Dirty Fighting Scoundrels?

[Valliantsmugglez]

So, lots of scoundrels have been complaining about the scrapper nerfs in 1.2...

... and if you don't want to heal, why not try dirty fighting?

 

IMO, it's a much better spec, with better damage and mobility. There's also lots of nice hybrid specs that you can make with dirty fighting and sawbones combined, and when you spread your dots across different targets you should be getting top damage in the warzone.

 

Highest damage I've had is 550k, in the voidstar. Please, to all scoundrels out there, try this spec

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6D3wiFzmO0 - This is a video I made on dirty fighting, enjoy!

[Aetou]

Dirty Fighting Scrappers can't compete with Dirty Fighting Gunslingers, the tree just works so much better for them. While it is possible for any class with multiple DOTs to put up high total damage numbers that doesn't mean that the character is being effective and, unfortunately, DF Scrappers remain weak in terms of actually being able to kill people (largely due to the weird melee/ranged hybrid nature of the build). Yes, you can do ok with them but Scrapper still remains slightly better even despite the multiple nerfs which says it all about DF Scoundrels really. Hopefully 1.3 will add another couple of small buffs to DF to make it a truly competitive spec (I remain an advocate of tweaking energy costs, in particular having R&T effect Quickshot and then doing something about the UH-generation issues that a non-hybrid build has (either a time-limited random proc high in the tree or simply removing the requirement for UH from Wounding Shots and giving it a CD instead like the GS version.)

[Phlem]

I think a lot of people like myself are confused about back blast being on a 12 second cool down after 1.2 while classes like assassins has no cool down and is also energy dependent. I understand that assassins/shadows major dps isn't from their shadow strike unless infiltration tactics procs, so my point is a little moot.

 

Playing a scound right now it's difficult to understand why back blast is on the excessive cool down. See my sig, that was the primary reason why ops and scound got nerfed in 1.2, all they had to do is fix the stupid resolve bar and stunlockiong wouldn't be possible. Granted mine is only 26, but still I wonder.

[Dmasterr]

Because you have crap single target burst.

 

Lethality is scoreboard dmg padding, you might do allot of damage, but its ineffective damage. You will not kill anyone with it.

 

Also, if you want to play lethality, go sniper, it does allot better... and won't make stealth "useless", and has other strong single target damage with a heal debuff and execute.

 

Lethality operative is to lethality sniper the same as merc pyro is to powetech pyro. Except it doesn't nullify a class strength (stealth) and pyro merc damage is single target direct damage not dot spreading crap.

 

TLDR : Lethality operative is horrible for pvp.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Diplomaticus]

Because you have crap single target burst.

 

Lethality is scoreboard dmg padding, you might do allot of damage, but its ineffective damage. You will not kill anyone with it.

 

 

Burst? Maybe not. But pressure damage sure. Cull is the most damaging ability without a cooldown/cast time in the game. Its tooltip damage is higher than Hidden Strike's (at least for me) and ~50% of it is Internal. Full lethality builds may increase the internal component by another 30%, and 18/0/23 builds may chain up to 5 or 6 Culls in rapid succession. It requires set-up, so it can't be called "burst". But it is superb delayed pressure. Which kills people all the time. in fact, I'd argue that they are more certain killers than Concealment, because if you survive the initial burst, concealment loses its edge. The opposite is true for Lethality, who can repeat their pressure combos infinitely.

 

However, you do have a point. Because there are many Lethal Ops that DO focus on dotting/scoreboard padding. Which just isn't the way to go. (Cull is the Lethality niche, not the dots, which are actually relatively weak compared to other dot classes like Madness Inquisitors, Anni Maras and Lethal Engineers)

Edited June 5, 2012 by Diplomaticus

[DarthLightSide]

I could see it working. Would definitely be a very annoying class to fight 1v1 if you didn't have heals or cleanse. DoT enemy up, toss out other random damage while healing yourself. Would be a little longer fight than most, but you could win alot. And of course tossing out a little fluff damage while healing in WZ's isn't a bad idea either. Trust me. classes w/out heals or cleanse will hate having dots on them

[Dmasterr]

, and 18/0/23 builds may chain up to 5 or 6 Culls in rapid succession.

 

Stop exaggerating, you can not do that due to TA and energy restriction.

