0/28/13, an AP hybrid spec experiment

[Varicite]

But we are not a ranged class. We are a melee that has some ranged abilities. Operatives are semi ranged. We are like Maruaders and Juggernaughts. We have some ranged abilites with our strengths being melee.

 

Well, I think we just have differing philosophies on how the class functions.

 

I see us a lot more like Operatives; melee focused w/ some ranged capabilities. Juggernauts only have 1 ability at range. Maras have 0 beyond 10m.

 

I feel that playing like a Mara/Jugg would gimp my potential unecessarily. I have the tools, why should I not use them to my advantage?

 

The way I see it, ranged damage is safer. I am going to have to close to melee eventually, but why not get some free damage in before I do?

[Varicite]

I'm not trying to be defensive, I know that I lose some elemental damage. I gain some utility. That's a tradeoff that I made, and I tried to explain WHY I personally felt the tradeoff was worth it. I guess that's what is coming across as defensive. I was going more for "explanatory". :c

 

What am I supposed to say? If I have a reason for doing something, and it doesn't feel like you understand that reasoning, should I just shut my mouth and say "No, you're right" even though I really don't believe that?

 

It just feels like most of what we're all saying here is just being hashed and miscommunicated. We are all intelligent players here, and I don't doubt that we all know the mechanics of Powertechs.

 

From my point of view, it just seems like you are refusing to see things in any other way than what you are currently used to. Saying things like "you don't gain anything at range over AP" or "you can't use PFT to slow a group because you need 5 stacks" just sounds like you aren't really seeing what the spec can actually do in the right hands.

 

I duel all the time. It's the only way to really hone your skills against specific classes. I just meant so that you could see that I'm not just blowing hot air about things. : )

 

Anyway, headed home. Toss me a whisper on Ceraphene or Ilil-ill if you do make it out to Ajunta Pall.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

Yes, because you are somehow magically firing your Rail Shot at range in HEGC, w/out putting a DoT on your opponent.

 

As a pyro, there are countless times where I used RS at range without IM. Unload can trigger RS (indirectly through CGC), pretty much any other player on your team will trigger your RS for you. But the question is, how often are you going toe to toe with someone at range? I know from my experience, hardly ever. With Stun, grapple, HO, RB why would a PT fight at range. Plus even in the situation where you are at range, 1 IM + 1 RS will hardly take down someone.

 

Um, yeah, I know why the snare is there. You have honestly NEVER once thought of using your 5-stacked FT against that group of people chasing down your ball carrier?

 

It doesn't have to be used only for that....

 

Again, as an AP, if I am running behind a train on my ball carrier, I am not thinking "oh let me snare them with PFT to give my ball carrier a chance". I am thinking "Oh! 3-4 people in front of me! BBQ time!". It certainly NOT the snare that is benefiting your already snared/rooted/CCd/DoTd ball carrier, but the chance that your PFT is going to take out 1 or 2 of them. Yes of course the snare of a 5x stacked PFT may at some point produce the effect you are referring to in a rare scenario, but in no way will it be often enough to base a spec on it.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Agooz

[Varicite]

Even as a pyro, there are countless times where I used RS at range without IM. Unload can trigger RS, pretty much any other player on your team will trigger your RS for you. But the question is, how often are you going toe to toe with someone at range? I know from my experience, hardly ever. With Stun, grapple, HO, RB why would a PT fight at range. Plus even in the situation where you are at range, 1 IM + 1 RS will hardly take down someone.

 

Where did you get the impression that I was firing 1 IM + 1 RS at range? I don't think I've ever said that, but I feel the added damage of the Rail Shot to the normal combo is helpful.

 

Again, you are right that I am NOT going toe to toe w/ people at range. I am picking off weakened targets while deciding on whom to focus next. The full combo is a decent 5-7k depending on crits, but you're correct that it's situational. Still, it's a situation that arises fairly often.

 

IM is really more of a nice-to-have, and I had 1 point left to spend. I was really going up to Superheated Rail so that I could lower the heat cost on Rail Shot, and boost its damage w/ the CGC proc. I needed a low-heat attack, as everything else is 16 heat, and as you already know, the spec is a heat-hog. I think it worked out nicely in practice.

 

Again, as an AP, if I am running behind a train on my ball carrier, I am not thinking "oh let me snare them with PFT to give my ball carrier a chance". I am thinking "Oh! 3-4 people in front of me! BBQ time!". It certainly NOT the snare that is benefiting your already snared/rooted/CCd/DoTd ball carrier, but the chance that your PFT is going to take out 1 or 2 of them. Yes of course the snare of a 5x stacked PFT may at some point produce the effect you are referring to in a rare scenario, but in no way will it be often enough to base a spec on it.

 

Well, the BBQ part goes w/out saying, I thought, lol. I guess our opinions just differ on what is more important in Huttball. Slowing the group allows my carrier to score, while the damage portion is just a bonus. In most other situations, it is obviously the other way around. But still, slowing multiple people racing to stop a node cap in Novare can be pretty helpful too. : )

 

In Huttball, there is usually a large crowd of people at mid, and if not, there is usually a large crowd of people after my ball carrier (he's pretty well-known on my server for being a great ball carrier). This situation happens multiple times every single Huttball, but I don't base my entire spec just around that.

 

I like the way that the spec plays, it flows very well in a ballet of fire and bullets. It feels like a true hunter, as there is never a time when I feel "helpless", unlike AP when there's no DoTs on my ranged target. Unlike Pyro when I wish I had a way to escape for LoS. I don't have the defenses of either, it's true, but I usually know when to high-tail it out of there, and have good teammates covering my behind.

