Healers - James Ohlen speaks out?!

[Razot]

James Ohlen L2Develop..

I don't even play sorc/sage, its not about resource management its about survivability.

Its more about DPS being stupid crazy than it is about the actual mechanics of the class.

The subs and long wz q's kinda speaks for itself but ya keep on going brother i enjoy the show!

Edited May 17, 2012 by Razot

[vimm]

James Ohlen is correct; well done in sticking to what you believe.

[Mhorlok]

Ohlen is spot on everything is as intended - and since everything is so spot on the 25% of all subscribers dropping is due to it being an Election year...

 

Makes perfect sense...

[JustTray]

If they weren't embarrassed by the "metrics" they would share them with us and their findings based on them.

 

Since they don't, it's safe to assume it's all BS, being misinterpreted by noobs who don't even play the game (devs).

[Saltydogg]

i have healed 4 years as a priest (multi gladiator) in wow and i can say that post 1.2 its harder to heal as a seer in swtor when you are facing good players.

 

the rundown is:

-seer facing scrubs is more trivial than disc priest facing wow scrubs (even scrubs DKs in wow will make your life hell with necrotic strike).

 

- seer facing GOOD AND GEARED swtor pvpers is harder than disc facing 2k guys in wow arena.

 

the main reason is lacklustre quick heal and lack of survivability.

 

when you are facing good players they can kill you as you kite them with the new expertise system just because your heals are too low when compared to their weak dps abilities.

 

for example the ranged free attacks from a well geared concealment operative hit harder than my strongest hots (rejuvenation).

 

so they basically open up on you take a chunk of ur health and u kite them while they slowly kill you with inadequade attacks because your MAIN heals are even more inadequate.

 

make no mistake even a well geared operative will have the world of trouble to kill me (most of them cant). still its frustating to kite and realise that their rifle shots deal more damage than my rejuvenation hots.

 

the bottom line is that our survivability is so low that even when we outplay the dps we have to put so much effort in staying alive that i miss helping my team more, sometimes i feel like a burden, i feel i help more when im playing with my assault vanguard.

 

ps: also, mr james ohlen please be informed that no serious pvp seer uses force sacrifice to regen mana, we are all hybrids, either tele (disturbance spam) or balance (rock spam) hybrids.

 

I love how the Commando is not even mentioned. NO kiting ability, one insta heal, one shield with a cool down, one cc break, one instant cc ability, two main single target heals one with a cooldown and why did we get Fuc*ing KOLTO BOMB hits one extra person. Sorcs and Seers still tear up the heals numbers. Commando Medics however have been shelved and mostlikely will be collecting dust for a very very long time

[signahead]

To me, it sounds like there's a huge disconnect between Mr. Ohlen (along with the rest of the development team), and the PvP community. He's talking about resource management, which to me has never been an issue in PvP, while the community is talking about survivability. Some healers think survivability is too low. Some DPSers think it's too high. But no one outside of the design team seems to be concerned about the state of a healer's energy, force or ammo bar. It's like listening to two different conversations, on two entirely different topics, at once.

 

Either the design team is being evasive for reasons I don't understand, they aren't listening to the community, or they are very poor at communicating. No matter what the answer is, it does nothing to help their relationship with their players. They may get a few "hell yeah!"s from people who are already inclined to agree with them, but I'm guessing that a lot of the PvP community sees comments like Ohlen's and wonders "What the hell is he talking about?" or, even worse, "Are they listening at all?"

 

I'm also concerned that the design team's comments seem to pit one part of the player community against another. My server's PvP community (at least on the Republic side) already bickers enough without encouragement from the developers. When Mr. Ohlen or Mr. Zoeller makes statements that appear to be intended to "win" the conversation rather than to engage the community, it just encourages more bad behavior from the players.

[Leiralei]

So now bad Sages get to feel like good Commandos, and good Sages are still decent. Excuse me while I play a tiny, tiny violin for you.

[sauerkraut]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

 

In PvP, there are ways to counter the health hit you take in managing your resources, and short of telling players what to do and when to do it, we're comfortable with how things are playing right now

 

Are you kidding me? Sage spec here. Lets see anyone (James included) explain to me how I can 'Counter the Health hit'?

 

Get Attacked - Pop Force Shield - BOOM its gone along with about 30% of my health -

 

ok lets try CC that SoB for some breathing Room - Lift cast - BOOM another 20% of my health and they broke the mezz...

 

Hmm lets try my other Mezz (its only 4 seconds but it might be enough) - BOOM cast.. WHUT? no effect? BOOM another 20% gone.. Drop a Med Pack fast.. crap Mezzed by them, OK use my ONLY break mezz - that's it free... WHAT Mezzed again.... Thats it may as well just wait since I cannot break the mezz spams nor can I heal as everytime I start a heal cast it gets interrupted...