[Diplomaticus]

I could see it working. Would definitely be a very annoying class to fight 1v1 if you didn't have heals or cleanse. DoT enemy up, toss out other random damage while healing yourself. Would be a little longer fight than most, but you could win alot. And of course tossing out a little fluff damage while healing in WZ's isn't a bad idea either. Trust me. classes w/out heals or cleanse will hate having dots on them

 

Well, you're wrong as well. (read my previous reply) But you haven't tried it out and still took a positive shine to it so I like you. ^^

 

Stop exaggerating, you can not do that due to TA and energy restriction.

 

This is why I said "in Rapid Succession", which implies that you don't have to follow every Cull with another Cull right away.

 

Let's see how this can happen (in fact I posted this in another thread only yesterday):

 

You start the fight with 2 TA's, which for the 18/0/23 build is more often the case than not.

- You dot someone up

- Cull #1

- Shiv #1

- Cull #2

- Cull #3

At some point after Cull #2, Medical Engineering kicked in and gave you another TA.

- Cull #4

- Shiv #2

- Cull #5

 

This can be your exact rotation if you have Adrenaline Probe off the cooldown. If you haven't, obviously you'll have to throw some Rifle Shots in, but that'll also give Medical Engineering more chances to proc, increasing the amount of Culls to at least 6.

 

This isn't just hypothetical. These strings of attacks occur multiple times in a single full-duration warzone.

 

You're right that it doesn't happen every time. But even 3 or 4 Culls really hurt. And don't forget you also have Explosive Probe and Backstab.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Diplomaticus

[kuey]

Well, you're wrong as well. (read my previous reply) But you haven't tried it out and still took a positive shine to it so I like you. ^^

 

 

 

This is why I said "in Rapid Succession", which implies that you don't have to follow every Cull with another Cull right away.

 

Let's see how this can happen (in fact I posted this in another thread only yesterday):

 

You start the fight with 2 TA's, which for the 18/0/23 build is more often the case than not.

- You dot someone up

- Cull #1

- Shiv #1

- Cull #2

- Cull #3

At some point after Cull #2, Medical Engineering kicked in and gave you another TA.

- Cull #4

- Shiv #2

- Cull #5

 

This can be your exact rotation if you have Adrenaline Probe off the cooldown. If you haven't, obviously you'll have to throw some Rifle Shots in, but that'll also give Medical Engineering more chances to proc, increasing the amount of Culls to at least 6.

 

This isn't just hypothetical. These strings of attacks occur multiple times in a single full-duration warzone.

 

You're right that it doesn't happen every time. But even 3 or 4 Culls really hurt. And don't forget you also have Explosive Probe and Backstab.

 

Been there, done that, great delayed burst (need 2 GCDs to set it up) but even with AP by the end you have next to no energy after a full rotation and are thus useless for a very long time.

 

Let's also not forget the DF kills your Mezz as it gets broken by DoT (and thh AoE dot means those nearby can't be mezz'd either) and it merely acts as another interrupt.

 

Also don't forget your rotation is only viable against a single target, if they die, it's another 40 energy to setup the next one, and each target thereafter unless they get caught in your AoE DoT in which case it's only 20. Also let's not forget that you won't always have 2 TA/UH ready to go.

 

Then there's your HoT proc, it's not always reliable (and for maximum chance of procs you have to constantly keep it up on 2-3 people which means MORE energy drain).

 

There's also the problem where if your target dies before your AoE DoT is up again, your damage takes a hit cause you can only apply 1 DoT to your next target.

 

In PvP it's often the case where the fights are ongoing, it's not all about 1v1, you won't always have the opportunity to duck out, wait to regen, pop up 2 UH/TAs before a fight, pop a couple of HoTs, wait for your energy to come back up, THEN dive back in.

 

Simply put, the DF/Leth PvP setup is just not practical for those who like to play the role of DDs.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a build that can have great support. But a pure healer or a pure DD is going to contribute more to the team.

[Izola]

I tried to hang in there I really did....but the best u faced was a 15k Infil spec Sin....the rest were 12,13,14k's.....I can beat up junk players too with a BAD spec and make a video about it.

 

I feel SO bad for Ops/Scoundrels....They killed your class. To bad too because Rogues were 1 of the most popular classes in WOW and both Shadow/Sin & Ops/Scoundrel can't use this bust play style. You are either a tank spec shadow/Sin or heals.

 

Sorry but you are either playing a good class or you are playing with a handicap. And ATM anything other then those specs and you put yourself in a BAD position in PVP.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Izola

[Diplomaticus]

You actually mention some valid points (aimed at Kuey btw). But you can't really say that any dps-oriented operative build is all around perfect at this time. You're not really wrong either (which tells me that you've actually played the build) at many times, however I do believe there can be some nuances.

