Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[Xerain]

And heavy armor, and the ability to attack from range or close up... So yes it is 2+2...

 

being able to attack from 30m range, not worry about aoe's, and take 0 damage is far greater then any cool down a marauder has for defense.

[Arzoo]

being able to attack from 30m range, not worry about aoe's, and take 0 damage is far greater then any cool down a marauder has for defense.

 

30 meters is melee range for everyone but snipers.

[Blloodbane]

30 meters is melee range for everyone but snipers.

 

Wha the wha... huh.... *scratches head*

 

Say whatttttttt ???

 

[Xerain]

Wha the wha... huh.... *scratches head*

 

Say whatttttttt ???

 

 

Yeah i was wondering that samething...

 

 

WAT?

[Lugh]

Mara/Sents die compartively like everyone else, people assume they die less just because of UR/GBTF

 

Mara/Sents have ZERO push,pull abilties, they have ZERO CC, and they are Medium armor...

YOU OBVIOUSLY DON"T UNDERSTAND CC NOR THE CORRECT APPLICATION OF SOFT CC

So you want to nerf their defenses and basically gut the class...

 

Take a look at the class base of Barbarian and you get the Mara/Sent's

 

Thats it...

 

FYI, not every single Mara/Sent out there is Anhilation/Watchman specced... You dont care?? The changes you are suggesting would nerf the other two trees available to the class in the ground.

 

Yes Soft CC, you know that annoying ability to interrupt you every 4 seconds. That permanent snare that even if you manage to get it and the DoT dispelled is immediately placed back on?

 

And the hard CC on the Maurader side? Ridiculous. 9 seconds of cowering which is still a full 3 seconds longer than Sentinel ability on the other side.

 

Other AoE CC's break on damage OP/SMUGGLER , or last a Whopping 2 seconds (PT)

[Xerain]

Yes Soft CC, you know that annoying ability to interrupt you every 4 seconds. That permanent snare that even if you manage to get it and the DoT dispelled is immediately placed back on?

 

My snare auto refreshes?!?! what news to me.

 

And the hard CC on the Maurader side? Ridiculous. 9 seconds of cowering which is still a full 3 seconds longer than Sentinel ability on the other side.

 

Other AoE CC's break on damage OP/SMUGGLER , or last a Whopping 2 seconds (PT)

 

Uh intimidating roar/awe break on damage just like flashbang TYVM.

 

I play both sentinel and marauder, they're exact mirrors of eachother.

 

Also leveling a sniper for fun and flashbang is shared.

[Blloodbane]

Yeah i was wondering that samething...

 

 

WAT?

 

I mean if he said 4m I could somewhat see something in that, maybe, not sure of the point of it though..

 

I mean its a very deep thought that is beyond me (which could be) or, heck I I dont know... I looked at it for like 3 minutes to make something of it....and just gave up... LOL too much time on a small post LOL.

[Lugh]

Uh intimidating roar/awe break on damage just like flashbang TYVM.

 

I play both sentinel and marauder, they're exact mirrors of eachother.

 

Also leveling a sniper for fun and flashbang is shared.

 

Funny how I do a count on either one and on sentinels I get to 6 seconds every time and marauders lasts until 9

 

I must not be counting correctly. I mean its so hard when you aren't doing anything else during that whole time.

[Blloodbane]

Funny how I do a count on either one and on sentinels I get to 6 seconds every time and marauders lasts until 9

 

I must not be counting correctly. I mean its so hard when you aren't doing anything else during that whole time.

 

Intimidating Roar is 6 seconds and does break on damage... even for Marauders...

 

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/804/intimidating_roar/

 

Just looked at skill trees and didnt see anything for Marauders on any tree that increased it to 9 seconds. You must be counting with bias.

[Xerain]

Funny how I do a count on either one and on sentinels I get to 6 seconds every time and marauders lasts until 9

 

I must not be counting correctly. I mean its so hard when you aren't doing anything else during that whole time.

 

orly?

[otherworlder]

How geared is your jug or guardian? In our matches they normally are the last ones standing. We run with 3 different speced ones. One is full tank, impossible for one person to bring down, 1 is 10/31/0 with a mix of tank/dps and the other is a force sweep spec. The only one that may be less durable is the force sweep spec, he is also smart enough to change stances to hold nodes. Lots of games he is top dps.

 

If you play with teamates at all melee is extremely easy to kite. There is far more CC than leaps or gap closers. Unless you play a merc I'm not sure how you don't see that.

 

I play a merc, a juggy and a PT. I've never had issues staying in melee range of anyone on my juggy or PT, unless playing one of the best coordinated premades on a server, and even then it's less an issue of range than one of being chain cc'd until dead.

 

My juggy is full BM, some WH. DPS spec but I roll in Soresu to protect a healer I group with, as Immortal spec (contrary to popular belief) affords very little additional survivability over the dps specs while sacrificing tons of damage. They're largely a nuisance. They are also generally the last kill priority against good teams (heals first, then squishy dps, then down to tank). If there's too much taunting flying around, they will sometimes redirect to the tank/juggy and kill him first so as to maximize dps, but this isn't as common or as necessary with the present insanely fast TTK.

