Daniel Erickson thinks X-Server LFG is last resort

[Skidrowbro]

Actually you are pretty much proving our point. Whether someone is a bad player or they are a jerk, you should have the option to not group with them again.

 

I once entered a dungeon using the LFG tool in WoW. I was the healer. There was a solo tank and the other three players were all dps and were from the same guild (They queued together obviously). One of the dps people rolled on a tanking item and won it. The tank called BS and I agreed. The three dps people laughed at him and said "Too bad, we don't care." When he said he wasn't moving until he got the tanking item, they tried to vote him out of the group (Which means we would get the next tank in the queue). But they needed my vote to kick him. I refused. Eventually they started pulling and trying to get us all killed.

 

That is what you have to look forward to with a X-Server LFG tool. I had many other experiences like this. The most common thing is people staying in the group just long enough to see if that one item they want drops. If not, they bail on the group.

 

This is exaclty it, It's not the one person who is the problem, it is usually the 2 or 3 from a guild that are the problem

[EcrirTwyLar]

This is exaclty it, It's not the one person who is the problem, it is usually the 2 or 3 from a guild that are the problem

 

Yeah, and the "vote kick" option gives them additional power that they can abuse. You don't like their ninja looting, too bad they will just vote kick you out. If there is no x-server option, they will quickly build themselves a bad rep.

Edited May 28, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[Gungan]

Actually you are pretty much proving our point. Whether someone is a bad player or they are a jerk, you should have the option to not group with them again.

 

I once entered a dungeon using the LFG tool in WoW. I was the healer. There was a solo tank and the other three players were all dps and were from the same guild (They queued together obviously). One of the dps people rolled on a tanking item and won it. The tank called BS and I agreed. The three dps people laughed at him and said "Too bad, we don't care." When he said he wasn't moving until he got the tanking item, they tried to vote him out of the group (Which means we would get the next tank in the queue). But they needed my vote to kick him. I refused. Eventually they started pulling and trying to get us all killed.

 

That is what you have to look forward to with a X-Server LFG tool. I had many other experiences like this. The most common thing is people staying in the group just long enough to see if that one item they want drops. If not, they bail on the group.

 

What can I tell you. It happens. I certainly can't remember any instances of that happening to me. In fact, out of the hundreds of dungeon runs I did using the X-server LFG in WoW, I only remember maybe 5 instances where someone was purposely acting like an a-hole. It's such a small drop in the bucket that I honestly couldn't care less. Have sympathy for the tank, leave the group, and move on. Tanks and healers don't have queue times. Dwelling on these things and causing server drama in forums or general chat doesn't make the game better for anybody, and are more likely to put you on my ignore list than the a-hole, because I don't take the word of someone on the internet over my own experience with them.

 

All that being said, I bet you never saw those guys again, so why do you care?

Edited May 28, 2012 by Gungan

[EcrirTwyLar]

What can I tell you. It happens. I certainly can't remember any instances of that happening to me. In fact, out of the hundreds of dungeon runs I did using the X-server LFG in WoW, I only remember maybe 5 instances where someone was purposely acting like an a-hole. It's such a small drop in the bucket that I honestly couldn't care less. Have sympathy for the tank, leave the group, and move on. Dwelling on these things and causing server drama in general chat don't make the game better for anybody, and are just as likely to put you on my ignore list as the first guy.

 

All that being said, I bet you never saw those guys again, so why do you care?

 

I care because I play this game to have fun. I shouldn't have to deal with people like that. X-server LFG creates a nice environment for them. That is why if one exists, I want the option to disable it. As it stands, I expect to meet a lot more people with the new LFG tool and most likely after a while I won't use it much anyways.

[Bloodstealer]

Daniel Erickson, Lead Game Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic, in an interview:

 

 

How can a multi-million Star Wars online multiplayer game have a lead designer that is this clueless about running a successful MMO service?

 

Here's a clue, Daniel: I am not looking for some 'last resorts' in your service product. I want the convenience to play with millions of strangers, anonymously over the Internet, with the convenience of pressing a button and the magic happening.

