Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Johnnydee]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

 

Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism.

 

The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is...

 

Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk?

 

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

-

EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.

 

EDIT UPDATE:

-

During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG!

 

People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game!

 

I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly.

 

 

 

Idealistically speaking recount is a great addon that can improve the performance of all of the players in the game. In my 4 years experience of playing WOW, realistically speaking and in it's practical application, recount is a horrible tool. Players tend to focus on DPS and DPS alone at the cost of even standing in high damage attacks in order to flex their epeen's through recount and giving their healer an aneurism, expecting the healer to heal through it.

 

Your point of recount allowing bad players to realize they are not the elite damage dealers they believe themselves to be is also inaccurate. Bad players, by in large, tend to think that they are great players despite all evidence to the contrary. In my experience the highest DPS players I have come across have been the most humble and less concerned with the numbers than the under performers.

 

My hope for this game is that success in group environments will depend more on understanding and reacting to fight mechanics and not trying to "top the charts yo". You don't need recount to understand that your health was low for a long time and it resulted in your death. Ask the healer why you didn't get a heal. If the healer was healing others or was low on resources then it was an acceptable death. If the healer keeps letting the same thing happen and you can see that your group mates are not taking large amounts of avoidable damage then it's time to address the issue with the healer. The same reasoning can be applied to tank's and damage dealers. If you are having difficulty with an encounter with a little bit of attention to detail you can identify the problem or problems.

 

The only way that I would be for a recount style addon being used in the game would be as a personal combat log, allowing someone to see only their own performance. This won't eliminate epeen flexing and it's whole mentality that has a negative impact on the game but it would certainly limit it. That's my 2 cents and I have 4 years of WOW raiding experience to form my perspective on this topic.

[Wrevan]

Yes. I'd like a native first-party system for viewing and charting extensive combat data.

Too lazy to write out reasons.

[Wrevan]

Actually I'll be the person who is able to watch meters, do more damage than you, and react more quickly than you, because im good.

The game hasn't even LAUNCHED and already there's baboons trying to thump their chests. pff

[Israel]

People need to understand that Recount is simply a tool. A great tool. But it's a tool nonetheless. Edited December 15, 2011 by Israel

[Lugare]

I would support this if it ONLY showed you damage and nobody else's damage.

 

Recount caused ridiculous problems in WoW and i would rather that not happen in SWTOR.

[SchwartzMaster]

I would support this if it ONLY showed you damage and nobody else's damage.

 

Recount caused ridiculous problems in WoW and i would rather that not happen in SWTOR.

 

Pugging caused ridiculous problems in wow. If you don't want to play with those you would label as "jerks" then please play with friends OR play with people on your own gear and skill level, and don't be surprised when people don't wish to carry you.

[RamataKahn]

BTW? I'm still waiting for you to post those links on optimal rotations for EverQuest & Age of Conan? You know the ones you asserted a month or more ago actually existed?

 

How would that have to do with anything???

[Yasuragi]

Personally I don't want them. But that's just me, I've done my share of raiding and watched 10 utter nubs face roll 4 bosses in ULD without a single idea of what we were going to do. Meters mean squat. They can be helpful to those wishing to min max and or hard core raid but they can be abused by many more for to many reasons to list.

 

Recount, Gear score, Omen, all of them, keep em out, make the player think, not think for them.

[RamataKahn]

Personally I don't want them. But that's just me, I've done my share of raiding and watched 10 utter nubs face roll 4 bosses in ULD without a single idea of what we were going to do. Meters mean squat. They can be helpful to those wishing to min max and or hard core raid but they can be abused by many more for to many reasons to list.

 

Recount, Gear score, Omen, all of them, keep em out, make the player think, not think for them.

 

Addons don't think or play the game for you, and only bad players think that they do.

[Arodtwelve]

I see this from pro recount players ..."so I can help others with their rotation...", Two things, offering unsolicited "help" is very condescending, and if someone did ask for help, why ask you as you need an addon to play the game properly.

