Arsenal PvP Feedback

[fujeo-finel]

After thinking a little deeper on my suggestion for Barrage, I'm going to drop it in favour of another idea I've had, because there will be no way to balance the proc rate between too much burst in PvP, and not enough Unloading in PvE (and thus, more TM spam).

 

So my new suggestion is this:

 

Change Barrage to give Tracer Missile a 33%/66%/100% chance to lower the activation time of your next Unload by 0.5 seconds. Stacks 3 times.

 

Change Riddle to remove the cooldown on Unload.

 

The precedent is already there for TM to power up other skills (though not necessarily applying an alacrity buff), as well as removing the cooldown on a channelled ability (Madness and Force Lightning). This change will stress PvE heat management a bit, as essentially you will be firing 3 TM's per 6 seconds and not 2, while dumping less heat via channel time. So there may have to be an extra method to dump heat given this rotation, which, at the time of this writing, I haven't decided on.

 

Edit: Unload itself, without a cooldown attached to it, would serve a better heat dump for more damage than Rapid Shots in PvE. A 1.5 second channel Unload for a spike in DPS, and a 3 second channel Unload for heat management. Given that any 3 second Unload will proc Terminal Velocity (provided enough crit), as well as venting 3 seconds worth of heat (dropping the heat cost of Unload to -4 heat at peak cooling), DPS wouldn't suffer as much during cooling phases if Unload did not have a cooldown. Whether that is a pro or con I'll leave up to the PvE community to decide.

Edited May 31, 2012 by fujeo-finel
Unload heat management

[fujeo-finel]

Of course, if my suspicions are correct about expertise not working correctly in warzone's for Arsenal, any immediate change could prop us beyond balanced if expertise is confirmed to be not working and then fixed (I'm still trying to gather evidence for this).

 

Therefore, the most important issues to address for Arsenal PvP at the moment is the casting delays after running/stopping and problems with expertise in WZ's (if any).

[fujeo-finel]

If knockbacks fill resolve, then interrupts should also fill resolve. It's a bit silly to have an ability interrupted, and then be stunned over and over again. Edited May 31, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[T-Assassin]

If knockbacks fill resolve, then interrupts should also fill resolve.

 

 

 

i can support that. makes sense.

[fujeo-finel]

Experimenting with stacking alacrity, hoping to get TM down to 1.3 seconds. Results seem promising so far at 11% alacrity (9% from talents).

[fujeo-finel]

Bumping this for no particular reason other than getting to the first page again. Back from a 1 week ban, getting back to PvP.

[T-Assassin]

Bumping this for no particular reason other than getting to the first page again. Back from a 1 week ban, getting back to PvP.

 

LOL!!!

 

i'm tearing it up in PvP!! the 250+ Imp Fleet population helps!!

 

(but, i'm also a Merc/PT )

[fujeo-finel]

Traded 100 expertise for the 2 set PvE bonus and doing quite well for damage. Alacrity is at 14% (with the alacrity proc) atm and is helping a fair bit against interrupts. Generally speaking, against other ranged classes, if I can juke the interrupt I can easily out-burst them down. Against melee (not including maras), it could go either way after a juked interrupt, but against maras you really need every GCD for damage or you'll die. Unless there's a healer around you won't have time for fake-casting or even cleansing snares.

[fujeo-finel]

Something to check on: distance gained from our knockbacks compared to the amount of resolve they fill up. Supposedly the rate at which stuns fill resolve is equal to the amount of time the player is out of action (4 second stun equals 40% resolve). Therefore it would be logical to assume that a knockback would take a melee out of melee range for an amount of time equal to the amount of resolve said knockback fills up (which we all know is complete nonsense, unless the melee is knocked off a cliff or a higher level, too situational to affect resolve). Of course, this would do nothing against a ranged attacker. Edited June 17, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[fujeo-finel]

Not essential, but I wouldn't mind seeing a talent in the Arsenal tree that increases the damage of Rail Shot on targets at or below 20% health, turning it into an execute.

[fujeo-finel]

Just noticed this, cancelling your own cast doesn't cancel the GCD. Reporting this as a bug.

 

Edit: only happens when I cancel my cast via strafing left or right. Backpeddling cancels the GCD.

Edited June 18, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[fujeo-finel]

Defensive wise, Arsenal, being a predominately caster oriented spec, needs one of two characteristics to be viable in a PvP setting:

 

1. The ability to kite melee

2. High mitigation

 

Both of these characteristics are, on a balance level, mutually exclusive. If you have the mobility to kite melee effectively you can't expect to have the mitigation of a caster tank. Inversely, the less mobile a spec is, the more damage it needs to mitigate. The balance between these two characteristics is what constitutes defence for a caster spec (and indeed, ranged classes in general). Generally speaking, low mitigation specs have high mobility, while high mitigation specs have low mobility. Note that this rule does not need apply to melee, as melee offensive capabilities are tied to mobility, whereas range offense is rarely ever tired to mobility in the same way as melee, only defense is.

