Arsenal PvP Feedback

[fujeo-finel]

Boy I sure do hope someone important is reading all of this.

[T-Assassin]

Boy I sure do hope someone important is reading all of this.

 

me too, honestly...me too.

[fujeo-finel]

The talent Power Barrier should be buffed to 4% less damage taken per stack, maxing at 20%, as well as lowering the lockout duration of interrupted abilities by 10% per stack, maxing at 50%.

 

I've decided that this one change is all we need to be balanced in PvP. Make this happen and Arsenal will be fine.

 

Oh and this:

Tracer Missile should have it's animation change reverted.

Edited June 24, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Skapek-Skocap]

Honestly as an Arsenal Merc, I hope nothing changes. I usually don't top the board for Damage in Warzones, but I'm never lower than 5-6th. I love the class and I hope it remains the same.

 

Arsenal is a ranged DPS class. You're not meant to run around in the thick of the fighting, you're meant to find a target and kill them from 10m out.

[fujeo-finel]

Honestly as an Arsenal Merc, I hope nothing changes. I usually don't top the board for Damage in Warzones, but I'm never lower than 5-6th. I love the class and I hope it remains the same.

 

Arsenal is a ranged DPS class. You're not meant to run around in the thick of the fighting, you're meant to find a target and kill them from 10m out.

 

Yea, no.

[T-Assassin]

Yea, no.

 

and everybody thinks i'm crazy or trolling when i say Merc/PT is good in PvP...

 

what about that guy??!!

[Serpieri]

Honestly as an Arsenal Merc, I hope nothing changes. I usually don't top the board for Damage in Warzones, but I'm never lower than 5-6th. I love the class and I hope it remains the same.

 

Arsenal is a ranged DPS class. You're not meant to run around in the thick of the fighting, you're meant to find a target and kill them from 10m out.

 

Problem is that you can't - even before 1.2 mercs were easy to destroy and the bad ones that just tracered weren't even a threat. I do find it funny though that a tracer hits me for 800 takes 1.5 secs to cast and I can take 4k of you life in an instant.

[fujeo-finel]

I will not accept that any one class in this game is to play second fiddle support to any other class. I will not accept that range DPS are supposed to be merely support DPS for the invincible melee. I will not accept the superiority of force classes at the cost of non-force classes. Every class in this game has an individual player behind it, and every individual player deserves to be able to make as much input to a team as any other player. Edited June 26, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Wrestle]

I will not accept that any one class in this game is to play second fiddle support to any other class. I will not accept that range DPS are supposed to be merely support DPS for the invincible melee. I will not accept the superiority of force classes at the cost of non-force classes. Every class in this game has an individual player behind it, and every individual player deserves to be able to make as much input to a team as any other player.

 

You pretty much summed it up correctly. Bioware has been moving in the right direction this last few months or so in all areas, except class balance. They fubared the class in 1.2c. You can see it across all the forums; everyone knows that mercs are the worst class in the game.. Why pay them $15 a month when there are so many other games to play?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Wrestle

[fujeo-finel]

Fix our survivability Bioware.

[fujeo-finel]

Anyway, I can't really think of anything else to add. Survivability and interrupts are the main problem for Arsenal in PvP, and I've given what I believe to be the best solution for that problem without breaking the spec in PvE or turning the spec into another Pyro instant-cast spamfest. A lot of people suggest added mobility is more important but I would rather the spec continue to use cast time abilities, as there is already a mobile spec available in Pyro.

[fujeo-finel]

Finally I can post again. Back from another 1 week ban. It's good to see so many people posting on the Merc forums again! I'll get around to addressing the new threads but first I'm going to talk about the 4 meter melee range.

 

Edit: Had a big post all done up, and then Firefox died on me. Serves me right not saving.

Edited July 9, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[fujeo-finel]

Mathematical proof that the 4 meter melee range is overpowered against ranged specs.

 

First some constants:

 

Melee range = 4 meters

In-combat run speed = 6 meters per second(mps) or 1 meter every 0.15 seconds

Average human reaction time = 0.2 seconds (http://www.humanbenchmark.com)

No abilities used. Gap openers and snares are countered by gap closers and vice versa, so I will simply be dealing with run speed.

 

Simple version is, given the above constants, it takes a ranged spec 0.6 seconds to get out of melee range, which is longer than the average human reaction time. Given equal run speed it is mathematically impossible for a range to get out of melee range before the melee starts giving chase. In the time it takes for the melee to react the range would have gained a mere 2 to 3 meters over the melee. I'll admit this sounds a tad hyperbolic, but not counting outside factors such as latency and frame rate, this is still mathematically true.

 

The problem is worse for casters, for obvious reasons. While the caster is attempting to get out of melee range they aren't doing any meaningful damage to the melee, essentially giving the melee free, unanswered hits until the caster stops to cast. This makes any kind of kiting for caster specs ultimately pointless, since you will be gimping your damage for no increase in damage avoidance, and using a gap opener to counter a melee merely running at you is logically unbalanced.

