Guardian need a buff

[nokizaru]

Maybe I just am not finding good pyro PT's or their vanguard mirror, but my vengeance jugg only loses a 1v1 to them if their gear is significantly better than mine or if I really screw up in the fight. A rage jugg/focus guardian should never lose to an equally geared pyro. They have all the tools to counter the one defensive mechanic the PT has (kiting) and they do the one thing the PT excels at (burst damage) better. The jugg and guardian are very strong 1v1 classes if spec'd right and played well. Marauders and Sentinels are really the only class I struggle with in 1v1's right now, and I think I will be able to handle them with better gear.

 

This is something I'm just not finding on my Pyro. Even with a Guardian spamming Freezing Force, I'm able to stay out of the 5m range for most of the fight and burn him down. Tankasins are a greater challenge for Guardians, but in my experience, Pyros have an edge, too.

[nokizaru]

There's the issue, he's claiming his tank spec'd guardian should be just as good at 1vs1's as a pyro PT.

 

That's two straw men in two posts. Have another read - I run in Vig spec. And give me a reason why a tank spec Guardian shouldn't be able to hold its own in a 1v1 vs a Pyro?

Edited June 1, 2012 by nokizaru

[Vodrin]

Last I heard, Force Stasis does damage. It also gives stacks of singularity when spec'd in focus.

 

Guardians damage is fine. If they could use something, it's a little defensive cooldown. They don't need to create a whole other ability, they could just take one of the sentinel only ability and make it available to the whole class (like pacify or rebuke, for example).

 

Guardians would be extremely OP if they got rebuke or guarded by the force. They are very strong as is. If any adjustment is to be made it should be making shielding more effective. Perhaps a talent high in the defense/immortal tree that gives a chance to shield force/tech attacks.

 

This is something I'm just not finding on my Pyro. Even with a Guardian spamming Freezing Force, I'm able to stay out of the 5m range for most of the fight and burn him down. Tankasins are a greater challenge for Guardians, but in my experience, Pyros have an edge, too.

 

That's interesting because I find if I snare a pyro at the start of a fight I will be on him for the duration. It's even easier with a rage build because you have an additional 0-10m charge with a speed burst attached to it. Against a good pyro I need to burn most of my defensive cooldowns, but I do not feel like I'm at a disadvantage at all. If I am running a rage build I feel like they are dead unless I screw up.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Vodrin

[nokizaru]

That's interesting because I find if I snare a pyro at the start of a fight I will be on him for the duration. It's even easier with a rage build because you have an additional 0-10m charge with a speed burst attached to it. Against a good pyro I need to burn most of my defensive cooldowns, but I do not feel like I'm at a disadvantage at all. If I am running a rage build I feel like they are dead unless I screw up.

 

With my two stuns as a Pyro and perma-slow attached to Flame Burst, I seem to always get the better of any spec Guardian. Though, come to think of it, the closest fights have always been against Focus spec. Still, like I said, I'm yet to lose to one - and I don't consider myself as being a 'pro' pvp'er. But on my Sin it's another matter entirely. I can easily out-kite a Focus Guardian (or any spec Guardian for that matter) and take range when needed. Just yesterday the Imp Fleet General Chat on my server was full of Tankasins rating the Pub classes they find easiest to down - Guardians topped that list.

[Vodrin]

With my two stuns as a Pyro and perma-slow attached to Flame Burst, I seem to always get the better of any spec Guardian. Though, come to think of it, the closest fights have always been against Focus spec. Still, like I said, I'm yet to lose to one - and I don't consider myself as being a 'pro' pvp'er. But on my Sin it's another matter entirely. I can easily out-kite a Focus Guardian (or any spec Guardian for that matter) and take range when needed. Just yesterday the Imp Fleet General Chat on my server was full of Tankasins rating the Pub classes they find easiest to down - Guardians topped that list.

 

I do pretty well versus tank sins/shadows on my jugg. Too many burn their knockback or stun after I leap in (and am immune), and too few use resilience to make sure they get FL/TT off at key points in the fight. Without using a CC I guarantee I will interupt that ability every time, and without it my damage is just better.

[nokizaru]

I do pretty well versus tank sins/shadows on my jugg. Too many burn their knockback or stun after I leap in (and am immune), and too few use resilience to make sure they get FL/TT off at key points in the fight. Without using a CC I guarantee I will interupt that ability every time, and without it my damage is just better.

 

That's the thing...with Harnessed Darkness I know I can force a Guardian to burn his Force Push/Awe/Stasis at times where I want him to...because that's all he has to interrupt my FL (unless he's D-Spec with Hilt Strike). And it doesn't matter if it is interrupted, because I just reapply my slow and go right back to channelling it. I never have to use my knockback in a fight vs a Guard....to do so gives him range to track back and Force Leap in again. I can also count on one hand the amount of times I've used Force Cloak....and that's only because I've been jumped with my other CD's unavailable. I'm not saying Guardians are weak, or utterly useless against a Pyro or Tankasin, but there's a marked difference there, and you'd notice it for yourself if you levelled these classes to 50.

