0/28/13, an AP hybrid spec experiment

[Varicite]

1. Relax, lighten up, and realize that the advice you are getting is not what you wanted to hear. We are not against you or anything new. There is just no evidence except your word that this build works. Unfortunately, all the numbers and prior testing reveals they don't work. Check my Tibetan Candle posts.

 

2. Take the points from PFT, Surge boost, IM and Ione other abilityput it in shield tech for RS damage, steely resolve, and fire damage. That will improve your FB spam kiting. It will also give you a marked improvement in damage and simplify your rotation to prevent overheating even better.

 

3. Scrap this build and try something new. It has issues that everyone has listed.

 

That may not be what you want to hear, but this is the advice each of us has given you.

 

Just a few things: The laugh is still there, or most definitely was these past few days. That is, unless Galactuzz just likes to spam the laugh emote while he fights...

 

Oh, I'm relaxed. I don't come across very well in forums, but I'm really a pretty mellow person in game, lol.

 

I may try your suggestion for going into ST for fire boosts and Aim talent this weekend. I do still like having the damage at range option, but IM is really just way too costly in this spec. I like my RS only costing 8 heat and refreshing CGC, though, so we shall see.

 

As for scrapping the build, I'll do that when I actually encounter any of the issues you've mentioned. No, I don't care if you think it's awesome. I respected the opinions of the people on this board, but it really just seems like you guys are like "I don't think that will work, so it cannot possibly work", whereas I am telling you "It seems to actually be working pretty well so far, despite what you've said here."

 

My experiences don't match what you've been telling me, so I'm skeptical. Then I've got Agooz telling me he kills Marauders by bursting them to 25%, stunning, and killing them, and that this is just how he commonly deals w/ all Marauders and that works 9/10 times.

 

Then I've got you telling me how snares are worthless in PvP compared to a laughable 15% run speed boost (w/ no snare capability in your tree) when everybody and their mama is tossing snares around in PvP.

 

I'm sorry, but statements like those are simply difficult to fathom, because what you guys are saying does not really match up to real world experiences.

 

PS) I don't think I ever said I was an amazing player, or even anything better than "decent". : )

[LoKiei]

Clearly you dont know how to play a Pyro then. I am not trying to insult you. It's just that I refuse to believe I am THAT awesome in PvP and every single Marauder/Sent on my server sucks; especially that there is 1 PT for every 10 marauders in PvP. Bring or find any Maurader/Sent on Begeren Colony and have them find "Galambo" in WZs and we'll see how "easily" they can take down a decent Pyro.

 

Considering you don't duel, it's difficult for me to think you have actually been able to see how pyro is 1v1 a marauder or tanksin.

 

WZ enviroments don't accuratly measure 1v1 effectiveness.

[Agooz]

....it has nothing to do w/ my spec. I can also kill Marauders who don't know how to do anything but stand there and then pop UR when they're low.

 

Those are called "bad players".

 

It has everything to do with your spec. Stop talking about good/bad players. You're the one who is hung up on that. I am talking purely mechanics, and you're arguing with hypothetical scenarios.

 

From my perspective, being a 31Pyro, I have the following:

- Much higher bursts, especially as an opener, but also as a finisher if a fight lasts 15sec+

- Higher crit

- RS every 6sec

- Higher dot dmg at 30% and below

- 3x longer damage mitigation due to 18sec shield + Energy rebounder.

- 4% mitigation from (Combust)

- 4% higher damage on Fire Attacks (2/3 Intimidation)

- 9% more damage on RP, RS, Unload, Rapid Shot.

- Higher IM damage. (not that it matters, but you seem to think so and have it talented)

- Higher surge on IM, CGC, RS

- Much better Heat venting allowing for more ability spam instead of holding back or using Rapid shot.

 

Your Spec has:

- HO

- FT that does up to 46% more when stacked 5x

- Retractable Blade

- 2% mitigation from (Power Armor)

- 30% chance to get a free Rocket Punch

- Higher chance for a crit RS, at best every 15sec.

- 30% higher Surge on FB and RP (so your FBs and RPs are doing about 10-15% more damage 1 out of 4 times, assuming a 25% base crit chance)

- 70% snare every 10sec or so, at best every 8sec. (almost useless on a marauder since he's in your face anyways)

- 2sec reduced CD on Quell (useless on a marauder)

- Reduced Cooldown on Grapple and FT (I guess maybe slightly useful if you actually manage 2 fully stacked PFTs in one fight against a marauder without over heating)

 

Tell us again, how you found full 31Pyro lacking or having less of a win ratio than your spec? because not even someone who hasnt played the PT class would be confused just looking at these facts.

[Agooz]

Considering you don't duel, it's difficult for me to think you have actually been able to see how pyro is 1v1 a marauder or tanksin.

 

WZ enviroments don't accuratly measure 1v1 effectiveness.

 

Great point. So I will submit to you. Marauders easily kill Pyro in duels, which obviously amounts to what, 1% of the PvP experience? ok

For the rest of us that PvP in WZs, you're completely wrong.

 

Using your logic, one should say that an Operative Healer is 10x better than a Marauder in PvE because they can solo Heroic4. I also think that even that happens more often than duels. lol

 

Good thing the devs are not balancing classes based on 1v1 duels.

 

Just one more thing, does going to capture a node solo vs 1 or 2 people counts as Duels? How about when they come back to try to take it and I am expecting them? or when someone attacks me and I turn around and target them? Does it have to be a 5 second countdown in a 10m radius to qualify as a duel? just wondering since I am inexperienced with that aspect of PvP.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Agooz

[Varicite]

It has everything to do with your spec. Stop talking about good/bad players. You're the one who is hung up on that. I am talking purely mechanics, and you're arguing with hypothetical scenarios.

 

From my perspective, being a 31Pyro, I have the following:

- Much higher bursts, especially as an opener, but also as a finisher if a fight lasts 15sec+

- Higher crit

- RS every 6sec

- Higher dot dmg at 30% and below

- 3x longer damage mitigation due to 18sec shield + Energy rebounder.

- 4% mitigation from (Combust)

- 4% higher damage on Fire Attacks (2/3 Intimidation)

- 9% more damage on RP, RS, Unload, Rapid Shot.

