For some reason we wonder why BioWare doesn't take us seriously?

[Superawesomerman]

I have a genuine, and I feel well reasoned criticism. Force Camo, as a 45 second CD agro drop, should be replaced by a skill similarly useless in PvP to that of other ACs. To my knowledge there is no other agro drop used by a dps class that provides this sort of defensive/survivability imbalance in PvP.

 

Nor is there any logical reason a warrior class dual wielding lightsabers can simply disappear once per minute. Is there some obtuse reference to source material? Or is this just another example of poor development failing to realize skill impact to PvP?

 

... balance is relatively fine except for merc/commandos.

[Achyllis]

... balance is relatively fine except for merc/commandos.

 

How so? No other dps AC compares to Force Camo. It is essentially a built in hack in PvP. That is relatively fine if you're the warrior I suppose.

[The_Brick]

Back on something that was said earlier about force users vs others.

Imo, the game would be much more interesting if Jedi/Sith were stronger than other classes. They could balance by allowing a higher number of Agent/Smuggler BH/Trooper so PvP wouldn't always be 8v8. Or maybe they could be allowed droid companions or something that would give a reasonable explanation as to why they can fight on par with a Jedi/Sith.

Balancing by making all the classes equal kills the flavor (imo again).

I'm still having lots of fun with PvP and i have a character level 25+ with pretty much every class...but i would have really preferred to see a bigger focus on the huge difference that separates a force user and a normal human/alien.

Just because you wield a flashlight doesn't mean you're invincible. The Glowstick Brigade are just as prone to death as are the rest of us. If you get facerolled, it's not that other classes are OP, it's because you need to L2P.

[Elkirin]

I thought the original post was excellent and would have posted my congratulations except that I went on reading the rest of the thread before replying.

 

I would suggest that people not focus on the additional posts by the OP and just concentrate on the First post, it was likely an honest request and I found it worthwhile reading.

 

Edit, removed an opinion as it was inappropriate..

Edited May 28, 2012 by Elkirin

[sauerkraut]

The Art of War. Not every battle fought on the battlefield. What other options a bad pvp-er has other than complaining on the forum? Edited May 28, 2012 by sauerkraut

[fungihoujo]

I have no problem with the OP's message- if you're going to complain/bring up an imbalance, back it up with facts.

 

My problem is a mix of him having to preface everything with an arrogant preamble that's generally only true from his own perspective in an attempt to make his opinion seem correct simply based on who he supposedly is- which when you think about it goes away from his basic message of 'make a good argument that's good because it has facts to back it up' if he's trying to back up his opinion in such a manner.

 

My other problem is he's doing the bloody thing he's complaining about in the first place- not only previously, but right now in other threads. Furthermore- if you do try to bring up in discussion about the marauder factual things- like what speed buffs they have- he simply brushes it off and says 'oh that's no big deal', or, he just lies- like me bringing up Combat/Carnage has 3 roots- while he's trying to say it's the only spec with a root and only has one.

 

I'm not going to just watch him talk trash and try to take some sort of high ground in it when he's this two faced about everything and isn't taking his own advice.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Are you kidding me? Never shown outright lies?

 

In another thread you are currently trying to argue that combat specced sentinels only have 1 root, and are doing so while trying to say I'm an idiot for saying they have 3 roots.

 

You are trying to twist everything. Every single post you have made in this forum for the past week has been trying to get Sentinels nerfed. Every single post.

 

You try to play up a "2 second root" as "significant CC" for cripes sake. I'm sorry, if the root is wearing off before a Sentinel can complete a Force Leap animation then it isn't "significant" CC.

 

Not only that you have tried to derail this thread this entire night making this about Sentinels and Marauders. Well, you know what, you won. You have managed to get me annoyed. So... Welcome to ignore. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I have a genuine, and I feel well reasoned criticism. Force Camo, as a 45 second CD agro drop, should be replaced by a skill similarly useless in PvP to that of other ACs. To my knowledge there is no other agro drop used by a dps class that provides this sort of defensive/survivability imbalance in PvP.

 

Nor is there any logical reason a warrior class dual wielding lightsabers can simply disappear once per minute. Is there some obtuse reference to source material? Or is this just another example of poor development failing to realize skill impact to PvP?

 

I'd be okay with this actually so long as it retains its capability to break roots and snares. In my opinion there is far too much CC in this game and I'd prefer not to lose one of the ways to break out of one of the CC's that doesn't trigger resolve.

