Hard Talk On Gamebreaker TV(The Republic: Doomed To Fail)

[Wayshuba]

Who cares about the source if the information is vetted and true? Just because the numbers are bleak and happen to be coming from an apparently unpopular media source, does not patently negate them. There were a lot of great points in that video and the attached article, particularly the reminder that Mr. Ohlen was previously quoted saying that they intended to work with the full team for the long term. I guess those plans changed...

 

Why? I think it's clear by now that despite EA's and BioWare's best wishes (and hype), the game didn't perform as well as we all thought it would. That's not to say SWTOR is a failure. It's just not the success it was supposed to be.

 

The game's future is uncertain, in part due to a dearth of communication from the team, but also because of the can-no-longer-be-ignored population decline. Unless the team makes some changes--maybe being more open and providing clear insight into long-term goals, consistent delivery of new content, and the addition of requested features (x-server LFG, chat bubbles, customization options, etc)--I'm not sure the future is good.

 

Taugrim especially makes some good points in the video, especially one where MMO players are a different breed of players who like to be part of larger things, most importantly the community. This is another area where BioWare is consistently falling down at this point. The game continues to evolve as if it is being built in an Ivory Tower based on Excel spreadsheet math rather than customer driven satisfaction.

[Nyla]

The game was destined to be in troubles because devs were asked to make a game for everyone. It would be nice to have all gamers in the same game but it's not possible, people want things that are too different.

 

The only good way to make things is to be perfect in a specific part (the part that would be so good, players would use it to sell the game to their friends) and good on the other features devs have chosen.

TOR is just average/good on its features and its main selling point, stories are just ok too and that aspect completely disappears at level cap. If they really wanted to make a story-driven MMO, there should have be hundreds of lvl50 quests at launch and they should have added more since.

 

 

As for building community, raiding, PVP, swoop racing, space, ... are as much a mean to that end. The thing though is to use thoses activities with a specific community in mind and build a system that matches what that community expects from that activity with the system you build.

Again if they wanted to focus on story, TOR is missing things, from the lack of lvl50 quests to less linear stories, going through more complex stories, more choices and consequences, ...

 

The thing with TOR is there's no consistency in the system they build, which means no community is truely happy with the game.

[Griad]

Hmm i really like the game and would call myself a fanboy and even i can see the loss of population and lack of endgame. However i do still think they can turn this baby around and make it worthwile but it will take alot of effort and will clearly never get the numbers that WOW has and that is my biggest fear.

 

SWG got screwed up so many times and lasted for 7 years and managed to make some decent content even with a skeleton crew. So go borrow some ideas from SWG and put it into the frame they have the reason SWG lasted as long as it did was because of the community.

[theunwarshed]

EA needs to add social content to TOR.

Cause as I said before.

If someone refuses to speak right now to the 4 others on the planet with them.

Why would that change just because you merge servers and add 100+ more people?

The game in its current form offers no incentive to interact and be social and MMORPG players are their own worst enemies many times and quite frankly need the push to get it all started.

 

i generally concur. it's ironic that TOR's most lauded content is that which can be defined as "non-social" (the solo leveling experience with companion npc). i don't, however, agree with the notion that PvP and Raiding are not social activity. stripped down to its basic principles, "social activity" is simply interaction (either pro social or anti social action) between two or more agents. Raiding isn't designed to be a community-wide social interaction (because of it's progression aspects), so it naturally follows that it wouldn't contribute to the server-wide community building effort, yet it does serve to build unit cohesiveness within the framework of a guild. it isn't necessary that everyone be jabbering away at the same time for it to be considered a form of social interaction. it's just not a free for all forum type of venture (like a party). it's more like work.

 

pvp can be both pro social and anti social (often at the same time), but it's certainly not non social.

 

in TOR's case, it's just too segregated, easy, and designed with a single player rpg mentality (with some tacked on coop).

[Wayshuba]

pretty much every MMO after launch downscales as the number begin to drop off and plateau.. it would never be good business sense to keep supporting such a size team on a diminishing product.. until that plateau begins to be recognised and the team size stabilised around it from a budgeting perspective.

