One thing SWTOR has brought to the genre.

[theskurGe]

It'll be an undebatable failure when it ceases to exist like WAR.

 

It was clear that WAR was a failure less than six months in. This game is following the same basic trajectory as WAR, it is basically a failure too.

 

There are 2 things that might keep it alive long enough to recover, though.

 

1) The Star Wars setting, and us Star Wars fans. We suffered through the Prequel trilogies, we can suffer through some MMO teethig,

 

2) Bioware has very loyal fans, even after they have released 3 lemons under EA.

 

Ok, and a 3rd - The Old Republic is an awesome setting, and KOTOR is like a religion to some people.

 

This game in its current state is a failure, though. Hopefully they can recover.

[Apocalypsezero]

This thread brought to you buy Lay-Z-Boy, the official chair of the armchair developer!

[Draeb]

Ok so what exactly makes an RPG then? I think we can agree and Final Fantasy VII is an RPG yet the story is still set and and no matter what choices you make Aeris will still get killed by Sepheroth. What you have said could be the most assinign statement I have read on this forum. SWTOR is an RPG. You assume the role of your choice and customize and make choices based on how you chose to play your character. As the previous response said, your choices affect who lives, who dies, whether you run, or fight, you still make choices that affect your personal experience. The only credence I can give you is each story will only end in one way. There is no light or dark side ending and choices do seem to have little impact on key events. Right now they really need to work on getting light and dark side perks in game. deffinatly i highly under utilized feature.

 

 

If you go back to D&D, people played certain roles in order to progress the game, but the level of role playing is limitless and truly provides unique experience and it's at times a lifelong thing. People still are playing out their characters. MMOs these days adapt the bare minimum requirements to be called a RPG. But the actual role playing aspect is very very limited.

 

BW has always gotten it wrong in my opinion because everything feels like it's on a guided track taking you through a theme park. But Bethesda has always gotten it right because you truly embark on some adventure where your actions do make a difference. Heck Fable tried to get to the very core of what a RPG really meant with very simple game mechanics. Your actions truly dictate the outcome of that game. Find a girl in town, give her gifts that she likes, build a bond, marry her, accidentally kill her because you got caught stealing when the guards came after you and you ended up shooting the guards and other town folk which ultimately you discovered that your wife was caught in the cross fire. Then see the entire town start to deteriorate as you continue. The game didn't entirely work because it was truly a difficult thing to do, but if he did exactly what he envisioned then Fable very well could have been the very best RPG video games has seen.

 

 

SWG did it partially right as well at the beginning. You had tons of decisions to make that actually made a HUGE difference. What city you lived in, what kind of house, what planet to live on, what your character did as a profession, what kind of fighter he was. These all sound like basic functions but they all had an incredible amounts of depth to them. My character was born on Tattooine, chose to live in Krayt Dragon City, his profession was smuggler, bioengineer, entertainer who conducted all his business on Coronet. He was a master brawler, marksman, smuggler, master pistoleer, dabbled in creature handling (for exotic pets to have for my own), dabbled in ranger so I could pitch tents to heal wounds, etc...

 

I developed a massive story with my character, one that if I wanted to, I could easily create a story utilizing the Star Wars universe and provide a compelling and interesting story within that universe even without being a jedi or rarely having any jedi show up in that story for that matter.

 

I was an imperial for proft but later defected. RPGs shouldn't get in the way of creating your own story. The moment your character is fully voice acted the facade slowly begins to fade.

 

 

BW has always done it wrong and I only took interest in this game because of the MMORPG potential but, the very reasons why I hated the other BW games carried over to the MMO aspect of this one.

 

 

You guys can continue thinking you're creating your own unique story within this universe, but I can guarantee you that there's probably 1/3 of all the people playing this game who is choosing almost the identical decisions as you are making as well. It's sickening to know it is most likely. This game is the anti-thesis of role playing. You're just assuming a position that's been predetermined.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Draeb

[Wayshuba]

Here, I'll make this even simpler.

 

I think that SWTOR would have been a better success under the ArenaNet model. Pay for the boxes, play for free.

 

But at $156-$180/annually, most are saying the game isn't worth it.

 

Yes, you can talk features, what's missing, etc. but at the end of the day the value isn't there for a lot of customers.

[Gungan]

Here, I'll make this even simpler.

