"The game is not linear single-player" -James Ohlen (flashback Q&A)

[TheGreatEski]

A line can't be a zig-zag, a zig-zag is multiple lines. Now apply these discrepancies to the concept of linear gameplay.

 

Semantics. A zig-zag can be a single line or multiple lines. It only depends on what you consider a line. Is a single mark from point to point a line? Then yes, a zig-zag is not a line. Is a single mark from point to point that occasionally changes direction a line? Then yes, a zig-zag is a line.

 

Eh, whatever, it's not worth arguing about.

[Lymain]

In a broader sense, one may not even quest on the planets without following a narrow, even singular path to get from one place to another. There is no exploration; instead one is forced through a tunnel even out in the world.

 

Have you even spent any time exploring? I did, and I found plenty of quests along the way.

[DiabloDoom]

This is false. One may choose to kill one boss, and another may choose to banish him. One may choose varied plots, DS/ LS replies, Companions, etc.

You don't understand what he meant. Yes you may choose whether to embark on the path or not, you may choose lightside, you have a choice which companion to romance, but the path and the outcome of that path is always the same. PS I'm not disputing that everything in this game is linear, but the majority of content is.

[Gradivus]

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16178-developer-q-a-live-blog-with-bioware

Saw this Q&A link posted on mmorpg.com forums, the Q&A article was from March 12, 2011.

 

How much is instanced?

JO: The game is not linear single-player. Alderaan is 7-8 World of Warcraft Zones in size. Phasing is used, but it is not everywhere.

DE: Phasing is used to ensure pivotal plot points are immersive. No lines to fight bosses. Everything to Cloud City an example - Luke goes off to fight Vader alone. (cloud city not mentioned as in game, only as example)

 

I seem to miss what exactly is not true here? Alderaan definitely IS the size of numerous WoW zones, with no loading screens inbetween. Phasing is not everywhere and the game is not very linear - you often have a choice of objectives, can skip certain objectives, can choose the order you do the quests (also class quests).

SWOTR is definitely a themepark game, but not a very linear one.

[USMCjv]

You have to do all the questing in the same general order; to me that is linear game-play. The "choices" you make along the way don't even really matter.

For Empire, the order is :

 

Korriban (Imperial) / Hutta (Lvl 1- 10)

Dromund Kaas (Imperial) (Lvl 10-16)

Balmorra (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

Tatooine (Lvl 24-28)

Alderaan (Lvl 28-32)

Taris (Imperial) (Lvl 32-36)

Quesh (Lvl 36-37)

Hoth (Lvl 37-41)

Belsavis (Lvl 41-44)

Voss (Lvl 44-47)

Corellia (Lvl 47-50)

Ilum (Lvl 50-50)

 

For Republic it's

 

Tython / Ord Mantell (Lvl 1 -10)

Coruscant (Lvl 10-16)

Taris (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

Tatooine (Lvl 24-28)

Alderaan (Lvl 28-32)

Balmorra (Lvl 32-36)

Quesh (Lvl 36-37)

Hoth (Lvl 37-41)

Belsavis (Lvl 41-44)

Voss (Lvl 44-47)

Corellia (Lvl 47-50)

Ilum (Lvl 50)

Edited May 29, 2012 by USMCjv

[turjake]

I guess it depends how do you want to define linearity, and how strictly you want to follow that definition. In this game for example there are 8 different class stories, all different from each other. That for example is a lot more than wow has. There are also 2 different factions with own quests.

 

On the other hand class quests are all same and linear to every player who play that class, same goes with the faction specific quests. You can ofcourse skip some non class quests, or the bonus series, or level yourself with pvp or space combat (slowly )

 

Since the prewritten main story is one of the main aspects of this game, I am not sure how else to do it than giving players a relatively linear series of quests to do. You could ofcourse give players some kind of fake choice like in kotor/me/da but even there some additional attacks happened at certain points of the main story, like after 2nd main planet some (every time same) group attacks etc.