 

Many keep saying this but it simply isn't the case for full time staff in most cases. If it were, then MMO companies in general would be the worst managed companies in business. Taugrim hits on this in the interview, usually there aren't layoffs as most of the staff that is ramped up pre-release and then later cut are temporary staff that are not even employees of the company (and therefore aren't technically laid off).

 

Fact is, most companies estimate what a game will be like after launch - including the 'standard' sub decline, and plan appropriately in their mix of full time and temporary staff. After launch, the temp staff is dissolved and left with full time. Full time staff are let go when the game decline is generally much steeper than anticipated. If the rumors are true in what is highlighted in that video on the percentage of the team cut, then it shows the game is MUCH worse than most expect at this point.

[theunwarshed]

I like the GBTV, the Netflix drinking game is fun.

 

I'm not a big fan of the panel for The Republic. The only people I do like on that show is the host and Ed, the other two just annoy me.

 

Also MikeB makes most of the shows watchable.

 

Darth Hater wouldn't even round table the layoffs and their game implications, all they would talk about is how a bunch of their friends lost their jobs and that's the most important thing. I give GG props for coaxing JL into a discussion about a very real game-threatening event (which is what these fan site podcasts should be doing), otherwise he would've done the same thing on this show, which is to say, "I can't talk about that." ***, sounds like a BW dev! well, they aren't our friends, we are their paying customers and the most important thing is what are we getting for our money.

[NasherUK]

SWG got screwed up so many times and lasted for 7 years and managed to make some decent content even with a skeleton crew. So go borrow some ideas from SWG and put it into the frame they have the reason SWG lasted as long as it did was because of the community.

 

They could use cantinas, player housing/towns from SWG but not much else. SWG was one of the biggest failures in MMO history (right from the beginning), so it's not a good example.

 

But right now SWTOR pretty much offers the same things WOW does, except it has useful crafting skills and balanced classes. It also suffers the same problems of empty servers as wow is in decline as well. The problem with most MMORPGs these days is they are to linear, the whole point in MMOs origionaly was you made your own path. But ever since wow that idea has been lost and they have turned in to "theme park" games :/

Edited May 31, 2012 by NasherUK

[DarthScruffy]

Largely, the broad stroke headlines look much worse than the important details given in the discussion:

 

To wit:

1) SWTOR once had a workforce approaching 1000. So a large amount of layoffs/contract expirations have already happened prior to the announcement of the current layoffs.

2) Data seems to suggest the "core gamer" is much more casual

3) 500k seems to be the "profitable" number.

4) Subscriptions tend to be a lagging, not a leading indicator.

 

Those were all details that came out in the panel discussion.

 

In many ways, the apocalyptic overtones in the discussion are some combination of standard gamer hyperbole and a way to impose a sense of urgency on the devs.

[Mannic]

Darth Hater wouldn't even round table the layoffs and their game implications, all they would talk about is how a bunch of their friends lost their jobs and that's the most important thing. I give GG props for coaxing JL into a discussion about a very real game-threatening event (which is what these fan site podcasts should be doing), otherwise he would've done the same thing on this show, which is to say, "I can't talk about that." ***, sounds like a BW dev! well, they aren't our friends, we are their paying customers and the most important thing is what are we getting for our money.

 

This is why I've never really trusted Darth Hater as a source of information about this game. That site was pretty much made by the access BW gave them in the early days. Without access, they're just another fan site and they know it. You can pretty much rest assured they're just an extension of BW's PR staff.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Mannic

[Mannic]

Largely, the broad stroke headlines look much worse than the important details given in the discussion:

 

To wit:

1) SWTOR once had a workforce approaching 1000. So a large amount of layoffs/contract expirations have already happened prior to the announcement of the current layoffs.

2) Data seems to suggest the "core gamer" is much more casual

3) 500k seems to be the "profitable" number.

4) Subscriptions tend to be a lagging, not a leading indicator.

 

Those were all details that came out in the panel discussion.

 

In many ways, the apocalyptic overtones in the discussion are some combination of standard gamer hyperbole and a way to impose a sense of urgency on the devs.

