A new level cap just might be the gamebreaker for me

[Goretzu]

How do you know it's not a level raise from 50 to 52? Or 54? Hell, our gear is already level 56.

 

It would be pointless to raise the level cap unless they intended everyone to re-grind PvP and PvE gear (this is the only reason for level cap raises).

 

 

This is also exactly what Bioware did in 1.4 WAR, added a MASSIVE level grind and tied new gear to it, so they have prior form for this sort of thing.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Goretzu

[JeramieCrowe]

It would be pointless to raise the level cap unless they intended everyone to re-grind PvP and PvE gear (this is the only reason for level cap raises).

 

 

This is also exactly what Bioware did in 1.4 WAR, added a MASSIVE level grind and tied new gear to it, so they have prior form for this sort of thing.

 

Well, since we're grinding for level 56 gear at 50, then the new level gear, if we're 54, would be levels 56-60. That would be quite a grind. And, actually, necessary for new, higher level Ops.

Edited June 5, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Goretzu]

Well, since we're grinding for level 56 gear at 50, then the new level gear, if we're 54, would be levels 56-60. That would be quite a grind. And, actually, necessary for new, higher level Ops.

 

That's gear level, which isn't always the same thing as character level.

 

If they change things like WoW then the level cap raise will be far enough to make old gear obsolete.

 

If they change things like WAR then the new gear will simply be much better than the old (or the old nerfed as well).

 

 

Either way if it's a level cap without a full expansion it's basically a pure grind for grinds sake.

 

I won't go through a 1.4 WAR situation with this game (especially not after just 6 months), if they are going down the road of adding pointless grind just because they can't afford to add content to the game, then I'm off (and when you experience it I imagine you'll be off too ).

[JeramieCrowe]

That's gear level, which isn't always the same thing as character level.

 

If they change things like WoW then the level cap raise will be far enough to make old gear obsolete.

 

If they change things like WAR then the new gear will simply be much better than the old (or the old nerfed as well).

 

 

Either way if it's a level cap without a full expansion it's basically a pure grind for grinds sake.

 

I won't go through a 1.4 WAR situation with this game (especially not after just 6 months), if they are going down the road of adding pointless grind just because they can't afford to add content to the game, then I'm off (and when you experience it I imagine you'll be off too ).

 

Yes, but the gear curve is MUCH more shallow than WoW's. Thus, to introduce a new, higher level Op almost necessitates a slight level raise to progress to it.

 

Also, new planet, y'know? More story? That's not a grind...

Edited June 5, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Hotspur]

It would be pointless to raise the level cap unless they intended everyone to re-grind PvP and PvE gear (this is the only reason for level cap raises).

 

 

This is also exactly what Bioware did in 1.4 WAR, added a MASSIVE level grind and tied new gear to it, so they have prior form for this sort of thing.

 

By WAR I'm assuming you mean Warhammer Online. For clarification, WAR was Mythic's MMO, not Bioware's. Though of course there has been some crossover with the two studios as of late, but I can't agree that that is enough to rationalize the statement 'what Bioware did in 1.4 WAR...'

 

I'm just clarifying though, and not suggesting an alteration to your overall point.

[Goretzu]

Yes, but the gear curve is MUCH more shallow than WoW's. Thus, to introduce a new, higher level Op almost necessitates a slight level raise to progress to it.

 

Also, new planet, y'know? More story? That's not a grind...

 

We'll have to see.

 

But look at Burning Crusade, 10 levels and a massive amount of content (or SoK or SoV or SoL in EQ1 or Moria in LOTRO).

 

1 planet of a similar size to the current ones = what? 1-2 levels of content at L51 and L52?

 

 

 

 

Now don't get me wrong if it's a HUGE planet of SWG proportions full of content then that's a different thing, but nothing so far suggests that.

 

I guess the big difference is I've been through Warhammer Online, and this smells far too much of what Bioware did in 1.4 there...... and fair enough it worked for 2-3 months, but then everyone quit because they realise it was just a purely arbitary grind that they'd added just to try and keep people subbing.

 

We'll have to wait for more details, but I can't see this as being a proper expansion (they'd have announced it for good PR), and if it's just a new business model of release a new planet every 6 months and a X level cap raise..... well frankly that's more like a F2P/P2W model not a subs model.

 

I mean think of things now, currently (as of this announcement) it is utterly pointless to grind any new PvE or PvP gear at L50 because everything is now obsolete.

