SWTOR: Lacking in appeal for the casual gamer?

[Walking-Carpet]

I think you guys are confusing the term 'casual' used in the conference call with how we, the player population, use the term.

 

They were simply referring to people who canceled after their first month as casual. It makes no assumptions about their in game activities.

 

For all we know, it could have been 'hardcore' players who cancelled, unhappy with the game itself.

I agree. In the recording, he lumped "casual" players together with players who were just trying out the game and canceled after their initial 30 days ran out. There's no reason to assume that his use of the word "causal" in the context that he used it is related in any way to the way MMO players use the word. (Even MMO players use the word to mean a variety of different things.)

[Darth_Vampirius]

EV on normal takes roughly an hour if you don't wipe on every boss 6 times. The only reason esseles takes long is if you watch the cutscenes, that's not an hour of gameplay. FE is the longest FP in the game. You can almost do both EV and KP if you're running with a competent team in the same time it takes to clear it, maybe 30min more.

When doing FE, you know how often players say "god, when is it going to end?!" Often. I have had it happen every time I ran it. EV and KP... how much time for a first time run with a fresh 50? And how do you even get in without a guild?

 

Maybe some players think that playing 3hrs a night is "casual. " I don't agree. If you ran for 3 hours a day, what kind of shape would you be in? Some people play MMOs about 3-10 hours a week. What then?

[Andryah]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-08-ea-blames-star-wars-the-old-republic-subscribers-fall-on-casuals-leaving-game

 

Upon reading this, I became a little disenfranchised with the way management is treating SWTOR. As a company, any business that involves customers should take the stance not to blame customers, ever. When you blame the consumer, you end up with a dead product.

 

Moreover, I do believe that SWTOR needs more features to appeal to casual MMO players. An MMO is a hard thing to make. You need to appeal to a wide audience, from most casual to most hardcore. The wider the appeal, the more popular the game will be. What do you guys think of this?

 

You, and the article, are confused by the way the suit in the analyst call used the term "causal". In the context of the call (and the prepared talking points it was dictated from), casual to EA means people who bought the game, loaded and installed the game, played the free 30 days, but never continued into a paid subscription. It's their term, and it is used differently then the way we in the community use the word "casual".

[Elkard]

MMORPGs are not really designed to provide any player with "everything" within a month. That's a console gaming mentality--quick, quick, quick. I am not talking about the grind fest, but about the amount of things to do in-game. 721 or so things to complete--that is not including the high number of missions to do, crafting to be done, ironing and chasing angel-winged bunnies riding Pandas.

 

A casual gamer should have, let's face it, years of fun (cough) to complete these items. So-called Hardcore as well should have about a year of game time to complete everything--I mean everything (if some has screen shots that have not been doctored proving they have completeed everything I would like to see them).

 

Game developers tend to forget that there is a culture of gaming types out there in virtual space who make it their Real Life Quest to race through to top level as quickly as possible. I've even seen contests where the first person to top level gets [pick something]. People playing 12 or more hours seven days a week--not just the businesses that Power Level for people (a disgusting immoral business on both sides)--and who "learn" the system can roll through most if not almost all of the content available--especially the ones with digital watches and who "roll" with their Guildies--rather quickly. For the Guilded semi-single player, completion might take a little longer--not that anything in a good MMORPG should ever be copmpleted--here comes expansion 33, Return of the Revenge for the New Hope Wookie Jedi vs the Sand People Sith.

 

Those who quest alone, but like the vibrant world with other RL people controlling toons you can sometimes stop and chat with, should be happy with taking their time. However, there are those who covet and must have everything they see someone who has worked hard to get right now without struggle. When that doesn't happen, subs drop. Of course there are other reasons which these boards cover in great detail, but for a large part of the population it's time spent vs money spent, and quality, compared to RL money spent.

 

In summary: [argh! MORE?!] yes, the casuals who do leave probably want the game to be like their "console" and not extended careers. They kind of remind me of an uncle who just HAD to trade in his cars every two years, for variety.

 

People who stay have their reasons--crafting, story, legacy, fighting monsters while your cuddly little TaunTaun--didn't know they came in miniature sizes--follows you around, sitting on a vehicle on the space station giving everyone lung disease doing nothing or "saying" they are waiting on a WZ (I dance and craft while waiting; people who stand in place doing nothing are spooky [shiver]), or whatever do so because this is the virtual world they prefer.