 

There was really no hyperbole in that report. SWTOR was meant to be a WoW-killer. All the signs point to the fact that it is going the way of all the other WoW-killers to precede it. Sure, LoTRO, Warhammer, AoC, and the rest all still exist. Merely keeping some servers running is not the mark of success for an MMO. Those games are now irrelevant, and TOR is rapidly spiraling towards its threshold of irrelevancy.

 

It's not like we've not seen this trend before. It's also not like we've never seen legions of fanboys clamouring to defend a failing WoW-killer at every step of its downward trend. No matter how bad news gets, there will always be flocks of loyalists to create walls of text explaining why all the signs and portents of a game's demise are wrong, and how everyone reporting on it in the media just has an agenda. Most people in the games media don't have an agenda other than to get hits. They like it when games like TOR are successful because then there are more people interested in games media. I'm sure they're rather disappointed to see TOR going down the road of every other triple-A MMO released since WoW.

[Bloodstealer]

Many keep saying this but it simply isn't the case for full time staff in most cases. If it were, then MMO companies in general would be the worst managed companies in business. Taugrim hits on this in the interview, usually there aren't layoffs as most of the staff that is ramped up pre-release and then later cut are temporary staff that are not even employees of the company (and therefore aren't technically laid off).

 

Fact is, most companies estimate what a game will be like after launch - including the 'standard' sub decline, and plan appropriately in their mix of full time and temporary staff. After launch, the temp staff is dissolved and left with full time. Full time staff are let go when the game decline is generally much steeper than anticipated. If the rumors are true in what is highlighted in that video on the percentage of the team cut, then it shows the game is MUCH worse than most expect at this point.

 

Actually yes I agree with you.. I recognise that and shpould of added something of that effect in my posting.. alot of the staffing around a game leadign up to launch will be contract etc.. and this is no different with SWTOR.. except of course it wasn't just contractors by the sounds that made up the large number of staff losses, and some of them have raised a few eyebrows for sure... but yes I agree with you and Taugrim was the one that guided this point quite well as I infact said I think he brough lot more to that show than all of the others put together.

[JeramieCrowe]

I stopped listening to (and never cared) what Gamebreaker has to say a long, long time ago. Everything they do is artificial and staged or dramatized. They manipulate their audience and do a lot of give/take pandering. They will do whatever it takes to get attention including, but not limited to, manipulating polls (ask Darth Hater about that one), pandering, fabricating facts and passing them off as "inside information" and even latching onto rumors for the sake of traction with the community.

 

We all know TOR kinds sucks right now. I didn't need Gamebreaker to tell me that. But doomed to fail? On the off chance they are right, it will "validate them." When TOR doesn't fail they will just glaze over it and move on to their next proclamation. That's how it works.

 

Well said.

[Bloodstealer]

 

SW:TOR doesnt have forced grouping so you have to look outside the box for the solution. It HOWEVER doesnt change the fact that Raiding and PVPing are NOT social content or community building content!

Really.. you mean you dont feel obliged to ask for help whether through channel, guild, or LFG pug advets in spamchat to take on the various flashpoints, endgame content, Heroics etc.. I would say by there very design they force you to seek a social standpoint to overcome it... what you mean is peoples attitude to put the social effort in is not there.. ask yourself why that might be.. like I said its not the content in the game thats at fault (short of missing a few tools like LFG for example) but its the players attitude that they have harness and engendered as they walk through the 1-49 experience and the no longer wanting to sit around for hours spamming drosschat to get the group content underway....thats a game population problem the has promoted solo attitude.

Sitting silent in a Raid group while someone orders everyone around is NOT social behavior and doesnt build communities.

No one forces you to sit silent, you can play your part, speak your mind, share your ideas... again it comes back to the individual and whether they are open to social activity or not

 

Talking to your 4-5-6 buddies on your private vent server for your PVP premade is NOT a social building activity

Really.. and of course you wanna sit in silence hmmm.. how does one get buddies in the frst place or do you mean randoms.... well ok randoms u may not and I am no PvP expert cos its not my thing but whenever I have joined in I have never once noticed it lacking team ideas, communicatiobn tactical team play...

 

TOR doesnt have forced grouping (and Im happy for that honestly) so its got to embrace other concepts to adjust for the lack of that mechanic.