 

So not only can we not deal any damage (since all abilities require at least 1-2 seconds to cast and these are interrupted by any other class just hitting us) we cannot mitigate any damage, we cannot shield ourselves from any damage, our crowd control abilities are on 2 minute cool down, our break mezz ability is on a 2 minute countdown, our melee skills are pointless.

 

Cannot even try to run away as JK simply jump to us stunning us, one of the other classes simply pulls us to them and anyone behind cover is immune to any of our CC abilities or stuns and can 2 shot us before we even look at them.

 

PvP is not for everybody, you are one of them. You were able to function in pvp only because you played a super OP class. God mode is over so are the bad players

[syntxerr]

PvP is not for everybody, you are one of them. You were able to function in pvp only because you played a super OP class. God mode is over so are the bad players

 

I'm sorry but this is a ******** comment.

 

There is a lot in between godmode and crapmode. And currently Sages are in crapmode, no question. Everything else is a lie. Unless of course you believe it is great game design and fair and fun to have a support class being unable to kill an attacker and at the same time unable to even survive him.

 

Oh running away half of the match? Yes, great fun and super useful for your team.

 

Seriously people, stop talking nonesense. Play a Sage healer in 50s bracket and come back to comment.

[Blloodbane]

Man the egos lol

 

There is about 50 to 75 people that post here, and there 1.3 MILLION subscribers.... And I love the comments like the whole community this or that like people speak for them. Yes the 400k sub lost yes those were all pvp people too huh? Seriously people need to check their egos and exagerations.

[Derian]

I'm sorry but this is a ******** comment.

 

There is a lot in between godmode and crapmode. And currently Sages are in crapmode, no question. Everything else is a lie. Unless of course you believe it is great game design and fair and fun to have a support class being unable to kill an attacker and at the same time unable to even survive him.

 

Oh running away half of the match? Yes, great fun and super useful for your team.

 

Seriously people, stop talking nonesense. Play a Sage healer in 50s bracket and come back to comment.

 

If it makes you feel better as a Sentinel I spend more than half the match chasing people.

[Altruismo]

If it makes you feel better as a Sentinel I spend more than half the match chasing people.

 

Yeah, but when you're running around you're doing full damage to every single member of his team with a 75% damage buff.

When he's running his healing drops to negative eleventy!!

See the difference!?!?!?

[Zangton]

Yeah, but when you're running around you're doing full damage to every single member of his team with a 75% damage buff.

When he's running his healing drops to negative eleventy!!

See the difference!?!?!?

 

And you have lasers coming out your eyes, and fireballs out your arse!

[Vinak]

Sorry but it is not FUN to have to rely on Another Healer to manage MY resources.

 

Sorry but it is not FUN easily being rendered useless in pvp unless my team isn't a bunch of mindless idiots. (Which tends to be every single PUG group.) I shouldn't have to run with my guild every time I wish to PVP just to be useful.

 

PvP simply isn't fun anymore....on any of my characters post 1.2.

 

Mr. Ohlen needs to learn how to play...not me.

Man the egos lol

 

There is about 50 to 75 people that post here, and there 1.3 MILLION subscribers.... And I love the comments like the whole community this or that like people speak for them. Yes the 400k sub lost yes those were all pvp people too huh? Seriously people need to check their egos and exagerations.

queue times are much, much longer post 1.2...and I am on one of the more populated servers...which used to have a pretty active pvp community. We're talking about mere minutes queue times....as imperials at most hours of the day.

 

Queue times are pretty bad now. 10+ minutes at prime time.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Vinak

[Derian]

Sorry but it is not FUN to have to rely on Another Healer to manage MY resources.

 

Sorry but it is not FUN easily being rendered useless in pvp unless my team isn't a bunch of mindless idiots. (Which tends to be every single PUG group.) I shouldn't have to run with my guild every time I wish to PVP just to be useful.

 

PvP simply isn't fun anymore....on any of my characters post 1.2.

 

Mr. Ohlen needs to learn how to play...not me.

 

queue times are much, much longer post 1.2...and I am on one of the more populated servers...which used to have a pretty active pvp community. We're talking about mere minutes queue times....as imperials at most hours of the day.

 

Queue times are pretty bad now. 10+ minutes at prime time.

 

Guess what...if I solo Q as a marauder I get my face turned inside out too. Imagine that. Coordinated Teamplay>* Amazing.

[Bbizzle]

I leveled my Sage to 50 over the weekend. I have recruit gear, 3 pieces of BM armor + 2 BM implants. It's almost COMICAL how BAD some of the other sages are that I see. I have 14.5k HP and I can sit there and kite WAR HERO Sentinels.