 

Everyone may as well just level alts till the new levels come out and then start to grind the new PvP and PvE gear then, and now waste days of their RL time on stuff that is already obsolete.

[Heezdedjim]

I'm just confused. And I mean, this is coming from tonnes of different players, but... We can't have more class story without raising the level cap. It wouldn't be pointless to play, but when doing story, I found the process of raising my level exciting in and of itself. In other words, I feel like I've accomplished something. If the level cap is not raised, any new PvP, story, crafting, etc. is just pointless.

wat. You spend as much time after you hit 50 grinding for your epics and valor as you ever spent getting to 50. And lets not forget the 50 freaking levels of Legacy they just tacked on only weeks ago in 1.2. There are all sorts of rewards that could be achieved from new story lines that have nothing to do with just another ding; new and shinier gear, bonus legacy XP, tokens for special legacy unlocks, super rare crafting mats or reward items, new companions; the list just goes on and on and on. New levels is probably the least interesting possible "reward" for any new content.

 

Most of the time that most people spend in any MMO goes toward getting everything else besides levels. Leveling up is the shortest, least satisfying, ultimately most annoying grind out of the whole grindtastic epic. Half the content in the game at the moment has, by definition, nothing at all to do with leveling up, because you can't even start it until you hit the level cap; and that's not even counting all the little completionist fetish items like datacrons and lore iterms, farming for uber rare trinkets, farming up every orange and purple pattern for your crafting skill, etc.

 

This is why in many games levels end up becoming the ultimate trash drop; they wind up just flat out selling levels in the form of booster or level-up packs, sometimes all the way to the cap or cap - 1, for those who want to keep playing and try something new, but don't want to ride the same stupid leveling treadmill again to get there.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Heezdedjim

[Mikebono]

I agree,& again the talk is about lvl cap,pls stay on subject.

The lvl cap is so WOW move,don't you dare say that it isn't.

[Goretzu]

By WAR I'm assuming you mean Warhammer Online. For clarification, WAR was Mythic's MMO, not Bioware's. Though of course there has been some crossover with the two studios as of late, but I can't agree that that is enough to rationalize the statement 'what Bioware did in 1.4 WAR...'

 

I'm just clarifying though, and not suggesting an alteration to your overall point.

 

No, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Bioware had been running Warhammer Online for a good 6-8 months solo before 1.4 came along.

 

1.4 was Bioware's baby and was the first big patch under solo Bioware control (it had been Bioware-Mythic EA for a year or so before that and Mythic EA before that).

 

So yes Bioware did 1.4 WAR, exactly as I said.

[JimG]

And with the knowledge that everything you can get right now will be outdated with the new level cap I think this problem will only get wose.

 

Says who? Black Hole gear is level 61 and we only go to level 50. Plus, with the augments now, they can add higher powered augments without changing the levels of the gear itself. So they can add new and different gear that's at a similar power range but more powerful augments for the higher levels. Then you'd need the same gear anyway. Right now, this is a ways off and we have no idea how it will actually be implemented. Some more details might be useful before people start taking cover from the falling sky.

[-Backdraft-]

Boring that people can't share their mind without getting flamed.... But ye, I agree with you and I feel the same way as you....

[Razot]

YAY more levels and more grind like suddenly being at level cap with a crappy end game at 50 will suddenly be amazing at 55 or 60.

I think its a stupid idea but whatever.

[Goretzu]

Says who? Black Hole gear is level 61 and we only go to level 50. Plus, with the augments now, they can add higher powered augments without changing the levels of the gear itself. So they can add new and different gear that's at a similar power range but more powerful augments for the higher levels. Then you'd need the same gear anyway. Right now, this is a ways off and we have no idea how it will actually be implemented. Some more details might be useful before people start taking cover from the falling sky.

 

I can't see any point to them raising the level cap and not adding any better PvP and PvE gear.

 

Why would they do that? What would it achieve?

 

The whole method behind level cap raises in MMORPGs (going right back to RoK in EQ1) is to effectively "re-set" the max level to 0, levelling the playing field and making people grind again to get the best gear (be it PvE or PvP or whatever).

 

If they just wanted to add grind with out gear carrots they could have just added more AA/Legacy.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

Just a small question, ? ok so if they add new levels so say, you got to grind to 60, well 60 would be the old 50, so when you get there, you will still be bored after a week anyway, ?! adding more levels to the game, is not any real answer to solving players 'eventually' getting bored anyway. Your just delaying it a little. People can always power level anyway, their way to 60.