- Higher IM damage. (not that it matters, but you seem to think so and have it talented)

- Higher surge on IM, CGC, RS

- Much better Heat venting allowing for more ability spam instead of holding back or using Rapid shot.

 

Your Spec has:

- HO

- FT that does up to 46% more when stacked 5x

- Retractable Blade

- 2% mitigation from (Power Armor)

- 30% chance to get a free Rocket Punch

- Higher chance for a crit RS, at best every 15sec.

- 30% higher Surge on FB and RP (so your FBs and RPs are doing about 10-15% more damage 1 out of 4 times, assuming a 25% base crit chance)

- 70% snare every 10sec or so, at best every 8sec. (almost useless on a marauder since he's in your face anyways)

- 2sec reduced CD on Quell (useless on a marauder)

- Reduced Cooldown on Grapple and FT (I guess maybe slightly useful if you actually manage 2 fully stacked PFTs in one fight against a marauder without over heating)

 

Tell us again, how you found full 31Pyro lacking or having less of a win ratio than your spec? because not even someone who hasnt played the PT class would be confused just looking at these facts.

 

I'm not sure what more I can tell you about the Mara matchup that you keep asking about. I was only using this as an example because my fiance happens to play one, and that's whom I had available to duel for testing. I found good Marauders to be a pain on my Pyro, I find them a lot less of a pain currently. I'm not sure where you're getting that I have a problem fighting Marauders in general.

 

I pretty much told you exactly how a fight against a Marauder goes currently using my spec. It's very thoroughly detailed, right down to how much heat I'm looking at usually. I'm still tweaking it, obviously, but hey, it's a work in progress. /shrug

 

I also asked you how you deal w/ a Marauders cooldowns, which you still have not even attempted to explain.

 

There's nothing hypothetical about Marauder cooldowns. They have them, and in a 1v1, you will have to be prepared for them. That's why I duel. I practice, practice, practice.

 

But you're right, everything doesn't revolve around 1v1. In WZ situations, you have a lot of variables. That's exactly where the spec shines most, because you can pick someone off at range if necessary, run a huttball the last few meters, hold your own against most classes in any 1v1 situation, escape for LoS if necessary, shut down any casting spec, peel, entangle groups, etc. The list really goes on.

 

In the end, though, it's just a variant of a spec that I didn't know still existed, so this discussion probably doesn't matter much in the long run anyway. I'm sorry that you can't seem to fathom why I would choose to go w/ this setup, but I'm going to play w/ it for a little longer. If it turns out to be terrible when I have better gear for it, I can always switch to a full AP or grind out a Pyro set.

 

As for your question, I already told you. More than once, actually. I killed less people when I was spec'd Pyro because the enemy had more healers on their teams by then, and were cross-healing eachother. Maybe I do simply suck as Pyro, as I was unable to burst through 2-3 healers spam healing my targets w/ multiple Tankasins/Shadows rotating guards and taunting effectively. And the other part was that I have been playing a VERY different spec for the past week or so, and it took a little bit to readjust to the more aggressive nature of Pyro.

 

PS) Of course I've bursted a Mara down to 50% in a WZ as a Pyro, but that has absolutely zero bearing on whether that happens against a good Mara w/ cooldowns ready.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Varicite

[TheOpf]

One last thing, No one is saying the spec isn't playable. We are saying there are better ways to do it. We don't see the value in your spec. Ion Cell AP and Pyro guys always claim their spec is great, but anyone who as gone full dps than gone Ion Cell version realizes how laughable they really are.

 

 

Playable does not mean advisable or even that you should be doing it. Heck I can drive a car while texting, watching a movie, and eating lunch. Does that mean I should do it or that there isn't a better way to do it?

 

Essentially you are driving your car with low oil with your alignment out of whack, and telling us it's better than the Porsche 911 Turbo, the Ford F150 with extended cab, and the Tesla. So yes, we are saying it doesn't make sense when we look at it. Why drive a Buick when you can drive a Porsche for the same cost?

 

No one is saying your build can't be played or even get you where you are going, the question is why run something that's obviously less productive?

 

I can do more damage and have better utility running the Norse, the Maverick, and full Pyro. I don't care about ranged so I play the Norse for pvp, because I like to be in melee range. Have you tried the Norse yet?

 

The Norse build while no where near as powerful as the Deep Pyro and about 4-5 percent less powerful than AP is perhaps the spec I have the most fun with simply because of it's utility, mobility, and damage reduction talents. Granted, I swap to Pyro sometimes so I can feel powerful. In fact, my guild is really close to making me have to come as pyro for Progression raids because in Pyro I am the top dps by about 4-5 percent. In AP, I am tied with the sniper and sorceror, and In Norse I am about 2 percent behind them both.

Edited June 1, 2012 by TheOpf

[Agooz]

I also asked you how you deal w/ a Marauders cooldowns, which you still have not even attempted to explain.

 

LOL. 90% of what I do in a WZ on my PT is second nature to me. Everything I do is out of habit, and doesnt require much strategizing and thought process at this point. I already explained to you what I do, and it IS as simple as I have explained it. You just dont accept it because 1) you havent been playing your PT for a long time. 2) Running a spec that requires more effort and a lot of luck to accomplish the same thing, and still falling short.

 

Why do you even suggest that how I deal with a Marauder is for some reason way different from how YOU deal with one? It is not like your spec gives you a TOTALLY different arsenal or abilities that are foreign to a Pyro's or a full AP. Maybe I do the same exact thing against a marauder with full CDs, but I will still do it better and faster than you, not because I am a better player, but because as a pyro spec I lack nothing of real value that your spec brings, and gain a lot more survivability, burst, dps, heat management.

 

I can not believe it is taking that many pages to argue the same thing. And the reason I keep mentioning "Marauder" is because YOU brought it up when you said Pyro has less of a win ratio vs this spec. I am sorry, but that is utter and complete nonsense. The question should NEVER be how a full Pyro or a full AP or even a full ST deals with a Marauder with full CDs. The question IS, how does YOUR spec, deal with not just one marauder but then continues to fight right after. That is why duels means ABSOLUTELY nothing, and you learn ABSOLUTELY nothing from them, because duels dont account for ANY of the variables that occur in WZs. All that duels accomplish is create unfounded QQing on the forums.