 

Been there, done that, great delayed burst (need 2 GCDs to set it up) but even with AP by the end you have next to no energy after a full rotation and are thus useless for a very long time.

 

I think you slightly overestimate the energy consumption here, because in an entire warzone I may find myself out of energy ONCE. I do tend to conserve my resources though if I know that the battle is going to last for a while. (and frankly, every class bar two needs to manage resources) I think you also underestimate the energy regeneration given by Lethal Purpose.

 

Let's also not forget the DF kills your Mezz as it gets broken by DoT (and thh AoE dot means those nearby can't be mezz'd either) and it merely acts as another interrupt.

 

Again, a valid point to raise. But there are ways to work around this. I use it primarily as a means to eliminate a target (or targets) I have no intention of damaging just yet. Furthermore, Lethality Snipers experience WAY more troubles concerning dots breaking cc, and I don't hear a lot of talk of them being underpowered. ^^

 

Also don't forget your rotation is only viable against a single target, if they die, it's another 40 energy to setup the next one, and each target thereafter unless they get caught in your AoE DoT in which case it's only 20. Also let's not forget that you won't always have 2 TA/UH ready to go.

 

Actually, since I'm 18/0/23. I'm specced for Precision Instruments. Meaning it's 36 energy to setup a next target, or only 16 if I've got corr grenade already up. I'll agree that this is only a minor point though, and set-up is one of the weaker points of lethality/lethal meds. You can partly avoid this problem by picking off targets that aren't yet being focus fired by your team. And of course, you don't always have 2 TA's available, but in my experience, most of the time, you have (I'd estimate it 66% of the time if you're actually between battles, and 90% of the time you have at least one). Yeah, I know these are fairly randomly estimated numbers, but I do believe they're fairly credible (you may disagree of course).

 

Then there's your HoT proc, it's not always reliable (and for maximum chance of procs you have to constantly keep it up on 2-3 people which means MORE energy drain).

 

This is also very true. But if you place the hots strategically, they aren't wasted (over their full course, they heal enough to be worthwhile). Also, probably over half of the probes are applied between fights, avoiding most of the energy issue. And their nature is indeed slightly unreliable. It does happen that, even though you have three persons kolto'd, you don't get any TA's (or even only 1 would not be justifiable). But there is an other side to it: you can have lucky streaks, during which you generate a TA every 6 seconds, even if you have only kolto'd yourself (ergo, a 1v1 situation).

 

There's also the problem where if your target dies before your AoE DoT is up again, your damage takes a hit cause you can only apply 1 DoT to your next target.

 

This, unfortunately, is completely true. Very annoying if it happens.

 

In PvP it's often the case where the fights are ongoing, it's not all about 1v1, you won't always have the opportunity to duck out, wait to regen, pop up 2 UH/TAs before a fight, pop a couple of HoTs, wait for your energy to come back up, THEN dive back in.

 

Well, first of all I'd argue that my spec (18/0/23) is in fact primarily a group spec, as you generate Culls (ergo, powerful attacks) through healing other people. Not just through probes, but Kolto Injecting a wounded ally is another (and in fact, a very powerful and efficient) way of generating a certain Cull. The build is weakest when it finds itself alone. And I already mentioned, that Energy management isn't really that problematic as some people make it out to be. (though I won't claim that it's a strong point of the build either)

 

Simply put, the DF/Leth PvP setup is just not practical for those who like to play the role of DDs.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a build that can have great support. But a pure healer or a pure DD is going to contribute more to the team.

 

Well, I obviously don't agree. ^^ Not trying to convert you or anything though, because I do believe other builds are inferiour or anything. I don't think they're superiour either, though.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Diplomaticus

[kuey]

I tried to hang in there I really did....but the best u faced was a 15k Infil spec Sin....the rest were 12,13,14k's.....I can beat up junk players too with a BAD spec and make a video about it.

 

I feel SO bad for Ops/Scoundrels....They killed your class. To bad too because Rogues were 1 of the most popular classes in WOW and both Shadow/Sin & Ops/Scoundrel can't use this bust play style. You are either a tank spec shadow/Sin or heals.

 

Sorry but you are either playing a good class or you are playing with a handicap. And ATM anything other then those specs and you put yourself in a BAD position in PVP.

