Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[Ahhmyface]

You can't kite dots, neither can you kite ravage (enormous nonsensical range on that one to the point of warranting a bug report), neither can you kite predation. Worst of all, due to server lag, you have to tightrope walk an itty bitty line between his leap range and his melee range. Meanwhile, he's throwing his sabre at you, since you're both low by the time he pops UR. Sure, you can try to kite, but it changes nothing. He's still ****** you, and you're not damaging him.

 

It's not about 1v1, either. When any other class in the game gets focused, they die. But not the marauder. Nobody has a defensive CD that buys them a full 4 seconds more against a full teams burst. Not even close. Everybody else gets some sort of crap 25% parry chance t hat amounts to about 10% dr, making UR a 900% better defensive CD. Not to mention that the marauder has a better stealth escape than actual stealth classes, as if they didn't have enough already.

 

It's not about marauders being impossible to kill, so stop trying to change the subject. It's that it shouldn't require so much coordination to kill some scrub who can press 3 keys. A DPS class should not be as hard to kill as marauders are.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Parali
reply to bad quote

[Xerain]

As a marauder, if you're opening with your charge on a class that gets one very brief knockback, you are not playing correctly. Run into melee range, they knockback, you force charge them. Game over. They will probably not shake you again unless you are keyboard turning or they have a lot of team support/stealth.

 

You still have a knock back. They have snares and stuns and the ability to run.

 

Contrary to popular belief, ranged dps in this game has very, very few tools to maintain range. If you don't believe me, play one to 50 and pvp extensively with it. Kiting only works in games like WoW because ranged classes get snares/slows and meleers don't have a short CD 30m gap closer and AE spammable slows on demand.

 

Ranged in this game has just as many tools as every other game. Snipers have plenty of movement impairing abilities, more than my hunter did in TBC or just as many. And didn't warriors have like a 10 second cd on both their charges with a no cost 50% snare? Oh yes they did. plus they got a few 30m ranged abilities and with my tools as a hunter i could kite warriors.

 

If ranged classes in TOR had these things, I would never argue that Marauders were OP. They would need all of their survival tools.

 

Ranged classes in TOR do have these things... :|

[otherworlder]

My last word on the subject. You folks can believe me or not, but I urge you, I implore you... try out a ranged class, especially something awful like a merc. Really play the hell out of it.

 

If you can come back here after doing that and honestly say your class needs the best burst AND the best defensive CDs compared to the other ACs out there (possibly excluding Tanksins), I'll eat my hat.

 

Until you've played both, you cannot have a fair and balanced view.

 

Until ranged classes have an escape utility on as short a CD as charge/AE slow, you will eat us alive if you know what you are doing.

[Spiderbubble]

Their damage is actually not as high as a Sniper/Gunslinger or a Sorceror, and they are ranged.

 

Imagine Sniper/Sorc being the full glass cannon DPS.

*****************************************************************

Now imagine DPS geared Tanksin to be the tanky DPS

Now imagine tanks to be the tanks.

 

Marauders are where the stars are. Somewhere between a tanky DPS and a glass cannon. They can do well in damage charts because of being slightly tankier while Sniper/Sorc will die more often. Tanksin is considered so strong for the same reason: they die less often and therefore do more overall damage, but they can't burst anyone down quickly enough to make such worlds of difference.

 

Thing is, Marauders NEED defensive cooldowns or else they are useless. Just like a Sniper needs a knockback, and some snares, because they need to be able to keep people at bay.

[LiveandDieinLA]

You need to stop saying marauders have the best burst.

Powertechs, assassins, and snipers can all burst harder than marauders.

[LiveandDieinLA]

 

Until ranged classes have an escape utility on as short a CD as charge/AE slow, you will eat us alive if you know what you are doing.

 

Force wave is on a 20 second cd. if it was on the same CD as charge then Sorcs would be invicible to melee.

