Ok, I relent, Sents/Maras need to be toned down

[fujeo-finel]

I'm a Merc and what is this?

[charoi]

Yes, i see the difference: UD is much much much much better than a stun. Stuns can fail, UD never fails and even if they incapacite you, cant kill you anyway.

 

What i meant was - there is only one ability that counter stun (except assasins), and there are a lot of abilities to counter UD.

 

Stuns can fail only against full resolve and assasin's def cd. But you would never use stun against either of these.

If mara uses UD and you cc him - you can kill him 5 seconds later while he do nothing (I presume I can call it "UD failed"). And don't forget, almost all cc have lower cd than UD.

 

I've got a feeling, that all maras would gladly trade UD for hard 4 sec stun without hesitation. Imagine - stun plus ravage and force scream. Trust me, it's better for us that maras won't get hard stun instead of UD. It will cause a lot more whine than current whine about UD :-)

Edited June 4, 2012 by charoi

[Nyaara]

What i meant was - there is only one ability that counter stun (except assasins), and there are a lot of abilities to counter UD.

 

Stuns can fail only against full resolve and assasin's def cd. But you would never use stun against either of these.

If mara uses UD and you cc him - you can kill him 5 seconds later while he do nothing (I presume I can call it "UD failed"). And don't forget, almost all cc have lower cd than UD.

 

I've got a feeling, that all maras would gladly trade UD for hard 4 sec stun without hesitation. Imagine - stun plus ravage and force scream. Trust me, it's better for us that maras won't get hard stun instead of UD. It will cause a lot more whine than current whine about UD :-)

 

No, you wont trade cos would be really stupid. You might kill one guy faster (if 2 min CC breaker is on cooldown or resolve bar not full ) but you would die much faster too cos NO PANIC button anymore plus medpacks and camo. I´d trade my melee range stun (im range dps) by UD right now and i ´d give you Dodge too. 5 secs inmune to damage? you kidding me?.

 

And yes, we can CC when is on UD but A Mara can be healed at 100% in 5 secs and you must take down same Mara again. This is not 8 vs1, you always fail with the same bad argument.

[charoi]

No, you wont trade cos would be really stupid. You might kill one guy faster (if 2 min CC breaker is on cooldown or resolve bar not full ) but you would die much faster too cos NO PANIC button anymore plus medpacks and camo. I´d trade my melee range stun (im range dps) by UD right now and i ´d give you Dodge too. 5 secs inmune to damage? you kidding me?.

 

And yes, we can CC when is on UD but A Mara can be healed at 100% in 5 secs and you must take down same Mara again. This is not 8 vs1, you always fail with the same bad argument.

 

Call it stupid, but if i were mara i would trade. Imo force camo is enough as panic button. And 5 sec 99% damage resistance does not help mara under cc (again there are really huge number of abilities to counter UD). And if mara kills 1 enemy faster - that's one less enemy to attack mara - less damage taken.

 

And please don't bring healer in this discussion cause it would really be stupid to attack mara to the point when he uses UD instead of killing healer. UD in and of itself does not heal mara.

Edited June 4, 2012 by charoi

[BambulaGTS]

Call it stupid, but if i were mara i would trade. Imo force camo is enough as panic button. And 5 sec 99% damage resistance does not help mara under cc (again there are really huge number of abilities to counter UD). And if mara kills 1 enemy faster - that's one less enemy to attack mara - less damage taken.

 

And please don't bring healer in this discussion cause it would really be stupid to attack mara to the point when he uses UD instead of killing healer. UD in and of itself does not heal mara.

 

If so do not trade anything, but UD reduces incoming healing by 100 % and let it be, you agree?

[DrexBane]

No, you wont trade cos would be really stupid. You might kill one guy faster (if 2 min CC breaker is on cooldown or resolve bar not full ) but you would die much faster too cos NO PANIC button anymore plus medpacks and camo. I´d trade my melee range stun (im range dps) by UD right now and i ´d give you Dodge too. 5 secs inmune to damage? you kidding me?.

 

And yes, we can CC when is on UD but A Mara can be healed at 100% in 5 secs and you must take down same Mara again. This is not 8 vs1, you always fail with the same bad argument.

 

 

I really like when ppl, who do not a class mechanics, are so sure about how things works.

 

I'm almost 90v, so I have played my class a bit, and I would trade UR for a 3-4 sec stun, everyday of my life.

