Why do people crave open world PvP?

[SinnedWill]

Great quote...

 

I come from swg and open world pvp had objectives... Hold the city/take the city.... It was never a gank fest... It was several players engaged in combat.... It took tactics and knowing how to play your class as well as counter the other class... There also was only 2 factions.... Every battle i was experienced in swg was much more immersive than any in swtor.... Dont get me wrong i love swtor, but u guys saying owpvp is for mon competitive pvpers is funny.... When u walk on a battlefield with over 200 players it takes skill to beat any enemy superior to you especially when a bh is hunting you....

Well, I came from SWG too and it certainly was a gank fest... albeit I was alone... taking over anchorhead... spamming disarming shot 2 indefinitely, killing hundreds without ever dying (though I think they introduced the faction-controlling objectives for towns partially based upon the fact that I'd be silly and RP stating that "This town is under Imperial Control" etc.) - folks really didn't like rodians (with migrated stats to maximize action/mind regen rate) as master pistoleer's being able to spam disarming shot 2 indefinitely - so they made it do 1 damage and took away its knockdown (not that this nerf stopped multiple other re-grinds into god-mode builds). And yes, open world pvp was done very well in SWG - never have I played any other game where you could have 200+ vs. 200+ (laggy as hell, but crazy fun).

If they removed the in-combat revival lockout debuff so that it becomes character-specific (and either removed or reduce30s) and reduced TTK (with a reduction in healing to compensate, mind you), SWTOR could get some nice owPvP fights going (hopefully before it's too late).

[TheronFett]

In hindsight, the above would require server mergers at this point. There's just not enough players to fill warzones AND OWPvP at the same time.

[Smashbrother]

For all its flaws, SWG eventually got open world PvP right. For the most part.

 

There needs to be attackable faction bases on each planet, or at least several planets. For the sake of argument and simple math, let's say each side has 15 total bases. These bases would be guarded by a small number of NPCs, making it difficult for small gank squads to easily overrun them. Deep within each base is a console that allows a group of players (should require at least 3) to turn the faction of said base. Think of how the consoles in the new wz work...something like that.

 

If your faction controls the most bases, everyone in your faction gets a set of perks. Maybe it's reduced vendor prices, something small, like 5%...nothing game breaking. They also get more XP while leveling and more valor in warzones, again, something small like 5%. Small rewards like these give PvPers a reason to participate.

 

That would be a great idea, but wouldn't work due to faction imbalance.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Smashbrother

[DarthOvertone]

Open world pvp = Casual fun

Warzones + rankings +accurate matchmaking +8 man teams +WZ filters +XServer = Competitive pvp

 

Fixed it for you.

Edited May 23, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[damolawler]

I've never been a fan of Open World PvP.

 

People are naturally wusses. They will never attack somebody unless they have numbers, gear, or skill on their side.

 

Yes, because facerolling undergeared PUGS with BM-geared pre-mades in warzones is much more honest and competetive, and isn't really just ganking at all is it?

Edited May 23, 2012 by damolawler

[Astarica]

Yes, because facerolling undergeared PUGS with BM-geared pre-mades in warzones is much more honest and competetive, and isn't really just ganking at all is it?

 

Difference is that in WZ you never have a pure numbers advantage, while you can get that in world PvP.

 

For example I never see any of the Republic premades on Ilum, probably because they'd just die horribly when outnumbered by at least 20. I remember one time seeing one of the Republic's self proclaimed top healer of the server (and he was actually pretty good), he got ran over by 30 guys but managed to type: "LOL took 30 guys to take me down", never mind that he was the only red name to those 30 guys.

 

Numbers easily trump skill and gear and only one side can have the numbers advantage.

[Pekish]

I agree with the yellow text to an extend WORLD PVP in a faction game unless it's programmed as a BIG WARZONE with controlled numbers has absoluty no sense no fun and thats why in pvp server nobody does it

 

WORLD PVP exist only if

a) the game is guild driven

b) the guild have a war system based on people killed in world enviroment

c) cherry on the cake if you put some territorial control (not necessary and hard to program but hey why not dreaming)

 

in a faction game (persisten in his staticity) world pvp is a way like another to farm some point a way for the people not skilled in Warzone since they can count on number rather then skill

you will never beat a more skilled team 8 vs 8 but you may win 11vs8 < world pvp

 

yellow text is not saying thing as they are TRUE but he say thing with a reason behind so they look true unless you prove them otherwise

 

so prove us that world PVP is not only about the lame reward (and ganking) and we may start a discussion saying "it's for the fun" is not enough because right now as it is YOU CAN DO WORLD PVP FOR THE FUN

 

you can organize it your guild can!