 

And again, marauders dont have an AoE slow. You don't even know what abilities the class has that you are crying about, L2P instead of QQing for nerfs.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Well I dont know about other Mara/Sents but unless I read my skills wrong, for Carnage, I am pretty much forced to be in Aturu form for my abilties to work. I dont switch stances.... Maybe its something I missed... do skills based on a form still work even though in another stance? I know jugs switch stances...

 

You are doing it right! It was just one of the issues I had with the 4% number.

[Xarimath]

Have you taught that MAYBE the problem is NOT in the class, maybe that now the EXPERTISE SOFT cap that there is no longer available...

 

Or maybe that, in a fight one by one the good and smart player could use Expertise Adrenal + Relic Power/Surge + Power/Surge Adrenal, all of these at the same time?

 

Have you considered that all the gear augmented could do the difference? Have you considered that a sentinel could have all the class buff playing all the classes like alts?

 

Make the sum of all of these things and maybe you could think why in 1 vs 1 Sentinels or Marauder wins every fight.

 

The problem is not the class, but the objects, stims and the expertise. If you want a fair fight the thing to nerf is the system, not the class.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Xarimath

[Xerain]

My last word on the subject. You folks can believe me or not, but I urge you, I implore you... try out a ranged class, especially something awful like a merc. Really play the hell out of it.

 

If you can come back here after doing that and honestly say your class needs the best burst AND the best defensive CDs compared to the other ACs out there (possibly excluding Tanksins), I'll eat my hat.

 

Until you've played both, you cannot have a fair and balanced view.

 

Until ranged classes have an escape utility on as short a CD as charge/AE slow, you will eat us alive if you know what you are doing.

 

Leveling a sniper right now, going lethality with it at 50, and want to make a pyro merc. Both classes with the specs look pretty mobile from someone who knows how to actually kite. Both classes with specs have the tools.

 

marauders do not have the best burst, that's probably pyro pt's.

 

I've played multiple roles and classes in MMO's and you should be able to compare those classes to other classes from other video games and see their strengths and weaknesses.

[svartalfimposter]

Have you taught that MAYBE the problem is NOT in the class but maybe that now the EXPERTISE SOFT cap there is no more?

 

Or maybe that, in a fight, you could use Expertise Adrenal + Relic Power/Surge + Power/Surge Adrenal, all of these at the same time?

 

Have you considered that all the gear augmented could do the difference? Have you considered that a sentinel could have all the class buff playing all the classes like alts?

 

Make the sum of all of these things and maybe you could think why in 1 vs 1 Sentinels or Marauder wins every fight.

 

The problem is not the class, but the objects, stims and the expertise. If you want a fair fight the thing to nerf is the system, not the class.

 

I won't say you're wrong in that those factors can make sentinels and marauders hit harder, BUT, when they always win every fight as you state, then you have to realise that it's not the players' stims, objects and expertise (other people can use these and they still lose).

[Xarimath]

I won't say you're wrong in that those factors can make sentinels and marauders hit harder, BUT, when they always win every fight as you state, then you have to realise that it's not the players' stims, objects and expertise (other people can use these and they still lose).

 

Assassins/Shadows Would disagree with this statement ^^

 

Try to fight a Sentinel with an Assassin/Shadow specced tank or balance with all the stims and the relic activated

[GeckoOBac]

marauders have 3 defensive cooldowns. those 3 abilities are probably in the top 5 for best defensive cooldowns in the game, and theyre given to an all out dps class.

 

5 seconds in pvp can make a world of difference, which is why undying rage/guarded with the force is such a hot topic. the other defensive cooldowns marauders have are no slouches either, giving very good defense against all forms of damage.

 

you cannot give the class with the largest offensive potential the best defensive abilities. look at every other DPS spec in the game. they all have 1, maybe 2 defensive cooldowns; marauders have 3. this isnt rocket science folks.....

 

Long thread, can't be bothered to read it all but... It's 4.

Guarde by the force, force camo, saber ward and rebuke. I hear people complaining about the Trooper shield. It's 25% dmg reduction for 12 secs. Rebuke is 20%, for up to THIRTY secs and does damage to attackers as well. Worst case, it's 6 second of 100% damage reduction (if you know how that thing works, you'll understand).