 

Live and let live; game and let game--if people want to leave because the game isn't for them, right now, oh well. All this finger pointing about casual, so-called hard core, and casual hardcore just needs to stop and focus on what the game needs to be better for everyone, even those without digital watches.

[allexkramer]

Man am I tired of see 99.99% of any discussion online about SWTOR talking about how the game is bad or lacks. If you don't want to play the game then don't play it but don't make a hundred threads talking about why you don't like the game, move on with your lives.

 

Personally I get bored of MMO or all games for that matter within probably no later than 3-4 months. I quit WoW after that amount time if not less because it was overly boring, I stopped playing Skyrim because I eventually got bored of that, I can never play Call of Duty games for a straight month without leaving for awhile, but right now I am enjoying SWTOR and I almost fully expect to move on to another game in a couple of months unless there is something to keep me going. The only game that has kept me on and off for short periods an entire year (I know what you will think) is DC universe online on the Ps3. Wanna know why? Well I first started the game out and beat it fairly quickly then I got bored and canceled. Well then a couple of months later a Green Lantern expansion comes out so I get that and by the time I get through all that and the monthly updates there is another expansion, and by the time I get through that there is another. Dcuo team releases expo anions every three months and release miniature type expansion/updates every months. This is what every MMO needs. Innovative and creative content every couple of months to pull players back. Of course I am not playing Dcuo right now because I am playing swtor, and honestly I am having the time of my gaming life. And hopefully the next update will keep me clued.

[Icysunx]

The reason SWTOR is lacking for casual gamers is because they just don't have time to continually reroll characters when their server dies.

[Jett-Rinn]

In WOW you can log in and do a raid on your lunch break. You can do up to 4 dungeons.

 

Guid Wars you can log in and have a max level character in a few seconds... do a few battles on your lunch, and log out.

 

These are the games we compare SWTOR, and you are saying SWTOR is more casual? How so? This past weekend I ran the Esseles. It took an hour. I wanted to do a quick run before work. I was almost late.

 

 

The issue is that most of the developers are admitted hardcore progression raiders...they will keep trying to areal to that base, despite the fact that base hates their guts.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sireene
quote of edited post

[HisShadowX]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-08-ea-blames-star-wars-the-old-republic-subscribers-fall-on-casuals-leaving-game

 

Upon reading this, I became a little disenfranchised with the way management is treating SWTOR. As a company, any business that involves customers should take the stance not to blame customers, ever. When you blame the consumer, you end up with a dead product.

 

Moreover, I do believe that SWTOR needs more features to appeal to casual MMO players. An MMO is a hard thing to make. You need to appeal to a wide audience, from most casual to most hardcore. The wider the appeal, the more popular the game will be. What do you guys think of this?

 

Bioware does this all the time at social.bioware.com. Stanley Woo actively insults customers they all mislabel as 'fans' and of course Bioware's GM once told a customer to "**** off"

[Darth_Sinistor]

.... In WOW you can log in and do a raid on your lunch break. You can do up to 4 dungeons.

 

Guid Wars you can log in and have a max level character in a few seconds... do a few battles on your lunch, and log out.

 

These are the games we compare SWTOR, and you are saying SWTOR is more casual? How so? This past weekend I ran the Esseles. It took an hour. I wanted to do a quick run before work. I was almost late.

 

I agree. 100%.

 

I recently unsubbed from TOR and went back to WoW.

 

My God. It was like a tall, cool glass of water to a man dying of thirst.

 

As soon as I logged in I ticked the little box that said "DPS", then pressed the little button that said "Find Group".

 

Within five minutes I was in a dungeon. Five minutes.

 

But as an added bonus there were some flagged Alliance outside Orgrimmar, so for that five minutes I was able to enjoy some pvp (as opposed to TOR where I encountered my first Republic player out side a WZ at level 25. On Tatooine. The FIFTH planet I visited.)

 

I did enjoy some aspects of TOR, but the lack of a cross-server LFG tool, sub-par pvp and lackluster racial choices (c'mon Bioware - let us play something more iconic than different skinned humans already!) mean unfortunately I am done here, which saddens me because I am a HUGE Star Wars fan and have been for over thirty years.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Darth_Sinistor

[Blazenor]

Casual players are the ones supporting this game right now.

[Barleigh]

EA boss John Riccitiello : "So the percentage of paying subscribers from our peak until now has actually gone up, and the folks that we have are as engaged as they were when they first bought the product."