Nothing stop you to have an alt on EMP and organize a war in some area in ilum/tatoonie on PVE server or everywhere on PVP server but it doesnt happen why? 99% of the people will say because there is no reward

 

and as yellow text say if you do something for a reward it's not "FUN" the reason you are doing it

this is logic this is why it sound "TRUE" because if you follow the logic it makes sense

world pvp = fun ...i dont see the logic in it

Edited May 23, 2012 by Pekish

[Smashbrother]

Yes, because facerolling undergeared PUGS with BM-geared pre-mades in warzones is much more honest and competetive, and isn't really just ganking at all is it?

 

Premades are only 4, so there are still 4 random ppl on the team. And 4 bads can easily lose the game for even the best 4 man premade.

 

And people cannot choose who they match up against. However, people can and choose to gank lowbies in world pvp.

[SinnedWill]

1. Exists in WZs too. There are plenty of LoS stuff and high ground to use.

 

2. No numbers restriction is a problem. The side with more always wins. Winning because you have more ppl is not fun nor does it take skill. WZs can be always action if the Q pops fast enough. I play on Swiftsure so the Q times are pretty decent.

 

3. Open world pvp becomes just as stagnant if you play it long enough. If it's non obj based, then simply killing people gets hella old. If it's obj based world pvp, it'll run into the same staleness WZs will have.

 

4. Completely wrong about this last point. Every class is useful in WZs. In world pvp, melee are complete trash, and ranged dominate because of all the aoe and being able to shoot from afar.

 

1.) Exists in predictable and always utilized in identical manner every time - becomes stale, predictable, and countered with application of abilities to help prevent when a predictable action would be used (i.e. AP p-tech's speed boost/knockback + slow/root/pull/grapple immunities and force shroud). LoS is also used predictably due to the fact that you eventually pvp in the same exact location so many times - open-world pvp tends to cause more "wing-it" diversity since there isn't one specific location or method to optimize it.

 

2.) Numbers were an issue in SWG as well - the faction populations were republic-heavy very early on. This caused the imperial pvpers to develop more advanced tactics and ended up causing them to have lower quantity better quality players - which eventually resulted in faction-hoppers, and faction population balances would fluctuate. If they implamented a zoning system (instances) restricting total numbers for each faction that happen to be "flagged" for pvp, this would help balance servers with population balance issues.

 

3.) Killing people never gets old to die-hard pvpers and certainly wouldn't hurt if they implamented some sort of reward for kills (based on numbers - i.e. ganks get exponentially less significant rewards) objective-based locations can be implamented to occur at random locations and so long as there is diversity in how best to accomplish victory for each attempt, this will help prevent it from becoming predictable.

 

4.) Lets just say we disagree here. Certain classes/specs already perform better compared to others in certain warzones - some classes/specs happen to have no significant loss to performance based on warzones. Some perform terribly in certain warzones, and well, some don't perform significantly well at all in the current warzones. True enough the skill of the player tends to cause my statement to be inaccurate, but if that same player has an alt and plays is with the same skill-level that performs better than the other (for specific wz's or all wz's depending on the class/spec), then you'll agree with what I'm saying.

[Quinlynn]

Well I came from swg and thats all we had as open world. It was fun, fast and could last hours. There was faction imbalance in that game as well. It was a different element but here there is no reason to have open world anymore but to have fun. They said they are working on adding a reward system but is not ready to release details.

 

SWG did have War Zones (Called Battle Grounds) starting in 2010 and it was a maximum of 16 vs 16.

 

Both open world and BGs, in SWG, offered the same rewards. BGs had added rewards that you could purchase with BG tokens. Winners and losers got tokens.

 

SWG also introduced civil war battles at NPC cities where allot of PVP took place. PVP was always optional in the NPCCity zones so that even those only interested in PVE could participate.

 

PVP rewards were not combat gear. All gear in SWG was attained through crafting for end game, not looting. Well wearables anyway. There were other items that were sought through looting and quests that could improve combat stats through buffs. Heroics in SWG (Same as Ops / FPs) granted stat bonuses for each time it was completed up to a maximum of 10 runs.

