Enough Lucas Bashing Already!

[Aurbere]

I think the main reason people bash Lucas is because of the way he handled criticism. I like both trilogies. Because they are Star Wars.

 

1.ESB

2.ROTJ

3.ROTS

4.ANH

5.AOTC

6.TPM

 

That's where the movies rank for me, but everyone has their own opinions. Seems to me the common number 1 is ESB. Understandable of course.

[Maaruin]

I just want to pick one thing to comment upon out of all this:

 

How would you have felt if Luke, Han, Leia, or even Chewbacca had been killed in Return of the Jedi? How would you have felt if Luke had turned to the dark side at the end of ROTJ? I, and many others, would have been really upset. I cared about those characters and there is no way I would have been unaffected by what happened to them. Be honest, how did you feel when Anakin turned? How did you feel when Padme died? How did you feel when Anakin got cut to pieces? I felt.....nothing when those things happened. I didn't care. That is why Episode III cannot climb higher than 4th on the list and will always rank below the films from the original trilogy.

 

During Episode III I did care for the Jedi. I would even say that Order 66 was the saddest moment in all SW films. The Jedi are were all side characters, but distinct enough to be recognized. And then they are all surprised by betrayel and die.

 

(And there is the moment when Obi-Wan has beaten Anakin and says this "You were my brother, Anakin!" Maybe I didn't care that much for Anaki, but I did care for Obi-Wan.)

 

On my ranking Episode III is equal to Episode IV. In Episode IV the characters are just introduced and at least I didn't care as much for them as in Episode III. But the story is far superior of course, and RotS looses so much because of it's cheap action sequences.

 

 

 

Lucas bashing? I think the complaining goes over the top sometimes. Fans like to complain so much. Can't we just say: Yes, the prequals were not that good. Pity Lucas didn't do them better. Maybe point out the flaws and write alternative ideas. But in the end move on, instead of saying "Lucas destroyed Star Wars", because he didn't.

[Captain_Zone]

/grumbles "and don't even get me started on the boba fett saga"

 

He's alive in C-Canon post-RotJ, man. I just took a look at my boss's 2012 Visual Guide book here at work. Boba Fett is listed as C-Canon for all of his appearances post-RotJ except for the Infinities series.

[RDeanOU]

I just want to pick one thing to comment upon out of all this:

 

 

 

During Episode III I did care for the Jedi. I would even say that Order 66 was the saddest moment in all SW films. The Jedi are were all side characters, but distinct enough to be recognized. And then they are all surprised by betrayel and die.

 

(And there is the moment when Obi-Wan has beaten Anakin and says this "You were my brother, Anakin!" Maybe I didn't care that much for Anaki, but I did care for Obi-Wan.)

 

On my ranking Episode III is equal to Episode IV. In Episode IV the characters are just introduced and at least I didn't care as much for them as in Episode III. But the story is far superior of course, and RotS looses so much because of it's cheap action sequences.

 

 

 

Lucas bashing? I think the complaining goes over the top sometimes. Fans like to complain so much. Can't we just say: Yes, the prequals were not that good. Pity Lucas didn't do them better. Maybe point out the flaws and write alternative ideas. But in the end move on, instead of saying "Lucas destroyed Star Wars", because he didn't.

 

You cared for a bunch of Jedi that you didn't know? I'm sorry, but the average viewer has absolutely zero reason to care for any of those Jedi. At best I know their names, but I have no emotional investment in any of them. To the bulk of viewers they are just a bunch of aliens with lightsabers and we wouldn't even know they were Jedi without those.

 

The moment you mention with Obi-Wan saying that Anakin was his brother was the best moment of acting from the entire prequel series. Ewan McGregor did a fantastic job of portraying the emotions he was supposed to be feeling at the moment. However, the viewers are still disconnected from this moment because we do not feel what Obi-Wan feels. We have not really been witness to anything that would justify his reaction. We know they are close because the movie has told us they are close, but we haven't actually witnessed them becoming close like the characters in the OT.

 

If Han and Luke had been forced to fight at the end of ROTJ we wouldn't have needed Han to tell us it was tearing him up inside because we would have already been feeling it ourselves. We knew Han was like Luke's older brother because we actually got to see that relationship play out. Han wouldn't have needed to explain his emotions...we would already have been there. This is kind of my exact problem. We have to be constantly told how the characters feel in the prequels because there is zero effort to make us feel what they do. It's poor filmmaking plain and simple.