 

They didn't kill the class. Healing is great. Also Concealment/Scrapper is fine. The only problem is everyone compares them with tank sins/shadows and mara/sents who have significantly better survivability, and in the case of mara/sent, have pretty much the same damage with a gap closer. Op/Scoundrel do more damage than tank sins/shadows, but the gap in survivability and utility makes the sin/shadow a much better in PvP (not to mention the gap between survivability is greater than the gap between damage).

[Swidgin]

They didn't kill the class. Healing is great. Also Concealment/Scrapper is fine. The only problem is everyone compares them with tank sins/shadows and mara/sents who have significantly better survivability, and in the case of mara/sent, have pretty much the same damage with a gap closer. Op/Scoundrel do more damage than tank sins/shadows, but the gap in survivability and utility makes the sin/shadow a much better in PvP (not to mention the gap between survivability is greater than the gap between damage).

 

Ok so you agree with me....Why then act like you don't?

 

Scrubs/noobs/nubs cried to the heavens because they didn't understand that a bust class was working as intended and 2 huge nerfs came screaming down from BW and took a class with little utility and NO gap closer and wiped away the only reason to play the class/spec...Burst.

 

The class is dead and if you play it, it's only because you hate heals.

[Trauglodyte]

It was a good video so I can't say anything bad about that. But let me expalin to you why Lethality/Dirty Fighting is super bad for Ops and Scoundrels:

 

1- Damage done is not good damage done: People can feel great about themselves with all the damage that they've done but it is slow damage, collateral damage, and easily mitigated damage. Its annoying and when you get the talent that applied a weakened version of your dots, it forces a double cleanse. But even then, you're now been neutered and you've accomplished little.

 

2- Damage is slow: When you need to drop a target, you need to do it quickly. The whole point of burst and target switching is to prevent healers from getting into a groove and draining the attackers of resources. DoTs don't necessarily do that.

 

3- Crappy survivability: Going on point number two, because you're slower at killing your target, they've got more time to pound on you. You're in medium armor with moderate hit points and your only defensive cool downs are Shield Probe (not that great), Evasion (sucky against everyone but a Sniper), and Cloaking Screen (3 min thanks to not being Concealment). If you're facing anyone with half a brain and any manner of skill and/or gear, you're goign to get hammered. More on this, your stealth is awful which means sneaking up on people is not going to happen so you're even more vulnerable than you want to be.

 

4- In Combat bug: Thanks to throwing DoTs around, you're pretty much guaranteed to never have sprint or stealth available after you die or have killed a target because they keep you in combat. That means that you're not running around with crappy survivability at a slow pace with no ability to hide.

 

5- Energy/GCD usage: When your two setup abilities to your primary attack pull a total of 40 energy from you and you need to use Stim Boost to recoup energy, you're in trouble. You're in trouble because you don't have any means of generating TAs outside of Shiv and Hidden Strike (you probably won't get the HS and you didn't often in the vid) and a lot of your TAs are getting blown on Stim Boost to keep you from bottoming out your energy which means you're not Culling as often as you can. Then there is the GCD usage:

 

Conc Op: Acid Blade + Hidden Strike - Backstab - Shiv - Lacerate - Lacerate (or make changes based on your preferences)

 

Leth Op: Hidden Strike (if you can) - Backstab - Shiv - Corrosive Grenade - Corrosive Dart - Stim Boost + Weakening Blast - Cull

 

MAJOR differential in time and energy use. The Conc Op is dropping a lot of damage quickly where as the Leth Op isn't. If your stealth gets popped, you're stuck in a weird range between and missing out on the BS/Shiv which means you'v gotta close the distance while dropping DoTs and using Rifle Shot. Even if you get your alpha strike going, you're still doing like half the damage of the Conc Op before you get to use a TA IF you even get to use it.

 

6- Range hybrid: The biggest kicker is that there is no good play style due to the abilities. Your stealth is awful so the chances are good that you won't even make it in for a Hidden Strike. You can stay at range and pepper people with grenades, dots, and auto attacks but that isn't good damage. You can run in after you've dotted folks up but you're getting hammered in the process and NOBODY makes a better kill target than Op in the open.

 

7- CC buster: congratulations, you just dotted everyone up and now Mezzes and Sleeps are no longer able to be used

 

 

 

I really wanted Lethality to play out well. But, as Masters said, you've got the same tools as a Leth Sniper but with 10x of the negatives. Your punch is nowhere near as good as their's and you don't even have the defense that they do. And, you're now down 1 of your 2 CC options thanks to the DoTs. It is a gigantic amalgamation of bad.

[kuey]

First of all thanks for the civil reply, too many ppl on these forums feel the need to reply with flaming.