[AlpsStranger]

I see this from pro recount players ..."so I can help others with their rotation...", Two things, offering unsolicited "help" is very condescending, and if someone did ask for help, why ask you as you need an addon to play the game properly.

 

We need an addon to analyze the game properly. Not everyone wants to play in an innumerate haze.

[Aunama]

How would that have to do with anything???

 

When someone tells me a lie, I call them on it.

 

Maybe you should have been reading the entire thread from Israel's OP til now?

 

And I agree, there will be dps meters at some point, and I'll be more then happy myself to see them. They've always been useful to me for improving my game play. I don't agree with Israel on their implementation, or the 'WoW-ish' direction he argues for this game to take.

[RamataKahn]

I see this from pro recount players ..."so I can help others with their rotation...", Two things, offering unsolicited "help" is very condescending, and if someone did ask for help, why ask you as you need an addon to play the game properly.

 

It's funny to see ant-addon people call others condescending or arrogant, when they are the worst about that.

[RamataKahn]

When someone tells me a lie, I call them on it.

 

Maybe you should have been reading the entire thread from Israel's OP til now?

 

And I agree, there will be dps meters at some point, and I'll be more then happy myself to see them. They've always been useful to me for improving my game play. I don't agree with Israel on their implementation, or the 'WoW-ish' direction he argues for this game to take.

 

So you are saying there no optimal rotation in those games?

 

Full addon implementation is not WoWish at all, it's smart.

[gangbot]

talking to people against addons is like talking to a brick wall.

[RamataKahn]

talking to people against addons is like talking to a brick wall.

 

I'd actually rather talk to a brick wall, at least it's not condescending, arrogant, or rude.

[Aunama]

So you are saying there no optimal rotation in those games?

 

Full addon implementation is not WoWish at all, it's smart.

 

No, there are no 'optimal rotations' in the sense of WoW FoTM cookie-cutter spec rotations.

 

EQ is purely auto-attack with some enhancement to combat and support skills through the use of 'Alternate Advancement' abilities that you can start to acquire at level 51.

 

AoC doesn't have cookie-cutter specs and rotations. Depending on what feats you take in your spec trees, you can 'optimize' your rotation though for the most dps/heals if you choose to do the research on how you've spec'd your toon. (And even then the nature of an encounter may well change what is 'optimal.') There is no 'one best' spec for each class, though there are required abilities in the trees for some of the classes, that you may need to defeat various raid and 'Heroic' mode encounters.

 

As to the 'smart' part of your stated opinion, I'll just agree to disagree. I have several adjectives come to mind, and 'smart' isn't on the list.

[HACKstock]

i want healing meters

[entropyrl]

I dont like DPS meters because then all people care about is DPS and dont do proper CC, off healing, buffing, deffing ect.....

 

So I find things fail even more because people just want to be top DPS and the rest gets ignored and you wipe......

 

DPS is not always the most important part of winning.

[Vindicit]

Who ever says no to dps meters are fking ********. Developers have their own dps meters and its exactly how they tweak encounters. You cant just sit there bashing a boss while pressing 1 skill while the encounter moves at a snails pace because there is no dps requirement and people just try to move out of the fire. Without a dps requirement there is no need, there is no DRIVE to improve your character. Which means there is no need to develop new and harder encounters that give new and better gear because everyone already has the gear to kill bosses before even stepping into a new instance.

 

Without dps/healing requirements developing new encounters is pointless. Developers have their internal numbers, we need ours.

[Macfergusson]

I dont like DPS meters because then all people care about is DPS and dont do proper CC, off healing, buffing, deffing ect.....

 

So I find things fail even more because people just want to be top DPS and the rest gets ignored and you wipe......

 

DPS is not always the most important part of winning.

 

No, that is not caused by Meter tools. That is caused by bad players. There's a pretty big difference.

 

This thread is full of people who blame guns for killings instead of the people pulling the trigger.