 

And like I said, this isn't just limited to my own experiences. The other Tankasins I speak to on a regular basis say exactly the same thing, and it's also something I've seen echoed on many occasions on the forums.

Edited June 1, 2012 by nokizaru

[Vodrin]

That's the thing...with Harnessed Darkness I know I can force a Guardian to burn his Force Push/Awe/Stasis at times where I want him to...because that's all he has to interrupt my FL (unless he's D-Spec with Hilt Strike). And it doesn't matter if it is interrupted, because I just reapply my slow and go right back to channelling it. I never have to use my knockback in a fight vs a Guard....to do so gives him range to track back and Force Leap in again. I can also count on one hand the amount of times I've used Force Cloak....and that's only because I've been jumped with my other CD's unavailable. I'm not saying Guardians are weak, or utterly useless against a Pyro or Tankasin, but there's a marked difference there, and you'd notice it for yourself if you levelled these classes to 50.

 

And like I said, this isn't just limited to my own experiences. The other Tankasins I speak to on a regular basis say exactly the same thing, and it's also something I've seen echoed on many occasions on the forums.

 

The only classes I have played extensively at 50 are the sentinel and jugg. The sentinel is easier to do well with, but the Jugg is just as strong when I am playing at a high level. I think some of what changes the feel is the ease of which a class does what it does well.

[Lymain]

For all the talk of "team play" I see on here, the instances of 1v1 encounters are conveniently avoided. In larger maps like Alderaan or Novare Coast, you're inevitably going to have 1v1 encounters (rushing to bolster defence or aid in an offensive push). Coming from the perspective of someone with a lvl 50 Pyro PT, Tankasin and Guardian, I can tell you now that the Guard/Jugg comes up well short in 1v1's vs the other 2 tanks. I have never lost a 1v1 vs a Guardian with my Pyro or Sin. Not once. And I don't consider myself as being an 'exceptional' pvp'er. Not only can I utterly out-kite a Guardian with my Pyro and Sin, but I have the all-important advantage of range (not to mention the other tricks up my sleeve while playing a Tankasin).

 

For leaping across warzones and holding my own in group play? Yeah, my Guardian excels at that. But it still feels lacking when compared to the other tank specs in regards to 1v1 encounters. At some point Bioware is going to bring open world pvp back into the mix, and as things stand now, you wouldn't want to be a lone Guardian running about while my Pyro or Sin is lurking nearby.

 

My 18/23/0 Juggernaut with a mix of offensive and defensive gear is very competitive in 1v1s. Granted, hybrid is the only way to go for 1v1s as a Juggernaut, but at least we have one good option.

[Nisha]

shut up and go back to your mother

[dcgregorya]

This is something I'm just not finding on my Pyro. Even with a Guardian spamming Freezing Force, I'm able to stay out of the 5m range for most of the fight and burn him down. Tankasins are a greater challenge for Guardians, but in my experience, Pyros have an edge, too.

 

If you're 50% snared you cannot maintain range as a PT unless he is bad at following you and staying on top of you. Even your 2 second 50% snare only evens his speed with yours, you will never move faster than him while 50% snared.

[applekirks]

vengeance->anni marauder wannabe

Rage-> dies faster than marauders(Undying rage/Cloak of pain/Invi)

Immortal->Tanksins/shield tech are better off in defense/offense/utility

 

Imo guardian/juggers do not bring anything competitive to pvp that other classes can't do better.

 

Why bring a one to rated?

[ShadowOfVey]

Juggs are the most underrated class in the game in my opinion.

[Missandei]

Juggs are the most underrated class in the game in my opinion.

 

Every single day, when i see a particular persons in WZ, i have a luck to see on the top of resulting WZ list the Juggs with something like "380K Damage Done (DPS 605.0 per second, biggest hit 6k+), 200K protection)".. (this example is from Voidstar)

 

Mind that this is a Tank(!) who are fights against our PuG team where noone have less than 1000 Expertise..

So when someone is talking about buffs for Juggs i can only laugh on them.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Missandei

[Smashbrother]

Guardians need a survivability buff for sure. 3 min saber ward is poop. Focus defense is pure and utter trash. We are supposed to be the "tankier" JK class, yet sents have way more survivability than us AND far more dps AND more utility.

[denpic]

Guardians need a survivability buff for sure. 3 min saber ward is poop. Focus defense is pure and utter trash. We are supposed to be the "tankier" JK class, yet sents have way more survivability than us AND far more dps AND more utility.

 

I think guard defensive abilities are really good especially when in team play

But also I think they need to tweak other classes like sent/Mara survabilty vs their damage output

They need to be more glass cannon

[iNeXxS]

If you complain about Juggs being a bad class then you're doing it wrong. There was a great Jugg on my server who quit recently that would always defend East in Alderaan by himself and could tank 3-4 people by himself for a good minute before help arrived. In other WZ's like Voidstar he'd stick on healers and always interrupt/stun while guarding friendly players. That's how you should play the Jugg, as a class with a ton of utility that can help control the flow of a match and defend points well by intelligently using their cooldowns and stuns.