 

I think that SWTOR would have been a better success under the ArenaNet model. Pay for the boxes, play for free.

 

But at $156-$180/annually, most are saying the game isn't worth it.

 

Yes, you can talk features, what's missing, etc. but at the end of the day the value isn't there for a lot of customers.

 

Pretty much. Pay for content packs individually. I wouldn't have an issue with this game at all if this was the model they were using.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Gungan

[tegororn]

Actually Swtor is not still at the point of no return. High expectations were not be able to fulfilled

 

Lots of mistakes are made untill now. But the tide can still turn. We will see this at the end of this year, not before.

[Griad]

Well, the original GW is about 7 years old, never charged a sub and has about 20 million characters running around in it. On top of that, it's success has created GW2, which also won't have a fee, and is possibly the most amazingly designed MMO I've ever seen with something for, literally, everyone.

 

To be honest i didnt like GW and i dont like what i have tried in GW2 so much for that, but each have their own opinion.

[CharleyDanger]

I haven't logged into SWTOR in a few weeks.

 

I work in the software industry and spend a lot of time thinking of games and video games in general. (Personally we do business software).

 

Sure some MMOs bombed fast and hard, but they didnt have a ~200 million dollar budget, a HUGE World wide known IP (Star Wars), a giant marketing campaign and the name of one of the best RPG studios in the industry(BioWare) attached to it.

 

It was the perfect mixture. How it possibly failed to achieve the success that was anticipated is baffling.

 

Do you think the greaser changing oil at Jiffy Lube knows the first thing about working on a jet engine? The dude working the register at ***** Sporting Goods technically works in the sports apparel industry. Do you think he has any real insight in to why Nike's stock goes up or down? All you did was regurgitate what has been said countless time across countless forums. The only difference is that you slapped a "I work in the industry... I mean business software, but its still the industry" on it. In a nutshell you work on stuff that people download to their computer. EA should totally ask India where they went wrong. Like 86% of that country "works on stuff that people download to there computer"

 

You tried to come across as a guy with some insight trying to give an objective opinion, but ya failed. Your bias was clear, and your credentials piss poor. Why not just be real about it like the rest of us. Just say "Yup, SWTOR sucks, told ya so, super fail" and be done with it lol.

 

Watch me be real about it....

 

My name is Charles and Im a SWTOR fanboy. People say the game has failed, but its still the 2nd most successful MMO ever. With 2 million copies sold (EA probably sees $25-30 a per), and almost 5 months of a million+ people paying $15 per, EA has made back a huge portion of its money. With in a few months the game will of paid for it self, marketing included. If SWTOR can keep 1-2 million subs it will be bringing in almost a quarter billion a year. I don't know, I would at least give the game a full 12 months before speaking on its "failure"

Edited May 24, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[uniz]

THANK YOU FOR THAT. For the love of Yoda, thank you. I've been trying to tell people that since the 2nd anniversary of WoW. World of Warcraft didn't even win over the majority of the MMO playerbase. I just increased the MMO player base by like 10 fold by bringing in battle.net kids and people who had never played an MMO before.

 

There is no way to create another WoW scenario. WoWs success was a 1 time deal for the genre.

 

both of you are so correct. this is the number one reason wow took off as fast as it did and stayed there. if anyone disagrees i will asked you one question. was wow your first mmo? at the time wow had only 2 other major competitors eq1 and eq2. it didnt get its millions of players from stealing players from those unlike what mmos are trying to do today. wow did a few other things well and innovative but this thread isnt just about wow.

 

this game was obviously released too early and most of us can agree to that. pvp is sorely lacking but if anyone played in beta, open beta or read the forums they would have known this before launch. i dont pvp anymore but i knew from beta testers that the pvp in this game was a major disappointment and needed alot of love well before and at launch. i remember listening in team speak of a few guildies in a pvp match in dec after launch inwhich one was laughing that no one could kill him as a sith warrior. he later learned that he couldnt kill anyone else either, lmao, which only infuriated him. players just ignored him. this guy prized himself as a self proclaimed great pvper and quit the game over this even though he played beta and knew that pvp was incomplete.