 

I stick to my targets like glue, and there's no getting me off outside of burning stuns. It's so much control over my target, and the fight itself, that I find that I usually come out ahead. If I need them near me, they are near me. If I don't want them near me, I can get away from them w/ ease. If I want to burn them, 5 stacked PFT roasts things to a crisp, even at a lower damage than full AP. Flamethrower is still the heaviest single attack that a Powertech has, and buffed by 50% w/ cds running, it's nothing to sneeze at.

 

I realize fully that it's not as much burst damage as Pyro, and I don't think that I said that it outdamaged AP at any point. I thought that I said it was comparable, but provided far more control overall. That was really the whole reason that I made it; it allows for a lot of finesse lacking from the Powertech class in general. In PvP, as long as your targets die quickly, then the way you accomplish this seems pretty flexible.

 

I will not argue that I should have the 6% fire talent in ST. I want it, believe me! I'm just not sure what to give up for it.

 

I'm leaning toward IM, but that still only affords me 1 point. The only other point I have to move is the 1 in Hamstring, but I need to place that somewhere in the AP tree to move further up the tree.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

In Huttball, there is usually a large crowd of people at mid, and if not, there is usually a large crowd of people after my ball carrier (he's pretty well-known on my server for being a great ball carrier). This situation happens multiple times every single Huttball, but I don't base my entire spec just around that.

 

I like the way that the spec plays, it flows very well in a ballet of fire and bullets. It feels like a true hunter, as there is never a time when I feel "helpless", unlike AP when there's no DoTs on my ranged target. Unlike Pyro when I wish I had a way to escape for LoS. I don't have the defenses of either, it's true, but I usually know when to high-tail it out of there, and have good teammates covering my behind.

 

I stick to my targets like glue, and there's no getting me off outside of burning stuns. It's so much control over my target, and the fight itself, that I find that I usually come out ahead. If I need them near me, they are near me. If I don't want them near me, I can get away from them w/ ease. If I want to burn them, 5 stacked PFT roasts things to a crisp, even at a lower damage than full AP. Flamethrower is still the heaviest single attack that a Powertech has, and buffed by 50% w/ cds running, it's nothing to sneeze at.

 

I realize fully that it's not as much burst damage as Pyro, and I don't think that I said that it outdamaged AP at any point. I thought that I said it was comparable, but provided far more control overall. That was really the whole reason that I made it; it allows for a lot of finesse lacking from the Powertech class in general. In PvP, as long as your targets die quickly, then the way you accomplish this seems pretty flexible.

 

I will not argue that I should have the 6% fire talent in ST. I want it, believe me! I'm just not sure what to give up for it.

 

I'm leaning toward IM, but that still only affords me 1 point. The only other point I have to move is the 1 in Hamstring, but I need to place that somewhere in the AP tree to move further up the tree.[/color]

 

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, and that is why I proposed the Maverick. I enjoyed it very much when I ran it. That is why I am telling to take a closer look and do some testing with it. You will see that it does better burst and sustained damage than this spec. Try it on a dummy, and you will see that PPA outweighs the surge on Prototype Weapon System. Tweak it for PFT as well since you enjoy it that much.

[Varicite]

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, and that is why I proposed the Maverick. I enjoyed it very much when I ran it. That is why I am telling to take a closer look and do some testing with it. You will see that it does better burst and sustained damage than this spec. Try it on a dummy, and you will see that PPA outweighs the surge on Prototype Weapon System. Tweak it for PFT as well since you enjoy it that much.

 

I suppose another iteration of it is worth a shot. I haven't really played that since pre-1.2 after all, though I have played a lot as Pyro and have gotten used to the change.

 

The spec is pretty Flame Burst dependent, and I was afraid of proc'ing PPA early. I'm afraid it will play too much like Pyro w/out any of the real strengths of Pyro (which was my feeling before).

[Agooz]

I suppose another iteration of it is worth a shot. I haven't really played that since pre-1.2 after all, though I have played a lot as Pyro and have gotten used to the change.

 

The spec is pretty Flame Burst dependent, and I was afraid of proc'ing PPA early. I'm afraid it will play too much like Pyro w/out any of the real strengths of Pyro (which was my feeling before).

 

Well it definitely wont have the big spikes of Pyro. What it brings is consistent pressure through a lot of crit RS, FB/CGC snares, and practically all the utilities of AP (which I think is what you are mainly looking for in the hybrid).

[TheOpf]

I suppose another iteration of it is worth a shot. I haven't really played that since pre-1.2 after all, though I have played a lot as Pyro and have gotten used to the change.

 

The spec is pretty Flame Burst dependent, and I was afraid of proc'ing PPA early. I'm afraid it will play too much like Pyro w/out any of the real strengths of Pyro (which was my feeling before).

 

You will get early procs. If you are lucky you will get a free RS proc about halfway through the RS CD.

[Varicite]

Well, after an exorbitant amount of credits for respecs, I did try out the Maverick again. I actually tested 0/28/13, the Maverick that Agooz linked, and 5/5/31 standard Pyro in WZs and duels.

 

I tried playing around w/ holding my procs so that I could burst every 15 seconds like a Pyro, but I found that the "downtime" between burst phases was a lot less damage than the 0/28/13 variant in practice. I then said screw it and just went ahead and used the procs every 6~ seconds, which was a little better.

 

I think the main problem is the style of fighting that I do, as I rely pretty heavily on kiting (and therefore Flame Bursts to keep the enemy at length), so losing out on the 30% surge on both my main attack and my heavy-hitting RP (w/ the 15% crit bonus from Combat Tech 4pc now) is quite noticeable between Rail Shots.

 

I tested the Maverick in WZs first, as there were still a good number of Republic premades running yesterday w/ some decent gear. It was a good show of exactly how well each spec would perform against higher-end gear, since there were a good number of War Heroes hanging around. I definitely felt a lot weaker during kiting phases, as health was not disappearing as fast as I was used to, causing me to rely a bit more heavily on Rail Shots to make up the difference than I'd have liked.