 

I think you slightly overestimate the energy consumption here, because in an entire warzone I may find myself out of energy ONCE. I do tend to conserve my resources though if I know that the battle is going to last for a while. (and frankly, every class bar two needs to manage resources) I think you also underestimate the energy regeneration given by Lethal Purpose.

 

This may be true, it may be just be my playstyle, I generally don't leave enough time to regen properly, but even then I feel the downtime between bursts between DF/Leth and Conc/Scraps is significantly worse. With Scraps/Conceal I can constantly throw out my skills without worrying about energy. With DF I find myself playing tactically "does this target really need a full burst?" "Is the gain worth the energy cost to drop a SC/EP on this guy?" etc. .etc. Sometime I make the right call, sometimes I don't, circumstances aren't always static and predictable, so a build with more versatility feels more useful.

 

Again, a valid point to raise. But there are ways to work around this. I use it primarily as a means to eliminate a target (or targets) I have no intention of damaging just yet. Furthermore, Lethality Snipers experience WAY more troubles concerning dots breaking cc, and I don't hear a lot of talk of them being underpowered. ^^

 

The difference between snipers and ops is that, snipers don't have to get in your face to deal damage, ops do, and are more often placed in situations where there's multiple enemies. Let's not forget Snipers also have far more tools survivability wise (knockback, root, cc immunity, cover, absorption [tier 2 marksman], Aoe shield) compared to Op's in-fight stealth which 90% of the time you get knocked out of in group fights and maybe half the time in 1v1 against competent players (well that's the success rate I have against Op/Scoundrel vanish).

 

Actually, since I'm 18/0/23. I'm specced for Precision Instruments. Meaning it's 36 energy to setup a next target, or only 16 if I've got corr grenade already up. I'll agree that this is only a minor point though, and set-up is one of the weaker points of lethality/lethal meds. You can partly avoid this problem by picking off targets that aren't yet being focus fired by your team. And of course, you don't always have 2 TA's available, but in my experience, most of the time, you have (I'd estimate it 66% of the time if you're actually between battles, and 90% of the time you have at least one). Yeah, I know these are fairly randomly estimated numbers, but I do believe they're fairly credible (you may disagree of course).

 

I agree totally here, however there's 1 major problem here. Focus fire. Unless you're pressuring a healer (which with your build you'll struggle with due to having your DoTs removed, and having to recast your 16 energy DoT every few seconds to make Cull viable is rather impractical), you should be focusing those key targets with your team. The more spread out the damage the more you leave your team susceptible to healers/guards/provokes. I'll admit this isn't always the case, and during those times when you're picking off single targets, I'm totally down with you.

 

This is also very true. But if you place the hots strategically, they aren't wasted (over their full course, they heal enough to be worthwhile). Also, probably over half of the probes are applied between fights, avoiding most of the energy issue. And their nature is indeed slightly unreliable. It does happen that, even though you have three persons kolto'd, you don't get any TA's (or even only 1 would not be justifiable). But there is an other side to it: you can have lucky streaks, during which you generate a TA every 6 seconds, even if you have only kolto'd yourself (ergo, a 1v1 situation).

 

The problem I feel here is that, with on-going fights (e.g. huttball, or intense node fights) your HoTs are going to timeout during combat unless you run away midfight (which only hurts your team). You'll die many times making this point moot, but as DF I often found myself alive mainly because strategically I wasn't as important to take down as most of my team mates (tanks, healers, snipers/gs). Recasting midfight is painful, esp if I'm also trying to DPS.

 

I also mentioned above, but with your current build with 23 in DF/Leth, you're DoTs can be cleansed. In short, against teams with more than 1 healer or attacking someone who can self-cleanse, you lose a lot of dps. Also you lose one of teh greatest perks of a DF/Leth build, that being, no one can go invis against you because with DoTs that cannot be cleansed they WILL be knocked out of it. The only time it doesn't help is when someon goes from stealth straight into an attack, but most times people save their stealths for emergency situations which require time for re-positioning/sneaking or escaping, which they won't have with your DoTs up on them.

[kuey]

Ok so you agree with me....Why then act like you don't?

 

Scrubs/noobs/nubs cried to the heavens because they didn't understand that a bust class was working as intended and 2 huge nerfs came screaming down from BW and took a class with little utility and NO gap closer and wiped away the only reason to play the class/spec...Burst.

 

The class is dead and if you play it, it's only because you hate heals.