 

And before somebody says that saber ward isn't influenced by tech/force attacks since they bypass defense, it also reduces force/tech attacks damage by 25%, for 12 secs.

 

So yeah, that's a lot of defensive cooldowns.

[otherworlder]

Force wave is on a 20 second cd. if it was on the same CD as charge then Sorcs would be invicible to melee.

 

And again, marauders dont have an AoE slow. You don't even know what abilities the class has that you are crying about, L2P instead of QQing for nerfs.

 

On the contrary, if charge and some form of escape utility were on a similar CD, then the victor between a balanced melee and ranged class would come down to the player with superior skill at mobility, chasing, kiting, etc., not the class that has a low CD gap closer with a built in root. I agree that certain sorc abilities would unbalance that mechanic, but that's an outlier for another discussion.

 

Also, I'm not crying about marauders in general, their gap-closers or their slows. Those comments were in response to those claiming range = some tremendous defense against melee in this game, which it does not.

 

What I, like most in here, am crying about is Marauders' possession of 3 of the best defensive CDs in the game combined with some of the best burst in the game (I agree that some of the other alpha predators can do comparable burst). I wouldn't have a word to say about you guys if UR and force camo were on much longer CDs or if UR limited your damage output while it was active so that it was used as a defensive/escape tool rather than an offensive one.

 

Look... I have nothing against your class, I really don't. Marauder seems like a blast to play, and they've always been great. But with 1.2, you guys got shuffled around a bit with a few slight improvements and a few slight nerfs, while most other dps took some seriously hard hitting nerfs. That elevated you to levels you don't need to be at to perform competitively.

 

That's why I say again... play a ranged class as well as a melee class. You will understand where a lot of this heat is coming from.

[otherworlder]

You can't kite dots, neither can you kite ravage (enormous nonsensical range on that one to the point of warranting a bug report), neither can you kite predation. Worst of all, due to server lag, you have to tightrope walk an itty bitty line between his leap range and his melee range. Meanwhile, he's throwing his sabre at you, since you're both low by the time he pops UR. Sure, you can try to kite, but it changes nothing. He's still ****** you, and you're not damaging him.

 

It's not about 1v1, either. When any other class in the game gets focused, they die. But not the marauder. Nobody has a defensive CD that buys them a full 4 seconds more against a full teams burst. Not even close. Everybody else gets some sort of crap 25% parry chance t hat amounts to about 10% dr, making UR a 900% better defensive CD. Not to mention that the marauder has a better stealth escape than actual stealth classes, as if they didn't have enough already.

 

It's not about marauders being impossible to kill, so stop trying to change the subject. It's that it shouldn't require so much coordination to kill some scrub who can press 3 keys. A DPS class should not be as hard to kill as marauders are.

 

All of this is accurate.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Parali
reply bad quote " Though I can't speak for the neener neener part."

[Xerain]

On the contrary, if charge and some form of escape utility were on a similar CD, then the victor between a balanced melee and ranged class would come down to the player with superior skill at mobility, chasing, kiting, etc., not the class that has a low CD gap closer with a built in root. I agree that certain sorc abilities would unbalance that mechanic, but that's an outlier for another discussion.

 

Also, I'm not crying about marauders in general, their gap-closers or their slows. Those comments were in response to those claiming range = some tremendous defense against melee in this game, which it does not.

 

What I, like most in here, am crying about is Marauders' possession of 3 of the best defensive CDs in the game combined with some of the best burst in the game (I agree that some of the other alpha predators can do comparable burst). I wouldn't have a word to say about you guys if UR and force camo were on much longer CDs or if UR limited your damage output while it was active so that it was used as a defensive/escape tool rather than an offensive one.

 

Look... I have nothing against your class, I really don't. Marauder seems like a blast to play, and they've always been great. But with 1.2, you guys got shuffled around a bit with a few slight improvements and a few slight nerfs, while most other dps took some seriously hard hitting nerfs. That elevated you to levels you don't need to be at to perform competitively.