 

Part of the problem seemed to be actually keeping the auto-crit RS buff proc'd for each RS, which led me to heat problems pretty early on. I adjusted to this after a few games by simply firing off the RS w/out the proc when PPA came up, which is pretty close to the old style of playing this spec. Unfortunately, unlike the old style of playing the spec, you could always count on peppering your opponent w/ Rail Shots before, whereas now the ICD seems to limit the damage potential of PPA too much in a non-Pyro spec, imo.

 

I didn't want to just give up on it after first impressions in WZs, though, so I decided to try to see how the spec performed in 1v1 against my fiance's Marauder. Thanks to Mara cds like Obfuscate and Saber Ward, the 0/28/13 definitely performed better w/ its slightly higher damage on Flame Bursts and less reliance on white damage (surprise, surprise).

 

On a whim, I decided to try out 5/5/31 Pyro against the Mara, to get an idea of how I was performing in the specs side-by-side. Well, w/ all cds up, my time 'till death was about the same as both the Maverick and 0/28/13, but my win rate suffered considerably w/out the ability to hard kite the Marauder. It was basically an old-fashioned dps race, which favors Maras due to the nature of their defensive cds vs ours, so I wasn't too surprised to lose here. What DID surprise me was how much faster 5/5/31 would lose to the Mara w/out cds available, though.

 

HO has an extremely low cd for what it does, and is incredibly useful for taking on classes that typically counter a Pyro PT (such as Marauder, Tankasin, Sniper).

 

In the end, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of how the other 2 specs perform (I'd already had a pretty good idea of Pyro, obviously), but I still prefer my variant. It's probably simply due to playstyle. Some people like to just stay in peoples' faces and burst as hard as possible. That's not me.

 

Fighting a Mara or Tankasin, for example, it's a perfectly viable (and effective) method to get your dots up, pop HO and get your snares up and then move to a greater than 10m distance, pew pewing them at range where they cannot retaliate for a good deal of time. The only counter to this for those classes is to either vanish out so they can't be targeted, or burn a gap closer that won't really work while HO is active.

 

I suppose you can go either way w/ the Maverick, but I think I just prefer my version for now, as it seems to hit harder for what I'm currently using it for. I'll tweak it a bit more, probably, but I'm pretty comfortable w/ it now, and I like the way that it performs, even against War Heroes.

 

(as an aside, yes it does get crushed quickly when focused, but not really any faster than Pyro w/out Energy Shield up. Full AP seemed a bit sturdier thanks to the 20% damage reduction during stuns, which is usually the only time I actually get caught and killed, lol)

 

I was averaging about 350k~ w/ 0/28/13, 300k~ w/ Maverick, and around 400k~ as Pyro. I actually had the most deaths as Pyro, but I'm going to attribute that to the loss of HO when trying to escape, and not simply mudering my opponents like Pyro is supposed to. SO operator error on that one, lol. Kill ratios were actually about even among all 3, which surprised me, but I think that was because more healers were getting in on the action by the time I took Pyro for a spin. The only real difference, I think, is that I felt more comfortable w/ the one I'd tailor-made for myself, which isn't all that surprising.

 

Well, thanks for the discussion, I think I'm pretty confident w/ continuing to run this spec (though probably a lot less, since my guild wants me to gear up my Tankasin, lol), and while I'm sure a lot of people won't agree w/ my methodology, I still feel that the reasoning behind my decision is pretty sound.

 

I guess I can try to get this thread deleted so it stops cluttering up the board. : )

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[BlazingShadow]

Grosss. Edited May 31, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[Varicite]

have fun overheating with no burst damage, bro.

 

I don't overheat, and I kill things fine. Bro.

 

/shrug

 

Honestly, I was just trying to be helpful by sharing something that I found worked for me. You can do whatever you like, obviously, just as I will.

 

I've tried to explain my reasoning as clearly as possible, and I understand that people disagree w/ that reasoning, because everyone seems to feel that the Powertech must be a 100% burst class only. I don't feel that way, even though I have also used my PT in that fashion for most of the time.

 

Now I'm using it for sustained damage and control, and it works perfectly well for that role so far.

 

Oh well, I won't bother trying to share my thoughts on this board anymore. Have fun.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[TheOpf]

Well, after an exorbitant amount of credits for respecs, I did try out the Maverick again. I actually tested 0/28/13, the Maverick that Agooz linked, and 5/5/31 standard Pyro in WZs and duels.

 

I tried playing around w/ holding my procs so that I could burst every 15 seconds like a Pyro, but I found that the "downtime" between burst phases was a lot less damage than the 0/28/13 variant in practice. I then said screw it and just went ahead and used the procs every 6~ seconds, which was a little better.

 

I think the main problem is the style of fighting that I do, as I rely pretty heavily on kiting (and therefore Flame Bursts to keep the enemy at length), so losing out on the 30% surge on both my main attack and my heavy-hitting RP (w/ the 15% crit bonus from Combat Tech 4pc now) is quite noticeable between Rail Shots.

 

I tested the Maverick in WZs first, as there were still a good number of Republic premades running yesterday w/ some decent gear. It was a good show of exactly how well each spec would perform against higher-end gear, since there were a good number of War Heroes hanging around. I definitely felt a lot weaker during kiting phases, as health was not disappearing as fast as I was used to, causing me to rely a bit more heavily on Rail Shots to make up the difference than I'd have liked.

 

Part of the problem seemed to be actually keeping the auto-crit RS buff proc'd for each RS, which led me to heat problems pretty early on. I adjusted to this after a few games by simply firing off the RS w/out the proc when PPA came up, which is pretty close to the old style of playing this spec. Unfortunately, unlike the old style of playing the spec, you could always count on peppering your opponent w/ Rail Shots before, whereas now the ICD seems to limit the damage potential of PPA too much in a non-Pyro spec, imo.