 

In a WZ you dont get free heat venting, count down before your start fighting someone, or a recharge after every fight, or the "wow wow, hold on a sec, my cooldowns arent ready yet" option. That is why the heat issue of this spec, is probably the biggest FAIL of it. You may succeed at taking out someone, but the spec will never have the stamina to pump out non-stop dps for 2min straight fighting in the middle node of civil war, or for 3min without a chance to breath at the door of Voidstar.

 

The point that you keep dodging and that TheOpf and I have been asking you, how does this spec give you ANY advantage over a full Pyro or AP. Your spec gains what? the utilities of an AP? Fine, how is it better than a Full AP? you say because you have CGC and its snare? Fine, we asked then why not go Full AP with CGC? Obviously IM and Superheated Rail are no where NEAR the effectiveness of Immolate and Stabilized Armor, especially against a marauder.

 

Saying that you can get a good feel of different specs, after you had a character on the shelf for quite some time and after a major update, in ONE night, is all I really needed to hear. Hec even if you have been playing a PT from day one, you cant possibly get an accurate feel for a spec in a couple of WZ games.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Agooz

[Varicite]

I do get what you are trying to say.

 

The builds that you linked don't seem to perform as well as mine has been for what I'm doing with it. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

 

I don't find that I need PPA at all, and as such, would rather have the abilities I am using MOST hit harder. That's really the only difference between the Maverick that we're talking here. I don't put 3 points in PPA, and instead take the Surge talent. It's really not a huge difference. I don't see what makes you say that the Maverick is somehow a viable and recommended spec, but if you move 3 points it suddenly becomes trash.

 

Shifting the focus off of Flame Burst and over to PPA sounds good on paper, but when you are actually trying to USE the Maverick in the same fashion that I was using my spec, there becomes a few very small mechanical annoyances that I didn't like.

 

For starters, Rail Shot in this spec does not hit all that hard. It's about 3k, like I said. Flame Burst is about 2.2k (FB +CGC, both can crit individually), Flame Burst has a high chance to crit thanks to talents, keeps my opponent at bay, AND builds a stack of PFT. It synergizes far better than Rail Shot in almost every fashion.

 

In practice, I'd rather use a Flame Burst than 1 extra Rail Shot per rotation, even w/ the heat vent. This is not a decision based on damage. I do not simply run into peoples' faces and burst them until they are dead, so I don't need to base all of my decisions on what is the highest DPS all the time. I kill through steady damage and control.

 

Secondly, the Rail Shot heat vent is nice in theory, but I'm already used to keeping my heat in line. I did my best to show how I can do this w/out having to hold off on my dps very much, but you guys still seem skeptical. That's fine. I didn't think a spec w/out any heat venting would work either until I actually tried it. It was frustrating for the first day or so, but after that, I haven't had heat issues outside of extremely extended fighting situations. <- This happens FAR more rarely than my being able to kill someone at range w/ Exp. Dart > IM > RS > Unload. : )

 

So the heat vent becomes a "nice-to-have" in this case, not a necessity, and NOT worth 3 talent points, imo. If I were going higher to make my Rail Shots my main damage ability (as they used to be in this spec), then I'd think otherwise, but as it stands, they are only going to land for about 1k more than a Flame Burst before mitigation. Not worth it, imo.

 

I don't think that you are at all grasping the playstyle, and as such, cannot fathom why I would choose to spec this way. As many times as I've tried to tell you that the spec isn't about doing max burst or max dps, you keep trying to tell me to drop important utility talents in favor of percentage damage increases.

 

Your spec is an "in your face" brutal spec, as is Pyro. Mine is not. Mine is about finesse and control. I do not need to burst someone down if they cannot hit me back in most instances. In that situation, all I need is to continue doing steady damage and they will die. This encompasses most melee classes.

 

I do not need extreme burst to kill a healer, because I have respectable damage and can shut almost any healer down. Any healer that relies on casting cannot do so when I'm on them, and they cannot escape from me. Period. Do you know what happens to someone when they are getting damaged and can't heal and can't get away? That's right, they die. This encompasses most ranged classes.

 

Let's get something straight here: I don't have "no burst". I have marginally smaller "burst" than AP. I hit harder than full AP w/ my Flame Bursts thanks to CGC, and not as hard on my Flamethrower. Flamethrower still hits hard enough to kill things, or force a panic. Yes, I am missing 14% more fire damage, since I'm not running in HEGC or have Intimidation.

 

Do you know what 8k - 14% is? 7446. OH NO! I AM ONLY HITTING PEOPLE FOR 7.5k INSTEAD OF 8k! Seriously, not a big deal when you really think about what we're talking about here.

 

I suppose it never occured to you that a Buick gets much better gas mileage than a Porsche? For the same cost, the Buick will take you farther, even if the Porsche will travel shorter distances faster.

 

This experiment is to see if I can get more mileage out of a utility/control-based spec than a burst-focused one. I think that I can. You obviously think that I can't.

 

Time will tell, I suppose.

[TheOpf]

I own a Buick it doesn't get better gas mileage ;p

[Varicite]

Why do you even suggest that how I deal with a Marauder is for some reason way different from how YOU deal with one? It is not like your spec gives you a TOTALLY different arsenal or abilities that are foreign to a Pyro's or a full AP. Maybe I do the same exact thing against a marauder with full CDs, but I will still do it better and faster than you, not because I am a better player, but because as a pyro spec I lack nothing of real value that your spec brings, and gain a lot more survivability, burst, dps, heat management.

 

I can not believe it is taking that many pages to argue the same thing. And the reason I keep mentioning "Marauder" is because YOU brought it up when you said Pyro has less of a win ratio vs this spec. I am sorry, but that is utter and complete nonsense. The question should NEVER be how a full Pyro or a full AP or even a full ST deals with a Marauder with full CDs. The question IS, how does YOUR spec, deal with not just one marauder but then continues to fight right after. That is why duels means ABSOLUTELY nothing, and you learn ABSOLUTELY nothing from them, because duels dont account for ANY of the variables that occur in WZs. All that duels accomplish is create unfounded QQing on the forums.