 

1 vs 3-4 ppl is already a fail situation, you will day anyway, (obvious against good players) only 5 sec later, 90% of the times.

 

In HB ppl think UR is a win move, fyi in HB only win move is to pass the ball ....

[BambulaGTS]

I really like when ppl, who do not a class mechanics, are so sure about how things works.

 

I'm almost 90v, so I have played my class a bit, and I would trade UR for a 3-4 sec stun, everyday of my life.

 

1 vs 3-4 ppl is already a fail situation, you will day anyway, (obvious against good players) only 5 sec later, 90% of the times.

 

In HB ppl think UR is a win move, fyi in HB only win move is to pass the ball ....

 

Solo PUG much? UD is a huge win in a premade group with healer.

[DrexBane]

Solo PUG much? UD is a huge win in a premade group with healer.

 

then your premade must be very bad, both sides, if UD is a win move for you.

 

We usually focus their healers, so do reps dpses (yep I pvp only against reps, not enough ppl on my server), so my healers dont have much times to cure ppl 1 vs 3....we call them healing priorities.

 

tell me what happens after a mara get healed from 1 k to 9-11k and will still have 2-3 ppl on him....

 

cammo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UD

4 sec stun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UD

 

but prolly ppl will never understand that.

[SinnedWill]

Doesnt make sense that an offensive melee character has more defensive cooldowns than two of the tank archtypes.

 

(guardians/juggs and PT/VG)

 

 

Sents - (maras but not familiar with their abilities name)

Saberward

Redoubt

stealth

99% reduction in accuracy debuff

guarded by the force

 

Guards - (juggs)

Saberward

hp buff

hp regen for force

(if spec 40% reduction in danage for 14 points)

 

VG - PT

25% damage reduction

HP regen buff

 

 

Thats it, so a dps class has more baseline defensive cooldowns than two of the main tank advance classes.

 

Superior defenses, superior offense....super silly.

 

The only spec that really stands out among maras/sents due to defensives is the annihilation/watchman spec (due to self-healing being so effective when combined with how they use the defensive CD's). I play a carnage marauder, personally, and even with all defensive CD's ready, I can lose a 1v1 to any good player of any class (mercs/commandos might need to use a cybertech grenade - either stun/knockdown, root, or slow, doesn't matter, they can all turn the tide). Annihilation/Watchman specs reap huge increases in survivability because they can self-heal during all of their cooldowns - other specs do not (and are crazy suqishy even with all defensive cooldowns ready for use).

Juggs/Guardians and all other classes that have a tank spec have more effecitve means of survivability in the form of taunts (having multiple taunt-tossers on the same team leads to increased survivability for everyone and its reduction value is >30% if the target has expertise due to the game's mechanics). Tack on the fact that all tank-specced tank classes tend to get some of the best CC/utility (usually both) and you'll realise that proper execution of these provide far more effective means of survivability than marauder has even if they can use all defensive cooldowns (a good team will almost always cause a mara/sent to die without getting to pop their bubble).

[DweezillKagemand]

Obviously the solution is to nerf Operative.

[BambulaGTS]

then your premade must be very bad, both sides, if UD is a win move for you.

 

We usually focus their healers, so do reps dpses (yep I pvp only against reps, not enough ppl on my server), so my healers dont have much times to cure ppl 1 vs 3....we call them healing priorities.

 

tell me what happens after a mara get healed from 1 k to 9-11k and will still have 2-3 ppl on him....

 

cammo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UD

4 sec stun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UD

 

but prolly ppl will never understand that.

 

So smarty how u will go after someone healers as melee if they stand in friendly crowd? Probably with UD and camo and your healer, no?

 

Cause the chances you will be blown up in a few GCDs by multiple peelers are high, or on your server your mara is kinda tanky?

[LarryRow]

You do realize that 6 seconds is a lot in pvp, and a sentinel/marauder can easily down you to 50% hp or less in those 4 gcds? Unless you stun or root him (not all the ACs have a 4s+ root) but if you waste your stun to avoid being damaged in those 6 seconds, you'll eat GbtF/UR+medpac. Otherwise, you'll be snared and will take a lot of damage in those 6 seconds (Knockbacks do damage, snares do damage, so you cant really kite them without damaging).

 

I'm glad someone pointed this out. Marauders have so many tools, and the answer is always to cc them somehow. Cloak of Pain that keeps giving them 20% damage reduction unless you let it expire? Use cc. -90% accuracy debuff so you can't hit back? Use cc. 99% damage reduction from Undying Rage? Use cc. Marauder hits you with Gore and then goes into a talented Ravage that roots? Use cc.