 

Well if they add 10 levels every 6 months, they'd probably have some people chasing that carrot (that the can never reach) for a while........ of course a lot more would simply wise up to the trick and just quit.

 

Of course it means that now all top level PvP and PvE gear is effectively obsolete, and the game is in limbo till the new level cap goes Live.

[Phrase]

Infact the only people i can see being upset as always are would be the 'nastyhardcore' raiders who need to be infront of others to feel good about themselves. Its like if they cant look down on people then the game has zero enjoyment value for them, they have to hit top end 1st, hit hardcore 1st and clear the operations and heroics 1st, get the best gear 1st then sit there as if they have won the nobel peace prize and complain there is zero content left todo.

 

To this point I would have to disagree. If anyone is at an advantage with a level cap increase it's the hardcore gamers who will grind out the new levels and content with a stretch and a yawn. The people who usually become upset are the casual and semi-hardcore once they realize that gear gaps will grow wider and accessibility of content will diminish.

 

My guess is HM EC will even be seen as "too easy" with a new tier of gear and progression. Any new 50s coming up will have an even harder time finding groups for HM BT, etc. in order to even get started in the Tionese set (provided it still even exists). When faced with this realization, coupled with the fact that the gear gap has just grown, I can imagine players new to the raiding and pvp scenes becoming frustrated.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Phrase

[Goretzu]

To this point I would have to disagree. If anyone is at an advantage with a level cap increase it's the hardcore gamers who will grind out the new levels and content with a stretch and a yawn. The people who usually become upset are the casual and semi-hardcore once they realize that gear gaps will grow wider and accessibility of content will diminish.

 

My guess is HM EC will even be seen as "too easy" with a new tier of gear and progression. Any new 50s coming up will have an even harder time finding groups for HM BT, etc. in order to even get started in the Tionese set (provided it still even exists). When faced with this realization, coupled with the fact that the gear gap has just grown, I can imagine players new to the raiding and pvp scenes becoming frustrated.

 

 

Yeah it's the middle that gets it worst and is largely the target for the game developer.

 

A raise like this every 18 months if acceptable, 12 months is the bare minimum IMO and anything under 12 month (say 9 or 6 months) is plain gouging the players IMO.

 

The only MMORPGs I've seen that do under 12 months are F2P/P2W ones, not subscription based ones.... and even those don't usually raise the level cap more than once every 12+ months.

[Mikebono]

Also don't forget that with lvl cap the mechanics changes.Pls stop cloning,you are going to screw up.

 

 

 

 

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments,

and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure

which has no relation to reality. (Nikola Tesla).

[Alavastre]

So more content = deal breaker?

Seems kind of strange. Though I do have to say it is interesting they are upping the level cap this soon, but I'm more happy than angry about more stuff.

[Phrase]

 

 

Yeah it's the middle that gets it worst and is largely the target for the game developer.

 

A raise like this every 18 months if acceptable, 12 months is the bare minimum IMO and anything under 12 month (say 9 or 6 months) is plain gouging the players IMO.

 

The only MMORPGs I've seen that do under 12 months are F2P/P2W ones, not subscription based ones.... and even those don't usually raise the level cap more than once every 12+ months.

 

Yeah, I think there is some misunderstanding about just how much these kinds of increases trivialize the progressions that preceded them especially if they happen too frequently. How many PvPers quit due to the gear changes. Champion went from a nerd-rage inducing RNG grind to do a couple rounds of dailies and plunk down your 350k. Battlemaster went from an insane valor and missile-clicking grind to a set any noob can grind in a week.

 

I wonder how progression raiders will feel when 300k or so will get you full Black Hole, and Campaign drops from HM BT. That's pretty much what a level cap increase will do; trivialize all of the current content. At least BW is letting people know upfront this time.

 

 

As far as f2p mmos, you usually pay to win in those anyway, so trivializing gear progression is a non-factor.

[DFade]

this game is Dead. PVP is so f.. boring. the same 4 wz over and over again, and now we have to grind for new gear, cause of new lvl cap. GJ bioware. Give us 1,2,3,4 new WZ and bring back a new designed Illum..... who gives a f... about spacegames or legacy... i want PVP.... thats the ticket to a good mmo. You just made me pre order GW2.. Edited June 5, 2012 by DFade

[Goretzu]

Yeah, I think there is some misunderstanding about just how much these kinds of increases trivialize the progressions that preceded them especially if they happen too frequently. How many PvPers quit due to the gear changes. Champion went from a nerd-rage inducing RNG grind to do a couple rounds of dailies and plunk down your 350k. Battlemaster went from an insane valor and missile-clicking grind to a set any noob can grind in a week.