 

When you have to explicitly tell the viewer what the characters are feeling ("Anakin, you're breaking my heart" etc.) you have done a terrible job of making your movie. A good filmmaker never has to do this. They just let the emotions play out for the audience to see and rely on their storytelling to give the viewer the context to understand the emotions they are witnessing.

Edited May 22, 2012 by RDeanOU

[Eillack]

I never bashed that poor man...well figuratively speaking "poor."

 

Trolls just wish SW was made for them.

[RevanKnight]

Is anyone else tired of all the Lucas bashing?

 

I am.

[RevanKnight]

Trolls just wish SW was made for them.

 

Well said.

[RDeanOU]

I never bashed that poor man...well figuratively speaking "poor."

 

Trolls just wish SW was made for them.

 

I think people just wish the prequels had been made with some skill, subtlety, or depth. They had none of these things.

[Captain_Zone]

I think people just wish the prequels had been made with some skill, subtlety, or depth. They had none of these things.

 

^^^This right here!

[Arrys]

from a stopry perspective the entire series of six is an incredibly well done archetypal progression of the hero anakin/darth.

 

From a film perspective the gritty level of special effects that were so far ahead of everyone else in their day made the first movies more special to me. Living in the middle of a cold war I think also added to the feel of relevance of the movies.

 

The polished everyone has caught up storylines of the first three movies sequentially is also eroded simply from time delay and having matured as a person. When your 30+ anakin's childhood is yawn boring. From an overall cohesion of the story perspective it is however important.

[Jaavik]

1. Lucas has way too much disdain for his own fanbase for us to stop railing him.

 

I think this viewpoint comes from a SEVERE lack of understanding of the man...

 

Actually, Lucas has had MUCH more respect for his fanbase than his fanbase had for him. I've been a hardcore Star Wars fan since the beginning. I haven't been happy with everything he's done, but overall, his work has been a HUGE influence on my life.

 

You say that Lucas has no respect for his fanbase, but Lucas does what he does because he loves doing it. He's said himself that he's made enough money in his lifetime that he can fail for the rest of his career if he wanted to. He know the Star Wars fans love the story and the characters, so he keeps it going.

 

The problem is the fanbase starts to get represented by the spoiled, entitled vocal minority that get out there and overly criticize every little thing he's done and act like complete tools by saying the meanest possible crap about him they can think of. So now, he's beginning to question if it's worth it to him to do anymore.

 

So when people get onto forums and websites and start talking about what a monster they think he is because he "screwed up Star Wars", it's because these twits think that they are entitled to something that they aren't. Many of us LOVE Star Wars. In this, we take the bad with the good because it's fun.

 

If it isn't fun to you anymore (not YOU specifically), then move on and stop acting like it's something that belongs to you.

 

2. Lucas can be thanked for the initial creative spark for the first three movies, but it took a team to make those movies. Especially his producers. They moderated his vision and kept everything from getting out of control. By the prequels, Lucas had pretty much disposed of anyone who disagreed with him on what the movies should be, and it showed.

 

Star Wars has always been precisely what he has wanted it to be.

 

Occasionally, he will change it, either because he was limited by technology of the time, or he just wants it to BE something else. It's always been his... it doesn't belong to, or is under the control of ANYONE ELSE. Nobody, producers or studio heads, have been able to "keep him under control", and if you think that, I'd advise you to watch some of the "making of" documentaries again. He fought Studios, Unions, all sorts of people to make what he wanted the way he wanted it to be. When he wasn't able to get the visual effects he wanted done by other entities, he INVENTED ways to do it.

 

All this being said, the guy isn't infallible. I've been pretty upset about changes he's made with his movies. I never minded things being added, but I always disliked things being completely altered (Greedo shooting first, the "Noooooo!" at the end of Jedi, etc.). I don't always like his decisions, but I have the ultimate respect for the man. He's had a type of success in his lifetime that no other filmmaker has ever been able to duplicate.