 

With Cloak of Pain it's often wise to just suck it up and save your best toys for their other mega skills. 20% damage reduction is nice, but between medium armor and modest hp, they go down pretty quick when their cooldowns are unavailable.

 

I don't know about you guys, but the only "nerf" I want is a much more visually obvious cue that Undying Rage or the accuracy debuff (name?) has been popped. I find it very hard to see if I am zoomed out, which I often am in an 8v8 warzone.

[AmorphousCro]

Dual Sabers were given survivability to close gaps against classes who can do massive damage at range and against Ops bosses. It's unreasonable to nerf them if any semblance of class balance is to be achieved in the future.

 

Edit: I'm a 50 commando. I hate fighting dual saber classes but nerfing them hurts the game in the long run.

Edited June 4, 2012 by AmorphousCro

[ComeAndSee]

As I said, it's just two abilities that make Sentinel's stronger than other classes defense wise.

 

Cooldown: 60s

Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals 134 energy damage to attackers. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. Cloak of Pain refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total.

 

This ability gives Marauders better passive mitigation than Tanks and its on low cooldown. It refreshes on DOTs and AOEs which is really the big thing that makes this too powerful in mass PvP situations. 1v1 yeah you can see it and stop attacking until it falls off, but in mass PvP it's almost impossible to notice it under the light show of colors. In comparison my Reactive Shield is 25% damage reduction for 12s on a 2 minute cooldown.

 

Remove the ability for this to refresh on dot ticks and AOEs and increase its cooldown. Also, prevent the stupid damage reflect from interrupting my Full Auto. u-u

 

Undying Rage

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds.

 

This ability is like the Paladin Bubble from WoW, but more akin to Cheat Death. It's almost universally used when at low HP so the 50% health reduction isn't punishing unless you're using it purposely to run over the fire hazards in Huttball.

 

What irks me about this ability is the fact that Sentinel's can still do full damage while under its effect. I would be perfectly happy to see the health reduction gone and a damage penalty implemented (50%).

 

Force Cloak

Instant

Cooldown: 180s

Uses the Force to make you vanish from sight, immediately exiting combat and entering stealth mode. For 10 seconds, you become virtually undetectable, but all healing done and received is decreased by 100%.

 

This is an example of a well balanced defensive ability.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[LiveandDieinLA]

I'm glad someone pointed this out. Marauders have so many tools, and the answer is always to cc them somehow. Cloak of Pain that keeps giving them 20% damage reduction unless you let it expire? Use cc. -90% accuracy debuff so you can't hit back? Use cc. 99% damage reduction from Undying Rage? Use cc. Marauder hits you with Gore and then goes into a talented Ravage that roots? Use cc.

 

With Cloak of Pain it's often wise to just suck it up and save your best toys for their other mega skills. 20% damage reduction is nice, but between medium armor and modest hp, they go down pretty quick when their cooldowns are unavailable.

 

I don't know about you guys, but the only "nerf" I want is a much more visually obvious cue that Undying Rage or the accuracy debuff (name?) has been popped. I find it very hard to see if I am zoomed out, which I often am in an 8v8 warzone.

 

If every single thing a class did was always counterable without the use of an important cd (a cc in this case) then that class would be totally useless. Yes, you dont have enough CC to counter every single one of a mara's cds or attacks, and that is the way it should be.

[SinnedWill]

As I said, it's just two abilities that make Sentinel's stronger than other classes defense wise.

 

 

 

This ability gives Marauders better passive mitigation than Tanks and its on low cooldown. It refreshes on DOTs and AOEs which is really the big thing that makes this too powerful in mass PvP situations. 1v1 yeah you can see it and stop attacking until it falls off, but in mass PvP it's almost impossible to notice it under the light show of colors. In comparison my Reactive Shield is 25% damage reduction for 12s on a 2 minute cooldown.

 

Remove the ability for this to refresh on dot ticks and AOEs and increase its cooldown. Also, prevent the stupid damage reflect from interrupting my Full Auto. u-u

 

 

 

This ability is like the Paladin Bubble from WoW, but more akin to Cheat Death. It's almost universally used when at low HP so the 50% health reduction isn't punishing unless you're using it purposely to run over the fire hazards in Huttball.

 

What irks me about this ability is the fact that Sentinel's can still do full damage while under its effect. I would be perfectly happy to see the health reduction gone and a damage penalty implemented (50%).