 

I wonder how progression raiders will feel when 300k or so will get you full Black Hole, and Campaign drops from HM BT. That's pretty much what a level cap increase will do; trivialize all of the current content. At least BW is letting people know upfront this time.

 

 

As far as f2p mmos, you usually pay to win in those anyway, so trivializing gear progression is a non-factor.

 

 

Yeah, all MMORPGs are a treadmill, but there has to be some balance between the achievement and the steepness/speed of the treadmill.

 

If basically most people are grinding like mad for 3 months then only having 3 months of play with said gear before along comes another level raise and gear reset..........

 

Well that sounds less like a "game" and more like a Circle of Hell or Sisyphus condemmed to be pushing his boulder up the hill only for it always to return to the bottom.

[i_am_sancho]

I understand level cap raising is just another part of MMOs, but that doesn't change the fact that all my artifice and moneymaking and L50 grinding and perfecting my gameplay style and spec etc was for nothing. All my L50 armor and equippables are useless now. And it definitely is a massive turn off knowing that anything you do in the game between now and 1.3 is going to be forfeit. Why start another character? You could miss out on a bunch of mad changes not announced yet for 1.3. And why grind at L50? All the items, armor, daily/black hole etc commendations, it's all probably going to be removed from the game, or the stuff you have will be useless because you won't be able to use it until you reach the level cap.

 

My main gripe is that after playing a few characters to L50 i decided on Focus Guardian as my main. I made all purple hilts all the way to L49 and blue hilts for Kira in advance, helped the character out with some credit injections, saved up my ranked and normal wz commendations for some sweet BM gear, and basically had the whole thing planned from L1 to L50 so i could have the ultimate character. And now i find out it's been a massive waste of time.

 

I don't know how they're going to implement it but they have one hell of a task involved to do it. Like i said, i understand it's part of the MMO world and it can't be helped, but a smooth transition should be an absolute must. No L50 player is going to enjoy finding that they're no better off after (sometimes) months of grinding than someone who hasn't even started playing yet. I just hope they have a good plan or there'll be a lot of unsubs, and there's been too many already. But that's a story for another thread.

 

Please please please Bioware, just make it a good transition. I trust you know what you're all doing, so i'll wait until 1.3 comes out. But so help you if you get it wrong....so don't get it wrong.

 

EDIT: just found out it's only a 4 level cap raise and the update isn't due for about 2 months. Still bad, but not as much possibility for error as i thought. Good luck, Bioware.

Edited June 5, 2012 by i_am_sancho

[Bsunholy]

I've been playing MMOs for about 13 years now. It's the same conundrum, and developers can't really win. On one hand, the folks at the endgame want new content and goals. On the other hand when they get them, they complain that all that time spent getting what they had was wasted. I've been through it myself.

 

The secret to enjoying a MMO is simple.

 

If it's not fun, don't do it.

 

I'm not being snarky or condescending either. It's a lesson I learned by wasting hour after hour in digital worlds.

 

If you the only thing you enjoyed about grinding was the gear you got from it, then stop grinding.

 

If you're sick of the same PvP, stop PvPing.

 

No piece of gear or title will ever be enough to make up for a journey you didn't enjoy to get it. The journey IS the point, not the reward at the end of it.

[Methenu]

I've been playing MMOs for about 13 years now. It's the same conundrum, and developers can't really win. On one hand, the folks at the endgame want new content and goals. On the other hand when they get them, they complain that all that time spent getting what they had was wasted. I've been through it myself.

 

The secret to enjoying a MMO is simple.

 

If it's not fun, don't do it.

 

I'm not being snarky or condescending either. It's a lesson I learned by wasting hour after hour in digital worlds.

 

If you the only thing you enjoyed about grinding was the gear you got from it, then stop grinding.

 

If you're sick of the same PvP, stop PvPing.

 

No piece of gear or title will ever be enough to make up for a journey you didn't enjoy to get it. The journey IS the point, not the reward at the end of it.

 

^^^This

 

/thread

[Cornelias]

My thoughts exactly.

 

How can adding more levels and content be a game breaker?

 

I am guessing the OP also quites other MMO's when they launch an expansion because it adds more levels and content.

 

because it then makes it more of a grind for new players.....

 

no new players, game fails........