[DiabloDoom]

Semantics. A zig-zag can be a single line or multiple lines. It only depends on what you consider a line. Is a single mark from point to point a line? Then yes, a zig-zag is not a line. Is a single mark from point to point that occasionally changes direction a line? Then yes, a zig-zag is a line.

 

Eh, whatever, it's not worth arguing about.

I consider a line to be 1 segment, whereas I would consider a zigzag to have at least 2 segments, the zig and the zag. There's no semantics involved, the line was introduced as the shortest distance between two points, the only time where you'll see this isn't completely true is when you measure the Earths surface and it becomes geodesic, but still only retaining 1 segment.

Edited May 29, 2012 by DiabloDoom

[Gradivus]

You have to do all the questing in the same general order; to me that is linear game-play. The "choices" you make along the way don't even really matter.

For Empire, the order is :

 

Korriban (Imperial) / Hutta (Lvl 1- 10)

Dromund Kaas (Imperial) (Lvl 10-16)

Balmorra (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

Tatooine (Lvl 24-28)

Alderaan (Lvl 28-32)

Taris (Imperial) (Lvl 32-36)

Quesh (Lvl 36-37)

Hoth (Lvl 37-41)

Belsavis (Lvl 41-44)

Voss (Lvl 44-47)

Corellia (Lvl 47-50)

Ilum (Lvl 50-50)

 

For Republic it's

 

Tython / Ord Mantell (Lvl 1 -10)

Coruscant (Lvl 10-16)

Taris (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

Tatooine (Lvl 24-28)

Alderaan (Lvl 28-32)

Balmorra (Lvl 32-36)

Quesh (Lvl 36-37)

Hoth (Lvl 37-41)

Belsavis (Lvl 41-44)

Voss (Lvl 44-47)

Corellia (Lvl 47-50)

Ilum (Lvl 50)

 

Well that's not even close to being true. On my first character - an agent, I completely skipped Tatooine, Hoth and Quesh, except for the class quests. On my next playthrough, I can skip other planets and have only a few overlap.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Gradivus

[DiabloDoom]

Well that's not even close to being true. On my first character - an agent, I completely skipped Tatooine, Hoth and Quesh, except fro the class quests. On my next playthrough, can skip other planets hand have only a few overlap.

 

What the point of his post was, is that you can't just choose to start on Ilum or Alderaan, you are being forced to go through certain planets before you can reach others, this is linear. As he said, the choices you make doesn't really matter as you will be forced back onto the path of planets.

Edited May 29, 2012 by DiabloDoom

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Where´s the contradiction? If you pick up all quests containing all heroics on a planet and you are grouped, you can play them in any order, so he is in fact right. If there is someone to group. The order of planets to progress through is linear, though.

 

You know what makes this game feel linear? The damn level categories of planets. Whole planets in level categories... nuh-uh.

 

So as a level 50 now and forever Hutta and Korriban are noob baby planets for starters. Stupid.

No, they couldn´t scatter areas of all levels across the galaxy. Had to make it a "per planet" thing. Great.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Gradivus]

What the point of his post was, is that you can't just choose to start on Ilum or Alderaan, you are being forced to go through certain planets before you can reach others, this is linear. As he said, the choices you make doesn't really matter as you will be forced back onto the path of planets.

 

Can you describe how a game would work without such structure? Even EVE Online, the celebrated epithome of sandbox MMO gaming, has fixed newbie starting zones and strict "levels" to zones, where you'll be vapourized if you go there too soon.

 

In SWTOR, your calss quest takes you through all the planets, but you can choose yourself wether to stay on them and when to leave. As said, you can effectively skip several planets and have only a few overlap when doing another playthrough.

[Gradivus]

Where´s the contradiction? If you pick up all quests containing all heroics on a planet and you are grouped, you can play them in any order, so he is in fact right. If there is someone to group. The order of planets to progress through is linear, though.

 

You know what makes this game feel linear? The damn level categories of planets. Whole planets in level categories... nuh-uh.

 

So as a level 50 now and forever Hutta and Korriban are noob baby planets for starters. Stupid.

No, they couldn´t scatter areas of all levels across the galaxy. Had to make it a "per planet" thing. Great.