 

The point that you keep dodging and that TheOpf and I have been asking you, how does this spec give you ANY advantage over a full Pyro or AP. Your spec gains what? the utilities of an AP? Fine, how is it better than a Full AP? you say because you have CGC and its snare? Fine, we asked then why not go Full AP with CGC? Obviously IM and Superheated Rail are no where NEAR the effectiveness of Immolate and Stabilized Armor, especially against a marauder.

 

Saying that you can get a good feel of different specs, after you had a character on the shelf for quite some time and after a major update, in ONE night, is all I really needed to hear. Hec even if you have been playing a PT from day one, you cant possibly get an accurate feel for a spec in a couple of WZ games.

 

Look, if you're arguing that Pyro is somehow better than AP against a Marauder, that's just... not correct. Sorry.

 

How exactly is Stabilized Armor helping you against a Marauder, who has 0 stuns? It's not. (okay, you can reduce the Force Choke damage by 20%, lulz)

 

How does Immolate help you more than FB+CGC+snare when you're keeping a Mara out of melee range? That's right, it doesn't.

 

I don't use IM on Marauders, I use it on people at long distances that I'm picking off between targets. Superheated Rail is helpful because it makes my Rail Shot cost 8 heat, refreshes CGC (which re-procs the 50% snare at longer range than 10m), and just as icing on the cake, ignores 30% more armor.

 

So there you go, my reasoning for why full AP isn't as good as a hybrid for this particular fight.

 

What don't you have as Pyro that I do, you ask? Hydraulic Overrides, an extra DoT for kiting, Prototype Flamethrower for burst, a harder hitting main attack, and not that these matter for a Marauder, but faster grapple and interrupts.

 

How can I continue fighting after I kill that Marauder? I can vent after I drop combat.

 

Instead of being so focused on "OMG NO, YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY DO THAT", why not try to understand that I'm not fighting players the same way that you are, so I don't need to overpower them w/ heavy dps and burst.

 

Duels teach you how to deal w/ classes appropriately, and to be ready for whatever they can possibly throw at you. PvP is a chess game of feint and counter-feint, a series of 1v1, 2v2, 1v2, etc. All of those abilities come into play, and you should know how to react to every single one. The only way to do this is to practice, practice, practice, and you cannot do this efficiently in a hectic environment like a WZ.

 

I'm not suggesting that you fight Maras differently than I do as a Pyro, because let's be honest, Pyro really does not have a lot of varied avenues of play, lol. What I am suggesting, however, is that is a sloppy technique.

 

You want to talk about luck? You are counting on bursting a Marauder down through 45% damage reduction, 50% ranged defense, another 90% defense cd, Force Camo, and Undying Rage before he can kill you through ONE 25% damage reduction shield, and you both have similar DPS. Your method is the one that requires all the luck, my friend.

 

You seem genuinely upset that I called your play into question, although you've had no qualms doing so to me all thread and continue to do so. What you said didn't make any sort of sense in the context of a real fight, so I asked you to elaborate. I happen to know some good Marauders, and none of them will stand there and let you burst them to 25% before they do anything to stop you, that is a guarantee.

 

I've given you my character names, you know my server (Ajunta Pall), etc. If you think I am just talking out of my derriere, you are more than welcome to come check me out. I have no problems w/ that. : )

 

2) Running a spec that requires more effort and a lot of luck to accomplish the same thing, and still falling short.

 

I was so surprised and excited at how the spec was performing, even against classes that had given me trouble in the past, that I decided to make a thread about my little spec experiment.

 

I'm not really sure where you got the impression that that is "falling short", lol.

 

I can not believe it is taking that many pages to argue the same thing.

 

I can't believe that after 6 pages, you still cannot fathom that there is any possible way to kill someone other than through ZOMGBURST.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

I own a Buick it doesn't get better gas mileage ;p

 

lol, my coworker's always raving about his gas mileage on his Buick. I just assumed it'd be better than a Porsche. <.<

[Agooz]

I don't find that I need PPA at all, and as such, would rather have the abilities I am using MOST hit harder. That's really the only difference between the Maverick that we're talking here. I don't put 3 points in PPA, and instead take the Surge talent. It's really not a huge difference. I don't see what makes you say that the Maverick is somehow a viable and recommended spec, but if you move 3 points it suddenly becomes trash.

 

 

I already explained it in details, but maybe you missed it so I will repeat. PPA is so far ahead of your spec that it is not even a comparison. Yes those 3 points (but technically 5) make or break the spec. My argument is if you want a hybrid, PPA is a must because it allows you for more burst, more heat venting, and maximize the Charged Gauntlets. Your argument is that you will do more damage on the abilities you use MOST. Well you are wrong, because the chances that your FB/FP will hit harder are about 25%. It is not like EVERY FB/RP will hit harder. Also with more heat issues, you will throw LESS FB/RP.

 

No, RS does not crit for 3k in the Maverick, or at least not in the gear I had way back when I started the Maverick spec. It critted for 3400-3900 depending on the opponent's expertise. You keep trying to make a point that I am opting for RS and doing away with FB. In the Maverick, you will pretty much throw just as many FBs, I guarantee it, mainly because I will use far less rapid shots. In fact, as I got better playing with the Maverick (which is playing it for more than an hour), I rarely ever used Rapid Shot.

 

Your spec is about Finesse and Control as opposed to the Maverick? LOL, can you explain that? because I thought that we already agreed that the ONLY difference is really PPA vs Prototype Weapon System. Also, there is NOTHING about a PT that's finesse and control. Even as an AP, it is still in your face dps. You're trying to make this class something that it isnt.

 

You shut down a healer with your DPS? ok, where is the advantage here over ANY other dps. You are making the healer focus heals on themselves instead of others. Well congratulations, that means he's also shutting you down because you will focus your dps on them rather than eliminate and move on to the next target. I dont know of ANY dps class, played decently, that cant keep pressure on a healer. A full AP with enhanced Quell + higher dps/burst will kill a healer. A full Pyro with higher dps/burst will kill a healer. Yet you feel that a spec that can only put "pressure" on a healer is superior.