[applekirks]

If you complain about Juggs being a bad class then you're doing it wrong. There was a great Jugg on my server who quit recently that would always defend East in Alderaan by himself and could tank 3-4 people by himself for a good minute before help arrived. In other WZ's like Voidstar he'd stick on healers and always interrupt/stun while guarding friendly players. That's how you should play the Jugg, as a class with a ton of utility that can help control the flow of a match and defend points well by intelligently using their cooldowns and stuns.

 

And a tanksin/shadow can do much better with invi/sprint

[iNeXxS]

And a tanksin/shadow can do much better with invi/sprint

 

You're comparing an imbalanced class to a balanced class. Nerf Assassins, leave Juggs where they are.

[Smashbrother]

If you complain about Juggs being a bad class then you're doing it wrong. There was a great Jugg on my server who quit recently that would always defend East in Alderaan by himself and could tank 3-4 people by himself for a good minute before help arrived. In other WZ's like Voidstar he'd stick on healers and always interrupt/stun while guarding friendly players. That's how you should play the Jugg, as a class with a ton of utility that can help control the flow of a match and defend points well by intelligently using their cooldowns and stuns.

 

If your story is true, that means you and the rest of the people on your team are terrible because you didn't reinforce the node for ONE WHOLE MINUTE. Seriously dude? Your response time is *********** atrocious.

[Smashbrother]

You're comparing an imbalanced class to a balanced class. Nerf Assassins, leave Juggs where they are.

 

Whether shadows are considered OP by BW or not, guardian's defense tree still needs a reworking. It sucks.

[iNeXxS]

If your story is true, that means you and the rest of the people on your team are terrible because you didn't reinforce the node for ONE WHOLE MINUTE. Seriously dude? Your response time is *********** atrocious.

 

Pretty sure you read my post wrong. We would attack Jugg who was defending the node, he would use all his defensive abilities until his teammates on Teamspeak would arrive to help defend the node. Never said we wouldn't cap, which sometimes we would and sometimes we wouldn't, but that's not the point. The point is that the Jugg defending did his job well and had the ability to do so without needing a "buff".

 

Guardians/Juggernauts are a class that helps the team and does well in groups. If you play it like an Assassin or a Marauder and try to win every 1v2 or 1v3 situation, you're going to have a bad time

[applekirks]

Pretty sure you read my post wrong. We would attack Jugg who was defending the node, he would use all his defensive abilities until his teammates on Teamspeak would arrive to help defend the node. Never said we wouldn't cap, which sometimes we would and sometimes we wouldn't, but that's not the point. The point is that the Jugg defending did his job well and had the ability to do so without needing a "buff".

 

Guardians/Juggernauts are a class that helps the team and does well in groups. If you play it like an Assassin or a Marauder and try to win every 1v2 or 1v3 situation, you're going to have a bad time

 

im guessing jugger are good for 2v1 then? or 3v2 when you have more people on your side?

Edited June 2, 2012 by applekirks

[The_Bucket]

I always seem to top the charts in PvP in medals, and do a good "hybridness amount" of Protection and Damage. Just today I did a 200DMG/180Protection match on Voidstar and was 2nd in medals with 17.

 

Guardians I think are on par for what it should be like, and I only think some other classes need to be toned down a tiny bit.

 

You don't even have to guard anyone to get all the protection medals in a match. Just select the right targets for taunts, and guardian leaps. You should be able to obtain all your medals by that alone in the bigger matches.

 

Of course. I'm the best Tank in the game. So maybe it's easier for me then most.

[Smashbrother]

Pretty sure you read my post wrong. We would attack Jugg who was defending the node, he would use all his defensive abilities until his teammates on Teamspeak would arrive to help defend the node. Never said we wouldn't cap, which sometimes we would and sometimes we wouldn't, but that's not the point. The point is that the Jugg defending did his job well and had the ability to do so without needing a "buff".

 

Guardians/Juggernauts are a class that helps the team and does well in groups. If you play it like an Assassin or a Marauder and try to win every 1v2 or 1v3 situation, you're going to have a bad time

 

 

 

Gratz, a guardian can tank 4 people for a minute when all his cds are up. Too bad both his def cds are 3 mins cd, so he dies hella fast for the other 2m 30s.

 

Are you in recruit gear or something? 4 people not being able to kill one person in under a minute is the epitome of fail. Regardless of whether cds were up or not.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Smashbrother

[iNeXxS]

Gratz, a guardian can tank 4 people for a minute when all his cds are up. Too bad both his def cds are 3 mins cd, so he dies hella fast for the other 2m 30s.

 

And? Vanguards and PT's are the only other tank (not including Assassins), and they have only one real defensive CD that reduces damage by 25% and we can only use it once every two minutes. When you don't have your defensive abilities up, you are still tanky because of your shield generator, higher passive damage reduction, and increased dodge chance.