 

If you're running in a premade (which it sounds like you are) your views on class balance will always be skewed. Every class is buffed/padded in a good premade. A juggernaut in a chaotic pug melee is much, much squishier than a well played marauder, even the tank specced ones. Juggy defensive CDs are a joke, with less effectiveness and longer CDs than all of the marauder equivalents.

Edited May 11, 2012 by otherworlder

[otherworlder]

How geared is your jug or guardian? In our matches they normally are the last ones standing. We run with 3 different speced ones. One is full tank, impossible for one person to bring down, 1 is 10/31/0 with a mix of tank/dps and the other is a force sweep spec. The only one that may be less durable is the force sweep spec, he is also smart enough to change stances to hold nodes. Lots of games he is top dps.

 

If you play with teamates at all melee is extremely easy to kite. There is far more CC than leaps or gap closers. Unless you play a merc I'm not sure how you don't see that.

 

Also, I never said there was less CC than gap closers. You seem to forget that melee get gap closers as well as CC. Most ranged only get the cc, with no meaningful snares or escape utility.

[Xerain]

Also, I never said there was less CC than gap closers. You seem to forget that melee get gap closers as well as CC. Most ranged only get the cc, with no meaningful snares or escape utility.

 

What? every ranged in this game has a knockback! are you crazy.

[otherworlder]

30 meters is melee range for everyone but snipers.

 

This guy is essentially correct. I already stated it... please read above folks. If someone is in range to attack you with a blaster, you are in range to attack them with charge. Range is meaningless in this game against good melee players.

 

For that matter, so is heavy armor. The mitigation between that and light is very minimal, and most of the better high damage attacks in PvP completely bypass armor anyway. Defensive CDs and mobility afford much, much greater survivability and Marauders have the lion's share of those.

[Xerain]

This guy is essentially correct. I already stated it... please read above folks. If someone is in range to attack you with a blaster, you are in range to attack them with charge. Range is meaningless in this game against good melee players.

 

For that matter, so is heavy armor. The mitigation between that and light is very minimal, and most of the better high damage attacks in PvP completely bypass armor anyway. Defensive CDs and mobility afford much, much greater survivability and Marauders have the lion's share of those.

 

lol then in every other MMO ranged is meanless because everyone has a gap closer. Ranged in the hands of a good player makes those gap closers useless.

 

So GG.

[LiveandDieinLA]

I play a merc, a juggy and a PT. I've never had issues staying in melee range of anyone on my juggy or PT, unless playing one of the best coordinated premades on a server, and even then it's less an issue of range than one of being chain cc'd until dead.

 

My juggy is full BM, some WH. DPS spec but I roll in Soresu to protect a healer I group with, as Immortal spec (contrary to popular belief) affords very little additional survivability over the dps specs while sacrificing tons of damage. They're largely a nuisance. They are also generally the last kill priority against good teams (heals first, then squishy dps, then down to tank). If there's too much taunting flying around, they will sometimes redirect to the tank/juggy and kill him first so as to maximize dps, but this isn't as common or as necessary with the present insanely fast TTK.

 

If you're running in a premade (which it sounds like you are) your views on class balance will always be skewed. Every class is buffed/padded in a good premade. A juggernaut in a chaotic pug melee is much, much squishier than a well played marauder, even the tank specced ones. Juggy defensive CDs are a joke, which less effectiveness and longer CDs than all of the marauder equivalents.

 

Focused defense = 45 second CD (15 less than rebuke)

 

Saberward = same cd as a mara except the jugg version gives 2 seconds of 100% dodge

 

Enure = 90 second CD (same as UR)

 

so where are these longer cds?

oh wait, they don't exist.

 

Put all the proc and specced defesive abilities, along with better passive mitigation and juggs come out on top.

 

If Marauders really were the most durable class in the game then wouldn't raiding guilds be using marauders as their main tanks for ops?

[Blloodbane]

This guy is essentially correct. I already stated it... please read above folks. If someone is in range to attack you with a blaster, you are in range to attack them with charge. Range is meaningless in this game against good melee players.

 

For that matter, so is heavy armor. The mitigation between that and light is very minimal, and most of the better high damage attacks in PvP completely bypass armor anyway. Defensive CDs and mobility afford much, much greater survivability and Marauders have the lion's share of those.

 

Range is NOT meaningless, if a range gets rooted they can still attack... and just because someone has force charge doesnt meant they can spam that abiltiy to every ranged to cover the distance..

 

As for the heavy armor statement, i like how you minimized its affaect. You do realize its always on the entire match and even IF it was only 4% (Ihave yet to see any hard facts on that statement nor confirmed or denied by devs)... it still does work on a lot of attacks, and the exact same reduction in armor that heavy has is even worse for the lighter armored classes... you act like medium and light armor is much better mitigation and nothing hapens to it...