 

the moral of this story is that alot of people knew the state of the game before launch, bought it anyways and then wondered why a year of problems isnt fixed in a few weeks or months. it is true fixes here are painfully slow compaired to common mmo standards but they are comming. it can be argued that priorities are being mismanaged as to what needs to be done rather than the fluff that we are getting instead. server mergers were needed for sometime not crewskill changes for example. it is pointless to make new widgets with no one to sell them to.

 

another problem is too many people have left thier beloved mmo of several years either by choice or by force (swg) and then go to every new one trying to make it into what hey came from. i guess it is only human to want to change back to something you feel is a better system that you are comfortable with but what worked in one doesnt always work in another. when this doesnt happen they get mad and run out like a spoiled child. you see this alot here on these forums. you will continue to see it in years to come.

[Kendu]

Yeah except angry birds or temple run would disagree with you.

 

I would be willing to bet "Farmville" would as well.

 

Those games had nil for production costs really, and have made more money then something like SWTOR. THats crazy. In the first quarter, Zynga generated about $235 million in revenue. Thats just in the first quarter.

 

Rovio(Angry Birds) makes over $80million a year. The game only cost ~140k to produce.

 

Temple run had me good for a couple weeks lol....

[Ganrax]

1)The WoW era MMO genre is dead. Its no longer enough to simply have a themepark filled with quests and hotbar combat.

 

This is definitely one of the major reasons I feel it is failing, at least for me(obviously we have the population issues that they are working on fixing but they are just fixing a symptom, not what caused the issues in the first place).

 

I know I personally would have found it fun a few years ago(and did) to quest to endgame and then progress through group content downing bosses for loot just to get to the next one. Now though, I just find it overdone and boring, I simply need more to do when I am not raiding. I started to notice it in Rift before I quit and I definitely notice it here with the majority of my time spent ingame being in the Fleet now waiting on the next raid time. I finally asked myself why I'm spending my monthly fee driving around in circles in the fleet or staring at my bank or GTN with the only actual part of the game I'm enjoying being the raid part. Don't get me wrong, I love raiding and I love the operations in this game(EV and KP not so much due to them being mind numbingly easy but EC is definitely a step in the right direction) but raiding alone is not enough to keep me interested and subscribing anymore and the only reason I lasted so long was probably because of the Star Wars IP.

 

Personally I tried out Secret World's beta a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoyed it because it's different than the current "play it safe" Themepark WoW template that most MMOs are going for now and that peaked my interest. I am actually letting my subscription run out here for now and going to pick that game up to try it out. If SWTOR eventually adds more content down the road to keep my interest while I'm not raiding(I am a big fan of Open World PvP, and I especially think that a Base Control, like other game's Keep Control, type of zone would be a lot of fun) I will gladly come back and play again but at the moment it is unfortunately just another generic boring WoW clone(for lack of a better term) to me.

[Thoffs]

3 Main Downfalls of SWTOR:

 

- Over-develpoment of one-time content and under-development of central, replayable content (particularly at endgame).

 

- Failing to have server transfer/merge framework ready BEFORE release (especially when so many of the dev team came from WAR, where releasing with 100 servers and no means to condense them quickly led to the same exact crisis SWTOR is having).

 

- Failing to anticipate how popular PvP is. And then failing to redirect enough resources to PvP once realizing how popular it is.

 

I agree with this analysis -- good job.

[Bobiefatt]

It failed because it was rush released when it wasn't ready, because Bioware insisted on having an awful unfinished engine, because most of the content updates are fluff, because of some incredibly horrible desicion making (release legacy and wait another 3 months for transfers/merges when it's apparent that servers are dying), because BW got a little too excited with nerfing everything, and because there was a distinct lack of communication between the devs and the fanbase that didn't create a lot of confidence.

 

He said it all.

Even the full servers are running empty.

[zerosaint]

The game isnt dead yet guys & girls there is still abit of life in it yet! dont forget its Still a young game but yeah all these features that are comming out now should of been in the game well before launch also they should of made this game a hybird of the 2 themepark and sandbox this would of gave BW More freedom to develop alot better

design to the game and would of been the next-gen mmo as it would of contained a hybird genre in it which i would of liked to see in SWTOR

 

I'm sorry it's "should have" and "would have".

 

I don't usually grammar police but that drove me nuts.

[Typeslice]

I believe ultimately that the MMORPG genre as it currently exists is dead. Richer PVP as in Guild Wars 2 may help, but personally I find the simplistic questing, endless monster killing, and lack of making any real impact on the game world to make the games not fun.