 

I'd also request though that similarly Vanish on Operatives, Scoundrels, Shadows, and Assassins be removed from PVP viability as well. There is nothing, to me, more frustrating than fighting an Operative that pops out of stealth and stabs you in the back managing to overcome a pair of nasty stuns, almost kill him, then watch him slip away only to pop back healed a few seconds later save from fighting a tank and finally dragging its health down slowly only to have it vanish and, as before, pop back healed a few seconds later.

[Achyllis]

I'd be okay with this actually so long as it retains its capability to break roots and snares. In my opinion there is far too much CC in this game and I'd prefer not to lose one of the ways to break out of one of the CC's that doesn't trigger resolve.

 

I'd also request though that similarly Vanish on Operatives, Scoundrels, Shadows, and Assassins be removed from PVP viability as well. There is nothing, to me, more frustrating than fighting an Operative that pops out of stealth and stabs you in the back managing to overcome a pair of nasty stuns, almost kill him, then watch him slip away only to pop back healed a few seconds later save from fighting a tank and finally dragging its health down slowly only to have it vanish and, as before, pop back healed a few seconds later.

 

Thanks for your response. Cloaking Screen is different, in my view, because it is on a 3 minute CD. The Operative 45 second agro dump, Countermeasures, is completely worthless in PvP - as the agro dump skills should be.

 

I suspect a different set of devs worked on PvP and PvE (where an agro dump is obviously critical) I think the devs just overlooked Force Camo's impact on PvP. I hope so anyhow. This seems to be a major imbalance to me. Easily fixable? I have no idea.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Achyllis
Typo

[Arzhanin]

Hey folks,

 

We get that people can get passionate about their opinions and discussions, but we do want to drop a reminder in this thread to be constructive and respectful of one another. If you must criticize, or respond to criticism, please do so productively, and refrain from personal attacks or being rude.

 

Please note that threads that insist on continuing with rude or disrespectful behavior are closed. So we'd hope that folks take a step back and think before posting, in the interest of constructive discussion.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[Bytol]

Just because you wield a flashlight doesn't mean you're invincible. The Glowstick Brigade are just as prone to death as are the rest of us. If you get facerolled, it's not that other classes are OP, it's because you need to L2P.

 

Frankly, i don't think u got the point of my post, at all...like not a single word. I don't think i sounded like i was complaining about getting facerolled either?

I was only saying that it would have been an interesting take on the game. It's all hypothetical of course, and i'm sure it would have been possible to find balance somehow.

[anticept]

I'd also request though that similarly Vanish on Operatives, Scoundrels, Shadows, and Assassins be removed from PVP viability as well. There is nothing, to me, more frustrating than fighting an Operative that pops out of stealth and stabs you in the back managing to overcome a pair of nasty stuns, almost kill him, then watch him slip away only to pop back healed a few seconds later save from fighting a tank and finally dragging its health down slowly only to have it vanish and, as before, pop back healed a few seconds later.

 

You do realize that vanish makes the ops unhealable for number or seconds (think it could be nullified with skillpoints thou?) And really moaning about some other class that really is build on stealth+opener doesn´t give you right to bash other peoples opinions about mara/sents if you want to be a critic be open to other peoples criticism also.

[HauksbokT]

LOL who is this guy again?

[Awayy]

I find this post to be kinda silly.

 

I'm play both Tera and Swtor, and swtor is the butt of a lot of jokes there.

Swtor is pretty famous for how hated the state of pvp is, so Its expected to observe this behavior in these hostile forums.

 

I'm pretty sure Bioware is smart enough to be able to recognized these obvious lies and biases, and they should be able to recognize truthful experiences from other players (after all, they do get a lot of practice). I doubt Bioware no longer takes all forum users seriously because of the large number of poor posts. There would be no point of forums if they did.

 

 

 

The way they went around balancing classes in 1.2 appeared to be extremely unpopular. I hope they attempt to balance classes in a way that makes them more enjoyable rather than less (and no, I'm not referring to op=fun).

Edited May 28, 2012 by Awayy

[fungihoujo]

You are trying to twist everything. Every single post you have made in this forum for the past week has been trying to get Sentinels nerfed. Every single post.

 

You try to play up a "2 second root" as "significant CC" for cripes sake. I'm sorry, if the root is wearing off before a Sentinel can complete a Force Leap animation then it isn't "significant" CC.