 

 

This is an example of a well balanced defensive ability.

 

1.) On my marauder, Cloak of Pain gets wasted ~ 75% of the time (due to getting hit with mez, AoE mez, a slow + kiting, a root, getting ignored for its duration, etc...). Yes, it can last a long time (30s if I pop it after I see that someone has put a long-duration DoT on me - but that's retroactive, and I'm likely to be getting focus-fired by the time I realise it and throw it up). Our damage mitigation with this active is ~ equivalent to a tank-spec only for non-white damage, white damage, however, gets further mitigated by their (tanks) shields. When compared to your ranged character with your bubble, you have nothing to complain about since you can actually dish out damage from range and kite, maras/sents can't (if you're P-tech/VG, yes, I understand the bulk of your damage occurs in close quarters, but you can still dish out decent damage from range).

 

2.) Undying Rage IS an "oh crud" button. Used retroactively and situationally for best effect (with the exception of crossing fire pits, as you pointed out). Due to its sacrificial benefits, it is best used when at low health (we try to pop it ~20% health or below) - this causes it to be easily predictable in its application and a properly timed stun is sufficient to cause a mara/sent to die without getting the chance to use it at all (maras/sents tend to use their stun-breaks while on damage rampages so they can maximize their offensive prowess, so this is almost always on cooldown when dying). If they removed its 50% current hp sacrifice in favor for a 50% damage reduction, it will cause more QQ since maras/sents will use it as openers to build rage/debuff/apply DoT's at the last second/obtain shockwave stacks (depending on the spec) and then they will unleash hell with their big damage once it has expired - trust me, this would result in an overall buff to maras/sents.

 

3.) Your example of a well-balanced defensive ability (force cloak's BASE effect for assassins/shadows) can be talented to have no healing received penalty and shorter cooldown timer, so that's a bad example.

[Cerdo_hormiguero]

Force Cloak is an example of a well balanced defensive ability.

 

Force Cloak is way OP: it's much stronger than stealth classes' version.

 

I'd rather have Mara/Sent "stealth" than my Shadow's.

-- 45s cd (vs 2-3min vanish cd Shadows have)

-- can't be knocked out of stealth by dmg (Shadows and Scoundrels have to stack a 2nd cd for that)

-- 30% speed (Shadows have to stack a 3rd cd for that, albeit gaining 50% speed)

-- 50% less dmg taken (crazy)

Edited June 4, 2012 by Cerdo_hormiguero

[SinnedWill]

If every single thing a class did was always counterable without the use of an important cd (a cc in this case) then that class would be totally useless. Yes, you dont have enough CC to counter every single one of a mara's cds or attacks, and that is the way it should be.

 

Don't need to waste a CC for obfuscate or saber ward - just learn to recognize its icons (or notice that you're suddenly missing with ranged/melee attacks) and simply use your tech/force attacks until they expire - every class has enough tech/force attacks to last for their durations - maras/sents having the least. Cloak of pain's damage mitigation is decent, but also doesn't REQUIRE wasting a CC for (contrary to popular belief it seems, maras/sents still die with a quickness despite having it active). The only significant defensive CD maras/sents have that should require a CC (not always, mind you) is Undying Rage - and its predictable application window makes it go unused with a properly timed stun followed by some burst damage to finish them off.

[SinnedWill]

Force Cloak is way OP: it's much stronger than stealth classes' version.

 

I'd rather have Mara/Sent "stealth" than my Shadow's.

-- 45s cd (vs 2-3min vanish cd Shadows have)

-- can't be knocked out of stealth by dmg (Shadows and Scoundrels have to stack a 2nd cd for that)

-- 30% speed (Shadows have to stack a 3rd cd for that, albeit gaining 50% speed)

-- 50% less dmg taken (crazy)

 

Force Cloak is the assassin's mirror to Vanish. Force camo is the mara/sent cloak. It doesn't take us out of combat, like force cloak does (which has far more significant tactical advantages with proper application - i.e. use it and apply an out of combat mez, use it in conjunction with force shroud -whatever the shadow's mirror is- so as to remove DoT's from breaking it and retreat to use your regenerating ability, etc). Also, the speed bonus from force camo is to counter the fact that we are stealthed + in combat debuffs to movement speed (thus, you will be moving just as fast, or faster, based upon spec) - only a carnage specced marauder will move faster while force camo is active (compared to assassins/shadows that don't have the 15% movement speed talent bonus). Its damage reduction is a joke (for DoT's due to how short force camo lasts) and the only significant difference it makes for us is when AoE's go off on us while we're in the area (namely orbital strike/death field and their mirrors - this pretty much buys us time to escape orbital strike without taking huge damage).