 

Kiting melee is done by one of two ways:

 

1. Maintaining higher mobility over the target

2. Controlling the target

 

As kiting works most effectively when your DPS is tied to instant casts, caster specs are gimped from the start by the fact that you need to remain still to DPS. So usually their ability to kite is often tied to controlling the opponent instead via snares, stuns or CC. Control-wise we have very minimal snaring ability, 2 knockbacks that affect resolve, a 1 minute CD stun, and a general purpose CC on a 45 second CD. Being that our only effective snare is tied to a knockback makes it the only snare in the game that cannot be applied at full resolve.

 

Mitigation wise, Arsenal, a heavy armor spec, fits the caster tank archetype of high mitigation with low mobility quite well. However this is not the case in-game, as Mercs, and especially Arsenal, currently have the lowest PvP survivability of any class in the game. Rather than turn Arsenal into another spec based on mobile and instant DPS, another possible route to improve Merc PvP is to increase mitigation across the whole class and give it a caster tank niche in Arsenal not currently available from any other spec. However, increasing mitigation does not solve the problem with interrupts, only in the fact that you might survive longer after you have been interrupted.

 

Given the philosophy behind the Arsenal spec of powering up abilities via Tracer Missile, the talent Power Barrier can effectively be used to increase Arsenal mitigation, as well as provide a way to mitigate interrupt lockout times. Before 1.2, Power Barrier reduced damage by 2% per stack, maxing out at 10% flat damage reduction. This nerf could be reverted, possibly even buffed to 20%. The talent could also possibly reduce the lockout duration of interrupted abilities by a certain amount per stack. The idea would be that the ideal time to engage an Arsenal Merc is before he/she gains Power Barrier stacks, but as the Merc manages to get off TM casts while under pressure, the Merc is rewarded with higher lockout and damage mitigation.

Edited June 20, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[fujeo-finel]

Amendment to last few posts: The talented knockback on Rocket Punch doesn't even take a melee out of melee range.

 

Edit: Just confirmed in-game that the snare from Jet Boost will not be applied to someone with a full resolve bar, making it the ONLY snare in the game not usable on full resolve (as far as I know).

Edited June 20, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[clearsighted]

Good stuff, Fujeo.

[fujeo-finel]

Good stuff, Fujeo.

 

Thanks for your support.

[HeVans_]

Pyro Merc has a lot more viability than arsenal, more so in 1.3. I think at this point we have to just accept that arsenal is a PvE spec. Tracer missile is easily one of the worst pvp skills in the game.

 

There is a build that I have been considering for when 1.3 comes out (just to clarify I have 2 sets of war hero gear on my merc, I have played my fair share of all 3 specs in pvp), and that is a hybrid of arsenal and pyrotech. Don't hate on me just hear me out:

 

Take your cookie cutter Pyro Merc PvP build:

 

0/10/31 (this is widely accepted as the only pyro spec possible because of the pushback reduction being so essential)

 

Then consider the 1.3 change, an additional 30% armor pen to unload and railshot. This means that in Combustible Gas cylinder we would now have 60% pen on railshot and 30% pen on unload. Right seems cool.

 

Now, keeping this skill build, put your HVGS on, yes you lose the ability to proc a railshot every 6 seconds but your railshots now have 95% armor pen every 15 seconds, your unloads now have 65% armor pen and your thermals have 35% armor pen. With some dps testing on the PTS, in full war hero eliminator gear my railshots hit for an average of 5.2k crits on a target with 1200 expertise. This is WITHOUT relics or adrenals being used.

 

Using the normal pyro build in 1.3, with 60% railshot pen, my railshots crit for just over 4.3k.

 

Mercs burst damage is very tasty in 1.3, basically. Don't just assume that just because you cant use a full arsenal spec, that arsenal is COMPLETELY useless in pvp. Try being more experimental with your builds.

 

Don't hate on me for talking about pyro, I am just trying to calm people's panick of a lack of arsenal fixes by suggesting random crap.

Edited June 20, 2012 by HeVans_

[Hartburn]

Pyro Merc has a lot more viability than arsenal, more so in 1.3. I think at this point we have to just accept that arsenal is a PvE spec. Tracer missile is easily one of the worst pvp skills in the game.

 

There is a build that I have been considering for when 1.3 comes out (just to clarify I have 2 sets of war hero gear on my merc, I have played my fair share of all 3 specs in pvp), and that is a hybrid of arsenal and pyrotech. Don't hate on me just hear me out:

 

Take your cookie cutter Pyro Merc PvP build:

 

0/10/31 (this is widely accepted as the only pyro spec possible because of the pushback reduction being so essential)

 

Then consider the 1.3 change, an additional 30% armor pen to unload and railshot. This means that in Combustible Gas cylinder we would now have 60% pen on railshot and 30% pen on unload. Right seems cool.

 

Now, keeping this skill build, put your HVGS on, yes you lose the ability to proc a railshot every 6 seconds but your railshots now have 95% armor pen every 15 seconds, your unloads now have 65% armor pen and your thermals have 35% armor pen. With some dps testing on the PTS, in full war hero eliminator gear my railshots hit for an average of 5.2k crits on a target with 1200 expertise. This is WITHOUT relics or adrenals being used.

 

Using the normal pyro build in 1.3, with 60% railshot pen, my railshots crit for just over 4.3k.