 

Totally agree with you on the gap closer issue, it's the only problem I have with the class. Stealth is an initiator not a closer, which got massively nerfed so you can't approach people unless you hit your stealth boost ability. Unfortunately most people fail to realise that. Burst damage wise however, I still feel we're only second to Snipers/GS.

Edited June 5, 2012 by kuey

[Diplomaticus]

First of all thanks for the civil reply, too many ppl on these forums feel the need to reply with flaming.

 

No problem. I seldom feel the need for flaming, and you certainly didn't do anything to spark it off. (I'm adequately confident about my gaming skills to appreciate some constructive criticism and intelligently constructed opinions that may deviate from my own)

 

This may be true, it may be just be my playstyle, I generally don't leave enough time to regen properly, but even then I feel the downtime between bursts between DF/Leth and Conc/Scraps is significantly worse. With Scraps/Conceal I can constantly throw out my skills without worrying about energy. With DF I find myself playing tactically "does this target really need a full burst?" "Is the gain worth the energy cost to drop a SC/EP on this guy?" etc. .etc. Sometime I make the right call, sometimes I don't, circumstances aren't always static and predictable, so a build with more versatility feels more useful.

 

Well, I just tell you how I experienced things. And it is certainly true that my build isn't the most resource-efficient one in the game. But if you play it long enough, you'll naturally learn how far you can push the limits without coming in trouble. One thing I'd like to say is that you seem to imply that my build is very bad at killing people who are going to die anyway. Frankly: who cares. If someone needs set-up, great for me and my build. If he's going down fast regardless, fine by me. Often that's when I throw in a sneaky Backstab or Explosive Probe for a killsteal. (not advisable, but we all have our flaws ^^)

 

 

The difference between snipers and ops is that, snipers don't have to get in your face to deal damage, ops do, and are more often placed in situations where there's multiple enemies. Let's not forget Snipers also have far more tools survivability wise (knockback, root, cc immunity, cover, absorption [tier 2 marksman], Aoe shield) compared to Op's in-fight stealth which 90% of the time you get knocked out of in group fights and maybe half the time in 1v1 against competent players (well that's the success rate I have against Op/Scoundrel vanish).

 

Well, I have found Vanish to be more effective than that. Frankly, that's an argument for your sake, because Concealment makes better use of that skill than Lethality. ^^ And though the arguments were more leth vs conc, not leth vs op, here's my summarized opinion on that matter: dps-wise, Snipers may have the edge. But my Cull is more dangerous, and I provide healing for my team. (you mentioned you found it impractical and energy consuming, which I can understand really, but I feel comfortable worknig with it, and I say that healing is better than no healing).

 

 

I agree totally here, however there's 1 major problem here. Focus fire. Unless you're pressuring a healer (which with your build you'll struggle with due to having your DoTs removed, and having to recast your 16 energy DoT every few seconds to make Cull viable is rather impractical), you should be focusing those key targets with your team. The more spread out the damage the more you leave your team susceptible to healers/guards/provokes. I'll admit this isn't always the case, and during those times when you're picking off single targets, I'm totally down with you.

 

First one thing: Sorcs/Sages (which over half of the PvP healers on my server happen to be) cannot cleanse tech effects. This is something lots of people seem to overlook, and frankly makes my life a lot easier. Your focus fire argument is viable, but I'll raise my previous point again: if I think the guy is going to survive for a bit, I'm going to join in, and my set-up isn't wasted. If he is going down fast enough, it doesn't matter that much, and my headstart on another target is fully justifiable.

 

 

 

The problem I feel here is that, with on-going fights (e.g. huttball, or intense node fights) your HoTs are going to timeout during combat unless you run away midfight (which only hurts your team). You'll die many times making this point moot, but as DF I often found myself alive mainly because strategically I wasn't as important to take down as most of my team mates (tanks, healers, snipers/gs). Recasting midfight is painful, esp if I'm also trying to DPS.

 

First point is correct, but as I said before I don't consider the hots as wasted global cooldowns/energy. Furthermore, they only cost 15 energy, which isn't too bad. Your second point, I feel, is wrong. I feel I am one of the most surviving players on my server. Medium armour, decent crowd control, health regeneration, fairly good defensive cooldowns and espace tools and improved healing all add up. I tend to think (though this may be megalomania kicking in) that I am considered one of the most annoying players to play against. I noticed several reppies chasing me every time they notice me.