 

Rift Public Groups where people are free to join togather with out the stringent and arbitrary rulesets enforced by the raider crowds is another way. EA has said "were looking at it". So thats no help as it needs to be added now, not later.

Create your own channel and get others to join you.. nothing is stopping you from doing just that in SWTOR... but what possible difference except player attitude is there between a quest/ raid requiring a group of players to run or a quest / raid that requires a group of players from a guild or channel to run... you have to build the community attitude to want to run that content in the first place - yes You aand ME and others... the content in whatever shape or form it is, is in front of you, you just need to put effort in to make it happen....

 

This content needed to be in game from the get go BECAUSE there is no forced mechanic pulling people togather like the old games.

So the clear and obvious solution to me is something else that was requested day one these forums opened, is iconic, and really should have been in game from the start.

 

Cantina social side games

Paazaak

Swoop Racing

Holo Chess

Pit Fighting

And more thats been suggested over and over and over again since Oct 08, all through out the closed beta, during the open beta, and continues to be suggested to this very day on the Suggestion Forum.

 

All of these could be Social binders I agree but what you fail to realise is that whether your trying to get a swoo-p bike race going or a quest / raid going it still requires individuals to want to do it, want to promote it, its still very possible it will breed the jerk attitudes you see feel is all raids are about...Pit fighting.. what is that other than a mini PvP you know that elitist stalking ground you feel Pvp promotes.. or if its aginst NPC's etc then its likely socially limted to solo... unless you group up for it.... see the issue now.... all those exampples as I said are social ideas but nthey also promote competition and attitude.. so can easily become passed over like a raid or a GTN or any other content idea..... I think this is where we differ.. you are looking for content to fill YOUR time the way YOU like it... thats cool, others like me want that as well but I also like to carry that openess into other content areas that you seem compelled to try and alienate

Remembner all a mini game is, is a short form of content to create time syncs for players in game.. it slows down the players progression through content / gear / story et - they are distractions while queing up for things.. sure they can be social, but the same evils you have come out and said exist in normal content, can equally exist here...

I am starting to wonder if you are a roleplayer.. an old style roleplayer that dislikes anythng outside the roleplay concept maybe

That is fine,, I have roleplayed since 1978, I understand where you are coming from but this game is not just about RP social butterfies.. for the game to stay populated and progressive it needs to try and cater for a wide spectrum of playstyles and attitudes not just players who cry foul cos they cant do a /SIT in the nearest chair and share idle chat with others.

 

How many times have you read some person tell someone upset that their server doesnt speak on general or reply to them to "Join a guild". Last I looked joining some other players guild and abiding by some other players arbitrary rule set WASNT a stipulation when purchasing this game (or any MMORPG).

Huh are you being forced to join a guild.. No.. your are reaching again.. you are making up stuff to please your own ideals..

 

EA needs to add social content to TOR.

Cause as I said before.

If someone refuses to speak right now to the 4 others on the planet with them.

Why would that change just because you merge servers and add 100+ more people?

Because the 100+ players that choose to transfer there from differnt locations are doing so because they want to be part of a social newtowrk on a server that is busy and they will be the ones who will be prepared to get it going.. using LFG, opening guilds and channels up, playing out content across the whole game... you on the other hand will feel aggrieved that the harmony or your perfect balance has been .. unbalanced

The game in its current form offers no incentive to interact and be social and MMORPG players are their own worst enemies many times and quite frankly need the push to get it all started.

 

The social hooks are not there I agree.. but for a server to enable any hook to wrok its need people on it first and foremost. it then needs tools to aid bring them together, it need content that requires the mindset to open up to grouping and communication.. it needs players open to group up and interact..

The pxels on the screen are only part of the issue... the person infront of the screen is anothjer animal entirely, but Bioware can only do so much to engender peoples openess to group up...and with a heavy story lead game that is a tough mold to shape.. especially when players like youirself come to the game with the attitude that certain types of content are not good cos its nothing but a jerkfest, zergfest buy in...