I'd suggest actually playing a mara/sent and using this ability before you make judgements on its effectiveness -I tend to use it offensively much more than for retreating purposes, personally- or its benefits. Yes, it's great, but you can't compare it to force cloak due to how differently they operate -I certainly wouldn't trade my assassin's force cloak for it-.

Edited June 4, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Ngamok]

Marauders need every one of them or they will die in half a second. Shouldn't you be complaining about Powertech/Vanguard DPS?

 

Nah, VGs and PTs die pretty fast since they only have 1 defensive buff. It's either they kill you or die trying.

[Nyaara]

Call it stupid, but if i were mara i would trade. Imo force camo is enough as panic button. And 5 sec 99% damage resistance does not help mara under cc (again there are really huge number of abilities to counter UD). And if mara kills 1 enemy faster - that's one less enemy to attack mara - less damage taken.

 

And please don't bring healer in this discussion cause it would really be stupid to attack mara to the point when he uses UD instead of killing healer. UD in and of itself does not heal mara.

 

Pls, dont bring the ""CC Mara when UD, you nubs" cos my only stun i got (45 segs cooldown) is usually in cooldown cos i spent to kill the healer first.

 

I told again, this is not 8vs1. My class have not 25 stuns, 45 snares etcetc. Is always the same bad argument:

 

Ravage OP? oh noes, just CC the Mara or kite or whatever you want to

Cloak of Pain OP? oh no, just dont refresh it, wait there while he crushes you

UD OP? oh no, just CC the Mara again or stop the clock during 5 secs so he can destroy you

etcetcetc and blablabla

 

We are not stupid. Marauders in ranked will be a killing machine if BW doesnt do anything. There is no reason to bring a range dps class cos Mara are much better now. So, or they buff ranged classes or they nerf Maras? Guess what is easier to do?

 

We know, you know.

[SinnedQWERTY]

Doesnt make sense that an offensive melee character has more defensive cooldowns than two of the tank archtypes.

 

(guardians/juggs and PT/VG)

 

 

Sents - (maras but not familiar with their abilities name)

Saberward

Redoubt

stealth

99% reduction in accuracy debuff

guarded by the force

 

Guards - (juggs)

Saberward

hp buff

hp regen for force

(if spec 40% reduction in danage for 14 points)

 

VG - PT

25% damage reduction

HP regen buff

 

 

Thats it, so a dps class has more baseline defensive cooldowns than two of the main tank advance classes.

 

Superior defenses, superior offense....super silly.

 

I'm not trying to defend them, I will say up front I enjoy my alt marauder a lot and mostly try to pvp when I can. I have way to many alts and most of them are around 45... 2 50's ... so I did play against them in most pvp flavors out there.

 

But the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are really spammy with their stuns/cc's. I admit, I been doing this also. I also understand you can't safe em forever. But people are really spammy with them.

 

It really hurts if a maruader/sent decides to jump you just then... when you used your stun, slow and root just now... on that full resolve ball carrier. Again, I know ... not everyone does this and maybe they need some tweaking, but dear god...

 

Stop spamming your CC's and safe em when you need em.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[Superawesomerman]

Battlemaster: class is op.

 

War hero: player is op.

 

Conqueror: class is op.

 

Warlord: player is op.

[arkzehhh]

Still trying to nerf mara/sents? Don't live in the past! Today's theme is "Nerf Powertechs!".

 

this, someone make a new thread..asappp!!!

[DrexBane]

So smarty how u will go after someone healers as melee if they stand in friendly crowd? Probably with UD and camo and your healer, no?

 

Cause the chances you will be blown up in a few GCDs by multiple peelers are high, or on your server your mara is kinda tanky?

 

ok,

 

I think you have some strange tactics on your server...

 

If our healers stand in same postion w/o moving and kiting, they will be destroied by aoe, so as all other genius that stand in that postion.... its even harder to heal someone, if you, as healer get constantly dmg.... (moving kiting is too important (snare > root > los.... save lifes)

 

and fyi.. in a gcd you will not always kill a skilled healer in a group of skilled player, can happen sure, but not often... maybe 10% of the times.

 

By that you can understand that UR is almost never, a win ability.