 

Many of the fanboys wouldn't be as upset if George would just release an unaltered edit of the original trilogy. But George Lucas is essentially the ultimate independent filmmaker. He's not going to cave to anyone else's "demands" of what to do with HIS property. The harder everyone pushes, the less likely it will ever happen.

 

Just like so many other aspects of our society, once someone has made a successful career, suddenly he is someone who owes US something and since he isn't "toeing the line fanboy line" and giving us what we demand, he needs to be "put in his place".

[Captain_Zone]

Star Wars has always been precisely what he has wanted it to be.

 

This is the part where I have to disagree with you. If Star Wars had really been what he wanted it to be, the 2004 DVD retcons never would have happened. They were annoying, and he did them to ANH and RotJ more than ESB, from what I saw:

 

1. Han shot. Turned into Greedo shot/missed and Han shot back. Completely ruined the old story about how Han Solo, a ruthless and self-absorbed drug smuggler, could find a cause to believe in and change into a real hero. That initial scene gave us a lot of insight into his character. That he was willing to kill in cold blood.

 

2. The fluff scenes in Jabba's palace. There was no need for that, tbh. It just turned a scene that was just right into a painfully long scene.

 

3. The Sarlacc with a beak.... Ok, maybe. He may have tried it once with animatronics, but it didn't work? So when the CG came up to where he wanted it to be, he used that instead?

 

4. The NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!!!! as Vader tossed Palpatine into the reactor shaft. WTH???? Didn't we have ENOUGH Frankenvader in Episode III at the end? o0

 

5. Oh, and my all time least favorite: Replacing Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen as Anakin's Force Ghost at the very end of RotJ. That one is a firm "You have GOT to be kidding me!" right there.

 

What it boils down to is this: Yes, he has the right to change the movies. But, he should also release the ORIGINALS alongside the retcons... err remakes to show how much they have changed over the years.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[Kaedusz]

I dont even understand all the movies talk.The story in the movies is just terrible and full of cliches.The story in Kotor 1 and 2 ,and everything that happens before the kotor and tor games is the best part of star wars.

 

Exile of the dark jedi

founding of the sith order

jedi civil war

great galactic war

exar kun

great hyperspace war

mandalorian wars

Kreia

 

The movies are just terrible compared to that.

 

Yes the movies gave start to the star wars franchise,but they are so bad its unbelivable.Its not even worth argueing about the story in the movies.They are all equaly bad ,the only good thing about the movies is the lightsaber duels in episodes 1 , 2 and 3.

I wished at the end of episode 6 that palpatine just kill vader,kill luke and be done with it.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kaedusz

[Jaavik]

This is the part where I have to disagree with you. If Star Wars had really been what he wanted it to be, the 2004 DVD retcons never would have happened.

 

You took one sentence out of my post and ignored the other things I had to say.

 

I completely agreed with you about the changes,

 

What my point was when I say that the movies were "always what he wanted them to be" was the sheer fact that he DID make changes when he wanted to. If he wanted to make it where Han didn't shoot first, he changed it. He wanted the image of young Anakin as a ghost at the end of RoTJ, he did it; Not because anyone at the studio, or the producers, or the fans wanted it, but because HE wanted it.

 

Nobody "takes control" of his films or "reigns him in" and never has. Not in the Original Trilogy, and NOT in the Prequels. He's an independent filmmaker and he calls all the shots with his intellectual property. The idea that the Prequels were because he got "too big' to listen to the other people working with him is crap...he's always been that way.

 

I'm not saying I think it's what SHOULD be done. I hated some of the changes and I'm really disappointed that Lucas doesn't just release an unaltered "theatrical release" version on the original trilogy. They are a part of movie history and I think it's a REALLY poor decision on his part to keep tweaking them.

[Mordegrus]

I dont even understand all the movies talk.The story in the movies is just terrible full of cliches.The story in Kotor 1 and 2 ,and everything that happens before the kotor and tor games is the best part of star wars.

 

Exile of the dark jedi

founding of the sith order

jedi civil war

great galactic war

exar kun

great hyperspace war

 

The movies are just terrible compared to that.

 

Couldn't have said it better (except that I loved the Original Triology)

That's why we are playing SWTOR.

The storyline is much better than the Prequels.

But that is just my opinion.