 

What does this mean exactly? That the numbers they reported as subscribers in the first report was...wrong? fudged? Different definition of paying?

 

How does one say 1.7M subscribers earlier, 1.3M subscribers later, and the percent of paying subscribers has gone up? That only means to me that the hyped up 1.7 million was incorrect =P

[Skidrowbro]

Casual players are the ones supporting this game right now.

 

We are the majority but that all depends on your definition of casual

[Darkulous]

Casual players are the ones supporting this game right now.

 

For now, but they started leaving months ago and they're still leaving. Who here honestly believes there are 1.3 million active players today? It's funny how people call this game a Themepark MMO or a MMO for Casuals. This game has NO FEATURES! Casuals need features. Hardcores need continous content. BW has been favoring the Hardcores more then casuals since release. Hardcores got more content. Exactly what features have Casuals been given? ZERO.

[Skidrowbro]

Exactly what features have Casuals been given? ZERO.

 

They have been given SWTOR

[Darkulous]

I agree. 100%.

 

I recently unsubbed from TOR and went back to WoW.

 

My God. It was like a tall, cool glass of water to a man dying of thirst.

 

 

You're right on dude. Going from a featureless MMO to a MMO loaded with features is exactly how you described it. I mean, you can't even get a whisper option from right clicking a person on the Guild roster. You can't shift click an item onto the search bar on the GTN. TOR isn't just missing the big features, it's missing all the small ones too. It's ridiculous.

[Barleigh]

I left wow when I turned into a casual, because I didnt feel the casual game that you speak about.

 

Casual does not mean dumb btw. Casual is more a factor that indicates that someone cant play every day, wont read every guide and also wont always have the best items in a game. I sometimes have gaps of a few weeks where I cant play at all, with that I was lost at wow.

 

If you dont play a while, the demands even for old content double or triple.

 

I went into heroic 5 mens after a break on my second char, those dungeons we did clear 1 week after release easily with greens and blues. Guess what happened, people raged at the gear, raged at no achivements...simply put they did not accept it! They did also not accept the round about 12k dps of a friend, who did as well clear every hc with me. No what they did demand were 20k dps, the ability to outheal noobish dps that stands in fire...

 

Yes wow is a easy game, you dont need much for it - but the lack of skill that you need, does the community of elitist´s add and thats hardcore and nothing less. Casuals have absolutely no time, especially if you use the LFG tool. People hear "new", see "not full epics", no achivements and they rage at you - no casual does want that torture and because of that so many casuals left wow.

 

A new player who joins wow is put infront of lions, that dont give him any chance to learn or discover. Even at simple lvl dungeons you are treaten like **** at wow...

 

SWTOR is definately better there, but who knows what the LFG tool and dps meters will turn it into.

 

My mother disagrees. She's 70 years old. I let her try both games. She got annihilated in swtor and absolutely loved wow (of course she picked a hunter, AMG PETS). Take a guess which game she spent her money on?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like swtor. But my mother is as newbie and as casual as you can get. It's only a sample of 1 but this is more valid to me than us veteran gamers posting on what is "easy".

Edited May 10, 2012 by Barleigh
typo!

[Darkulous]

They have been given SWTOR

 

A MMO that is literally from a time long long ago.

[Blazenor]

For now, but they started leaving months ago and they're still leaving. Who here honestly believes there are 1.3 million active players today? It's funny how people call this game a Themepark MMO or a MMO for Casuals. This game has NO FEATURES! Casuals need features. Hardcores need continous content. BW has been favoring the Hardcores more then casuals since release. Hardcores got more content. Exactly what features have Casuals been given? ZERO.

 

Can you give a small example of the kind of features that a causal player would want? Right now most (IMO) causal players don't have issues with the game, it's mostly those "hardcore" endgame players.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Blazenor

[Beyorn]

Hi My Name is Beyorn and I am….A Casual /cry.

 

After seeing some of these responses I wanted to add a few things.

I do wish the game was more casual than it is now. That is going to fly in the face of some people so let me explain. I have a full time job, take care of a family and look after my 72 year old mother. This is while doing house chores/paying bills (all the fun things). As a onetime hardcore player (committed to a raid guild/times all that) I find it really frustrating that I will never be able to get gear better than comm gear.

 

I can’t commit to a guild, sadly I don’t know when I will be able to log on from day to day and when I do get on I don’t know if everyone will leave me alone long enough to find a group or I may have to leave 15 mins into the flashpoint. So instead of subjecting others to my play time (or lack thereof) I mostly solo, which gets old really quick once you hit 50. I truly wish someone would come up with something that would be a fun endgame for people like me.