 

I understand what you mean. The starting planets and some others are revisited in certain class quests but not too often. However, people already complained that traveling between planets is too tedious for them - what would happen if the had to travel a lot more often? I myself would welcome the idea, though many of the efficiency freaks most likely would not.

That said - there's nothing keeping BW from expanding the planets with different level zones.

[Bluerodian]

Can you describe how a game would work without such structure? Even EVE Online, the celebrated epithome of sandbox MMO gaming, has fixed newbie starting zones and strict "levels" to zones, where you'll be vapourized if you go there too soon.

 

In SWTOR, your calss quest takes you through all the planets, but you can choose yourself wether to stay on them and when to leave. As said, you can effectively skip several planets and have only a few overlap when doing another playthrough.

 

Skyrim does. You have quests, sure, but they are designed to be entirely optional. You can play the entire game as a thief stealing stuff and killing folks to amass a fortune. You are under absolutely no obligation to do any further than the tutorials and it is still a perfectly viable way to level.

 

As the game is designed so that enemy encounters scale, level becomes even less of a requirement in that game.

[Gradivus]

Skyrim does. You have quests, sure, but they are designed to be entirely optional. You can play the entire game as a thief stealing stuff and killing folks to amass a fortune. You are under absolutely no obligation to do any further than the tutorials and it is still a perfectly viable way to level.

 

As the game is designed so that enemy encounters scale, level becomes even less of a requirement in that game.

 

Yet you still start in Helgen and still have to go to the Graybeards to progress the main storyline. Same with SWTOR. If you want to progress the calss quest, you have to go to all the planets, but you can level to 50 perfectly fine with skipping half of them and hell - just by playing the space combat or PvP.

[Bluerodian]

Yet you still start in Helgen and still have to go to the Graybeards to progress the main storyline. Same with SWTOR. If you want to progress the calss quest, you have to go to all the planets, but you can level to 50 perfectly fine with skipping half of them and hell - just by playing the space combat or PvP.

 

If you even want to progress the main storyline. Another thing you don't have to do in Skyrim. Helgen is just a tutorial zone, and once you're done there, you don't ever have to so much as look at the main quest ever again.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Bluerodian

[DiabloDoom]

Can you describe how a game would work without such structure? Even EVE Online, the celebrated epithome of sandbox MMO gaming, has fixed newbie starting zones and strict "levels" to zones, where you'll be vapourized if you go there too soon.

 

In SWTOR, your calss quest takes you through all the planets, but you can choose yourself wether to stay on them and when to leave. As said, you can effectively skip several planets and have only a few overlap when doing another playthrough.

 

Mortal Online. Had no newbie starting zones, you selected which town to start in.

 

Anyway I'm not even arguing with you, you have had things explained to describing how the level progression through planets is linear yet twirl round in a circle and repeat yourself. Choosing to skip a planet doesn't make the progression nonlinear, being able to choose any planet at any given time would make it nonlinear.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I understand what you mean. The starting planets and some others are revisited in certain class quests but not too often. However, people already complained that traveling between planets is too tedious for them - what would happen if the had to travel a lot more often? I myself would welcome the idea, though many of the efficiency freaks most likely would not.

That said - there's nothing keeping BW from expanding the planets with different level zones.

 

Some people think they are complaining about travel times, in fact they are complaining about the loading screens everywhere which take forever.

Well in Star Wars, you need to travel that´s the IP. Just making it a "convenience" thing to remain on your level category planet and then to the next one just doesn´t feel right.

I remember the first time I checked the star map, and saw the level category planets I went like "***?? I thought I can go wherever I want like in SWG???".

 

Instead the categories dictate where to go next. Huge disappointment.

Why does not every planet have different areas of all level categories, and at least some sidequests spanning multiple planets? Each planet should have 1-50 level areas, then the game wouldn´t feel so linear.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Irilith]

In SWTOR, your calss quest takes you through all the planets, but you can choose yourself wether to stay on them and when to leave. As said, you can effectively skip several planets and have only a few overlap when doing another playthrough.