I don't want to be a, "Lucas Basher", and I certainly don't want to upset, or offend anyone.

[Jaavik]

Couldn't have said it better (except that I loved the Original Triology)

That's why we are playing SWTOR.

The storyline is much better than the Prequels.

But that is just my opinion.

I don't want to be a, "Lucas Basher", and I certainly don't want to upset, or offend anyone.

 

I agree with you on the stories in The Old republic being good.

 

I just look at it in a way that The Original Trilogy, Prequel Trilogy, Old republic, etc aren't in competition with one another. The stories are no better or worse because it's all subjective. Everyone has their own opinions. The stories aren't better or worse, they are simply different stories. it's all Star Wars...

[EnsignSorrow]

Who cares if people make fun of Lucas. He must be doing something right, or no one would even bother talking about him.

 

In fact, any time you do something great, or create something great you will receive the most flak. That is what divides the winners, and the losers. Success isn't afraid of failure.

[GusVIII]

Are you 12 or something or just have very bad taste in films to think Revenge of the Sith was good.

 

What are you blind? Anyone who enjoys a good epic knows that Revenge of the Sith was a great film, despite a few minor flaws. Most people who've seen the movie thought the movie was great. That much is not going to change. None of the Star Wars movies were bad, the only one that came close to being bad was the Phantom Menace, and that movie was just meh. Attack of the Clones was good, but not great. That's why those two are on the bottom of my list. Unlike the bashers I don't let an illogical hatred of Lucas impede my judgement.

 

i didn't hate PT and i actually liked episode 3 alot. however lucas's attitude at the criticism he got, the childish manner he says hes not making anymore films, and when he dies there will be no more films and its all the starwars fans fault.

 

sorry i'm not suddenly going to forget that

 

/grumbles "and don't even get me started on the boba fett saga"

 

I don't think that that's the reason why he chose not to make any more SW movies. I pretty sure he said that his reason was because he wanted to focus more on television. And I think it's pretty evident that Lucas knows how to make good television. Look at the Young Indiana Jones series. Look at the current Clone Wars Series, I thought it was going to suck. My God was I wrong, one of the best shows on TV. If you want to know what Lucas' role in the series is just read this:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29#Production

 

And there's still a future live action series to look forward to.

[Velaran]

@Jaavik I don't think Lucas is a monster, and I don't really hate him. I just think he's a filmmaker who has too much control of his franchise, and absolutely detests criticism of any kind. Now, on their own, those two traits are fine for a filmmaker to have, but put them together, (and add in a DIFFICULT fanbase) and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

What are you blind? Anyone who enjoys a good epic knows that Revenge of the Sith was a great film, despite a few minor flaws. Most people who've seen the movie thought the movie was great. That much is not going to change. None of the Star Wars movies were bad, the only one that came close to being bad was the Phantom Menace, and that movie was just meh. Attack of the Clones was good, but not great. That's why those two are on the bottom of my list. Unlike the bashers I don't let an illogical hatred of Lucas impede my judgement.

 

 

 

I don't think that that's the reason why he chose not to make any more SW movies. I pretty sure he said that his reason was because he wanted to focus more on television. And I think it's pretty evident that Lucas knows how to make good television. Look at the Young Indiana Jones series. Look at the current Clone Wars Series, I thought it was going to suck. My God was I wrong, one of the best shows on TV. If you want to know what Lucas' role in the series is just read this:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29#Production

 

And there's still a future live action series to look forward to.

 

1. ROTS was an okay movie, better then the other two, that's for sure. Some things about the movie just didn't bring it up to the level of the OT.

 

Personally, I thought AotC was worse then TPM, but as always YMMV.

 

2. That doesn't excuse his ban on any SW movies after his death. That's spite, plane and simple.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Velaran

[Captain_Zone]

You took one sentence out of my post and ignored the other things I had to say.

 

I completely agreed with you about the changes,

 

What my point was when I say that the movies were "always what he wanted them to be" was the sheer fact that he DID make changes when he wanted to. If he wanted to make it where Han didn't shoot first, he changed it. He wanted the image of young Anakin as a ghost at the end of RoTJ, he did it; Not because anyone at the studio, or the producers, or the fans wanted it, but because HE wanted it.