 

I didn't want to just give up on it after first impressions in WZs, though, so I decided to try to see how the spec performed in 1v1 against my fiance's Marauder. Thanks to Mara cds like Obfuscate and Saber Ward, the 0/28/13 definitely performed better w/ its slightly higher damage on Flame Bursts and less reliance on white damage (surprise, surprise).

 

On a whim, I decided to try out 5/5/31 Pyro against the Mara, to get an idea of how I was performing in the specs side-by-side. Well, w/ all cds up, my time 'till death was about the same as both the Maverick and 0/28/13, but my win rate suffered considerably w/out the ability to hard kite the Marauder. It was basically an old-fashioned dps race, which favors Maras due to the nature of their defensive cds vs ours, so I wasn't too surprised to lose here. What DID surprise me was how much faster 5/5/31 would lose to the Mara w/out cds available, though.

 

HO has an extremely low cd for what it does, and is incredibly useful for taking on classes that typically counter a Pyro PT (such as Marauder, Tankasin, Sniper).

 

In the end, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of how the other 2 specs perform (I'd already had a pretty good idea of Pyro, obviously), but I still prefer my variant. It's probably simply due to playstyle. Some people like to just stay in peoples' faces and burst as hard as possible. That's not me.

 

Fighting a Mara or Tankasin, for example, it's a perfectly viable (and effective) method to get your dots up, pop HO and get your snares up and then move to a greater than 10m distance, pew pewing them at range where they cannot retaliate for a good deal of time. The only counter to this for those classes is to either vanish out so they can't be targeted, or burn a gap closer that won't really work while HO is active.

 

I suppose you can go either way w/ the Maverick, but I think I just prefer my version for now, as it seems to hit harder for what I'm currently using it for. I'll tweak it a bit more, probably, but I'm pretty comfortable w/ it now, and I like the way that it performs, even against War Heroes.

 

(as an aside, yes it does get crushed quickly when focused, but not really any faster than Pyro w/out Energy Shield up. Full AP seemed a bit sturdier thanks to the 20% damage reduction during stuns, which is usually the only time I actually get caught and killed, lol)

 

I was averaging about 350k~ w/ 0/28/13, 300k~ w/ Maverick, and around 400k~ as Pyro. I actually had the most deaths as Pyro, but I'm going to attribute that to the loss of HO when trying to escape, and not simply mudering my opponents like Pyro is supposed to. SO operator error on that one, lol. Kill ratios were actually about even among all 3, which surprised me, but I think that was because more healers were getting in on the action by the time I took Pyro for a spin. The only real difference, I think, is that I felt more comfortable w/ the one I'd tailor-made for myself, which isn't all that surprising.

 

Well, thanks for the discussion, I think I'm pretty confident w/ continuing to run this spec (though probably a lot less, since my guild wants me to gear up my Tankasin, lol), and while I'm sure a lot of people won't agree w/ my methodology, I still feel that the reasoning behind my decision is pretty sound.

 

I guess I can try to get this thread deleted so it stops cluttering up the board. : )

 

I wouldn't try to get it deleted there was still a discussion regardless of whether we disagree with you or not. I am puzzled by your experiences as they don't quite make sense in my brain. No matter how i look at or read your comments it seems you have problems with anything that's not your spec and that doesn't seem to make sense.

You do realize the Maverick is specced into HO. So why can't the Maverick kite as well as your spec. The only thing it's missing from your build is PFT and the surge to FB. So essentially all the talents are the same except those? So how does it kite worse? Your RS hits harder you get teh same Control and utilities.

 

Regardless, I know the llil and ill characters. I have seen you guys running around.

 

As for your comment about me not being open, that's not true at all. I constantly look at and work on several different versions of specs. I have posted at least 5 different AP variations and I don't even like 2 of them. If i see an advantage, and/or others see the advantage than we spec into it.

[Agooz]

I am really not sure what you are doing wrong, but these findings you experienced in your tests are completely off from where I am coming from.

Just the fact that you concluded a 31 Pyro win ratio is way below your spec and/or Maverick is the perfect example that you are missing on some major mechanics of the AC. I myself, currently running as a pyro, around 1200 expertise, no 15% crit bonus to either RS or RP, and I SMOKE Marauders 9 out of 10 times. I dont see how in the world you can take down a well played/geared marauder spamming Flame Burst with a spec that has 0 heat management mechanism. In other words, you will NEVER be able to spam Flame Burst in any fight and not run into heat issues before you are dead.

Also to say that you ran into heat issues using the Maverick, which has better heat management than a 31 Pyro, clearly shows again that you were doing something wrong.

I am not going to keep arguing with you over this, since it was never my intention from the beginning. It is quite clear that you are dead set on what you are doing, and no amount of testing or advice will change that.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Agooz

[TheOpf]

I am really now sure what you are doing wrong, but these findings you experienced in your tests are completely off from where I am coming from.

Just the fact that you concluded a 31 Pyro win ratio is way below your spec and/or Maverick is the perfect example that you are missing on some major mechanics of the AC. I myself, currently running as a pyro, around 1200 expertise, no 15% crit bonus to either RS or RP, and I SMOKE Marauders 9 out of 10 times. I dont see how in the world you can take down a well played/geared marauder spamming Flame Burst with a spec that has 0 heat management mechanism. In other words, you will NEVER be able to spam Flame Burst in any fight and not run into heat issues before you are dead.

Also to stay that you ran into heat issues using the Maverick, which has better heat management than a 31 Pyro, clearly shows again that you were doing something wrong.