 

I also mentioned above, but with your current build with 23 in DF/Leth, you're DoTs can be cleansed. In short, against teams with more than 1 healer or attacking someone who can self-cleanse, you lose a lot of dps. Also you lose one of teh greatest perks of a DF/Leth build, that being, no one can go invis against you because with DoTs that cannot be cleansed they WILL be knocked out of it. The only time it doesn't help is when someon goes from stealth straight into an attack, but most times people save their stealths for emergency situations which require time for re-positioning/sneaking or escaping, which they won't have with your DoTs up on them.

 

This is another very valuable point you make, and I've expected it to pop up ever since we started this discussion. ^^ You may not believe me, but it isn't as crippling as people may think (if it was, I would've gone full lethality ages ago). First of all, as I said before, sorcs -even healers- cannot cleanse my stuff. This makes them, frankly, my favourite targets. Healer Commmandos and Scoundrels, even if they know the location of their cleanse button (you'd be surprised how many of them don't), generally don't cleanse stuff off players in larger scale PvP, as they'd rather keep those health bars high at all times than waste a global cooldown. Dps Players with a cleanse button will seldom use it either in larger scale battle, as then they tend to rely on their tanks/healers to protect them. They'd rather just beat on their targets.

 

The only times when this issue really pops up is if I find myself 1v1 a healer scoundrel/comm. If they don't cleanse, I can beat them. If they do, I must admit, I can't do a lot but "not bother". If I find myself solo against a dps comm, I first figure out if they cleanse (again, lots don't). If they don't, I can beat them easily. If they do, I may either try to take them down with basic attacks, or I may flee (they're not dangerous enough and too immobile to prevent you from escaping). The REAL problem is against dps scoundrels that cleanse. They are my main counter, and I can't do anything against them. But any class has weaknesses against some classes, so I don't let that discourage me. All in all, in two and a half months time of 50's PvP, I haven't played a single warzone in which I felt cleansing made me useless.

 

I'll direct a point at you now for a change. ^^ You are absolutely right that there are many annoyances that make the build more impratical and complex, and it certainly has some weaknesses. I'd argue that this is necessary, because my build has a dps output that is more than decent (and it DOES have killing power, something you don't seem to dispute either), while also racking up efficient off-healing. My dps output in a full-duration warzone ranges from 275k to 450k (and it's NOT damage padding, I dps to kill), while my healing ranges from 100k (if we stomped them and I didn't need to throw in any heals) to 250k (rare, but achievable). Admittedly, about 50% of that is self-healing. But that keeps me alive while distracting enemies, and it takes pressure of healers as well.

 

I don't think it's the best operative build or anything. But it's the build I've been most successful with, and I have played Concealment in the past (and full leth, but only very shortly).

[Valliantsmugglez]

Well, thanks for the feedback anyway.

1- Damage- I'd like to just say that I REALLY think you guys are not seeing what this spec can actually do. Yeah, it lacks with defense and burst- but the damage is not exactly bad. With both dots a DF can get (if it's a non-crit) two 600 shots and one ranging from 800-1000. So, about the same as a Scrapper back blast non crit, it gets normally 2000-2200. Bad, I guess, but whereas a scrapper has to be behind AND right next to the target, DFs can stay at a range out of the marauders death sentence radius.

Crits will normally be consisting of two shots of abot 800-900 and one that can rise up to 1500. Normally, crit hits will do 3.2k at the minimum, since if one hit from wounding shots crits they all will do indefinitely. I think a lot of people miss this just because you don't get the '2.5k in one blow' medal.

Plus, as I mentioned, the hybrid specs you can make with DF are great. Before I made my alt on a nice server, I switched my scoundrel's spec to the point where each respec was costing me 100k between a DF spec that went up to wounding shots, then came into sawbones up to and including the medpack and the upper hand buff from the medpack.

So, lots more wounding shots to come, and then I don't have to use blaster whip at all. Its also a great buff to survival with the healing.

 

2- Energy management- Biggest problem I had before I learned quite a strict rotation. We need to learn that burst is not our thing, so trying to get as many wounding shots as possible is not the way to go. Especially with the sawbones hybrid, energy management is tough to people who don't properly look at their abilities and their costs. Alas, it can be done. I plan on making a tutorial and in that I'll show you the rotation I use, but the bottom line is that you need to stay above 50% energy all the time. (60%+ energy regenerates faster than 40%+, etc)

 

3- Survival- A lot of you are talking about the fact that we are in medium armour, and so the fact that we don't have burst is just going to get us killed by everything. Well, I don't think thats true. To start with we have two movement impairing effects, shrap bomb and tendon blast, and when combined they make a target 90% slower, I believe. Two stuns, one of which I agree is useless due to our dots, but dirty kick is a nice stun with the speed increase makes a DF's kiting incredible. I take pleasure in killing warriors, and that is serious, because to me they appear to be the biggest target. I have faced half war hero half BM sentinels and won quite comfortably, because I can kite them very well and attack while moving.