Edited May 11, 2012 by Blloodbane

[Razuache]

The problem is the heals from watchman basically and possibly guarded by the force should be like 2min cooldown not 1min30 im sure if the heal was nerfd to 1% or even removed i dont really know why its there tbh give them a short term heal like endure pain off of juggernaut maybe ;p

[otherworlder]

What? every ranged in this game has a knockback! are you crazy.

 

As a marauder, if you're opening with your charge on a class that gets one very brief knockback, you are not playing correctly. Run into melee range, they knockback, you force charge them. Game over. They will probably not shake you again unless you are keyboard turning or they have a lot of team support/stealth.

 

Contrary to popular belief, ranged dps in this game has very, very few tools to maintain range. If you don't believe me, play one to 50 and pvp extensively with it. Kiting only works in games like WoW because ranged classes get snares/slows and meleers don't have a short CD 30m gap closer and AE spammable slows on demand.

 

If ranged classes in TOR had these things, I would never argue that Marauders were OP. They would need all of their survival tools.

[Razuache]

This guy is essentially correct. I already stated it... please read above folks. If someone is in range to attack you with a blaster, you are in range to attack them with charge. Range is meaningless in this game against good melee players.

 

For that matter, so is heavy armor. The mitigation between that and light is very minimal, and most of the better high damage attacks in PvP completely bypass armor anyway. Defensive CDs and mobility afford much, much greater survivability and Marauders have the lion's share of those.

 

my sentinel full bm has like 25% armour juggernaut has 50% and its only lvl 49 clearly armour is a big diference

[HurricaneXXIV]

The 4% number comes from both a guardian and sent being in Shi Cho (sp). The real physical damage reduction listed is closer to 33% (Guardian) 24% (Sent). The ability to change stances drastically changes these numbers.

 

Basically it's factually dishonest.

[otherworlder]

Focused defense = 45 second CD (15 less than rebuke)

 

Saberward = same cd as a mara except the jugg version gives 2 seconds of 100% dodge

 

Enure = 90 second CD (same as UR)

 

so where are these longer cds?

oh wait, they don't exist.

 

Put all the proc and specced defesive abilities, along with better passive mitigation and juggs come out on top.

 

If Marauders really were the most durable class in the game then wouldn't raiding guilds be using marauders as their main tanks for ops?

 

If you're comparing TTK on a raid boss to TTK on players in PvP combat, I don't know what to tell you. The fact they are not the same thing should be obvious. 5 seconds of immunity to damage means nothing on a raid boss, everything against another player (or multiple players).

 

Also the fact you're comparing any of the CDs of a juggernaut to UR is just silly, again for reasons I'd hope would be obvious.

[Blloodbane]

The 4% number comes from both a guardian and sent being in Shi Cho (sp). The real physical damage reduction listed is closer to 33% (Guardian) 24% (Sent). The ability to change stances drastically changes these numbers.

 

Basically it's factually dishonest.

 

Well I dont know about other Mara/Sents but unless I read my skills wrong, for Carnage, I am pretty much forced to be in Aturu form for my abilties to work. I dont switch stances.... Maybe its something I missed... do skills based on a form still work even though in another stance? I know jugs switch stances...

[LiveandDieinLA]

As a marauder, if you're opening with your charge on a class that gets one very brief knockback, you are not playing correctly. Run into melee range, they knockback, you force charge them. Game over. They will probably not shake you again unless you are keyboard turning or they have a lot of team support/stealth.

 

Contrary to popular belief, ranged dps in this game has very, very few tools to maintain range. If you don't believe me, play one to 50 and pvp extensively with it. Kiting only works in games like WoW because ranged classes get snares/slows and meleers don't have a short CD 30m gap closer and AE spammable slows on demand.

 

If ranged classes in TOR had these things, I would never argue that Marauders were OP. They would need all of their survival tools.

 

 

Run into melee range? LOL thats where kiting comes into play bro, because you can't just "run into melee range" against someone who is running away from you. That's what it means to kite.

 

Ranged in this game DO get roots and snares. They just don't use them.

 

And Juggernauts get AoE spamable slows, not Marauders.

[DarthOvertone]

Go play a ranged class if you think kiting exists in this game in any meaningful way. The reason you kill ranged so easily is not that you're pro...

 

I do play a ranged class. I have a Scoundrel, but don't list him in my sig. Kiting is essential on that toon, especially when out of stealth so I'm quite familiar with it. lol

 

Kiting is stupid easy and not hard in this game. Then again, maybe some of these people complaining about it are keyboard turners, in which case, it might be difficult after all. If that's the case, then there is no help for them.

 

The only time my Marauder kills a ranged class easy is when that player stands still and tries to fight him toe-to-toe like a moron. So you are right in a sense. It doesn't take a pro to kill a target that doesn't even try to move.