 

Personally I had an amazingly fun time on my SWTOR playthrough with my first character to 50. It felt mostly like a single player RPG with some multiplayer elements, and I liked that.

 

Eventually though, RPGs end, and once I reached 50 on my character, I was done. I tried some alts and got them pretty far, but redoing most of the content just wasn't fun for me.

 

As a single-player RPG, SWTOR is quite good. The gameplay the first time through is fun and most of the quests feel unique (although even on my first playthrough I did skip most of the later quests). The story while not as memorable as KOTOR's or Mass Effect's is still fun.

 

If Bioware had released SWTOR as a single player game with 8 different main classlines I think it would have been much better received. I also think they could have dedicated some of the time spent on getting all the multiplayer aspects to work on some deeper quests and even so, ended up saving development money. As an MMO, the only added value is in cooperative missions (which could be made part of a primarily single player game easily enough anyway) and in PvP, which is kind of fun but somehow never as much fun as it seems like it could be for having so many players and the possibility of so much strategy.

 

Overall yes, I agree that the MMORPG as it exists (and always has existed really since the MUD) is tired and boring. Endless monster killing and non-persistent world-changing events (I killed the evilest monster in all the land, yet it respawns an hour later, and all its minions are still hanging around anyway) just don't do it for me anymore.

 

The genre isn't dead, it may just be headed back to the niche it was before WoW made it mainstream. In the end, WoW will have done as much damage to the genre as it did help it grow; or maybe it won't have changed anything at all.

[sambeta]

I believe the next generation of MMO's will have to incorporate a bit of every current genre to keep people entertained. An amalgamation of sandbox features with theme park story, real time combat that isn't as simple as it is now, exploration, locations that you constantly want to visit and entertainment themed areas (such as gambling, racing, space flight, sports of some variety etc) all need to be incorporated.

 

On the star wars front imagine TORs story mixed with GTA like environments and freedom (this would be amazing on coruscant and cityscape planets). Mix this with SWG space and crafting professions, the old star wars pod racer game, elements of huttball and bring in pazaak etc into the field and there is a never ending stream of things to do.

 

On the combat front there needs to be more options for weapons and classes. Make the combat seem like it matters not just running around spamming your usual 1111222233333 rotation, or what ever you currently use. With blaster combat for instants just running towards your enemy shooting/healing rince repeat seems so dated. Where's the option to use cover, try and out think your opponent? Melee combat should also have blocks and maneuver to allow each player to gain an upper hand that finally deals in a death blow. As it stands now there aren't any melee games around I can think of other than boxing games UFC games that allow you to counter and get the upper hand through counters.

 

Anyway an amalgamation of styles is the only way forward, otherwise we're all left with a stagnent field.

Edited May 24, 2012 by sambeta

[LeperJack]

Big budget MMO development and large scale production may well be things of the past... but I don't think that's really what caused the problems in SWTOR's development and release.

 

The statement about "you can't duplicate WOW because it's success was partially due to serendipity" may also be partially true, but...

 

I think there is room for successful large budget development and release in the industry, provided:

1. Game theory and design 101 becomes mandatory reading for the developers. This field has come too far in the last 20 years to be written off in favor of "but other company gets away with it!" or "but... that's how thee other games did it!" Grind is necessary for an MMO to continue and be fiscally sound. Grind that "feels" like a grind to the players is not. Find a way to make the "Grind" portions of the game almost as entertaining and engaging to the player as the "featured content" and you'll make millions. This is just one example.
   
2. The industry standard paradigm of metrics based design is tossed out the window. Metrics based design is great in moderation. As the industry moves more and more to having it be the end-all/be-all of design, it is showing its flaws more and more. Like many other software offerings developed under "pure metrics" SWTOR was released as a bare-bones, minimum functionality with the intent of adding features and content and making adjustments based on collected metrics from users. This, of course leads to nil-innovation, and many users are unwilling to wait for content to be added. Additionally, depending on how you "read" those metrics, you may not get accurate answers or even really be asking the right questions in the first place. Starting with an innovative and fully functional design and refining it through carefully applied metrics is an entirely different story.
   