I am not going to keep arguing with you over this, since it was never my intention from the beginning. It is quite clear that you are dead set on what you are doing, and no amount of testing or advice will change that.

 

This is where I get lost too Agooz. Every test performed by everyone else comes out with the same thing as you and I, and yet he is stating otherwise. I will run into him on my server, and come back but from my testing an specs Maverick has everything he has except PFT and the surge jumps so not sure how he could have kiting issues.

 

Anyways, I think we all are at the point where none of us wish to continue a discussion with someone who doesn't want a discussion but rather a congratulations for being awesome. Unfortunately, no one did and now he is set in stone.

[Varicite]

I don't want a congratulations, I wanted some help w/ my spec, and perhaps a little discussion on the merits of sustained+control vs burst in PvP situations. I did not want an entirely different spec.

 

Even so, I spent hundreds of thousands of credits last night respec'ing to try out your suggestions; if you have seen me at all, you would know that I don't care one whit about being "awesome". I just want to be good at what I do, period. I'm not rich (I only PvP, really), so I feel like tanking a huge portion of my finances in good faith in order to try these things out again (even though I have tried them in the past, and said so in my OP) shows that I'm not too closed-minded.

 

I'll try my best to clear up some confusion, I did kinda rush that post out.

 

I think that Pyro underperformed for 2 reasons: Way more healers on enemy teams, and operator error from trying to play the spec too timidly. 5/5/31 is a very aggressive spec, and excels when you play it that way. I was still too stuck in my "keep away" mode from having HO, I think.

 

As for spamming flame bursts, here's what happens in practice. I'll assume this is from melee range, as I already tried to explain what I do at range. Keep in mind that it's very, very rare that I do not already have a 5-stack of PFT ready at the start of a fight, lol.

 

FB > RB > TSO (if available) + Flamethrower (heat dissipates during channel) > enemy moves usually so I pop a Rapid Shots > FBx3 (I'm back up to 40~ heat again now) > Free RP (heat dissipates) > RB (if auto-crit RS hasn't proc'd) or RS if it's proc'd (still hovering at around the 40~ heat mark) > Rapid > FB > (usually dead by this point, but I will pop my 2nd FT here if not) > Vent heat or out of combat regen.

 

Of course, depending on the class, sometimes I will have to ramp it up faster, or I will have a lot more venting due to biding my time outside of their effective range.

 

It's not easy to manage, by any means, but it is definitely possible w/out spamming Rapid shots all the time. You really need to save your free / low-heat abilities for when you're nearing the 40 mark, and use those as your pseudo-heat vent.

 

Flamethrower is used w/ TSO or Vent Heat as much as possible. : )

[BlazingShadow]

okay heres the discussion between sustained vs burst

 

you are fighting a mirror class who has burst damage while you use sustained damage (full pyro). he kills you first, game over.

 

you are fighting a person who is bad at his class, so you're whittling him down when a medic comes along... you stun the medic but your sustained damage just doesnt cut the mustard before the healer ruins your day.

 

you are fighting a marauder. lol.

[Varicite]

Adding: I wasn't trying to say that the Maverick kites worse than the spec that I came up w/, I was only trying to say that I personally felt more comfortable kiting via the heavier Flame Bursts, rather than more frequent Rail Shots. Honestly, I find the difference between the two to be pretty negligible, so I went w/ the style I liked a bit more. Lemme reiterate that: the Maverick that Agooz linked does NOT kite worse than 0/28/13, I just like the FBs hitting harder, as they are more frequent than Rail Shots in this spec.

 

Also, Ili's pretty decent on her Mara (way better than her Sin, honestly), and has dueled my BM Powertech in every spec variation outside of ST. She understands pretty much everything that the PT class can throw at her, and is very good at countering w/ her own defenses, as she's been dueling me since January, lol. Good luck bursting her down on a PT outside of incredibly outgearing her. <.<

 

I'm honestly surprised that you've had so much success against good Marauders on your PT as Pyro, because w/ cds available, a Pyro PT is extremely easy to counter for a Mara if they know what to look out for. I can admit that I'm not the best PT, but I'm definitely no slouch when it comes to a fight.

 

okay heres the discussion between sustained vs burst

 

you are fighting a mirror class who has burst damage while you use sustained damage (full pyro). he kills you first, game over.

 

you are fighting a person who is bad at his class, so you're whittling him down when a medic comes along... you stun the medic but your sustained damage just doesnt cut the mustard before the healer ruins your day.

 

you are fighting a marauder. lol.

 

Mirror class is a loss, unless they are bad. In this case, only because my mirror also has 10m range, is hard to kite, bursts extremely hard, and has enough stuns to mitigate my own damage. OMG NERF, jk. Seriously though, there are a ton of specs that lose to their mirrors, yet are still viable in PvP. Look at Marksmanship vs Lethality snipers.

 

2nd situation, I've seen a few times. Depends, honestly. If I have 1 guy low, I am more than likely going to kill him before the healer can get him back up. If he's at half health and the healer comes, then it's going to be a loss. If he's at 1/3 or 1/4 health, he will most likely die, and then I will most likely also kill the healer, because I excel at killing most healers through control.

 

3rd, I'm fighting a Mara. I jump for joy, because this is the spec I'm best at killing Marauders on? You don't HAVE to burst a Marauder to kill them, you know. They are actually pretty easy to control also, once you are no longer at the mercy of their snares or leaps.

 

PS) I like how you assume I can only kill bads and people in terrible gear. lol.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

I'm honestly surprised that you've had so much success against good Marauders on your PT as Pyro, because w/ cds available, a Pyro PT is extremely easy to counter for a Mara if they know what to look out for. I can admit that I'm not the best PT, but I'm definitely no slouch when it comes to a fight.[/color]

 

Two things happen when I go against a marauder, equally skilled/geared, and I dont care about dueling since to me that isnt considered a representation of actual game PvP. I am also not on a wPvP server, so these 1v1 scenarios out in tatooine or whatnot are also out for me. My experience is strictly WZs.