 

Majority of open world PVP rewards were officer ranks that also granted combat skills and buffs and titles. Ranks also granted access to items you could buy from a recruiter NPC. Stuff like vehicles, bases, buffs, etc. Rank decayed and could be lost if you didn't continue to PVP to maintain rank. Combat skills and buffs would be taken away as rank decayed.

 

On top of these rewards, SWG also had leader boards for PVP. Class, Guild, individual, etc. Top guilds could unlock the ability to create teleport locations.

 

I also agree that the attractiveness of Open World PVP is that it has more dynamics than a WZ. You could be alone facing 2 peeps in an area that favors defense and if you're smart you could beat those 2 or 3 vs. one. Yes, horde play has a role in Open World PVP, however that would not discount that it could not be overcome with good tactics like using a choke point.

 

Also consider that SWG offered allot of end game content in the form of item collectables that many used to decorate their own homes and shops. Many of those items became the driving economic items as the game wained.

 

Bottom line is that SWTOR / BW has allot they can do to bring World PVP to the game. Biggest issue in my mind is that their engine lacks capability to handle this game play, atm.

[RE-Amemiya]

For me, the allure is simply to get away from the fakeness of a WZ.

 

It's hard to feel like you're actually fighting a war, when you're simply fighting for control over some worthless gulch in an infinite time loop.

 

But yes, open world PvP can have its issues (especially performance ones!), so it's not an easy problem to tackle.

 

For me, the best open world PvP I've ever experienced, was when it had faction wide consequences. If your faction controls XXX, it benefits everyone in your faction. If you lose control of XXX, everyone in your faction suffers.

 

Unfortunately, in a game with only 2 factions, this type of thing can't really work, since one side will almost always outnumber the other.

 

I love that system (which has the same open world pvp system in RF Online )

I hope BW implements this system

[Kaesoron]

I would love to see some objective based open world pvp akin to something like sieges in Lineage 2 that was the most fun I have had in open world pvp, if it’s not objective based it becomes redundant and if its incentivised it encourages more people to get involved.

 

K.

[Pekish]

Yes, because facerolling undergeared PUGS with BM-geared pre-mades in warzones is much more honest and competetive, and isn't really just ganking at all is it?

 

this is bioware faul not player faul u cant blame player to PUG as much as u cannot blame player to PREMADE

 

i am an hardcore PUG never premade and when i fight premade i more often then not lose but i dont blame them to gorup together i blame BW that dont understand the problem and dont make separate queue

 

I find that PUG that complain about premade to the other player are pathetic and i am a puger

it's 100% BW fault

Edited May 23, 2012 by Pekish

[SinnedWill]

Difference is that in WZ you never have a pure numbers advantage, while you can get that in world PvP.

 

For example I never see any of the Republic premades on Ilum, probably because they'd just die horribly when outnumbered by at least 20. I remember one time seeing one of the Republic's self proclaimed top healer of the server (and he was actually pretty good), he got ran over by 30 guys but managed to type: "LOL took 30 guys to take me down", never mind that he was the only red name to those 30 guys.

 

Numbers easily trump skill and gear and only one side can have the numbers advantage.

 

In SWG (and other games I've pvp'd in) where there were population balance issues, this usually results in quality over quantity (meaning better skilled) players on the least populace side. Unfortunately, pvp balance isn't quite where it should be (and expertise bonuses benefit classes with high base damage abilities far more than classes/specs that don't have them). But, yes, they should implament a restriction of numbers for "flagged" players (via zones/instances) restricting the numbers on each side - for now. Different locations can have different # restrictions (i.e. Ilum could remain 100/100 - for the larger scale battles - and if only one side is present and hold dominion, they gain nothing - if fewer of one faction is present than the other, reward values should decrease based on population disparity).

[Crymore-plz]

Um maybe some of us want to fight with more than 8 vs 8 , in swg we used to have epic battles with 40+ on each side that lasted for hours at a time. Good times.

[Pekish]

Um maybe some of us want to fight with more than 8 vs 8 , in swg we used to have epic battles with 40+ on each side that lasted for hours at a time. Good times.

 

and why dont you do it? what is stopping you from organizing a 20vs20 in ilum?

it takes 5 minuts to make an alt go on the other side contact a big guild that u see often in warzone and ask them to do something like that

 

and dont tell me the engine wont allow that because till you dont try you dont know.