3. Put on the big boy pants, put down the ego. When you combine metrics based design with a prevailing attitude among the developers of "the players will know what they like when I tell them what they like" you have a recipe for failure fueled by confirmation bias.
   
4. Speaking of... Some of your players will know the product better than you do. Accept it. There are players who've been playing MMOs (or older cooperative games) longer than many of your development staff have been driving. Whether you decide to listen to their advice on design or not, just keep in mind that they WILL NOTICE AND NOT BE AMUSED by "cheap" tricks like extending travel times by scaling up your world, keeping overland travel slow, restricting use of fast travel, and making inter-zone travel tedious, and then requiring large amounts of extraneous travel part of the regular play process as a way to extend content by increasing downtime.
   
5. Invest in customer service. Business 101. Really.
   
6. Twitterbombs, forum raging (yes, i realize the irony here) and even crazed consumers that show up at the studio are NOT viable sources of metrics. They do represent a portion of the community and of your customer base. They are not the majority.

 

Most of this seems like common sense to me... but companies continue to make the same mistakes over and over, and just go back to crying "oh well, I guess no one really can beat WoW."

 

I guess a certain someone was right when they said it's "so rare it should be a ***-****ed superpower."

[salom]

This really started to show with the sequels to Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect. Productions were larger, gameplay was streamlined, and depth was removed. Out of all genres, depth is most needed in an MMO.

 

It is amazing that this coincided exactly when Bioware cashed out to EA. The op was right, things are moving to smaller, leaner studios that have to put heart in there games. Old school Bioware was one of them. Mass Effect 1 is still the best in the series by a landslide.

[salom]

The game isnt dead yet guys & girls ..

 

Yes it is. I does not even have collision for christs sake. DICE is all that is left for EA unfortunately.

[LeonBraun]

To the OP, I must say that the results of this case study are not only naive and false, but they are insulting and offensive to the gaming community in general.

 

For starters, WoW's success is not fluke. The Blizzard folks clearly put in a ton of effort and are always on the cutting edge of MMO gaming, they lead the way and have for a good half dozen years now.

 

It was clear to anyone at Blzzcon 2012, or who watched it via virtual ticket, that the devs of WoW completely have the pulse of community when it comes to wants and needs of the genre.

 

Make no mistake, the struggles TOR has had have been created directly due to the fact the game was released in a broken and unfinished state. MMO gamers are (and have been for years) frothing to have a new MMO aside from WoW to play that delivers a strong and working product. TOR for many was very frustrating to enjoy for the first couple months, as many important gaming and social elements either did not work or were missing entirely.

 

For an MMO audience, that can only work for so long before many move on.

[Kaskali]

Yeah, sure. Main reason for products failing isn't that the products lack, but that customers are fools.

 

I didn't space-bar (at least until about level 42, when I got bored with all of the c-movie and generic MMO stories). And it took me 6 days playtime. All the money for the voice overs could have been spent somewhere else. Like on more content. Or a better engine. Better customer support. Some more content. Or maybe on more content.

You are missing the point.

 

BioWare chose to develop a game with immersive storytelling. Their vision for this game seems to revolve around the immersive experience that fully voice acted quests facilitate. They obviously had to make decisions about how to prioritize their development resources, and this is what they decided they wanted to invest those resources creating. It was the central innovation of this game and one of its primary selling points.

 

It sounds like you bought this game even though you really wanted a totally different Star Wars game made by people with totally different priorities. It is not BioWare's fault you wanted the game to be something different from the one they developed and advertised. Neither is it BioWare's fault that ex-SWG players wanted this game to be a sandbox despite BioWare's repeated warnings that this is an entirely different type of game.

 

It is not BioWare's fault that they developed an immersive, story-driven game which happens to have player vs. player combat, and hardcore PvPers bought it expecting a level of precision balance befitting an e-sport (which, quite frankly, is simply not compatible with the fundamental design of role-based MMOs). Nor is it BioWare's fault they chose to create an MMO that, by definition, has a semi-static shared world where each player's individual quest choices cannot dynamically alter the world as they might in a single-player game, and people bought it thinking that they were going to be playing Mass Effect in a massively multiplayer Star Wars universe.

 

BioWare more or less succeeded at what they were trying to accomplish. As far as I can tell, the number one reason people are dissatisfied with this game is that they bought it expecting it to be something different from what BioWare created, marketed, and sold.