 

A LFG tool is just that, a tool. It has to work 24/7. It has to work irrespective of US primetime, EU primetime, AUS primetime, Japan primetime, India primetime, Arab-Emirates primetime. It has to work for people working night-shifts, day-shifts, double-shifts, 1 job, 2 jobs, 3 jobs, not working at all or taking care of their baby.

 

A LFG tool works the better the bigger the population it can draw from. This is something that's obvious to everyone. Making it cross-server as a last resort is too late. This too should be obvious, at least to a Lead Game Designer.

 

World of Warcraft, a game you might think was at its best during Vanilla/TBC, put in theirs right after their subscription numbers had started to drop. Their subscriptions have since stabilized. Maybe that's a coincidence, or maybe they know a thing or two about running an MMO service and challenging your preconceptions.

 

Edit:

 

What really gets under my skin is the hubris. Does this Lead Game Designer never entertain the thought that maybe he could be wrong? Would he say the same thing if he thought there was a chance he had gotten it completely wrong?

 

If in 2 months, despite everything, X-Server LFG is added and someone wants to make the case that the game is on its last legs, well there's your money-quote, straight from the horse's mouth!

 

On the other hand, if in 2 months I'm on the outside looking in and see that patch 1.5 is going to add X-Server LFG, is that going to entice me to come back knowing that the Lead Game Designer is going for the game's last resort?

 

Well sorry OP but I disagree.. in its current shape a X-Server LFG will only serve to make the servers feel more empty for the majority of players, especially as they are only looking at server transfers not mergers so there will still be alot of underpopulated servers out there.

X-Server brings with it, its own set of community issues.. some of which players have already screamed about.. loot, attitude, lack of teamwork etc etc... I personally have no issues with any kind of group finder but right now, the main focus has to be getting servers populated first then if the same server LFG takes hold and has a positive effect, then maybe in the future expand upon it.. but right now I want population... errr no wait I want a game that has the performance capabilities to support larger populations.. then the other features and fluff will have a stronger chance of creating a positive experience for us gamers... right now performance sucks, server pops suck - - these must be the priorites going forward!

Edited May 28, 2012 by Bloodstealer

[Grayseven]

And look what happened to the people playing World Of Warcraft when the LFG cross server was implemented. Instead of actual decent players, they became wordless, mindless idiots who cared for nothing but themselves. People who would need on loot they didnt actually need just to sell, or leave a group if a boss they fought didnt drop the loot they wanted, even when it was only the first boss. Why should they care about other people? It is not like they would ever see them again, and even if they did, they can just leave the group and LFG using the tool again.

 

Yes THAT is what you are promoting, the lack of moral fortitude, or willingness to be patient. So I vow here and now, the day cross server LFG is added, I am GONE!!!!!

 

Sorry, but you are very, oh so very, wrong...

 

They were already wordless, mindless idiots who cared for no one but themselves. The LFD tool just brought them into the mainstream consciousness where everyone had to interact with them. If you were in a good guild or hooked up with people you knew you never had to interact with them.

 

LFD didn't create the problem, LFD simply made us all aware of it. The biggest thing is, though, is that you AREN'T FORCED TO USE THE TOOL!

 

That's right. If it is implemented...it will have no effect on you. None. UNLESS you use it.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Well sorry OP but I disagree.. in its current shape a X-Server LFG will only serve to make the servers feel more empty for the majority.

X-Server brings with it, its own set of community issues.. some of which players have already screamed about.. loot, attitude, lack of teamwork etc etc... I personally have no issues with any kind of group finder but right now, the main focus has to be getting servers populated first then if the same server LFG takes hold and has a positive effect, then maybe in the future expand upon it.. but right now I want population... errr no wait I want a game that has the performance capabilities to support larger populations.. then the other features and fluff will have a stronger chance of creating a positive experience for us gamers... right now performance sucks, server pops suck - - these must be the priorites going forward!

 

Well said. I agree.

[Mavery]

Some of the points raised by the anti-cross server crowd are valid, and others not so much.

 

People leave after a boss is killed because it didn't drop the loot they wanted.

 

Who cares? Even if it's the tank that drops, you get a replacement fast. Tank or healer dropping was a 30-60 second wait, DPS near instantaneous. I really don't see the issue here outside of some moralistic principle of "we should finish the dungeon with the people who started it."

 

Players will ninja loot because there is no accountability.