 

in SWG there were guild-GM that were really GM that organized other then the site to post the raid schedule

 

GM that spent time contacting other guild and organizing fighting event

 

pug vs premade is totally BW foul

absence of world PVP it's not

Edited May 23, 2012 by Pekish

[TheronFett]

That would be a great idea, but wouldn't work due to faction imbalance.

 

Someone else already answered this for me:

 

2.) Numbers were an issue in SWG as well - the faction populations were republic-heavy very early on. This caused the imperial pvpers to develop more advanced tactics and ended up causing them to have lower quantity better quality players - which eventually resulted in faction-hoppers, and faction population balances would fluctuate.

 

The faction imbalance in SWG was 3:1 in favor of the Republic for a very long time. Years. At least on my server, the Imps had higher quality/more experienced players to make up for it. Over time, the numbers started to even out. I used to love base busting in SWG. We would organize as many players as we could, and hit them all at once, on every planet. Even with their superior numbers, the Rebels just couldn't cover that much ground.

[williambr]

and why dont you do it? what is stopping you from organizing a 20vs20 in ilum?

it takes 5 minuts to make an alt go on the other side contact a big guild that u see often in warzone and ask them to do something like that

 

and dont tell me the engine wont allow that because till you dont try you dont know.

 

Servers do organize it. Look at jung-ma, they've actually hit planet population caps. The problem is this game does not support it in any shape or form.

 

You cannot declare guild vs guild wars, you cannot specify objectives of any sort(I.e spawning a bunker or something that the other faction would attempt to destroy)

 

And then you have Ilum, there worst pvp area ever concieved and implemented in any mmo. It's the biggest piece of half arsed garbage ever thrown at gamers. Static vehicles that don't do anything?Bases that can't be attacked?Picking up munition boxes?Nothing to discourage zerging(seriously, why are the turrets on timers????) If the thread from ray was an apology for firing the development crew of ilum, i would have been ecstatic.

[DcyfR]

Um maybe some of us want to fight with more than 8 vs 8 , in swg we used to have epic battles with 40+ on each side that lasted for hours at a time. Good times.

 

Finding 40 people online lol.

[SinnedWill]

SWG did have War Zones (Called Battle Grounds) starting in 2010 and it was a maximum of 16 vs 16.

 

Both open world and BGs, in SWG, offered the same rewards. BGs had added rewards that you could purchase with BG tokens. Winners and losers got tokens.

 

SWG also introduced civil war battles at NPC cities where allot of PVP took place. PVP was always optional in the NPCCity zones so that even those only interested in PVE could participate.

 

PVP rewards were not combat gear. All gear in SWG was attained through crafting for end game, not looting. Well wearables anyway. There were other items that were sought through looting and quests that could improve combat stats through buffs. Heroics in SWG (Same as Ops / FPs) granted stat bonuses for each time it was completed up to a maximum of 10 runs.

 

Majority of open world PVP rewards were officer ranks that also granted combat skills and buffs and titles. Ranks also granted access to items you could buy from a recruiter NPC. Stuff like vehicles, bases, buffs, etc. Rank decayed and could be lost if you didn't continue to PVP to maintain rank. Combat skills and buffs would be taken away as rank decayed.

 

On top of these rewards, SWG also had leader boards for PVP. Class, Guild, individual, etc. Top guilds could unlock the ability to create teleport locations.

 

I also agree that the attractiveness of Open World PVP is that it has more dynamics than a WZ. You could be alone facing 2 peeps in an area that favors defense and if you're smart you could beat those 2 or 3 vs. one. Yes, horde play has a role in Open World PVP, however that would not discount that it could not be overcome with good tactics like using a choke point.

 

Also consider that SWG offered allot of end game content in the form of item collectables that many used to decorate their own homes and shops. Many of those items became the driving economic items as the game wained.

 

Bottom line is that SWTOR / BW has allot they can do to bring World PVP to the game. Biggest issue in my mind is that their engine lacks capability to handle this game play, atm.

 

^^ Agree with a lot of this. BG's were like WZ's here. Player-owned bases were also a great method to incorporate objective-based pvp fights in random location. Again, if they limited the total #'s for each side that are "overt"/"flagged"/"declared" per sub-region of each map, this would certainly help with game performance and population balances - any disparity between numbers should result in a decrease to rewards for kills/objective victories (though there should be a method to prevent or penalize people that switch to another instance/zone if they happen to be losing). And yes, the engine really doesn't handle well in 30v30+ combat right now.