 

PPA is the bread and butter of the Pyro tree, and you are comparing it to Prototype Weapon System. PPA+Charged gauntlets will make your RS amount to AT LEAST 25% of your total damage. Without it, your RS will contribute to 8-10% of your damage at best. Show us the math of how Prototype Weapon Systems can make up that difference + the difference in dps loss due to less heat venting, and I will agree with you that those 3 points wont make a difference. But wait, you're not done yet. Then show us that those 3 points going into AP for a 0/31/10 build are worse than IM + SuperHeated Rail. My logic says, and I am betting on it, that IMMOLATE alone will be better than IM+Superheated Rail. THAT'S how you can show us that this spec, whether in your hands or played by someone else, is viable. At least on the Maverick's thread, there was some math done, and even done there were people that didnt agree, but never once did I claim that it was superior to full Pyro or full AP. It is a fun spec, that IS viable, and gives you the most bang as far as an AP/Pyro hybrid is concerned.

[Agooz]

Do you know what 8k - 14% is? 7446. OH NO! I AM ONLY HITTING PEOPLE FOR 7.5k INSTEAD OF 8k! Seriously, not a big deal when you really think about what we're talking about here.

 

You keep making out of context arguments like this and you wont get anywhere. Yes just looking at this, one would think that maybe you are right, and that the difference between this spec and a full AP as far as PFT is concerned is just 500damage. But for the rest of us, who are looking the entire picture, are just smiling at that. Because of the heat management you will NEVER charge PFT as fast as a full AP. Now add IMMOLATE that can crit for over 4k, followed by a guaranteed FREE RP, and the difference becomes way more than just 500damage.

Also please refrain from saying that you have heat under control, because what you are really saying is that you are holding back. It is not like you find a secret rotation of heat venting. There is no other way to translate that. Because I could run a PT with a 0/0/0 spec and still have heat under control by just spamming Rapid Shots.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Agooz

[Varicite]

You keep making out of context arguments like this and you wont get anywhere. Yes just looking at this, one would think that maybe you are right, and that the difference between this spec and a full AP as far as PFT is concerned is just 500damage. But for the rest of us, who are looking the entire picture, are just smiling at that. Because of the heat management you will NEVER charge PFT as fast as a full AP. Now add IMMOLATE that can crit for over 4k, followed by a guaranteed FREE RP, and the difference becomes way more than just 500damage.

Also please refrain from saying that you have heat under control, because what you are really saying is that you are holding back. It is not like you find a secret rotation of heat venting. There is no other way to translate that. Because I could run a PT with a 0/0/0 spec and still have heat under control by just spamming Rapid Shots.

 

No, I'm not saying that I'm holding back. I'm saying that I have my heat usage under control. I'm saying that I can ramp up and kill my targets and then throttle back when necessary. I don't spam Rapid Shots.

 

What YOU are (incorrectly) saying is that I'm holding back. Please realize that there is a difference. One of us is describing something that is actually happening from in-game experience, whereas the other is just talking about what he THINKS would happen. : )

 

I've even invited you to come see if I overheat in a PvP combat situation, but you'd rather make baseless remarks on an internet forum. I've got nothing to hide.

 

Who cares about whether or not I stack my PFT as fast as full AP? This isn't a raid, there is nobody metering my DPS in a PvP engagement. I can stack my PFT while en route to nodes, etc, and it is not hard to do so in combat either.

 

BTW, you are going to proc a free RP after 5 FBs almost no matter what, you don't need Immo for this. The only thing Immo is good for is the fact that it's a hard-hitting Elemental attack for 8 heat, period. And while that is NICE-TO-HAVE, it is hardly necessary.

 

You are really reaching now, man.

 

I already told you, this spec isn't about bursting opponents down. I already told you I understand that you cannot grasp this concept.

 

Why do you keep talking about burst, burst, burst still? Do you not see the utter irony when you do this, and then talk about "out of context arguments"? The spec only needs enough burst to kill targets, and it has that.

 

And difference between full AP's Flamethrower and my Flamethrower IS about 500 damage, w/ a free RP following it. So I do still have burst when I want it, I just also have everything else at my disposal.

 

PS) Flaming me because you can't understand why I'm doing this does not make you a better player.

 

Really, what it boils down to is this:

 

I said I can keep my heat under control w/out PPA, so I opted out of it. You are so up in arms about this decision, that you are making yourself look like a complete jerk on the forums, because 1 person in the history of SWTOR had the sheer AUDACITY to say that PPA is not all that unless you're Pyro.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

No, I'm not saying that I'm holding back. I'm saying that I have my heat usage under control. I'm saying that I can ramp up and kill my targets and then throttle back when necessary. I don't spam Rapid Shots.

Throttle back? ok that's definitely a new concept to me. You make it seem like you are running with 50k health or something, and you can just dance around "throttling down" to vent your heat, then you start dpsing again. Or that you have a "vanish" skill that you can have people not target you while you are venting. What are you talking about?

Throttling down means 2 things. Either you are using Rapid shots, or you're doing 0 dps. Now which is it? because there is no OTHER way of venting.

 

What YOU are (incorrectly) saying is that I'm holding back. Please realize that there is a difference. One of us is describing something that is actually happening from in-game experience, whereas the other is just talking about what he THINKS would happen. : )

 

Talking about what I THINK is happening? I know what is happening. I play the same AC, remember. There is nothing that you are doing to maintain your heat, that I dont know about, and I mean nothing.

 

I've even invited you to come see if I overheat in a PvP combat situation, but you'd rather make baseless remarks on an internet forum. I've got nothing to hide.

 

Now that is ridiculous. Yea, I am going to come on your server, level up a 50, so I can meet you on the WZ and still come to the same conclusion I am at right now. lol

I didnt say you had anything to hide. But what I am saying is that you are being stubborn. Admittedly, and unfortunately, I am one as well.

 

Who cares about whether or not I stack my PFT as fast as full AP? This isn't a raid, there is nobody metering my DPS in a PvP engagement. I can stack my PFT while en route to nodes, etc, and it is not hard to do so in combat either.