 

Not only that you have tried to derail this thread this entire night making this about Sentinels and Marauders. Well, you know what, you won. You have managed to get me annoyed. So... Welcome to ignore. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

 

Seriously? You will get to your target before the GCD is up so you can get off a snare- I've never seen a leap take over two seconds to get to (also, talking combat/carnage- it's a 3 second root). Furthermore, I am talking only about that facts of what is there- it is a 3 second root, and the class has 3 roots in carnage spec- you were trying to say they have one.

 

Because you think those roots don't matter we should ignore them entirely? That's your argument for everything- you tried the exact same when you tried to say mara/sents have no speed buffs and I brought up the 15% off carnage ataru and the 50-80% for 10 seconds off of predation.

 

Yet I'm the one using hyperbole because I'm saying exactly what is there and exactly what it does?!

 

A 2-3 second root IS significant CC, heck, when you spoke about how to beat a mara as a sorc- you even brought up sorc roots yourself- that you can have in either the gimp lightning spec- or more likely the madness spec... that's a 2 second root. But.... it's ok for a sorc to have to rely on that 'insignificant amount of CC' at 2 sec, but a mara who can- I just did the numbers- get 36-39 seconds of roots off in a minute as carnage- is just fine?

 

Even then- I wasn't even saying it was significant- in fact, I was doing what you wanted me to do in your OP- just posting the facts as they were, not saying 'zomg it's impossible to get out of marauder root locks plus speed buffs, gap closers, but I won't show you why'.

 

I SHOWED YOU EXACTLY HOW- is that why you're so mad? That I took you up on your little challenge there and showed you that it wasn't hyperbole at all?

 

Buddy, you made this about marauders when you sunk everything into getting the jedi knight/SW to be the best class in the game years before it even came out- I remember arguing with you back before we even had all the classes. Even your OP you're using examples about the mara/sent. But, I was willing to make this just be about what's there right now, what you're saying right now.

 

 

Now, do I use hyperbole from time to time? Yeah. Am I wrong from time to time? Uh, yeah.

 

But today, I backed it up- I went through all the abilities, I put them into lists, I brought up the counters, the times, what the abilities do. I did exactly what you wanted- and that was what finally got you to put me on ignore?

 

It does look like hyperbole, it does look like when I say it the way I say it- the marauder needs a nerf... because the marauder needs a nerf. Thing is, the absolute worst thing for a marauder when it comes to getting a nerf is exactly what you were trying to get people to do- look at it objectively. The moment you start doing comparisons side by side of CC, gap closers, defensive CDs, damage output, the moment you start doing all the number crunching, comparing to other classes- you get exactly what I showed you- the scales tipping heavily in favour of the mara/sent.

 

 

You know what? I don't even want the mara/sent nerfed- I want other classes buffed to be on par with the mara/sent, nerfs are almost never beneficial- and 1.2 showed that with how hard the community took it, and how heavily the pvp queue times were wrecked by it. But since the game came out, BW has not given very many substantial buffs....

 

That is, to any class but the marauder. Why expect them to buff other classes now when they have a history of nerfbatting? There is no reason- BW balances with nerfs, so we appeal to what they do. And you were doing the same thing when you thought your class was gimp, and you'd do it if they did nerf mara/sents below other classes.

Edited May 28, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Auxxi]

I say, what is black is lie and what is white is truth - even there is dark background.

[ProfessorWalsh]

You do realize that vanish makes the ops unhealable for number or seconds (think it could be nullified with skillpoints thou?) And really moaning about some other class that really is build on stealth+opener doesn´t give you right to bash other peoples opinions about mara/sents if you want to be a critic be open to other peoples criticism also.

 

Uhm, I think you missed the point.

 

I was responding specifically to someone who said they'd like the Vanish ability from one class removed in PVP. My opinion is that all of the vanishes are problematic in PVP. The main difference is this though:

 

If a Sentinel is at 1% health and he vanishes and runs away, he's still at 1% health unless he blows a heal or has a healer who can get to him. He also only gets to run away for 4 seconds.

 

If an Operative is at 1% health, he can vanish and run away, and hide behind a pillar and quickly heal himself.

 

Disagreeing with someone isn't the same as not taking criticism. Just because someone criticizes and your listen doesn't mean you have to agree with them, you can disagree. In this case I was offering my two cents on the issue of removing Sentinel vanish.

 

I, personally, feel Sentinel Vanish is more balanced than say Shadow vanish.

