But I'm not a games designer. I'm a player.

 

If SWTOR doesn't adapt, my opinion as a player is that it will spiral to a smaller and smaller player base and then die. Commercially, that may be acceptable to Bioware, but it seems like a missed opportunity to me. SWTOR could relatively easily adapt and maintain an MMO market share, and continue to provide revenue and a fun gaming experience.

 

There are a couple of fundamental mistakes in the game design at present:

1. Endgame content fun is limited to Battleground PvP and Operations.

2. Scaling the PvP Gear has made PvE content redundant.

 

With less dirct impact, but significant because the design has failed to deliver are the rest of my "top ten":

3. World PvP doesn't work at all

4. The Legacy system fails to offer incentives to play, it's just a money sink

5. Queue times for Battleground PvP content are artificially longer than necessary

6. Token based rewards are all itemised gear, lacking in vanity items which retain value beyond item scaling

7. The experiment with a world event in the Rakghoul Plague had no follow up

8. SWTOR lacks community management tools, encouraging players to use external tools and making it easier for them to migrate to other games

9. Change management between reward systems has been poor and demoralised players

10. Gear frequently fails to match the Star Wars tone

 

If the above aren't clearly being addressed, I expect I'll move on to the next MMO... which would be a shame, because SWTOR has several saving graces which make it a game worth saving, if you can. I hear nothing but praise for the quality and pacing of Operations, the quality and balance of the PvP Battlegrounds, the class skills and talent trees, the great visual design of the game worlds, and the excellent story-driven interface and cut-scenes.

 

So, Bioware, can you maintain that high quality whilst finding someone with the game design skills to deal with the problem areas which undermine them?

 

Not liking to present problems without some ideas about a solution, here are some thoughts:

 

1. Endgame content fun is limited to Battleground PvP and Operations: By limiting rewards to scaling gear with itemisation levels, you swiftly make the game content outside that redundant. This includes all the work the teams have done on Crafting Skills, Quests and Daily Quests, Space Battles and Flashpoints. They just don't provide any kind of useful rewards. Furthermore, the design makes them a grind for money and tokens (and possibly Social level), not an enjoyable experience you would choose to do for the fun or challenge or reward. The rewards need urgent review as a short term fix. Future content needs to be made to be fun to play and repeat, and offer an interesting and lasting choice of rewards.

 

2. Releasing the new cash-purchased level 50 PvP Gear was fine for balancing the PvP arena, but immediately rendered Tionese and lower itemisation gear redundant. For 200k you could immediately be Operation-ready and able to take on someone in full Tionese. Why have you not upped the PvE rewards to match the scaling in the PvP gear? Why would anyone now do a Flashpoint more than once, when the rewards are valueless? The PvE rewards need to scale at the same rate.

 

3. World PvP is problematic for every game you see it in. The main issues are a lack of opponents, unbalanced teams or uninspiring rewards. So, offer some decent rewards only available through World PvP for one. Then design the area to make it easy for people to get to from their main (ie: Fleet) location so it's quick to load. Design a big area with multiple objectives, so a small mobile group can still have successes, or give them a stats boost if necessary. Then offer a range of fun Daily Mission Quests which are in the PvP area but not PvP dependent to bring people back to the area actively on a regular basis. A fun PvP scenario and a few in-game graphic effects would be a bonus.

 

4. The Legacy system fails to offer incentives to play, it's just a money sink: This seems to have missed the point in implementation, and really needs a redesign. Legacy level itself should reward players who have kept on playing any and all content, as an incentive to keep playing. Crazy costs just make it painfully unappealing; do you really want to blow 2 million credits on a spurious reward, or keep that banked for Operations costs? As a money sink, it is equally daft; at best a short term fix to a bloated economy amongst a small elite of obsessive players - why make everything a static cost rather than offer recurring items of limited duration? Surely the economy will shrink once, then bloat again in the same way? Legacy should be designed to make it easier to play up alts, and reward people for doing so, encouraging people to enjoy the content without the more restrictive experience of their first levelling. And where are the fun vanity rewards? A few emotes? What about pets, roleplay gear, titles, ship cosmetics, etc? It's a missed opportunity to incentivise players to stay that just needs a strategic rethink about what it's trying to achieve.