This is amazing. It seems that the games I play on my server are WAY more engaging and chaotic than yours. You're describing scenarios that are CONSTANTLY giving every opportunity to vent heat, to throttle your dps up and down, to stroll to the node while charging your PFT, to have finesse and control.

 

The only thing Immo is good for is the fact that it's a hard-hitting Elemental attack for 8 heat, period. And while that is NICE-TO-HAVE, it is hardly necessary.

 

Seriously, I dont think ANYONE can convince you of anything with logic like this. Yea, immo is not necessary, HEGC is not necessary, Stabilized Armor isnt necessary, 15% run speed is not necessary, PPA is not necessary, heat venting mechanisms arent necessary, more burst isnt necessary, more dps isnt necessary, BUT for some reason Prototype Weapon System is definitely necessary and pivotal for this spec to be viable lol.

 

I already told you, this spec isn't about bursting opponents down. I already told you I understand that you cannot grasp this concept.

 

No, it is you that you cant grasp the concept of advantage/disadvantage. If you are going to sacrifice dps/burst, then make a case for what you gaining in return, and it BETTER be significant since burst in PvP is really essential.

 

PS) Flaming me because you can't understand why I'm doing this does not make you a better player.

Just because I am disagreeing with you on practically EVERY single point you are making, doesnt mean I am flaming you, nor does it mean that I am claiming to be a better player. Now you're the one who is reaching.

[TheOpf]

Now that is ridiculous. Yea, I am going to come on your server, level up a 50, so I can meet you on the WZ and still come to the same conclusion I am at right now. lol

I didnt say you had anything to hide. But what I am saying is that you are being stubborn. Admittedly, and unfortunately, I am one as well.

 

This is amazing. It seems that the games I play on my server are WAY more engaging and chaotic than yours. You're describing scenarios that are CONSTANTLY giving every opportunity to vent heat, to throttle your dps up and down, to stroll to the node while charging your PFT, to have finesse and control.

 

Welcome to Ajunta Pall ;p. You should lvl a 50 there you would get to meet me. Yes Ajunta Pall has really really bad players and really really good players. There are some wz's that we will stomp a team and I will end up with 70k damage. Than I will face a good team and it will end in a 1-0 huttball match where I will have 380k damage.

 

He is correct in that there are huge amounts of times where you can run from someone in Ajunta and they don't chase but let you go heal or vent and come back to fight. I don't do it, but I have seen it done a thousand times and do it regularly. I stun run away heal and then come back and fight again. Trust me there are some really wierd games in Ajunta Pall.

 

I remember one Voidstar where the attacking team set up a defensive perimeter on the first door and never capped it. I couldn't stop laughing as we were just farming kills waiting for them to realize they were the attackers. I also fought in a Civil war, where no one capped a turret for a good 5 minutes because the battles over every turret were ridiculously long fights.

 

That is Ajunta Pall. We have horrible players and we have great players.

[Varicite]

Throttle back? ok that's definitely a new concept to me. You make it seem like you are running with 50k health or something, and you can just dance around "throttling down" to vent your heat, then you start dpsing again. Or that you have a "vanish" skill that you can have people not target you while you are venting. What are you talking about?

Throttling down means 2 things. Either you are using Rapid shots, or you're doing 0 dps. Now which is it? because there is no OTHER way of venting.

 

What does my health have to do w/ anything? When you are kiting people, you don't need to spam your main abilities every single GCD. This is what I mean by throttling down: I ramp my heat up past 40, use free RP, 8 heat RS, Rapid, now I am back down to a managable heat level and can FB again. This only happens w/ Flamethrower use, due to 25 heat. I don't ramp my heat up that far unless I know that I can have a period to let heat dissipate shortly afterward. Like killing my target. : )

 

I haven't come across a single person, in any set of gear (and I have tested it against a couple players whom I knew I could not beat, simply to see how I managed my heat in a long fight), who has been able to cause me to overheat in a combat situation before either they are dead, or I am. So this is what I mean by what you are saying not matching real-world experience.

 

BTW, running 80% faster than your opponent might as well be a Vanish in a lot of cases, especially if LoS is nearby (which it almost always is in WZs). I'm doing that every 18 seconds. So yes, I can indeed just "dance away" almost whenever I choose.

 

Talking about what I THINK is happening? I know what is happening. I play the same AC, remember. There is nothing that you are doing to maintain your heat, that I dont know about, and I mean nothing.

 

Obviously something is going on, because what you are saying is not actually happening. I've asked you multiple times to come see for yourself, since you don't seem to believe me. Heck, get TheOpf to, he already has a toon on my server, and he knows the people I play w/.

 

Now that is ridiculous. Yea, I am going to come on your server, level up a 50, so I can meet you on the WZ and still come to the same conclusion I am at right now. lol

I didnt say you had anything to hide. But what I am saying is that you are being stubborn. Admittedly, and unfortunately, I am one as well.

 

You don't need to level to 50 to watch me throttle up and down against a test dummy, or watch me fighting some people to see how my heat management is in an actual combat situation. Making a level 1 and having me and a few friends come out to Korriban to show you what I mean is certainly a lot easier than arguing for 7 pages, and a lot more productive. : )

 

This is amazing. It seems that the games I play on my server are WAY more engaging and chaotic than yours. You're describing scenarios that are CONSTANTLY giving every opportunity to vent heat, to throttle your dps up and down, to stroll to the node while charging your PFT, to have finesse and control.

 

I guess so. Out of curiosity, what are YOU doing that's so very important that you can't hit Flame Sweep a few times running from one node to the other to defend it? Do you keep your heat at 100 so often that a few seconds here and there won't give you back any meaningful resources? I'm trying to understand how you don't have any opportunities in a 15 minute WZ to ever dissipate heat.

 

My guild uses me as a support DPS to my fiance's Marauder. As such, my job is mostly to shut down healers, kill high dps players, and secure nodes. With good dps focusing people down, I find plenty of opportunities to vent after killing focus targets. There is most certainly enough time to stack PFT to 5 if you are going to run from mid to east, east to west, etc.