1) I get a nice opening burst ( Pop relic/adrenal/EF IM>RS>TSO>TD>FB>RS..etc...) and they had already wasted their CDs before engaging. They are DEAD and probably thinking I am hacking OR now considering rolling a PT after they got their FOTM to 50. lol

2) The second scenario is just a straight out brawl, where we see and target each other at full health and CDs available. I still take him to about 50% with the opener while at worst I'm at 75%. Now the tide changes, and I am going down faster than he is. I get to 40% and he's at 25% and pops his defensive CDs, which I saved my carbon and stun for, making him watch his defensive CDs counting down and unable to do much during most of the duration. By that time TD is up again and ready to unload another burst on him.

How is it easy for a maurader to counter a PT if they know what to look for? look for what? all our abilities are instant cast, at least 60% of our damage output is elemental. We do just as much damage as they do in PvE, so in theory we have the same sustained/burst dps potential. In fact, I usually have a tougher time with equally skilled/gear Tanksins than marauders.

 

I spent close to 40played hours on this character. At least 50% of my PvP time is Solo queue. I PvPed in Tank/AP/Parakeet/IF/Maverick/Pyro variations, never for less than 3-4 days with one spec. You cant convince me that you can get an accurate feel of 3-4 different specs all in one night of PvP. Hec, you cant get a grasp of even 1 spec if you just try it for a night. I am sorry you wasted hundreds of thousands for no reason like that.

A PT is a beast after you spend alot of time gearing and tweaking and knowing how to maximize your advantages and minimize your disadvantages. That is why I run with 2pc Combat Med set + 2pc PvE Super Commando. That with Energy Rebounder gives me an 18sec Energy Shield that's available to me almost 50% of the time in a WZ, and I pretty much have it available all the time when I go against a maurader or a Tanksin. No way in hell is a marauder taking me down through my 25% damage mitigation, Kolto, medpack, WZ adrenal, carbon, stun, and snares. I have all 4 class buffs on me 100% of the time. All these thing together make a huge difference. Obviously I am having a completely different experience in PvP, regardless of the spec, than the one you are getting.

[Varicite]

I won't try to convince you that I can get an accurate feel for these specs in one night. That would be silly.

 

You keep disregarding the fact that I've also been a BM PT since January (check post history, if you like), and have already played extensively as the Run 'n Gun (what you refer to as the Maverick) spec prior to 1.2.

 

After moving on to Pyro, I used a 2/12/27 spec for a long time, and was pretty darn good at it. You may not think of dueling as "real PvP scenarios", but I find them to be excellent practice for encountering classes in WZs and dealing w/ them accordingly. Anyway, I don't base my judgments on dueling alone, nor do I base them on WZs alone, or solely on parsed data. I take all 3 of these things into account when making a decision.

 

I didn't discount them after "one night", I played both of those specs for months. I already knew what to expect going into the testing, because I'd played them both. I said all of this in the OP. I don't need days to grasp specs that I've already played exclusively for months. : P

 

Anyway, in the case of your first scenario, a Marauder w/out cds is going to die either way. I don't even consider this situation worth mentioning, because killing people who aren't prepared for a fight is easy.

 

Now, in the case of the second scenario, a fight typically goes like this:

 

Mara leaps in, I pop RB and FB to get DoTs up. I immediately drop a Stealth Scan on the area we're fighting and pop HO to start a circle kite while keeping them snared at 10m. If I took too long getting out of there, I will have been Obfuscated and can't fire my Rail Shot for the next 6 seconds. I try to make sure this does not happen, lol.

 

If I did eat the Obfuscate, I continue my FB kite while staying out of their melee range. I do this carefully, mixing Rapid Shots in so that I don't overheat. At this point, I am damaging them and they are NOT damaging me, so I am ahead in the fight. I can generally keep this up until they are at 2/3 hp (12 seconds of HO kiting). When Obfuscate wears, I'll fire Exp. Dart > crit Rail Shot, and rush in for the free RP. I may have to vent at this point, depending on how well they dealt w/ the kiting. (Marauders can leap on you while HO is active, but the root won't take effect and you can simply keep moving while snaring them again).

 

If they did let me do this, there's a Flamethrower waiting for them as soon as HO ends and they get back in my face. They can either eat the full duration, or pop their Fear (Ili likes to do this) which I break w/ CC breaker and immediately refresh my RB/FB DoTs. They're usually less than half health now, but the damage starts to roll in VERY fast on me and the DPS race starts here. Mind you, I'm still ahead of the game.

 

About now, they will usually pop Bloodthirst and go for the kill, at which point I hobble away from them and try to keep them snared. This is when I pop my Energy Shield / Kolto Overload, if available, because I'll need them! If I need breathing room, I'll use my 3 second AoE stun and gain distance. They'll either eat this full stun, or break it. They usually break it, but it gives me a few meters of kiting room still and I keep them at bay until their leap comes off of cd.

 

If they haven't died to flames and dots by now, HO will be coming off of cd, which I then use again in conjunction w/ Relic/cds and toss another Flamethrower at them. Undying Rage or Vanish comes out here, because this will kill them usually, and I pop Electro Dart and walk away from them. I calmly start my Unload channel and wait until the numbers go back to normal and finish them off w/ a crit Rail Shot. (if they vanished, I use my stealth scan, grapple, flamethrower)

 

It's a long fight, and this won't always work in a WZ environment due to other variables (like enemy combatants, objectives, etc), but in most cases I will come out ahead of the fight unless SEVERELY outgeared. I don't burst them down, I wear them down while they can't touch me, and then finish them off.