 

I played WoW in dungeon finder for the majority of two expansions (Wrath and Cataclysm). I did more random dungeons than was good for me. I can count on my hand how many times someone ninja looted. It just doesn't happen with enough frequency to warrant concern.

 

Look folks, here is a reality check. People are not playing MMOs for you. Players do not run flashpoints for you. They do it for themselves. Players want to be able to get into the game and get rewarded as fast as possible. A cross-server tool allows that.

[Gungan]

I care because I play this game to have fun. I shouldn't have to deal with people like that. X-server LFG creates a nice environment for them. That is why if one exists, I want the option to disable it. As it stands, I expect to meet a lot more people with the new LFG tool and most likely after a while I won't use it much anyways.

 

What is going to stop someone you same server LFG with for the first time from acting the same way? Are you really so naive that you think that everyone on your server pays attention to your personal blacklist when forming their groups?

 

You will encounter a-holes in both versions of the tool, and in both versions you are unlikely to see them again.

[Roalmo]

Someone at BW should point old Dan Erickson at the active population figures for the game and tell him: "It's time for the LAST RESORT". Edited May 28, 2012 by Roalmo

[Senatsu]

Sorry, but you are very, oh so very, wrong...

 

They were already wordless, mindless idiots who cared for no one but themselves. The LFD tool just brought them into the mainstream consciousness where everyone had to interact with them. If you were in a good guild or hooked up with people you knew you never had to interact with them.

 

LFD didn't create the problem, LFD simply made us all aware of it. The biggest thing is, though, is that you AREN'T FORCED TO USE THE TOOL!

 

That's right. If it is implemented...it will have no effect on you. None. UNLESS you use it.

 

That is a very common misconception "You aren't forced to use the tool". Actually we are. Indirectly, because 99% of the playerbase will be using it then the only way to get a group is to actually use it. And no, that doesn't mean 99% of the playerbase think it's good, it means that the playerbase can't be bothered to do it the hard way because they are lazy. We are human, we have always been trying to find quicker way to do things, except in this case it's destructive to the greater good. I'm almost completely sure you will not understand anything I have written here, but that's okay, I'm used to ignorant people by now.

[JeramieCrowe]

Because it SHOULD be a last resort. And even should that last resort event be met, it should be an X-server toggle.

[Bloodstealer]

Some of the points raised by the anti-cross server crowd are valid, and others not so much.

 

People leave after a boss is killed because it didn't drop the loot they wanted.

 

Who cares? Even if it's the tank that drops, you get a replacement fast. Tank or healer dropping was a 30-60 second wait, DPS near instantaneous. I really don't see the issue here outside of some moralistic principle of "we should finish the dungeon with the people who started it."

 

Players will ninja loot because there is no accountability.

 

I played WoW in dungeon finder for the majority of two expansions (Wrath and Cataclysm). I did more random dungeons than was good for me. I can count on my hand how many times someone ninja looted. It just doesn't happen with enough frequency to warrant concern.

 

Look folks, here is a reality check. People are not playing MMOs for you. Players do not run flashpoints for you. They do it for themselves. Players want to be able to get into the game and get rewarded as fast as possible. A cross-server tool allows that.

 

From my own experience of MMO over the last 7+ yrs.. I tend to agree with you although I cant speak of WoW as I never played it.. but what you say has mileage for sure.

My issues is not with the ninja looters or bad attitude PUG's persay.. more the effect of X-Server LFG's pulling players from already underpopulated servers thus exacerbating the issues further with populations... yes there is a flipside in that those players have the chance to get grped I agree but right now SWTOR has a much wider issues with populations than any X-Server tool will help alay... sure if they were to take the bull by the horns and merge 3/4 of the servers and do something miraculous with the games performance, then I wouldn't care if it was X-Server or Same Server cos TBH you get the same kind of people issues in PUG's no matter what tool you implement.

[TalkingDinosaur]

And look what happened to the people playing World Of Warcraft when the LFG cross server was implemented. Instead of actual decent players, they became wordless, mindless idiots who cared for nothing but themselves. People who would need on loot they didnt actually need just to sell, or leave a group if a boss they fought didnt drop the loot they wanted, even when it was only the first boss. Why should they care about other people? It is not like they would ever see them again, and even if they did, they can just leave the group and LFG using the tool again.