 

That's why I say again... play a ranged class as well as a melee class. You will understand where a lot of this heat is coming from.

 

 

Undying rage is used as a defensive and escape tool. Popping it before you die and telling your healer you need heals is a defensive act yo.

[Nydar]

Another fool who understands nothing of the class. Next time your in a WZ, at the end why don't you check out the death count of all those marauders that are so un-destructible. Unless he had a pocket healer the entire game, his deaths are gonna be on par with the rest of his team. Marauders go down very fast if you know how to deal with them. You obviously don't know how to deal with them so to the forums you go crying.

 

Somebody is mad because he's afraid BW may take away his "i win buttons"...........seriously, picking a class with insane damage and five freaking amazing cool downs on 2 min timers doesn't mean you're good bro, just means you're afraid to play something mortal.

[LiveandDieinLA]

On the contrary, if charge and some form of escape utility were on a similar CD, then the victor between a balanced melee and ranged class would come down to the player with superior skill at mobility, chasing, kiting, etc., not the class that has a low CD gap closer with a built in root. I agree that certain sorc abilities would unbalance that mechanic, but that's an outlier for another discussion.

 

Also, I'm not crying about marauders in general, their gap-closers or their slows. Those comments were in response to those claiming range = some tremendous defense against melee in this game, which it does not.

 

What I, like most in here, am crying about is Marauders' possession of 3 of the best defensive CDs in the game combined with some of the best burst in the game (I agree that some of the other alpha predators can do comparable burst). I wouldn't have a word to say about you guys if UR and force camo were on much longer CDs or if UR limited your damage output while it was active so that it was used as a defensive/escape tool rather than an offensive one.

 

Look... I have nothing against your class, I really don't. Marauder seems like a blast to play, and they've always been great. But with 1.2, you guys got shuffled around a bit with a few slight improvements and a few slight nerfs, while most other dps took some seriously hard hitting nerfs. That elevated you to levels you don't need to be at to perform competitively.

 

That's why I say again... play a ranged class as well as a melee class. You will understand where a lot of this heat is coming from.

 

This is the best post you have made in this thread, and I want to apologize for my snarky remarks before.

 

 

I personally think that, with the global TTK decreased, the power of UR increased, and that it should have its duration shortened to 4 seconds. I have said it a bunch of times, but most qqers on the forum are calling for ridiculous changes like doubling its cooldown, making it so that the sent deals 0 damage for the duration, making so that the sent can receive 0 healing during it.

 

As far as the gap closer thing, I spend a couple of hours dueling the guy widely regared as the best sorc on my server. Seriouly this guy is ridiculous, pre 1.2 i saw him do like 800k damaghe with 0 deaths a bunch of times. In our duels we went about 50/50. I have never claimed that I am some godly player. I am pretty good at my class, good enough that this guy asked me to duel because "he wanted to practice against good marauders".

 

In our duels he would fill my resolve twice at least, and the only way i was able to get my wins in was by using everything my class had. Force speed, force stun, whirlwind, overload specced to root, force slow, and whatever the skill that stins you when you break static barrier. Those are all tools that the lightning tree has to kite with. I have the watchman specced leap on a 12 sec cd, but still i would only have time to do one attack on average after my leap. I never was able to pound out three or more melee attacks on him in a row. Most of my wins resulted vecause i popped everything and hit a ridiculous merc slash crit on him, putting him into survival mode. ( self healing during his roots ccs)

[Xerain]

This is the best post you have made in this thread, and I want to apologize for my snarky remarks before.

 

 

I personally think that, with the global TTK decreased, the power of UR increased, and that it should have its duration shortened to 4 seconds. I have said it a bunch of times, but most qqers on the forum are calling for ridiculous changes like doubling its cooldown, making it so that the sent deals 0 damage for the duration, making so that the sent can receive 0 healing during it.

 

As far as the gap closer thing, I spend a couple of hours dueling the guy widely regared as the best sorc on my server. Seriouly this guy is ridiculous, pre 1.2 i saw him do like 800k damaghe with 0 deaths a bunch of times. In our duels we went about 50/50. I have never claimed that I am some godly player. I am pretty good at my class, good enough that this guy asked me to duel because "he wanted to practice against good marauders".