[TriviumIsGOAT]

I dont agree with this post at all, there is always gonna be people that overdramatize things, but its biowares job to sift through it all, and take every possible angle into consideration, it needs to be part of their job if it isnt already to read and sift through every single one of these posts, and listen to their community, its not hard to figure out who and what to listen too. Edited May 28, 2012 by TriviumIsGOAT

[anticept]

Uhm, I think you missed the point.

 

I was responding specifically to someone who said they'd like the Vanish ability from one class removed in PVP. My opinion is that all of the vanishes are problematic in PVP. The main difference is this though:

 

If a Sentinel is at 1% health and he vanishes and runs away, he's still at 1% health unless he blows a heal or has a healer who can get to him. He also only gets to run away for 4 seconds.

 

If an Operative is at 1% health, he can vanish and run away, and hide behind a pillar and quickly heal himself.

 

So you want to remove either healing from ops or vanish both kinda critical to make the class work. And ops need to spec for being able to receive or do healing for themselves after vanish since it gives a debuff for 4? seconds. I really don´t understand your quarrel with ops vanish it´s so critical to the class if it´s removed they might aswell remove stealth altogether.

 

I really don´t understand the whole point of Sent/Mara vanish then again most classes in Swtor are poorly planned and executed atleast in pvp mindset yes they work but they could be much more effective if they´d program the classes with more utility. Like Mando/Merc nerfs you take away dps from the least mobile and utility class just makes no sense if you don´t improve their survivability or movement or utility.

[Sulvan]

I do feel that bioware does not listen to us some of their updates are just dumb and pointless and everytime they plan on doing a big patch it gets delayed or something is not in there or it is bugged. This has been the same from launch beta they were on top of things now they dont care since they have already made millions in profit in the game. I cant play my sorc or sage due to no one on server and trying to heal sucks mara's jump in use ravage pop there dots then another jumps in and since it imobolizes ne i cant do anything. So yes i agree with your saying with maras pvp sucks as it is and i dont feel the devs care.

[Achyllis]

Uhm, I think you missed the point.

 

I was responding specifically to someone who said they'd like the Vanish ability from one class removed in PVP. My opinion is that all of the vanishes are problematic in PVP. The main difference is this though:

 

If a Sentinel is at 1% health and he vanishes and runs away, he's still at 1% health unless he blows a heal or has a healer who can get to him. He also only gets to run away for 4 seconds.

 

If an Operative is at 1% health, he can vanish and run away, and hide behind a pillar and quickly heal himself.

 

Disagreeing with someone isn't the same as not taking criticism. Just because someone criticizes and your listen doesn't mean you have to agree with them, you can disagree. In this case I was offering my two cents on the issue of removing Sentinel vanish.

 

I, personally, feel Sentinel Vanish is more balanced than say Shadow vanish.

 

Sent/Mara Force Camo is absurd. They are a non stealth dps class. Their 45 second agro dump carries numerous advantages no other dps class agro dump does. The skill should be brought into competitive alignment with the other agro dump skills.

 

Or simply turn off agro dumps in PvP and problem solved. They have no logical place in PvP anyhow.

 

A comparison of stealth tactics with this agro dump is not a valid comparison.

[Tzou]

it was february when ppl started complaining that BIO tricked us with this game.pvp content was hillarius,pve also(except pets storylines),balance of toons in pvp was tragic,and Wzs that needed only tanks and healers was the worst we ever saw.

then it was valor that had no worth at all.

 

when ppl said :pls dont make this game easier and pls dont listen to ppl that only wants their toons to be the best ,some others actually trolled us as no-lifers,******* etc etc.

 

i unsubbed ofc in end of february and ill never regret it.

 

i feel that ppl should judge even more BIOs behaviour and even shoo them for some actions they took and still take after all this time.

i can still remember them saying:open pvp in swtor will be a BLAST......

 

in any case i enjoy now the game that casuals created with the help of BIO at that PATHETIC guild summit were a bunch of zeros gathered to say their oppinions about the game.almost all of them should be banned from mmo games for zero-knowledge.only 1-2 of them actually tried to say something serious about pvp and pve but the answer they got was typical and to be expected.

 

the only reason i still post here is cause i was one of them that were trolled by casuals at those days for being over 80 valor while they were still lvling up.i never trolled them and asked for something but THEY trolled me and asked for everything.

enjoy your creation now sweeties

Edited May 28, 2012 by Tzou

[Armelle]

If you are a real online gaming critic (never heard of you), then be professional and don't try to use your position to push your agenda. If you worked for me...well, you wouldn't be much longer. Edited May 29, 2012 by Armelle

[wolverstreets]

I am sorry that you feel that way, however you aren't including the contexts of any of those quotes nor are you disputing what I said in any of them. Also, if you notice, they are all personal opinions and not once make any claim as fact aside from those that actually are facts.