 

Yes THAT is what you are promoting, the lack of moral fortitude, or willingness to be patient. So I vow here and now, the day cross server LFG is added, I am GONE!!!!!

Here's what the OP left out:

 

...We firmly believe for cooperative play it is important to have a community and social responsibility that you simply can’t have with players appearing and disappearing from your reality. Instead we are pushing hard on servers that are massive compared to the ones we launched with. Early tests show we’ll be able to raise the peak concurrent user cap above what it was at launch. Combining that with server transfers to enable players to move to these new servers and fill them to the brim, we should see some fantastic, vibrant communities develop where Group Finder will always be able to find someone for your content.

 

In my time playing WoW ask me how many friends I made. How many people I actually got into a conversation with. Zero. The only time people would open their mouths was to thrash at another player who asked a question and received the typical: "noob" or "lol" reply. I don't understand how people can play a MMO and treat it as a single player game treating the players they encounter nothing more than AI's.

Edited May 28, 2012 by TalkingDinosaur

[Senatsu]

Players will ninja loot because there is no accountability.

 

I played WoW in dungeon finder for the majority of two expansions (Wrath and Cataclysm). I did more random dungeons than was good for me. I can count on my hand how many times someone ninja looted. It just doesn't happen with enough frequency to warrant concern.

 

Look folks, here is a reality check. People are not playing MMOs for you. Players do not run flashpoints for you. They do it for themselves. Players want to be able to get into the game and get rewarded as fast as possible. A cross-server tool allows that.

 

Oh yes, the entitlement age. Gone are the days where you actually had to do something to get shinies, and gone are the days where people actually loved doing the hard work to get those shinies. I still remember that adrenaline rush I got when all my hard work finally paid off.

You're a Wrath baby, unless you have some experience in dungeon and raid content from vanilla or TBC, then your argument has no validity.

[Gerandar]

so if people keep leaving we will get what we want? seems like were off to a good start O.o

[RachelAnne]

Sorry, but you are very, oh so very, wrong...

 

They were already wordless, mindless idiots who cared for no one but themselves. The LFD tool just brought them into the mainstream consciousness where everyone had to interact with them. If you were in a good guild or hooked up with people you knew you never had to interact with them.

 

LFD didn't create the problem, LFD simply made us all aware of it. The biggest thing is, though, is that you AREN'T FORCED TO USE THE TOOL!

 

That's right. If it is implemented...it will have no effect on you. None. UNLESS you use it.

 

You are just totally wrong.

 

First of all did I never have a rude ninja, troll or dps meter nerd in any of my groups at Vanilla and TBC. If you did form a group you knew everyone that did apply. In that way you knew who you invite, so that those rude people never got in any groups.

This did lead to the result, that they had to behave - after all they also wanted to play the game.

 

Also keep in mind, that the content must be adjusted to random groups now. This will lead to boring grind & zerg, like at every wow dungeon today. Tanks run in, mages nuke with AOE and 1 second later all mobs are dead. Not fun at all, so also this does affect those who dislike the tool and want to have fun without it.

The whole game will be adjusted so that it can be beaten in a pug, all those who form their own groups or play with friends have no content anymore.

 

Second fact is, that everyone is forced to use the tool. It will give bonus rewards, it will make you queue as often as you want, no more insance locks.

 

At wow you MUST use it to be able to gather points, it wont be any different at Tor. Lets face it, the tool does only work if people get high profit by queueing for it, else no one would take that torture.

Edited May 28, 2012 by RachelAnne

[Senatsu]

so if people keep leaving we will get what we want? seems like were off to a good start O.o

 

Well, it's BioWare so if the game holds a steady 100k subs within 5 years, maybe they will consider doing something like removing some of the 122 US servers, 50 EU servers etc.

[Skidrowbro]

To put it simple, when I bought WoW it was an MMORPG, when I left WoW, it was an MMO

[Bloodstealer]

Oh yes, the entitlement age. Gone are the days where you actually had to do something to get shinies, and gone are the days where people actually loved doing the hard work to get those shinies. I still remember that adrenaline rush I got when all my hard work finally paid off.