 

Nobody "takes control" of his films or "reigns him in" and never has. Not in the Original Trilogy, and NOT in the Prequels. He's an independent filmmaker and he calls all the shots with his intellectual property. The idea that the Prequels were because he got "too big' to listen to the other people working with him is crap...he's always been that way.

 

I'm not saying I think it's what SHOULD be done. I hated some of the changes and I'm really disappointed that Lucas doesn't just release an unaltered "theatrical release" version on the original trilogy. They are a part of movie history and I think it's a REALLY poor decision on his part to keep tweaking them.

 

Not to mention the fact that he testified before Congress in 1988 to preserve films in their original format, and trying to enact a law that would have forbade him from doing those revisions to his movies. Guess it's a good thing for him that Congress didn't take his and Spielberg's advice.

 

In short, he's a complete hypocrite.

[maxetius]

He respected his fanbase, at one point. Now, he hates them so much that he has taken steps to ensure that Star Wars as we know it will die with him.

 

Epic win for him.

[GusVIII]

He respected his fanbase, at one point. Now, he hates them so much that he has taken steps to ensure that Star Wars as we know it will die with him.

 

Epic win for him.

 

Seriously, where and when did he say this stuff?

[passio]

Agree totally.

 

And to the OP....i stopped taking you seriously when you rated RotS as the 2nd best film of the franchise.

 

The fact is that without the support and the money that the fans have spent on everything star wars related, Lucas wouldn`t be anywhere.

To not allow the fans to have the original films in their original format because he feels that he knows what is best for us by adding fluff and diluting the films to justify being lazy with his script-writing of the prequels and palming it off as making it "rhyme" with the originals shows complete and utter disdain for what the fans like.

 

Unfortunately the sheeple will continue to throw money at Lucas meaning that we will never get what we truelly want which is the films that we all grew up with and loved, just the way they were.

That isn`t an unreasonable request. George`s ego wouldn`t allow it though, cos we don`t know what we really want right?

 

Lucas doesn`t get all the blame a lot of it goes on the popcorn munching sheep that throw money at people that are incapable of writing any meaningful dialogue and are unable to create anything that doesn`t involve flashing effects and explosions. These are the same people that keep MICHAEL BAY in a job.

 

Btw, no one is above criticism for what they release to the public domain......myself or yourself included.

[Aurbere]

Agree totally.

 

And to the OP....i stopped taking you seriously when you rated RotS as the 2nd best film of the franchise.

 

The fact is that without the support and the money that the fans have spent on everything star wars related, Lucas wouldn`t be anywhere.

To not allow the fans to have the original films in their original format because he feels that he knows what is best for us by adding fluff and diluting the films to justify being lazy with his script-writing of the prequels and palming it off as making it "rhyme" with the originals shows complete and utter disdain for what the fans like.

 

Unfortunately the sheeple will continue to throw money at Lucas meaning that we will never get what we truelly want which is the films that we all grew up with and loved, just the way they were.

That isn`t an unreasonable request. George`s ego wouldn`t allow it though, cos we don`t know what we really want right?

 

Lucas doesn`t get all the blame a lot of it goes on the popcorn munching sheep that throw money at people that are incapable of writing any meaningful dialogue and are unable to create anything that doesn`t involve flashing effects and explosions. These are the same people that keep MICHAEL BAY in a job.

 

Btw, no one is above criticism for what they release to the public domain......myself or yourself included.

 

While I agree that Lucas has alienated the fans. I just have one question. If you hate Lucas so much, why do you play this game? And if you don't play this game, why are you here to bash Lucas? This is a serious question. I'm not trying to troll you or anyone. I wonder this when I see people bashing Lucas.

[Captain_Zone]

While I agree that Lucas has alienated the fans. I just have one question. If you hate Lucas so much, why do you play this game? And if you don't play this game, why are you here to bash Lucas? This is a serious question. I'm not trying to troll you or anyone. I wonder this when I see people bashing Lucas.

 

Because George didn't write or direct it. Because BioWare are master storytellers who can keep me entertained with nearly all of the class storylines here. Consular is the only exception. I quote my Inquistor when I say YAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN to the Jedi Consular story. I can barely get off Tython before I'm bored out of my mind with it. *shrug*