Another thing, the scoundrel's mobility! I'm surprised I didn't see this mentioned. I am not going to go into DF gunslingers because that's not what the thread is about, but scoundrels do not have to stop moving, unless we want to LOS and get a heal off. We can dance around people, just out of leap range but just out of melee range, and watch dots and wounding shots cripple them! Plus the defense screen and vanish, survival from a DF scoundrel is really not that bad.

 

And to round this up, my main point is that our damage is not burst, but its not very slow paced either. Once our two dots are up (which, may I add, do a fair amount of damage themselves with hehmoraging blast) wounding shots, backblast and sabotage charges combined make a very nice amount of damage. Really, we only need to wait about 1.5-2 seconds before our damage really kicks in.

 

[Dmasterr]

Playing heal-lethality hybrid you end up with ineffective heals and ineffective damage and even worse survivability than you can get with other specs.

 

You will not keep anyone (yourself included) from dying , and you will not kill anyone.

 

 

But hey, at least you look good when the scoreboard is up

[Izola]

Im sorry if your not healing as a scoundrel, your doing it wrong.

 

Hell im in all dps gear and still heal cuz its that much better.

 

And honestly why wouldnt anyone want the most OP AC in the game, cuz at current state Sawbones heals are BOSS

[Dmasterr]

Im sorry if your not healing as a scoundrel, your doing it wrong.

 

Hell im in all dps gear and still heal cuz its that much better.

 

And honestly why wouldnt anyone want the most OP AC in the game, cuz at current state Sawbones heals are BOSS

 

I off-heal as needed but not everyone likes to be a healbot.

 

And if you spend more time healing than doing damage as a dps spec, then the dps aspect of the class is crap.

[Vodrin]

I tried to hang in there I really did....but the best u faced was a 15k Infil spec Sin....the rest were 12,13,14k's.....I can beat up junk players too with a BAD spec and make a video about it.

 

I feel SO bad for Ops/Scoundrels....They killed your class. To bad too because Rogues were 1 of the most popular classes in WOW and both Shadow/Sin & Ops/Scoundrel can't use this bust play style. You are either a tank spec shadow/Sin or heals.

 

Sorry but you are either playing a good class or you are playing with a handicap. And ATM anything other then those specs and you put yourself in a BAD position in PVP.

 

I've seen posts like this about multiple classes I play, whether it's vengeance jug, combat sentinel, or several others. And while people are telling me over and over that I am doing it wrong because I chose a "gimped" spec, I am too busy excelling by any metric to care. When those that tell me my spec is subpar can catch me in any statistical measure (killing blows, damage, total healing, protection, whatever you want to use for a given class) I'll start believing that one spec is definitively better than another. Problem is that most people making these statements either do not know how to play the spec they are criticizing, or never played it at all. 90% of the time they are just flat out wrong.

[Valliantsmugglez]

Playing heal-lethality hybrid you end up with ineffective heals and ineffective damage and even worse survivability than you can get with other specs.

 

You will not keep anyone (yourself included) from dying , and you will not kill anyone.

 

 

I don't play lethality hybrid, I'm just saying that it is available.

And where is all this uselessness coming from? I am fine in 1v1, and always have been as DF... you are really hating on a spec that doesn't need this much hate

Edited June 5, 2012 by Valliantsmugglez

[Dmasterr]

I've seen posts like this about multiple classes I play, whether it's vengeance jug, combat sentinel, or several others. And while people are telling me over and over that I am doing it wrong because I chose a "gimped" spec, I am too busy excelling by any metric to care. .

 

DUDE, when you are playing vs 12-14k hp ppl, "you" could go 0/0/0 and still own face on any class.

 

 

And where is all this uselessness coming from? I am fine in 1v1, and always have been as DF... you are really hating on a spec that doesn't need this much hate

 

WZ are not 1v1.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Valliantsmugglez]

WZ are not 1v1.

 

So, DF can be good at 1v1, and it can be good at damaging many targets at a time, which is a warzone situation. To be damaging lots of people at a time is a useful asset, and when DF scoundrels don't rely on a bunch of CDs to keep them going through fights like Scrappers do, isn't that more useful in a warzone?

Edited June 5, 2012 by Valliantsmugglez