 

 

Skipping content doesn't break linearity, having alternatives does. Your class story forces you to visit all planets in exactly the same order every time you play, it even forces you into the same regions on a planet itself.

 

If your class quest would allow you to choose between planets or at least to choose between different regions on the planet, than there would be a way less linear feeling to it. But you can't. Bioware doesn't allow that. There are no real "instead of" decisions to make, you only have the choice to outlevel content and skip it.

[Drewes]

Instead the categories dictate where to go next. Huge disappointment.

Why does not every planet have different areas of all level categories, and at least some sidequests spanning multiple planets? Each planet should have 1-50 level areas, then the game wouldn´t feel so linear.

 

"Just" doing this would make this game a LOT more interesting. Levelling alt's doing the same Planet quest's over and over and over just bores the s... out of me. Even in the WoW Vanilla you could chose between zones to level in at some point.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Drewes

[Bloodstealer]

You have to do all the questing in the same general order; to me that is linear game-play. The "choices" you make along the way don't even really matter.

For Empire, the order is :

Korriban (Imperial) / Hutta (Lvl 1- 10)

Dromund Kaas (Imperial) (Lvl 10-16)

Balmorra (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

- SNIP -

- - - >>> Ilum (Lvl 50)

 

For Republic it's

Tython / Ord Mantell (Lvl 1 -10)

Coruscant (Lvl 10-16)

Taris (Lvl 16-20)

Nar Shaddaa (Lvl 20-24)

- SNIP -

- - - >>> Ilum (Lvl 50)

 

Actually that isn't 100% true, many of the classes have a branch wher you can choose which part of the story you choose to foLlow up on next.. the Trooper storyline is a good example... do I go to Nah Shadda ro do I go to Taris... then while I am busy my choice through, my companion throws me a curve ball and says he wants to go do something else as part of his/her storyline.... so there is some non-linear areas in this game even within the storyline, which lets face it should be more linear than not and is in most MMO's that have that kind of flavour.

I not saying SWTOR isn't linear, it most definately is for most of it... though I would also throw in a bit of what another poster has said, in that there are some zig-zags that can be thrown into your path to lvl50... however once you hasve run those zig zags once they begin to become straight lines in the sense of immersionas they are always there at the same place contained within the same walled map, so exploration is somewhat diminished at that point cos the quests, world bosses, loot, datacrones, heck even crafting mats are in the same place.... added toi that your story is largely linear and on a rial.. kinda where it falls down for me cos I begin to grow bored and not even the story begins to feel interesting anymore

 

If the open world was allowed to change as you enter and leave an instance then exploration becomes much more non-linear and a viable thing to do each time, objectives begin to feel more rewarding.. throw in some random events along the way like a mini boss spawning or you taking a turn you thought was to adatacron but now you are confronted with maybe the World boss instead... then non-linear starts to create some hook and immersion.

That kind of scenario also eleviates the ability to sit and exploit re-spawning chests for loot, or crafting nodes for your mats or even continually re-hitting those re-spawning mobs for xp and loot.

I remember running a quest on Korriban where you had to collect 20 crates or summing, in the middle of some tasty mando pirates... if you tried it alone at lvl.. it was an early night or at least it was until you discovered you didnt need to run round getting all the crates.. you just jump down behind a tent collect a crate, maybe kill one mob, then camp there and just hit the re-spawn crate.. where is the sense of achievemnet there.

By changing the mechaincs of the quests or the explorer areas a little more it will take away much of the linear feel while on planets.

 

Unfortunately there will always have to be linear points to any MMO .. but one simple thing that could help disguise it would be to allow players to remove the map from the UI or at least give them a choice to take away the arrow leading the way, maybe renew the fog of war effect to the map after you leave the planet.. perhaps leaving the key base nodes in though.

Themepark SWTOR definately is, and alot of it is linear (but to a degree has to be for the stories to unfold)... but the ability to effect the storyline is somewhat moot imo as many if not all of yourr choices and actions do very to alter the linearity of your story.. except screw your facial features maybe.. but it is what it is even though I would love to see the game shift its emphasis at some point to begin to incorporate some sandbox elements into it to add a twist and turn.... then I think then the game would begin to cater for a wider audience.