 

In our duels he would fill my resolve twice at least, and the only way i was able to get my wins in was by using everything my class had. Force speed, force stun, whirlwind, overload specced to root, force slow, and whatever the skill that stins you when you break static barrier. Those are all tools that the lightning tree has to kite with. I have the watchman specced leap on a 12 sec cd, but still i would only have time to do one attack on average after my leap. I never was able to pound out three or more melee attacks on him in a row. Most of my wins resulted vecause i popped everything and hit a ridiculous merc slash crit on him, putting him into survival mode. ( self healing during his roots ccs)

 

Glad i'm not the only one that knows sorcs have the tools to kite but everyone refuses to see it, even the sorcs.

[DarthOvertone]

You can't kite dots, neither can you kite ravage (enormous nonsensical range on that one to the point of warranting a bug report), neither can you kite predation.

 

If a DOT or two is the worst you suffered when in melee range with a Marauder, then count your blessings. heh

 

 

Predation is a bit different and situational for my Marauder. It's not something my Marauder uses as a go-to, especially if he is applying a lot of DOTs and could be benefiting from the heal ticks. So I don't see this as a game changer at all. My Marauder doesn't use it all the time.

 

It's not about marauders being impossible to kill, so stop trying to change the subject.

 

There's no subject change. The primary QQ claim in this thread is that the Marauder defensive cds are too good for their being a DPS class. I responded to that. Did you not read the thread?

 

It's that it shouldn't require so much coordination to kill some scrub who can press 3 keys. A DPS class should not be as hard to kill as marauders are.

 

It doesn't take coordination to kill a Marauder. It does take some skill though. For instance, don't stand still, spam dps skills, and expect to win in a toe-to-toe fight with the best melee DPS class in the game. lol

Edited May 12, 2012 by Parali
rude, already warned - "Sorry, but if you can't kite [i]Ravage[/i], then you're bad."

[-Eternal-]

The problem is ridiculously OP DPS,,,, paired with ridiculously OP Defense,,,,, paired with Vanish,,,, paired with self heals,,,,, paired with...well you get the point.

[LiveandDieinLA]

The problem is ridiculously OP DPS,,,, paired with ridiculously OP Defense,,,,, paired with Vanish,,,, paired with self heals,,,,, paired with...well you get the point.

 

Yeah I get the point, you are a master of ridiculously OPed QQ.

[Vetril]

Leveling a sniper right now, going lethality with it at 50, and want to make a pyro merc. Both classes with the specs look pretty mobile from someone who knows how to actually kite. Both classes with specs have the tools.

 

marauders do not have the best burst, that's probably pyro pt's.

 

I've played multiple roles and classes in MMO's and you should be able to compare those classes to other classes from other video games and see their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Try the sniper tree that gives acid grenade (I think that's the imperial name). You can spec it to snare people, and it last for 18 seconds. No melee will be able to catch up with you.

[DarthOvertone]

Try the sniper tree that gives acid grenade (I think that's the imperial name). You can spec it to snare people, and it last for 18 seconds. No melee will be able to catch up with you.

 

There are two Snipers on AP that can just straight shut my Marauder down. But they know how to play, and no, I'm not going to create a nerf Snipers thread about it.

[Xerain]

Try the sniper tree that gives acid grenade (I think that's the imperial name). You can spec it to snare people, and it last for 18 seconds. No melee will be able to catch up with you.

 

Yeah lethality tree. What i plan on doing and then wrecking people...

[Blloodbane]

The problem is ridiculously OP DPS,,,, paired with ridiculously OP Defense,,,,, paired with Vanish,,,, paired with self heals,,,,, paired with...well you get the point.

 

ok ok we get it, you think Mara/Sents are OP and need to be nerfed....got it.. check... go back to the thread were you defend that PT's are not OP...

 

Maybe while there see if pot will talk to kettle...