 

5. Queue times for Battleground PvP content are artificially longer than necessary: Implement a cross-server queueing system for PvP Battlegrounds and for Flashpoints, to make it a faster experience for the players. This seems like a massive oversight, and is not market competitive with the current same-server only system.

 

6. Token based rewards are all itemised gear, lacking in vanity items which retain value beyond item scaling: More rewards should be fun, interesting, utility items, or pure vanity items (especially items with limited charges to encourage players to purchase again and again). Just offering itemised gear for the tokens you collect in PvE or PvP creates a natural cap on how long they have any value, and is entirely unnecessary.

 

7. The experiment with a world event in the Rakghoul Plague had no follow up: This came and went like a ball of confusion. It was interesting, but over in a flash, leaving in its wake a load of confused players who didn't see any ongoing references to what has happened, and were left holding stacks of tokens/inventory items that they couldn't spend, but presumably need to hang onto? This needed to blend more seamlessly into the ongoing world, ideally leading on into the next event, and leave behind a legacy of fixed vendors/suppliers/quests to allow players to complete/spend their tokens and get closure to their story.

 

8. SWTOR lacks community management tools, encouraging players to use external tools and making it easier for them to migrate to other games: If you don't have an event calendar and other guild management tools easy to use, players are forced to use external options - their own Forums, Facebook, Steam etc. This makes it a lot easier for your SWTOR Guild communities to move away from the game. As an individual player, that may not be a bad thing, but looking at the future of the SWTOR community as a whole, it's not a bright outlook. You should have a development team working on making the Guild and Community experience in SWTOR as easy and supported as possible. It's those communities which will remain loyal during the gaps in content, and will encourage more casual players to return, whilst keeping your servers alive for new players. In many ways, Guild communities act as in-game advisors and moderators, engaging with, managing and supporting less experienced players on Bioware's behalf. You need to be engaging with them and making them happy to be here.

 

9. Change management between reward systems has been poor and demoralised players: A lot of the issues with SWTOR suggest a lack of thorough impact assessment when changes are put into the game. Someone needs to have a clear strategic overview of what the design teams are doing, and be capable of gap analysis - asking the questions like what happens to the PvE content if we implement this new PvP itemised gear? Then (and this is often the hard bit) someone needs to listen to them, and do something about the gaps, preferably before the new content is released. Get a good Change Manager.

 

10. Gear frequently fails to match the Star Wars tone: We don't play Star Wars to look like transformers, nor to have oversized WoW shoulderpads inflicted upon us. Realistic costumes and some normal looking clothes and armours would be better.

 

I appreciate it's possibly arrogant and assuming for me to offer recommendations on how to run your game as someone outside your company. You may well have good reasons for some of the above concerns, and be confident you have others in hand. You may disagree with my perspective, that's fine too. But please listen and consider - I know I am far from being alone in my concerns, and I'd like these issues addressed so that SWTOR can become the success it deserves to be.

 

Regards, Alastair

 

Hey Alastair,

 

Well written post. While I don't agree with you on every point, I do appriciate how you ordered your post with both problems and possible solutions. I hope that one of the community managers actually addresses your post here in the forums. I think the debate would be quite interesting.

 

Cheers,

Urael

[Urael]

Wow. It didn't take the blinder-wearing fanboys very long to derail this thread, despite the OP being a very well-reasoned and constructive post. So I guess this is just proof that it doesn't matter if your content is constructive or mouth-foaming, the fanboys will shut you down.

 

How unfortunate.

 

OP, great post. Though you bring up a lot of what people have been saying before, I think the more people that say it, the less the developers can afford to ignore it. Thanks for your insights, OP.

 

Especially if it's delivered as the OP delivered it.