 

I am sorry but you seem to be fitting rasther well into that "MMORPG players are their own worst enemies many times and quite frankly need the push to get it all started statement you have professed to us all here.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[ohpleasework]

The game, as it is with it's current fundamental design and pricing model, is already dead. 1.3 isn't going to drastically turn things around, and no one with any sense in their organization actually believes that. But they have to limp to a certain point while they change their pricing model and go free to play, and while getting there they have to keep shedding staff while making their infrastructure more efficient and squeezing what effort they can out developers that are all looking for other jobs. This is the reality of the situation.

 

So really, discussions like this are pointless. A year from now the game will be free to play, the design of the game will be fundamentally altered to suit a game with very slow content production, and none of us reading this thread will care because we will all have long moved on and forgotten.

[SWImara]

Gaming pundits suck just as much as political pundits it seems, hooray to employing hacks to develop our opinions for us.

[Drudenfusz]

I watch the Gamebreaker.tv stuff for a long time now, and still like how they do it. They address some things that could make player worried about the future of the game. Nobody there seems to want that this game fails, but there are certain issues that BioWare just don't take into consideration when they make decisions so far.

[kevlarto]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kimiko

I stopped listening to (and never cared) what Gamebreaker has to say a long, long time ago. Everything they do is artificial and staged or dramatized. They manipulate their audience and do a lot of give/take pandering. They will do whatever it takes to get attention including, but not limited to, manipulating polls (ask Darth Hater about that one), pandering, fabricating facts and passing them off as "inside information" and even latching onto rumors for the sake of traction with the community.

 

We all know TOR kinds sucks right now. I didn't need Gamebreaker to tell me that. But doomed to fail? On the off chance they are right, it will "validate them." When TOR doesn't fail they will just glaze over it and move on to their next proclamation. That's how it works.

 

 

I agree 100%, the worst game to hit the market as far as technical issues was AOC and guess what it is still around and making money, there is far wosre games out there than TOR ever was and they shuffled things around found thier niche and are still making cash.

 

Why do people listen to these sites, these people know nothing more than the rest of us, in fact I know that I have more knowledge than they do, for one I was playing computer games when they were still stuck to thier momma's ****. Plus alllot of other things I have done in the industry as well, heck maybe I should get a website and be self proclaimed game Guru, and talk trash about games that I know very little about. So many sheep out there today following anyone that has a blog or website, I will never understand that../shrug

[Nyla]

I watch the Gamebreaker.tv stuff for a long time now, and still like how they do it. They address some things that could make player worried about the future of the game. Nobody there seems to want that this game fails, but there are certain issues that BioWare just don't take into consideration when they make decisions so far.

 

The fact that their answer isn't to your liking doesn't mean they didn't take into consideration your views or issues.

[Drudenfusz]

The fact that their answer isn't to your liking doesn't mean they didn't take into consideration your views or issues.

Hu? Didn't claimed anything else. So why you quote me for this?

[Mulawin]

LMAO at all the fanbois thinks this game be saved, Get real!! you know everyone on the panel was telling the truth and you all SW fanbois just don't want to admit that!!!

[Nyla]

Hu? Didn't claimed anything else. So why you quote me for this?

 

hm, dunno, maybe my english skills are worse than I thought or ?

 

...there are certain issues that BioWare just don't take into consideration when they make decisions so far.

[Drudenfusz]

hm, dunno, maybe my english skills are worse than I thought or ?

English isn't my native language.. but I see how you got me wrong... I was mostly talking about the gamebreaker guys, and assumed you are talking as well about them... not BioWare... and no, BioWare don't give many answers on their decisions (so I guess they make many decisions without thinking about all the consequences they might have).

Edited May 31, 2012 by Drudenfusz

[Lurchy]

hm, dunno, maybe my english skills are worse than I thought or ?

 

He did'nt say 'his' issues he just said issues like, I dunno, the possibility that 1.2 patch legacy system would break the server transfers tool they had in place.

[kilosoldier]

You can tell the guys at Gamebreaker were hitting close to home by the reactions here. Instead of arguing against what was addressed on the show we are left with ad hominems attacks against the show and its hosts.

 

Classic actions of the desperate.

[kirorx]

Its funny that so many people down play this review and say the gamebreaker is just untrue or they dont trust there reveiws.

 

Its funny because back when this game came out the previews by these people were that the game was amazing and groundbreaking all that jazz, and people came on here to post those videos and people stood by it like it was the a bible verse.