 

Now, of course, there are definitely variable factors in a duel against a Marauder, and this is how a duel goes against a pretty good one. If they aren't worth their salt, I can guarantee you that half of what I said is completely unnecessary, lol. Most melt shortly after the first Flamethrower, or go find an easier target to kill.

 

PS) I don't know what you're talking about for my WZ experience, unless you mean that your Pyro experience was different than mine? My Pyro usually puts up 400-500k in a WZ and murders things nicely; we were just up against good heals last night. I am not doing this because I'm bad at Pyro, or because I couldn't "hack it".

 

I was bored w/ Pyro, and wanted to try something in the way of a hybrid utilizing PFT, HO, and Pyro snares and see if I could play it effectively. Like the title says, it was an experiment. : )

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

2) The second scenario is just a straight out brawl, where we see and target each other at full health and CDs available. I still take him to about 50% with the opener while at worst I'm at 75%. Now the tide changes, and I am going down faster than he is. I get to 40% and he's at 25% and pops his defensive CDs, which I saved my carbon and stun for, making him watch his defensive CDs counting down and unable to do much during most of the duration. By that time TD is up again and ready to unload another burst on him.

How is it easy for a maurader to counter a PT if they know what to look for? look for what? all our abilities are instant cast, at least 60% of our damage output is elemental. We do just as much damage as they do in PvE, so in theory we have the same sustained/burst dps potential. In fact, I usually have a tougher time with equally skilled/gear Tanksins than marauders.

 

Out of curiosity, how are you managing to burst them faster than they can burst you, when they innately have better defenses than our Energy Shield? Cloak of Pain alone is reducing your damage by 20% for the next 30 seconds, unless you burn a stun early. Saber Ward cuts your damage by ANOTHER 25% because it's Elemental (for a whopping total of 45% damage reduction) for 12 seconds. Yes they stack, and yes, Marauders who know how to play will be stacking them as soon as they engage you. I didn't even mention the 50% ranged/melee defense that's also built into Saber Ward, making your white damage just as impractical as your yellow.

 

You didn't mention either of those, OR the trump card Obfuscate which a good Marauder will hold onto until you either toss your Thermal Det, see you Rocket Punch, or hear the laughter. You are NOT landing that Rail Shot for 6 seconds, period.

 

I don't think you've been fighting Marauders who know how to fight Powertechs, no offense. The scenario where you are bursting him down to 25% while you are at 40% is just not possible as a Pyro vs a decent Marauder, due to their being able to slow your damage FAR more than you can slow theirs. In your scenario, the Marauder didn't even attempt to slow you down until he was at 25%, and that is just BAD playing.

 

45% damage reduction for 12 seconds > 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds. They still have 20% damage reduction rolling for 18 seconds after that, unless you stun them or don't do ANY damage to them for 5 seconds (including your dots).

 

Obfuscate > anything you have. Period.

 

You didn't even mention the Force Camo, though we can easily counter that as a PT.

 

I dunno, man. My scenario is at least possible, because I have long periods of time where I am not taking damage from the Marauder while continuing to damage them. Your scenario is just the two of you beating on eachother until one falls over, and I have trouble believing you come out ahead of that brawl 9/10 times, unless you're fighting players who don't know how to counter a PT.

 

With all of that said, I also have more trouble w/ well-played Tankasins (in tank gear).

 

We do just as much damage as they do in PvE, so in theory we have the same sustained/burst dps potential.

 

This is absolutely true, but you have not considered that they can STOP you from doing any real damage for long periods of time. You cannot.

 

Powertechs can definitely beat Marauders in a 1v1 fight, but I don't think it happens the way that you described unless your opponent has suddenly forgotten what his own abilities do. <.<

Edited May 31, 2012 by Varicite

[LoKiei]

Marauders easily kill Pyros.

 

Even if it looks like you are winning, the marauder will cloak and restart the fight. AP does a far better job fighting marauders because it's actually possible to kite - to some extent.

 

Tanksins are the best PvP class currently.

Edited May 31, 2012 by LoKiei

[TheOpf]

You state you wanted advice. When we give advice, you disregard it, and claim that it's because we don't understand your build. We totally understand your build, which is why we advise against it. You have yet to acknowledge that your build has any issues outside of "heat" issues.

 

It is neither a best of both worlds or even good at both worlds. It may work for you, but it's not a sustainable build at all.

 

BTW, the laugh is no longer there. It was taken away in 1.2. Any Mara who pops all those CD's at the beginning of a fight is going to be dead soon. The two best Mara's I know are Jet and Companion's Companion. I can kill them both on my PT, but it's a brutal battle that usually comes down to who uses their cd's and defensive cooldowns best. I love when they pop their best CD's at the beginning of the fight. It means they got nothing left.

 

If you are having trouble seeing how he bursts them down to 50 percent before they get that far it's because you have never done it. I do it all the time to Mara/Sents in the Norse AP build. I have done it and had it done to me in Pyro. Heck one of the biggest complaints is I got the mara to 20 percent. I was at 60 percent. He popped God mode and I died. It's cake to blow through them until they reach 50 at which point they begin popping cd's and it's a race. I have fought hundreds of Pyro's, and Agooz's plan is the best method I know of.

 

The truth is your build is severly lacking in heat management, dps, and defensive cooldowns. This leads to overheating, poor showings unless you only fight once in awhile, and getting destroyed by any decent dps.

 

I would be glad to meet both you and your girl anytime in game. I have a raid tonight, but outside of that i am free. I have seen both of you several times in wz's. I was going to comment on my experiences in WZ's with you and your girl, but that doesn't apply here, except I have never come away thinking you guys were amazing. You are both solid responsive players.