 

1. 95% of the Sages make ZERO attempt to run away from their attackers. They just sit there and take it to the face.

2. Healing Sages can remove basically every snare / slow with their dispel and they have a talent that turns Weaken Mind into a 15s 30% snare! Also, you have a 5s 50% slow as your primary snare.

3. Force Speed, Shockwave, and Force Stun are your 3 tools to get people off you. When somebody leaps to you, KNOCK THEM BACK(Check to see if they have1 or 2 lightsabers if its 1 lightsaber wait -4- seconds before knocking them. If its 2 Follow his instructions.) IMMEDIATELY! Slow them, dispel their root, and run away.

4. Line of Sight! Fake Cast! Do it! It works! I fake cast my Fast Heal and then use my channeled heal immediately.

5. Grenades! Cybertech has 8s 70% slow and 5s root grenades. They kick ***!

 

Obviously I get imploded if multiple people jump on me, but I can sure as hell make them work for it! Really other Sages are my biggest counter because of the force lightning slow I can't get out of, but come on I'm recruit geared 14.5k hp sage and it pisses me off watching these WH Sages sit there and not do anything.

 

//

 

I'm 31 in the healing tree right now, but I'm 100% freaking positive if I was that hybrid spec. Dmaster is talking about I could laugh off people trying to kill me 1v1.

 

Fixed a part =p

[MorgothQuick]

If only tank capable classes would guard the healers that are being focused, whether they're dps specced or not eh?

[Daerun]

If only tank capable classes would guard the healers that are being focused, whether they're dps specced or not eh?

 

The other day a couple of healers are calling me "nub" and other things because I don't cast guard at them and they blamed me for our lost. There is no other knight in our team so it was directed at me. I didn't say a thing in chat or even try to argue w/ them....well, the thing is..I'm a sentinel.

[Derian]

If only tank capable classes would guard the healers that are being focused, whether they're dps specced or not eh?

 

Most tank capable classes don't even use their absolutely 100% free, no negative against them taunts.

[Derian]

The other day a couple of healers are calling me "nub" and other things because I don't cast guard at them and they blamed me for our lost. There is no other knight in our team so it was directed at me. I didn't say a thing in chat or even try to argue w/ them....well, the thing is..I'm a sentinel.

 

On my Vanguard typically when I pug, most healers just stand there and get their faces beat in by melee, or run through fire, or don't heal me as I tak half of their damage for them, so why bother?

 

These same healers probably come to these boards and complain. They will get more guards if they take more responsibility for the damage incoming.

[Brittaany_Banks]

On my Vanguard typically when I pug, most healers just stand there and get their faces beat in by melee, or run through fire, or don't heal me as I tak half of their damage for them, so why bother?

 

These same healers probably come to these boards and complain. They will get more guards if they take more responsibility for the damage incoming.

 

Healers stand there and get their faces chewed off because they are either stunned, or snared.

 

IF we run through fire it is because we are trying to support the ball carrier who has gone outside of our 30m range. 1 heal, or one successful force pull can mean the difference between a score for our team, or the ball going the other way. Sages and Sorcs consistently sacrifice themselves in this WZ for the team.

 

If the healer is not healing you that is probably because we are being hyper interrupted. Any class with one stun, and one knockback can lock down a healer for a good 5-10 seconds or more. If they have interrupt help from another player it is even longer. Since the conveyance change in 1.2 made deliverance a full 2.5 second cast it is RIDICULOUSLY easy to interrupt. Our AoE heal is also on a almost 3 second cast time easily interrupted.

 

It is obvious to me you do not play a healer on any of your toons.

[syntxerr]

On my Vanguard typically when I pug, most healers just stand there and get their faces beat in by melee, or run through fire, or don't heal me as I tak half of their damage for them, so why bother?

 

These same healers probably come to these boards and complain. They will get more guards if they take more responsibility for the damage incoming.

 

Because it is absolutely pointless to try and run, LOS or whatever. You won't survive a single attacker anyway. So currently it's better to just take the beating like a man, die and get a few heals off on your teammates in the process. Oh, and dying also helps to regen the resource, which we are now losing like hell.

 

Sounds funny but it's actually quite true. When a Sentinel jumps you, there's no point in even trying to run.

 

Oh, the healer doesn't support you when you try to peel things off him? Well, that's probably because he is busy in 100% self preservation mode because of one guy hitting him and he got neither the cast time nor the resource to spare to heal you.

 

I admit, the latter is a bit exaggerated. Either way, there's a lot wrong with healing at the moment.