 

Elsewhere on these forums I've suggested that the range for melee abilities should be reduced to 2 meters. A 2 meter melee range would allow a caster to get out of melee range in 0.3 seconds, which is basically the same as the reaction time of the melee. Given a period where the melee cannot attack the caster, and a period where the caster will be immobile long enough for the melee to catch up, we get a situation where one cast from the caster is countered by one GCD from the melee, making the exchange a balanced, one for one wash. Therefore the difference in distance between the melee and the caster will be a factor of the difference in skill between the two players.

 

I'll also address the effectiveness of our knockbacks, which I had the chance to test during my absence. Testing both of them on a flat surface we gain:

 

Distance gained (rounded to nearest tenth of a meter):

Rocket Punch = 5.7 meters

Jet Boost = 15.7 meters

 

Subtracting the 4 meter melee range that melee don't have to worry about covering:

 

Actual distance gained (rounded to nearest tenth of a meter):

Rocket Punch = 1.7 meters

Jet Boost = 11.7 meters

 

And finally, the time it takes for a melee to cover the distance gained by running (rounded to nearest tenth of a second):

Rocket Punch = 0.3 seconds

Jet Boost with 50% snare = 4.0 seconds

 

As you can see, our knockbacks are a mixed bag, with Jet Boost allowing two free Tracer Missile casts every 20 seconds (assuming available resolve and it isn't countered by another gap closer), and Rocket Punch merely used for utility on high levels. Jet Boost justifies a 40% increase to resolve for players affected by it, but the distance gained from Rocket Punch doesn't justify a resolve increase at all. However it should be noted that an extra 7.5 to 8 meters (1.2-1.3 seconds of cast time) can be gained by strafing away from the target during the animations of both of these abilities, assuming no movement impairing effects. So for maximum benefit, make sure to use your knockbacks while free from any immobilizes (i.e. Force Leap).

Edited July 10, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[TyrellJonez]

Wow. somebody really cares for our class. homeboy is good for the game and community, Devs please take note.

 

Oh the subject at hand, I agree with fujol. Our survivability is what is making our class the bullseye for all other classes. Our defensive cooldowns are easy to outdps or overcome. If your not going to give mercs the utility to compete then at least boost what we have or give us a new toy. How bout when we hit death from above we are invulerable to melee for the duration? Maybe while Energy barrier is active, Unload OR Tracer Missle is un-interuptable? How bout a jetpack ability that causes a smokescreen effect that reduces everyones accuracy -40%? Something, anything!

 

Give us our crazy burst back or let us survive longer, but don't leave us on the back burner. =(

[fujeo-finel]

Wow. somebody really cares for our class. homeboy is good for the game and community, Devs please take note.

 

Thank you for your support!

Edited July 10, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[TheLoneSage]

Reminds me of the Arcane Mage problems back in WoW. (Very stationary main abilities. Got destroyed by Melee.)

 

Why not just do what Blizard did:

 

Allow Aresenal Specs to cast (3) abilities while moving. You still get the cast time, however you can be mobile and kite. You can then get your 3 TM's off.

[Kraavick]

Although the mage had many many more ways to get away from the melee, and when the mage DID get away the melee was dead due to arc mage burst being largely unparalleled. The mage would nova, run away, cast, warrior would charge, mage would blink, cast cast warrior dies. The merc has no real way to do this, as the CD on force leap is less than the jetboost (equal with talents, I think) and the only slow mercs have is when using unload. Maybe a passive speed increase would help? Although this would do nothing against carnage marauders (cant remember the name of the sent version)

[Sinsavz]

The merc has no real way to do this, as the CD on force leap is less than the jetboost (equal with talents, I think)

 

Actually, even that is underselling it. Marauders have leap on 12 or 15 sec, juggers on 15 sec but resettable with throw or push I forget which. Our jetboost is 20-30 sec depending on talents and gear, so it is always always more. Plus if we do somehow manage to establish range and try to get some casts in they have a ton of tools to nulify it, 45 sec cooldown vanish ffs :| and then they're right back at ya.

[fujeo-finel]

As for the recent fixes to Unload, I've actually started using it in PvP now (minus the snare). Fantastic damage potential, and more than makes up for the 3 second channel time. Officially my complaints about its usability in PvP have been put to rest, as I don't have any problem with the ability in it's current form.

 

Actually, even that is underselling it. Marauders have leap on 12 or 15 sec, juggers on 15 sec but resettable with throw or push I forget which. Our jetboost is 20-30 sec depending on talents and gear, so it is always always more. Plus if we do somehow manage to establish range and try to get some casts in they have a ton of tools to nulify it, 45 sec cooldown vanish ffs :| and then they're right back at ya.

 

There's also the fact that our gap openers are limited by resolve, whereas most melee gap closers aren't (minus Grapple and Force Pull, and I'm not even sure about those). So we can only at best use Jet Boost and Electro Dart in a single fight before the target goes immune, and at worst, we cant use any of our gap openers on a target already at full resolve.