[Colobulous]

I want personal choice to make the decision, not someone doing the math somewhere else.

 

That is not compatible with game mechanics. Somebody somewhere else HAS to work up a system of math for it to work, otherwise, what do you think you're going to get?

 

A guy saying "Hey, I want my punch to do super-mega awesome damage" while another guy says "Uh-uh, my Indomitable shield blocks all super-mega awesome damage" ?

 

You're kinda suggesting something that just won't work.

 

I've always considered rotation a weakness. Locking your mind into a set of pushing the same buttons over and over again is insane. Might as well just put a macro on and eat some popcorn.

 

So...offer an alternative. One that isn't as completely impossible as what you just said.

 

A rotation is a reaction to a set of information, you can make it more complex, more reactive, but that comes with some risks. It's like playing music, there's a reason why they use patterns, and regular themes. It works.

 

 

Yeah, I've heard this before. I stand by my opinion though. You lose the ability to react to changes quickly when your mind is stuck in a rotation. It's also very boring. I'd honestly rather be a piss poor player than have to mindlessly follow a rotation like a trained monkey.

 

In reality, your reacting to something is just another form of rotation. If X, do Y. If A, do B. That's how it works. You are rehearsing something, whether you realize it or not.

 

Whatever, I'll play the way I want, you play the way you want. I just hope we don't have to group up someday, because then we'll both end up dead while you're complaining and not playing.

 

It'll probably be you, who is complaining that your personal choice to talk with the Bridge Troll isn't being met.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Colobulous

[GalacticKegger]

Who ever says no to dps meters are fking ********. Developers have their own dps meters and its exactly how they tweak encounters. You cant just sit there bashing a boss while pressing 1 skill while the encounter moves at a snails pace because there is no dps requirement and people just try to move out of the fire. Without a dps requirement there is no need, there is no DRIVE to improve your character. Which means there is no need to develop new and harder encounters that give new and better gear because everyone already has the gear to kill bosses before even stepping into a new instance.

 

Without dps/healing requirements developing new encounters is pointless. Developers have their internal numbers, we need ours.

Voice acted questgiver interaction and story driven character progression will continue being SWTOR's very foundation from which all other gameplay elements (heroics, flashpoints and operations, etc.) are derived. Meters are handy but this is not WoW, and for what the game is designed around most combat mods just aren't critical to the game's long term success.

 

History lesson: previous titles from BioWare (not Blizzard, not Turbine, not Sony, not Cryptic, not Oblivian, not NCsoft, not Codemasters or Bethesda) such as the KOTOR & Mass Effect series evolved into SWTOR the way Warcraft and Diablo evolved into WoW. They are two completely different animals with two completely different progression models.

 

BioWare's core customer base of Star Wars gaming fans who have been dining aboard The Old Republic evolution train since 2003 (a year before WoW even launched) prefer it just the way it is. Their expectation is for storylines to continue through expansion sequels much like the original games and movies did. Story above all else is how BW & LA have always done it and they've been extremely straightforward about this being their vision for the game. Flashpoints and operations will of course be an important part of TOR's growth. They just won't drive it.

Edited December 16, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[suunio]

no, because I had enough of that Min/Max mantra from previous MMOs

 

 

I was saying that WOW had too many garbage stats. For example, if a DK wants to swing an sword as hard has possible he needs just the right balance of:

 

-Strength

-Melee Hit

-Expertise

-Mastery

-Haste

-Crit

-Attack power

(and since it's a DK)

-Spell Hit

 

Do we really need to RESEARCH and MANAGE 7 separate stats to improve "swing sword"? They might as well add in "air resistance" and "humidity" in there.

 

I don't want this to happen to swtor and this is why I say no to recount.

Edited December 15, 2011 by suunio

[Kunitsukami]

As my old raid leader used to say: DPS meters don't work because it's all people focus on, then you get extremely dumb players who do a lot of DPS but are terrible with the actual tactics and flexibility of each fight and then die early.... and you can't do DPS when you're dead.