 

Devs: Grinding for credits and gear like I have to do at 50 isn’t fun. Especially when you have about 2 to 3 hours a night at most. I guess really I need to move on and play single player games. I just hate to though. I really love multi-player games and have been enjoying them for the past 10 years. You can’t help people you run by with buffs or heals in a single player game. You can’t help someone when they have bitten off more than they can handle in a single player game. Finally the most fun I have playing is doing drive-by healing. I have usually healed them to full before they know what is happening. I try to work it so they don’t see me and by the time they realize what has happened I’m long gone.

 

If a dev is reading this please take into account your casual player base. Im not asking for freebies ;(.

 

I just love the IP too. Dammit. Real life sucks!!!

[Darkulous]

Can you give a small example of the kind of features that a causal player would want? Right now most (IMO) causal players don't have issues with the game, it's mostly those "hardcore" endgame players.

 

I'll just name one because it's the most important. X-Server LFD. Casuals are not gonna sit in fleet for hours.

[Skidrowbro]

Hi My Name is Beyorn and I am….A Casual /cry.

 

After seeing some of these responses I wanted to add a few things.

I do wish the game was more casual than it is now. That is going to fly in the face of some people so let me explain. I have a full time job, take care of a family and look after my 72 year old mother. This is while doing house chores/paying bills (all the fun things). As a onetime hardcore player (committed to a raid guild/times all that) I find it really frustrating that I will never be able to get gear better than comm gear.

 

I can’t commit to a guild, sadly I don’t know when I will be able to log on from day to day and when I do get on I don’t know if everyone will leave me alone long enough to find a group or I may have to leave 15 mins into the flashpoint. So instead of subjecting others to my play time (or lack thereof) I mostly solo, which gets old really quick once you hit 50. I truly wish someone would come up with something that would be a fun endgame for people like me.

 

Devs: Grinding for credits and gear like I have to do at 50 isn’t fun. Especially when you have about 2 to 3 hours a night at most. I guess really I need to move on and play single player games. I just hate to though. I really love multi-player games and have been enjoying them for the past 10 years. You can’t help people you run by with buffs or heals in a single player game. You can’t help someone when they have bitten off more than they can handle in a single player game. Finally the most fun I have playing is doing drive-by healing. I have usually healed them to full before they know what is happening. I try to work it so they don’t see me and by the time they realize what has happened I’m long gone.

 

If a dev is reading this please take into account your casual player base. Im not asking for freebies ;(.

 

I just love the IP too. Dammit. Real life sucks!!!

 

Just look for like minded players and even a guild that won't jump all over you because you actually have a life, they do exist I swear. I only play a couple of hours a night and I will never join a guild that demands that I be there on their schedule.

[Skidrowbro]

I'll just name one because it's the most important. X-Server LFD. Casuals are not gonna sit in fleet for hours.

 

Actually, that's what the hardcores want so they can farm. The end

[Darth_Vampirius]

Can you give a small example of the kind of features that a causal player would want? Right now most (IMO) causal players don't have issues with the game, it's mostly those "hardcore" endgame players.

I know that some people will hate my ideas and some will like them, hopefully more the latter. Here they are:

#1 Reduce costs of training, speeders, and mod removal by 20%. Reduce costs of crafting and Bank slots by 40%. Reduce costs of Legafy unlocks by 75%.

 

#2 Reduce the amount of mobs spawned from levels 25-49 by about 30%.

 

#3 Reduce trash mob hp in Flashpoints by 15%. and boss hp by 5%.

 

#4 Add a new training/ tutorial bracket in PVP that allows brand new players to earn a fairly acceptable "tutorial" set of items.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Darth_Vampirius

[Darkulous]

Actually, that's what the hardcores want so they can farm. The end

 

Nope. Casuals latch onto any gametime saving feature, LFD is the biggest time saver feature there is. But I won't argue with you that Hardcore players want it also.

[Grimne_Lothos]

ok some definitions.

 

A hardcore player is someone that will do anything to maximize his play. This normally involves spending hours doing research outside of the game or spending 10 hours a week watching fraps of his own gameplay in order to optimize his UI.

 

A casual player finds it acceptable that the game was released without maximizing tools such as an ingame combat log or UI customazations but a hardcore player does not.

 

Hardcore players found a different game to be hardcore about shortly after hitting 50.