[Werdan]

Sorry but it is not FUN to have to rely on Another Healer to manage MY resources.

 

Sorry but it is not FUN easily being rendered useless in pvp unless my team isn't a bunch of mindless idiots. (Which tends to be every single PUG group.) I shouldn't have to run with my guild every time I wish to PVP just to be useful.

 

PvP simply isn't fun anymore....on any of my characters post 1.2.

 

Mr. Ohlen needs to learn how to play...not me.

 

queue times are much, much longer post 1.2...and I am on one of the more populated servers...which used to have a pretty active pvp community. We're talking about mere minutes queue times....as imperials at most hours of the day.

 

Queue times are pretty bad now. 10+ minutes at prime time.

 

So you basically want the devs to balance your class based on you solo queueing. Not going to happen. If I solo queue with my Marauder or Assassin, I expect to die without a dedicated group healer (not to be confused with pocket healer). If I queue with my guild/friends and have a healer, those deaths get reduced significantly. Even if I do solo queue and there happens to be a healer on my team, I do whatever I can to make sure they get the support they need (peel, taunt, guard, etc). PvP is a TEAM game. You want to blame someone, blame the bads you happen to wind up being teamed up with.

 

I'm actually happy JO made that statement as it sounds like there could be a few more "adjustments" made to healers. As it stands, Op/Scoundrel healers are still a bit overtuned. I haven't had much time playing them (mine is only L24) to put my finger on the underlying issues with them. I know their healing when someone is under 30% seems a bit much. BH/Trooper healers are by far still very much overtuned and I've had more than enough playtime with them since way back in beta. Their shields are way overpowered when combined with skills and gear set bonus. ~60% damage reduction (not counting expertise) and immune to interrupts for 15 seconds every 2 minutes is the single most OP combo in the game. Add a guard and taunt and they can laugh at you all day long (I know I have when I played my BH and Trooper).

 

I've never played a healer Sorc/Sage but speaking to and playing with a few friends who are, they seem pretty well balanced. Mind you, the ones I know well are very good players (IE they don't expect to just stand there free casting all match long). BW might be able to give them a little bit of love (as JO alluded to) but the one thing they can't fix is the user at the keyboard (yet another thing he alluded to).

[syntxerr]

If it makes you feel better as a Sentinel I spend more than half the match chasing people.

 

Putting more oil into the fire.

 

I believe this is actually fun, because the other player knows that he needs to run. And you know why he is running. And you know that when you get him he dies. So there the essential difference. Telling you, play a Seer in 50s bracket and I'm telling you, after three matches you won't even feel like anymore.

[syntxerr]

So you basically want the devs to balance your class based on you solo queueing. Not going to happen. If I solo queue with my Marauder or Assassin, I expect to die without a dedicated group healer (not to be confused with pocket healer). If I queue with my guild/friends and have a healer, those deaths get reduced significantly. Even if I do solo queue and there happens to be a healer on my team, I do whatever I can to make sure they get the support they need (peel, taunt, guard, etc). PvP is a TEAM game. You want to blame someone, blame the bads you happen to wind up being teamed up with.

 

I'm actually happy JO made that statement as it sounds like there could be a few more "adjustments" made to healers. As it stands, Op/Scoundrel healers are still a bit overtuned. I haven't had much time playing them (mine is only L24) to put my finger on the underlying issues with them. I know their healing when someone is under 30% seems a bit much. BH/Trooper healers are by far still very much overtuned and I've had more than enough playtime with them since way back in beta. Their shields are way overpowered when combined with skills and gear set bonus. ~60% damage reduction (not counting expertise) and immune to interrupts for 15 seconds every 2 minutes is the single most OP combo in the game. Add a guard and taunt and they can laugh at you all day long (I know I have when I played my BH and Trooper).

 

I've never played a healer Sorc/Sage but speaking to and playing with a few friends who are, they seem pretty well balanced. Mind you, the ones I know well are very good players (IE they don't expect to just stand there free casting all match long). BW might be able to give them a little bit of love (as JO alluded to) but the one thing they can't fix is the user at the keyboard (yet another thing he alluded to).

 

Not to interfere into your discussion there, but there is a huge difference between balancing for solo queue and balancing classes so that no class is useless and an automatic victim just because a melee DPS looked at you. You gotta have options besides trying to run. Everything else is ignorant.

 

I don't even know why I bother replying, since your comment about Scoundrels being over the top still, in this current situation just shows me that's it's useless to debate this here.

 

I've spoken to a lot of healers on my server, I have had a single one say he enjoys PVP currently, and that's a Scoundrel. They still heal, just like me, because that's what we like doing, but we're only there because we hope for change. If this doesn't happen, well, I believe there won't be many healers left in a few months.