 

Maybe a passive speed increase would help?

 

That's actually not a bad idea. Would have to be a 100% speed increase to cover melee range. Doesn't really comply with the philosophy of the spec though.

 

Allow Aresenal Specs to cast (3) abilities while moving. You still get the cast time, however you can be mobile and kite. You can then get your 3 TM's off.

 

Bit late for an edit, but I personally am against any kind of cast-while-moving mechanic, as it makes us even more vulnerable to interrupts. If we cant cancel our own casts in melee range via movement, then we have to use the Esc. button until stop-cast macros become available.

Edited July 15, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Choffware]

As for the recent fixes to Unload, I've actually started using it in PvP now (minus the snare). Fantastic damage potential, and more than makes up for the 3 second channel time. Officially my complaints about its usability in PvP have been put to rest, as I don't have any problem with the ability in it's current form.

 

.

 

Yes I agree here. Hits so hard sometimes I don't get to the HSM or Rail Shot. I only use it on a barrage proc but I stop my rotation to fire it every time it procs now. I actually took the two points out of the unload snare tallent and put it into the skill that lowers my healing scan cast time. Not sure if I'm going to notice a difference at all in utility.

 

Merc still needs better snares and roots to finally be balanced with other classes.

[fujeo-finel]

Amendment to the last few posts:

 

Rocket Punch can and should be used to interrupt Ravage.

[fujeo-finel]

Welp, I've got all my War-Hero gear, and Arsenal is still not up to par in PvP. I've given all the feedback I can on the spec, and now there's nothing left to talk about. I go back to Uni next month, so I won't be renewing my subscription, and even if I did, PvP with Arsenal is still a chore even with full WH.

 

You have two choices now BW. You can either try to maintain the status quo in order to please the majority of PvP'ers who rolled OP classes and keep their subscriptions, or you can make an attempt at balancing all classes for PVP, and turn this game into a real e-sport. I guarantee if you start working on PvP balance you'll be pulling in PvP'ers from all over the MMO world.

 

Just remember this. DPS isn't a factor that needs to be balanced for PvP, it's only a factor in PvE. If you want to balance all classes for PvP, balance DPS for PvE, and then follow this simple formula:

 

Melee Balance = Uptime + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

Range Balance = Mobility + Mitigation + Burst = Zero Sum

 

To reiterate the main points from this thread:

 

1. Melee range of 4 meters is OP against caster specs. Nerf melee range to 2 meters across all classes.

2. Remove auto-tracking for casted (non-channelled) abilities, then nerf interrupts.

3. Kiting is impossible for a caster spec with the current 4 meter melee range and disparity between melee gap closers and caster gap openers, so increase mitigation for non-mobile caster specs.

4. Buff Power Barrier to increase flat damage reduction by 4% per stack (interrupt duration reduction negligible).

5. Revert the Tracer Missile animation switch.

 

This is Rorshach, captain of the D5-Mantis and Champion of the Great Hunt, signing off.

Edited July 22, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[fujeo-finel]

I have now come to understand that the 4 meter melee range is not a problem for kiting, but rather the problem goes back to the lack of a workable snare. Currently we have two snares, and both of them are counter-intuitive to kiting. The snare on Jet Boost loses it's effectiveness because the knockback portion of the ability pushes the melee back to gap closer range. The snare on Unload is a complete wash since it only lasts until the channel is finished.

 

I'll spec for the snare on Unload again for more testing. It would be logical to only use the snare on Unload when the target is not already in melee range, and the snare on Jet Boost only after the target has used it's gap closer.

 

Edit: Actually I was right the first time because the difference between time-to-kite and TTK is too low. Either nerf melee range or nerf TTK.

Edited July 16, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Dyrankor]

Some decent points. arsenal is a kinda gimped one trick pony in pvp however it's not as bad as you make it out.

 

Heat, for example, is not an issue with arsenal. It's probably the most resource efficient spec I've played in the game, as long as you have plenty of crit and the 15% tracer crit set bonus which is essential. (I still see people using the 4 piece pvp eliminator...that is doing it wrong). You can still pump out unrivalled damage IF left alone, but yeah as you say the moment someone breaths near us we crumble like a piece of paper.

 

In my opinion one of the biggest reasons it seems that mercs are going backwards is because of the large number of fotm sentinels and assassins that people are rolling now. They've always torn us apart, but if there was only 1 or 2 in a warzone then it was manageable. Now you have 5+ on the enemy team in every single wz and it's really showing us up.

 

YES TO EVERYTHING. Wow.

[NoTomorrow]

Guys, your problems are multiple. Not only those you have stated. With my sniper i usually whipe the floor with every dps commando regardless of his spec, gear and skill. They cannot win any ranged dps duels against me.

The fact that you are being destroyed by sentinels, thats just icing the cake.

 

Here is what i propose, while you have the bubble on, melee cannot leap to you.

Edited July 15, 2012 by NoTomorrow