 

 

 

And? You aren't disputing my stance. According to the lore of Star Wars for the present moment Operatives are indeed normal non-special (as in "possessing powers") individuals who live in the Sith Empire. The Sith Empire is indeed a Sith controlled essentially theocratic society that places Force Users, Sith specifically, on a higher tier in the socio-political hierarchy. They can be killed and executed by more or less any Sith with the only possible repercussions coming from other Sith. Thus they should fear Force users.

 

If you want other reasons why the Operative nerf was okay I can only reference many games from the past that had a similar issue. It simply is not fun, nor is it balanced, to die to a stunlock from a class that can approach and attack from invisibility and on my server the so-called "mythical" groups of Operatives actually did exist and it was completely not fun nor balanced to encounter them as in order to counter them it took a Trooper who laid down a stealth scan at the exact right time in the exact right place without any indication of when that time or place was.

 

 

 

And I stand by this statement as well. In 1.2 the balance was squarely with the ranged classes. This has the exact same problems as having the melee classes being on top. The only difference is that one supports the IP and one does not. True balance of course would be better, and I never said it wouldn't be, but if I had to pick between two choices that had the exact same down sides with the exception of one supports the IP and one doesn't support the IP then there is no reason to go with the option that doesn't support the IP.

 

 

 

Your argument means nothing here. Again, I would prefer a game that resembles Star Wars as this is a Star Wars game. The fact that you, for some reason, take offense to that seems suspect. I personally feel that you have a grudge against Jedi and/or Sith and enjoy the feeling you get when you see an on-screen Jedi or Sith die. It is a troubling thing that has become "popular" as of late.

 

 

 

Absolutely. That was a post pre 1.2 when Trauma was a joke and was also able to be cleansed off which is something you failed to consider. Since Trauma was so easy to cleanse off in pre 1.2 having it have a greater impact for the limited time it was on would have indeed been fine with me.

 

 

 

Actually you are somewhat correct and incorrect. I don't care if BioWare looks at the Sentinel, they have, in fact, looked at it quite a few times. They, and I, agree that the class is fine. I also did strongly advocate for the Sentinel, specifically the Combat Sentinel and the class absolutely needed it at the time. There is nothing wrong with the Sentinel class in my opinion, there is simply a lack of understanding on behalf of others and a failure to adapt to a new paradigm that is causing the current state of affairs.

 

 

 

I feel that you aren't really a Star Wars fan and I feel that you are biased when it comes to PVP as well. You push and advocate for Operative superiority and seem to celebrate any perceived defeat or Jedi and or Sith. I will not take your advice but I do thank you for giving it. I do wish that you would present the full context of an argument instead of simply posting a snippit however and I wish you would at least explain what you took offense to because in none of the snippits you posted did you ever point out a bit of hypocrisy in any of those statements. There were no lies, there were no mis-statements, and I was very clear that everything being said was an opinion.

 

 

 

I don't. That is the wonder of forums. We don't have to agree with each other.

 

Lol Professor Butthurt.

[kweassa]

About the most intelligent thread I've seen in months.

 

Like I always say, in any PvP forum for any MMOG, there are always a bunch of people who so easily without thought, proceed to blame the game for their own shortcoming. Contrary to the endless stream of whines and moans, there is a certain depth and unique merit to what SWTOR PvP gives us. Sure, its not perfect, but the true concept of "balance" is actually still better than most other game I've seen and played for the past 16 years.

 

When you have 2 million subscription initially, that naturally means you see that much more morons in the forums. Sweey Jebus almighty, the endless complaints against such a simple and elegantly effective system like Resolve, is enough evidence to conclude most people in these forums aren't really qualified in any way to be taken seriously in the PvP sense. You could either like or hate the Resolve system, but the system itself is working fine most of the time... and how long does it take for people to understand that? It's been months and montsh since launch, and we still have people whining about it.

 

 

Why does one have problems in SWTOR PvP?

 

Well, SWTOR PvP has some problems: (1) servers/population, (2) slight balance problems (which is contained at a certain level so such imbalance is never overly decisive in determining the outcome) and (3) premades-PuG problems(which stems from (1)...

 

...but other than this, if anyone has any problems concerning combat, go look in the mirror. That's probably our largest problem right in front of our eyes.