But thats something for the developers to consider as the game moves on.. 6 months in is still young for any game and as a reference point they choose to create a storyline first based on their considerable single player game expertise, the rest is merely just been bolted on... but at some point genuine consequence needs to implemented, variety needs to be genuenly offered to the player (and I dont mean lets go fly a spaceship on rails for 15minutes to shift some credits into our bank balances cos we just spent it all on fluff)... it needs some creative genius added to pull and push players in different directions within their own game... whilst allowing the community to start taking on more group responsibilites, maybe even group and guilld rewards and achievement bonuses.

What happens when players finish their stories and have been to every planet.. sit around grinding of course... thats fine (for a while) but I say it would be better to kill time running those same grindfest objectives if everytime there was some unknown element along the way or within the quest that isn't expected..... sure there can only be a certain amount of random options and events but there needs to be some kind of refresh when an instance is left and a hidden roll upon entry determines what is gunna happen.

Not something that is a short term fix, but its something I feel SWTOR needs if it is going to move forward and create a stable footing in the MMO world... there is simply too many other options out there now for players to move onto and just staying put in a one dimension largely linear gameworl that feels empty and souless just aint gunna cut it, at least not as an MMORPG.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Tiaa]

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16178-developer-q-a-live-blog-with-bioware

Saw this Q&A link posted on mmorpg.com forums, the Q&A article was from March 12, 2011.

 

How much is instanced?

JO: The game is not linear single-player. Alderaan is 7-8 World of Warcraft Zones in size. Phasing is used, but it is not everywhere.

DE: Phasing is used to ensure pivotal plot points are immersive. No lines to fight bosses. Everything to Cloud City an example - Luke goes off to fight Vader alone. (cloud city not mentioned as in game, only as example)

 

After seeing this I hope people finally understand

 

who is destroying this game. And it wasn't the

 

people that got fired.

[Costello]

The odd thing is that this was all a design choice that could have been avoided.

 

With so much of the game instanced it could have auto corrected to your level much like they did with the raghoul plague event my level 24 was fighting level specific monsters while level 50's were fighting level 50 monsters. This is even easier when you are in your own instance.

 

Equally for those big end boss fights they could easily have allowed you to use multiple companions and been up against multiple opponents but kept the difficulty inline cause your companions are battling elsewhere. Which could have helped remove the constant end boss fights from the class and planet story and kept them in flashpoints.

[Runeshard]

Because we PAID for it. and we cant get our life and our money back for all of it. THE CE, the 6 months i paid for hoping the game would get better, but atlas it never did so I'm stuck here cause i believe in getting what i paid for.

 

If that is the argument then I don't understand the need to spend even more time here trashing the game, as well as on other forums. I'm not saying you're doing this, haven't looked at your post history. I do know that a lot of people are doing this though. Some do indeed have valid complaints and issues that they raise, others simply hang around, day in and day out, hour after hour posting complete bile over and over again. Saying that they paid for it is no justification for that.

[Gradivus]

Mortal Online. Had no newbie starting zones, you selected which town to start in.

 

Anyway I'm not even arguing with you, you have had things explained to describing how the level progression through planets is linear yet twirl round in a circle and repeat yourself. Choosing to skip a planet doesn't make the progression nonlinear, being able to choose any planet at any given time would make it nonlinear.

 

But Mortal Online is a completely different type of game. In a level based game, you have to have level based content. If you don't like level based games and everything that comes with them, you won't like SWTOR. Simple as that. Bioware have been crystal clear on what type of game SWTOR will be - from the very start. And SWTOR is a very good themepark mmo.

 

After years of testing and trying, I've found out that I prefer themepark MMOs (AoC, SWTOR) to sandbox ones (late SWG, EVE). Each to his own.

[Gradivus]

After seeing this I hope people finally understand

 

who is destroying this game. And it wasn't the

 

people that got fired.

 

What do you think is wrong in James Ohlen's statement?