You're a Wrath baby, unless you have some experience in dungeon and raid content from vanilla or TBC, then your argument has no validity.

 

Yeah I remember those days.. Risk and Reward.. gave the best sense of achievement in any MMO... todays carebear MMO thinkers are just to afraid to incur the wrath of the 8yr old whinner brigade who lacked the intelligence and patience to overcome quest and Raid challenges.. so everything got dumbed down and loot became a free for all we no longer had a sense of uniquesness after grabbinbg a set of seven fingured gloves or a titans belt or any kind of special / rare loot drop .. nowadays they are 2 a penny and if you wanna sit back and watch a grp do the work, you still got your chance of the roll to wake you up.... when game developers learn to be brave in their creativity then MMO's like SWTOR will be better placed to take on the bigger players... right now all MMO's are just chasing the pandas and carebears

[Mavery]

Oh yes, the entitlement age. Gone are the days where you actually had to do something to get shinies, and gone are the days where people actually loved doing the hard work to get those shinies. I still remember that adrenaline rush I got when all my hard work finally paid off.

You're a Wrath baby, unless you have some experience in dungeon and raid content from vanilla or TBC, then your argument has no validity.

 

Because WoW is the only game that offers dungeons / raids, right?

 

Oh wait...

 

I've been playing in this genre for a long, long time. I've dungeoned and raided when it was difficult and tedious. I know what I'm talking about here.

[Seregul]

Yeah I remember those days.. Risk and Reward.. gave the best sense of achievement in any MMO... todays carebear MMO thinkers are just to afraid to incur the wrath of the 8yr old whinner brigade who lacked the intelligence and patience to overcome quest and Raid challenges.. so everything got dumbed down and loot became a free for all we no longer had a sense of uniquesness after grabbinbg a set of seven fingured gloves or a titans belt or any kind of special / rare loot drop .. nowadays they are 2 a penny and if you wanna sit back and watch a grp do the work, you still got your chance of the roll to wake you up.... when game developers learn to be brave in their creativity then MMO's like SWTOR will be better placed to take on the bigger players... right now all MMO's are just chasing the pandas and carebears

 

See if you can make an argument without broad brushing and denigrating large segments of the playerbase.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Because WoW is the only game that offers dungeons / raids, right?

 

Oh wait...

 

I've been playing in this genre for a long, long time. I've dungeoned and raided when it was difficult and tedious. I know what I'm talking about here.

 

This is a pointless statement. Many of us have been playing for years. I've been playing online games since there have been online games. Doesn't mean any one person has a more valuable opinion. And these are just that. All opinions.

Edited May 28, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[Skidrowbro]

One of my favorite parts with the X-LFD is when the group wipes and people are going. "How to I get back to the dungeon? Where is it?"

[Mallorik]

Oh yes, the entitlement age. Gone are the days where you actually had to do something to get shinies, and gone are the days where people actually loved doing the hard work to get those shinies. I still remember that adrenaline rush I got when all my hard work finally paid off.

You're a Wrath baby, unless you have some experience in dungeon and raid content from vanilla or TBC, then your argument has no validity.

 

And if you come from the eq1 vanilla - velious era you know that vanilla wow removed all or most risk vs reward and effort that made the items you got and your character very special to you. I would play a new remake of vanilla eq1, i do not want to play another remake of vanilla wow.

 

Wow is a watered down version of what mmos were so is swtor, and if im going to play a modern watered down mmo it better have the conviences of a modern mmo.

 

It is just an opinion i guess but mmo "server communities" were being weakened even before wow, it all started with "uber Guids", when people didnt need to look outtside their guild to get the things they needed, it cut you off from the rest of the server. That imo was far more damaging to communities than anything else ever done in any mmo. Then wow came along and made it even easier to solo your way to max level, and its got even worse with games like swtor.

 

I do agree that cross server lfg has a down side and that a better solution is a "super server" or no servers at all. But when it coems down to chosing between the two choices:

 

1) driving the majority of the player base away with a meaningless time sink (waiting for a group) that prevents them from seeing content that was made for them and killing the game.

 

2) Chipping another piece off of what is left of a community that is already dominated by a-holes and people i dont want to deal with. That doesnt really effect me anyways because i generaly do everything in guild when i can.

 

Ill pick #1 every time.