 

I charge my PFT to 5 while in the starter area first, go into combat w/ it at 5 stacks, use it, and combat itself will stack it back up by the time I need it again.

 

You are under the impression that I use PFT on cd. I don't. I use it when I want to burst. It's almost always available. It's not a raid, and I don't win any prizes for having used my FT more than the next guy, lol. I use it when it counts.

 

Seriously, I dont think ANYONE can convince you of anything with logic like this. Yea, immo is not necessary, HEGC is not necessary, Stabilized Armor isnt necessary, 15% run speed is not necessary, PPA is not necessary, heat venting mechanisms arent necessary, more burst isnt necessary, more dps isnt necessary, BUT for some reason Prototype Weapon System is definitely necessary and pivotal for this spec to be viable lol.

 

I didn't say that Prototype Weapon System is definitely necessary OR pivotal. I said it was nice to have. It's nicer to have, imo, than PPA for what I'm currently doing. I explained why, and you don't agree. That's your prerogative.

 

To understand what I mean by these amenities being unnecessary, you need to understand how I'm using the spec, and realize that I'm stripping the spec down to the bare mechanical essentials.

 

Immolate : Very nice damage, nice heat cost, but in the end, is really just another damage ability on a long-ish cd. I'd use it if I could fit it in w/ the other utilities, but alas I cannot.

 

HEGC: The only reason to ever use this cylinder is for the passive heat venting and elemental/internal damage. I'm dealing w/ heat venting manually, so it really just becomes the elemental damage. This is nice-to-have, but not as nice as the bonus damage from CGC.

 

15% run speed : Completely outclassed by high-uptime 50% snare w/ no cd. Always has been. I'm sure your opponents appreciate you letting them run around at full speed, though. : )

 

PPA : This used to be a godly talent, but in this spec, it basically lets you fire an average damage Rail Shot once every 6 seconds. Rail Shots do not hit a whole lot harder than Flame Bursts, but Flame Bursts do a lot more for you in this spec. This is another nice-to-have, but ultimately unnecessary against most opponents.

 

More burst: Burst is great, I know this as well as everyone else. However, the question becomes HOW MUCH burst is necessary? When you're hitting people for 2-3k on average, and mechanics are in place to keep you from taking too much damage while you do this, how much damage to you really NEED to kill an opponent?

 

Here's an example: You have a hamster tied up and it needs to die (no, I don't know why). You can spend 5 bucks to kill it with a sledgehammer, or you can spend 20 bucks to kill it w/ a Howitzer.

 

How much are you going to spend to accomplish the same goal?

 

That's where I'm coming from. I have burst. I also have control. I don't feel that I need MORE burst, because what I have kills people fast enough. The things that I would have to GIVE UP for more burst aren't worth it imo, when I am already killing my targets fast enough.

 

Players don't generally have more than 20k hp. 5 Flame Bursts is 10k~ on the LOW end. A PFT is another 5-6k w/out cds. Mix in a Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, RB ticks, CGC ticks, and you have a dead target. More burst isn't going to make this guy MORE DEAD, y'know.

 

So why take IM and Superheated Rail? Simple. I CANNOT do any meaningful damage to an opponent at range w/out the use of IM.

 

Superheated Rail refreshes CGC on my target, reproc'ing the snare at a distance greater than 10m if necessary which is EXTREMELY useful during a kite, as there are some classes where I like to move past the 10m mark for a moment and still need to keep a snare active. Tankasins are one of these classes.

 

No, it is you that you cant grasp the concept of advantage/disadvantage. If you are going to sacrifice dps/burst, then make a case for what you gaining in return, and it BETTER be significant since burst in PvP is really essential.

 

Burst is only essential when you have less control. Control makes burst less important. I made my case by saying that this is a kiting-focused spec, so maximizing the damage potential of Flame Bursts (which already has 15 talents backing it to make it awesome) seemed a better idea than trying to get in one more less synergistic Rail Shot per rotation.

 

The damage itself from PPA is nice, but negligible if you are going to kill your opponent anyway.

 

Essentially, I just watch my heat a little bit more and crit 30% harder on my main attacks. Not such a bad trade.

 

If venting EIGHT heat every 6~ seconds is going to make or break your gameplay, then I would suggest you pick up PPA.

 

Just because I am disagreeing with you on practically EVERY single point you are making, doesnt mean I am flaming you, nor does it mean that I am claiming to be a better player. Now you're the one who is reaching.

 

You keep making comments like I'm failing, etc etc. No one said that but you, lol. I'm doing perfectly fine so far, and having a blast. If I wasn't, this thread wouldn't exist.

 

I'm not really sure why you're so hell-bent on telling me that it's impossible to do something that I am currently doing w/out much issue. <.<

 

I've just been having fun, and thought that I'd share like I said. To the best of my knowledge, nobody really plays their Powertech as a utility kiter right now, so I thought it might be interesting and the PT trees lend itself very well to a kiting/controller playstyle w/ multiple snares (though only 1 is necessary in practice), multiple long-duration stuns, mostly instant-cast abilities, long-range attacks, as well as access to a 6 second interrupt and the sexiest kiting ability in the game, Hydraulic Overrides.

 

The Powertech seems like a very natural fit for what I'm trying to do; I honestly never thought that anyone would get so upset w/ trying to make a different effective playstyle than "burst your opponent down or die trying".

 

I guess I really am the only who's bored of that, lol.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Varicite

[wadecounty]

Agooz, sorry for the OT question but I see you in this thread, and this has to do with your Maverick build.

 

2 parter, first, any reason you don't take the snare tied to Retractable Blade? I'm not sure exactly how Sweltering Heat refreshes, if its every time CGC refreshes I guess that would be a good enough reason.

 

Second part, I'm considering putting one point into PFT, but this is on a Vanguard. I want to take either 1 point out of PPA for it, or 1 point from the snare tied to RB (which I was strongly considering picking up).

 

My thought process on this for a Vanguard is as follows... firstly, the 70% snare for 5 stacks is bugged for us, so having 5 stacks isn't as much of a priority as it is for a PT, meaning it'll be used more as situational burst than something as part of a dedicated rotation. Second, the bug for Vanguards also causes the damage bonus from PFT to apply to Sticky Grenade (Explosive Dart) and Mortar Volley (Death from Above), and using these moves also does not burn your stacks of PFT, meaning ED with 5 stacks almost functions like a Thermal Detonator, although without the nice surge boost in the Pyro tree, and Death from Above is just insane with 5 stacks.