[Gungan]

You are missing the point.

 

BioWare chose to develop a game with immersive storytelling. Their vision for this game seems to revolve around the immersive experience that fully voice acted quests facilitate. They obviously had to make decisions about how to prioritize their development resources, and this is what they decided they wanted to invest those resources creating. It was the central innovation of this game and one of its primary selling points.

 

It sounds like you bought this game even though you really wanted a totally different Star Wars game made by people with totally different priorities. It is not BioWare's fault you wanted the game to be something different from the one they developed and advertised. Neither is it BioWare's fault that ex-SWG players wanted this game to be a sandbox despite BioWare's repeated warnings that this is an entirely different type of game.

 

It is not BioWare's fault that they developed an immersive, story-driven game which happens to have player vs. player combat, and hardcore PvPers bought it expecting a level of precision balance befitting an e-sport (which, quite frankly, is simply not compatible with the fundamental design of role-based MMOs). Nor is it BioWare's fault they chose to create an MMO that, by definition, has a semi-static shared world where each player's individual quest choices cannot dynamically alter the world as they might in a single-player game, and people bought it thinking that they were going to be playing Mass Effect in a massively multiplayer Star Wars universe.

 

BioWare more or less succeeded at what they were trying to accomplish. As far as I can tell, the number one reason people are dissatisfied with this game is that they bought it expecting it to be something different from what BioWare created, marketed, and sold.

 

BioWare should have known better than to try to make a persistent world game where most of their development time was spent on one-time content.

 

So yes, it is BioWare's fault.

 

When you're making a game with a subscription, you focus on the content that is replayable on any given character. Stories end. MMOs are not supposed to. None of this would be a problem if it was a B2P game where you could buy story packs and flashpoint packs and warzone packs individually. That way you're not stuck paying a monthly fee for content you have no intention of ever seeing because you don't want to reroll an army of alts.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Gungan

[JediMasterSarynn]

I find it hilarious that you can do a case study on a game without actually knowing anything about the inner workings of the decisions that were made along the way or how much was actually spent on the project. Without actual details or interviews with current and ex-employees who would break their NDA and be forthcoming about SWTOR, you're basing everything off assumption and hearsay.

 

That doesn't sound like a reliable case study to me.

[JediMasterSarynn]

You are missing the point.

 

BioWare chose to develop a game with immersive storytelling. Their vision for this game seems to revolve around the immersive experience that fully voice acted quests facilitate. They obviously had to make decisions about how to prioritize their development resources, and this is what they decided they wanted to invest those resources creating. It was the central innovation of this game and one of its primary selling points.

 

It sounds like you bought this game even though you really wanted a totally different Star Wars game made by people with totally different priorities. It is not BioWare's fault you wanted the game to be something different from the one they developed and advertised. Neither is it BioWare's fault that ex-SWG players wanted this game to be a sandbox despite BioWare's repeated warnings that this is an entirely different type of game.

 

It is not BioWare's fault that they developed an immersive, story-driven game which happens to have player vs. player combat, and hardcore PvPers bought it expecting a level of precision balance befitting an e-sport (which, quite frankly, is simply not compatible with the fundamental design of role-based MMOs). Nor is it BioWare's fault they chose to create an MMO that, by definition, has a semi-static shared world where each player's individual quest choices cannot dynamically alter the world as they might in a single-player game, and people bought it thinking that they were going to be playing Mass Effect in a massively multiplayer Star Wars universe.

 

BioWare more or less succeeded at what they were trying to accomplish. As far as I can tell, the number one reason people are dissatisfied with this game is that they bought it expecting it to be something different from what BioWare created, marketed, and sold.

 

This is probably the best and most logical post I've seen around here. Thank you for so eloquently stating what I've been telling people for six months.

[Monroviius]

Long time and no post for me....but, this game lacks overall what MMO's have since November of 2006. Immersion of the person and the toon. I for years have looked for a game to give me my alter ego and can not find it. Games are supposed or rather MMO let us be social in a way we want. Theme park games did it at first but levels and builds restricted freedom of choice and now we have what the masses wanted..trash! I think we are seeing this backlash as the children and I'll say it (12-20) years of the early 21st century are now in there early 20's and have grown what I call an imagination. They are demanding choice not direction. Thank you Jesus for finally seeing the light.