[williambr]

Someone else already answered this for me:

 

 

 

The faction imbalance in SWG was 3:1 in favor of the Republic for a very long time. Years. At least on my server, the Imps had higher quality/more experienced players to make up for it. Over time, the numbers started to even out. I used to love base busting in SWG. We would organize as many players as we could, and hit them all at once, on every planet. Even with their superior numbers, the Rebels just couldn't cover that much ground.

 

I played on the imperial side, even outnumbered, we could coordinate a defense and hold an outpost for a week to spawn the buff's at the vendor. Easy to defend something from superior numbers.

 

And if we couldn't, we would hit different bases all over the galaxy spreading the rebels out, allowing us to destroy them randomely at our own liesure lol

[Vid-szhite]

Spontaneity. Warzones are clean and controlled and have a goal in mind, but even though this is fun, it's not the same thing as Open World PvP, which is not organized, and if it's organized at all, it's organized by players, not the game itself. Open World PvP is the Sandbox Mode of PvP, and for a lot of people, the chance that you might be randomly jumped by a player while leveling is worth the chance that you might be interrupted and die, and unlike in Warzones, no place is safe. Given overwhelming numbers, even the spawn zones and entry areas can be taken and held by players, which gives the world life and makes it seem ever-changing.

[SinnedWill]

The faction imbalance in SWG was 3:1 in favor of the Republic for a very long time. Years. At least on my server, the Imps had higher quality/more experienced players to make up for it. Over time, the numbers started to even out. I used to love base busting in SWG. We would organize as many players as we could, and hit them all at once, on every planet. Even with their superior numbers, the Rebels just couldn't cover that much ground.

 

Yep. I miss the old SWG epic battles. Population imbalance (in fabor of my enemies) is what caused me to become good at SWG pvp to begin with - and populations did gradually even out (faction-hoppers were prevalent). Mass base-busting worked great initially... until people figured out to stagger their plant-times to prevent this from happening (bases were only vulnerable for 1h each day - which is why it resulted in massive battles and numbers on both sides). SWTOR could use a similar mechanic.

[Ahhmyface]

Warzones are childsplay compared to open world pvp.

 

It's simply easier to manage a smaller set of players in a smaller area, in a timed context. There's no reactionary play. If you squish an enemy team their options are limited. In open world they could wait until you were fighting somebody else and come get their revenge, they could ambush you when you don't expect it, hell, they could go respec and come back to take you on with a different set of skills, or they could call their friends.

 

A simple analogy is the 1v1 duel. Duels are rather boring. The number of skills you need to be a good dueler are far less than you need to be a good warzone player. And likewise, the number of skills you need to be a good warzone player are less than the number you need to be a good open world pvper.

 

You still have to meet other premades, so every bit of your skill in an 8v8 warzone comes in handy, but then there's more. There's the option of picking your battles, picking your terrain, running away. Coordinating with another team. There are more components involved. There is more complexity.

 

I was a well known daoc player, so I get this. I played starcraft competitively, so I get this. The WoW generation does not. They think that throwdowns are the epitome of competition. They don't understand that there is more to competition than brute force. Their camera is zoomed in too far. They don't understand how to zoom out and see that each battle is just 1 component of the war.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Vid-szhite]

and why dont you do it? what is stopping you from organizing a 20vs20 in ilum?

it takes 5 minuts to make an alt go on the other side contact a big guild that u see often in warzone and ask them to do something like that

 

and dont tell me the engine wont allow that because till you dont try you dont know.

 

in SWG there were guild-GM that were really GM that organized other then the site to post the raid schedule

 

GM that spent time contacting other guild and organizing fighting event

 

pug vs premade is totally BW foul

absence of world PVP it's not

 

Ilum is even more fake than the Warzones. It's in a separate part of the planet that you won't see unless you're trying to PvP, and worse, the game tells you to go there (which is against the spirit of spontaneous open world PvP completely). The objectives you're fighting over aren't important at all to players (game says it's important != it's important). Even if you take the entire thing, there are no rewards or consequences. You get to watch a lightshow, that's it. The idea that any place might be vulnerable at any moment, places people need in order to get through the game, is what makes open world so much fun, and having those 40+ people randomly show up in response to your actions is way better than saying "okay let's go to Ilum so we can have EPIX BATTL LOL nobody start till we say go btw"

Edited May 23, 2012 by Vid-szhite