 

I think the overall utility and flexibility to boosting these moves is probably worth it, for a Vanguard at least. What would you say? This is all for PvP btw.

 

Also, the 2 builds I'd consider...

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-179c6ee92-c1ceif

 

Takes the snare tied to RB, drops 1 point from PPA. Better at locking down a single target (although again, I'm not sure how Sweltering Heat functions exactly, if resetting CGC also resets Sweltering Heat you probably don't need the RB snare).

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-79c6ee92-i1ceif

 

Drops the snare, so PPA is a bit more reliable but its a bit more difficult to keep a target snared (and again, not sure on Sweltering Heat mechanics).

 

Either way, 1 point in PFT is perfect for a Vanguard because of the way its bugged... instead of it being a 5 stacks only move to boost 1 attack that you need to work into your rotation, it is a situational bonus burst to 3 nice attacks (Flamethrower, Explosive Dart and Death from Above), and using ED or DoA does not burn any stacks you've built up.

[Agooz]

Agooz, sorry for the OT question but I see you in this thread, and this has to do with your Maverick build.

 

2 parter, first, any reason you don't take the snare tied to Retractable Blade? I'm not sure exactly how Sweltering Heat refreshes, if its every time CGC refreshes I guess that would be a good enough reason.

 

Second part, I'm considering putting one point into PFT, but this is on a Vanguard. I want to take either 1 point out of PPA for it, or 1 point from the snare tied to RB (which I was strongly considering picking up).

 

My thought process on this for a Vanguard is as follows... firstly, the 70% snare for 5 stacks is bugged for us, so having 5 stacks isn't as much of a priority as it is for a PT, meaning it'll be used more as situational burst than something as part of a dedicated rotation. Second, the bug for Vanguards also causes the damage bonus from PFT to apply to Sticky Grenade (Explosive Dart) and Mortar Volley (Death from Above), and using these moves also does not burn your stacks of PFT, meaning ED with 5 stacks almost functions like a Thermal Detonator, although without the nice surge boost in the Pyro tree, and Death from Above is just insane with 5 stacks.

 

I think the overall utility and flexibility to boosting these moves is probably worth it, for a Vanguard at least. What would you say? This is all for PvP btw.

 

Also, the 2 builds I'd consider...

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-179c6ee92-c1ceif

 

Takes the snare tied to RB, drops 1 point from PPA. Better at locking down a single target (although again, I'm not sure how Sweltering Heat functions exactly, if resetting CGC also resets Sweltering Heat you probably don't need the RB snare).

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/powertech#0-79c6ee92-i1ceif

 

Drops the snare, so PPA is a bit more reliable but its a bit more difficult to keep a target snared (and again, not sure on Sweltering Heat mechanics).

 

Either way, 1 point in PFT is perfect for a Vanguard because of the way its bugged... instead of it being a 5 stacks only move to boost 1 attack that you need to work into your rotation, it is a situational bonus burst to 3 nice attacks (Flamethrower, Explosive Dart and Death from Above), and using ED or DoA does not burn any stacks you've built up.

 

Definitely the second spec. You can also take that last point in PPA and make PFT 2/2. With regards to snares, yes CGC applies it every time it's refreshes. So the point in the RB snare is totally unnecessary. The reason I excluded PFT from the Maverick is based on parsing both rotations, the spec with PFT was doing less damage. Also, BH dont get that nice side effects Vanguards do. So I can see the benefit of it for your guys. The most important thing about these PPA hybrids is that you want to make sure that RB is constantly applied on your target, and RP is always off of cooldown. If you're not maximizing Charged Gauntlets, the build becomes gimped.

[Varicite]

Definitely the second spec. You can also take that last point in PPA and make PFT 2/2. With regards to snares, yes CGC applies it every time it's refreshes. So the point in the RB snare is totally unnecessary. The reason I excluded PFT from the Maverick is based on parsing both rotations, the spec with PFT was doing less damage. Also, BH dont get that nice side effects Vanguards do. So I can see the benefit of it for your guys. The most important thing about these PPA hybrids is that you want to make sure that RB is constantly applied on your target, and RP is always off of cooldown. If you're not maximizing Charged Gauntlets, the build becomes gimped.

 

Sweltering Heat procs every time you proc the cylinder, so it will proc every time you use your Ion Pulse AND every time you use your High-Impact Bolt if the DoT is present on your enemy.

 

BTW, Agooz is right about the RB snare, the Flame Burst snare is not only stronger, but is 10m and overwrites the RB one. Also, the RB snare only lasts for 6 seconds each time you use RB. It's inferior in almost every way to the one in the Pyro tree. : )

 

With that said, I think that most people would have a much easier time w/ keeping PPA maxed, as both Agooz and TheOpf are right about the heat venting being very nice, lol.

 

PS) I absolutely understand what you mean about parsing, and I'd fully expect the spec I linked to come out on the bottom, lol. Fortunately, it's not always about highest dps in PvP situations (even though, like you say, it frequently can make a difference).

 

ALSO, that Vanguard bug for the talent sounds downright ridiculously AWESOME. O.O

 

/jelly

Edited June 2, 2012 by Varicite

[wadecounty]

ALSO, that Vanguard bug for the talent sounds downright ridiculously AWESOME. O.O

 

/jelly

 

In some respects it is, but the snare effect with a 5 stack flamethrower/pulse cannon is almost required for the move to be viable in PvP, and Vanguards don't get that.

[Varicite]

In some respects it is, but the snare effect with a 5 stack flamethrower/pulse cannon is almost required for the move to be viable in PvP, and Vanguards don't get that.

 

That's true. On the very few times that I have fired it at 4 stacks, people tend to walk right out of it like pre-1.2, lol.

 

Still, if you can work your stuns (and Combat Tech gives you a 3 second stun on a 45 sec cd), having an Exp. Dart that hits almost as hard as Thermal Detonator could be very nice!