 

However, you stated that neither Agooz or I are open to new things, yet we both constantly tinker with ideas and work with numerous PT's and VG's with builds and listen to ideas. Heck, I have had to admit that Pyro is better for straight up damage than my beloved AP. And that Energy Rebounder rivals HO in terms of pvp utility. We were open to your ideas, we just don't see the support behind it. I understand what you are saying, but the truth is if you want advice, we gave it. You don't want someone to tell you know it won't work. You want us to go wow that's awesome, let me try it.

 

Here is my advice:

 

1. Relax, lighten up, and realize that the advice you are getting is not what you wanted to hear. We are not against you or anything new. There is just no evidence except your word that this build works. Unfortunately, all the numbers and prior testing reveals they don't work. Check my Tibetan Candle posts.

 

2. Take the points from PFT, Surge boost, IM and Ione other abilityput it in shield tech for RS damage, steely resolve, and fire damage. That will improve your FB spam kiting. It will also give you a marked improvement in damage and simplify your rotation to prevent overheating even better.

 

3. Scrap this build and try something new. It has issues that everyone has listed.

 

That may not be what you want to hear, but this is the advice each of us has given you.

[Agooz]

I don't think you've been fighting Marauders who know how to fight Powertechs, no offense. The scenario where you are bursting him down to 25% while you are at 40% is just not possible as a Pyro vs a decent Marauder, due to their being able to slow your damage FAR more than you can slow theirs. In your scenario, the Marauder didn't even attempt to slow you down until he was at 25%, and that is just BAD playing.

 

45% damage reduction for 12 seconds > 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds. They still have 20% damage reduction rolling for 18 seconds after that, unless you stun them or don't do ANY damage to them for 5 seconds (including your dots).

 

 

1) You're really not paying attention to what I am posting. I have an 18sec Energy Shield, pretty much every 40some sec.

2) 45% damage reduction, sure...every what? 3minutes, for 12sec right? So it's basically just cloak of pain and that's on a 1min CD.

3) Undying Rage? they will only use it when they are really low or basically they are just committing suicide. As a pyro, there is always a good chance that I will burst through their last 20% health before they even think about using it. And if they manage to pop it, stun wastes 4sec out of the 5, making it useless at this point. They break stun? snares buys me the 5 sec I need anyways.

3) How do I take down a marauder to 50% while I am still at 75%? simple, CDs, Our opening rotation does more burst than a marauder's. A delayed TD hitting at the same time of a crit RS, will take pretty much anyone down to 50% before they even realize who is hitting them. Also because outside of defensive CDs, Mauraders are about 10% squishier than Heavy.

 

Burst in PvP is king, not sustained damage. That is why YOU not I, are having more of an issue with Marauders. You cant convince me that a spec that does much less burst, less dot dmg, have less crit, and have much worse heat management will do better than a full pyro against a dps class like a marauder because you have HO, and your FB/RP will do slightly more damage ONLY when they crit.

If you prolong the fight with them, or any other class for that matter, there is a much bigger chance that you will loose; a chance that their CD is back up, a chance a healer will come, a chance someone else will join and pummel you.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Agooz

[Agooz]

Marauders easily kill Pyros.

 

 

Clearly you dont know how to play a Pyro then. I am not trying to insult you. It's just that I refuse to believe I am THAT awesome in PvP and every single Marauder/Sent on my server sucks; especially that there is 1 PT for every 10 marauders in PvP. Bring or find any Maurader/Sent on Begeren Colony and have them find "Galambo" in WZs and we'll see how "easily" they can take down a decent Pyro.

[Varicite]

1) You're really paying attention to what I am posting. I have an 18sec Energy Shield, pretty much every 40some sec.

2) 45% damage reduction, sure...every what? 3minutes, for 12sec right? So it's basically just cloak of pain and that's on a 1min CD.

 

You said it was a fight w/ cooldowns available. I don't see how any of that matters, in this case.

 

3) Undying Rage? they will only use it when they are really low or basically they are just committing suicide. As a pyro, there is always a good chance that I will burst through their last 20% health before they even think about using it. And if they manage to pop it, stun wastes 4sec out of the 5, making useless at this point. They break stun? snares buy me the 5 sec I need anyways.

 

Yes, we all know how to deal w/ Undying Rage. It was the only defensive cd you mentioned in your entire post.

 

3) How do I take down a marauder to 50% while I am still at 75%? simple, CDs, Our opening rotation does more burst than a marauder's. A delayed TD hitting at the same time of a crit RS, will take pretty much anyone down to 50% before they even realize who is hitting them. Also because outside of defensive CDs, Mauraders are about 10% squishier than Heavy.

 

Right, I get this, but you still haven't said anything at all about how you are managing to do MORE damage to the Marauder than he is to you while you are doing 45% less damage overall, w/ a 50% miss rate on your white damage. You haven't said how you deal w/ the 6 seconds that you can't use white damage from Obfuscate.

 

All you said is that you DPS race a Mara down to 25% and then stun him and kill him. I have trouble believing that every Mara you encounter is terrible enough to let this happen. <.<

 

Burst in PvP is king, not sustained damage. That is why YOU not I, are having more of an issue with Marauders. You cant convince me that a spec that does much less burst, less dot dmg, have less crit, and have much worse heat management will do better than a full pyro against a dps class like a marauder because you have HO, and your FB/RP will do slightly more damage ONLY when they crit.

If you prolong the fight with them, or any other class for that matter, there is a much bigger chance that you will loose; a chance that their CD is back up, a chance a healer will come, a chance someone else will join and pummel you.

 

I did mention that prolonged fighting is not the most viable method in Warzones. I have issues w/ GOOD Marauders because Marauders are an extremely strong 1v1 class; it has nothing to do w/ my spec. I can also kill Marauders who don't know how to do anything but stand there and then pop UR when they're low.

 

Those are called "bad players".