 

Mercs burst damage is very tasty in 1.3, basically. Don't just assume that just because you cant use a full arsenal spec, that arsenal is COMPLETELY useless in pvp. Try being more experimental with your builds.

 

Don't hate on me for talking about pyro, I am just trying to calm people's panick of a lack of arsenal fixes by suggesting random crap.

 

I'm sure the burst would be mice, but the problem is your turning Pyro into a turret spec with no ability to kite. It would be great in PvE, but losing a lot of your mobility in PvP would be a bad thing I think. That's the problem with Arsenal as is.

[T-Assassin]

Pyro Merc has a lot more viability than arsenal, more so in 1.3. I think at this point we have to just accept that arsenal is a PvE spec. Tracer missile is easily one of the worst pvp skills in the game.

 

There is a build that I have been considering for when 1.3 comes out (just to clarify I have 2 sets of war hero gear on my merc, I have played my fair share of all 3 specs in pvp), and that is a hybrid of arsenal and pyrotech. Don't hate on me just hear me out:

 

Take your cookie cutter Pyro Merc PvP build:

 

0/10/31 (this is widely accepted as the only pyro spec possible because of the pushback reduction being so essential)

 

Then consider the 1.3 change, an additional 30% armor pen to unload and railshot. This means that in Combustible Gas cylinder we would now have 60% pen on railshot and 30% pen on unload. Right seems cool.

 

Now, keeping this skill build, put your HVGS on, yes you lose the ability to proc a railshot every 6 seconds but your railshots now have 95% armor pen every 15 seconds, your unloads now have 65% armor pen and your thermals have 35% armor pen. With some dps testing on the PTS, in full war hero eliminator gear my railshots hit for an average of 5.2k crits on a target with 1200 expertise. This is WITHOUT relics or adrenals being used.

 

Using the normal pyro build in 1.3, with 60% railshot pen, my railshots crit for just over 4.3k.

 

Mercs burst damage is very tasty in 1.3, basically. Don't just assume that just because you cant use a full arsenal spec, that arsenal is COMPLETELY useless in pvp. Try being more experimental with your builds.

 

Don't hate on me for talking about pyro, I am just trying to calm people's panick of a lack of arsenal fixes by suggesting random crap.

 

in theory, your idea is sound. in reality, it does not work.

 

i logged my BH into PTS, to do some testing. Full BM (WH ear).

 

i did NOT use any stims, adrenals, relics...NOTHING. just a straight fight.

 

i used the following "pvp" rotation, for testing purposes: *EDIT* i included UL for ArP DPS evidence vs cylinders.

 

{CGC} IM, RS, UL, TD, RaS, RaS...UL, RS, RaS, RaS...

 

the ONLY difference in rotation was, since no CGC proc, i used IM in front of RS.

 

{HVGC} IM, RS, UL, TD, RaS, RaS...UL, IM, RS, RaS, RaS...

 

not only was the HVGC ~80 DPS lower, it was not as "bursty" according to ACT's graphs.

 

2 more things:

 

Rail Shot(RS) is ~800-1200 DPS higher than all other attacks (minus Power Shot...but i did not use that for "pvp" purposes), why the frank would you NOT want to use it ~6sec? in fact, that is MORE bursty than every 12sec.

 

next, CGC proc is CONSISTANTLY my 2nd HIGHEST damage, behind Power Shot...Rapid Shot for the "pvp" test.

 

there is no reason for a Merc/PT to use HVGC...EVER.

Edited June 20, 2012 by T-Assassin

[fujeo-finel]

Specs don't necessarily need to be bogged down with PvE only labels. Casting as well, contrary to popular opinion, isn't necessarily a non-viable method of DPS in PvP. Bioware's metrics, and posts on this forum both confirm that Arsenal DPS is fine, and I personally agree with this. The problem is that DPS isn't translating well in a PvP setting, but thanks to the completely braindead mechanic of auto-tracking, casting isn't necessarily the blame for this, as I'll elaborate on further. But first I'd like to talk about interrupts.

 

If Arsenal DPS is fine, what else could be the problem with Arsenal viability in PvP? The two biggest hindrances to Arsenal in PvP is it's survivability and the proliferation of interrupts. Should a caster spec be so gimped by such a common mechanic? A melee player once told me that melee have interrupts because range shouldn't be able to attack them in melee range if the melee cant attack you at range. Sounds reasonable doesn't it? The problem starts when the range has no way to effectively kite a melee to get away from those interrupts. Kiting in this game is basically limited to specs with instant cast DPS, which makes interrupts almost worthless against them. So now we have a situation where the specs that are the most susceptible to interrupts are also the most vulnerable to them.

 

Only a small fraction of the 24 specs in this game are reliant on heavy casting. This begs the question, why are interrupts so prolific? The answer to this question is auto-tracking. Auto-tracking turns casting into braindead button mash-fests all about cramming the most DPS into the shortest possible timeframe. If an Arsenal Merc manages to juke an interrupt, all it then has to do is spam DPS into the melee and the melee can't do anything about it (outside of stuns) except burst you down. There is no way for a melee to manoeuvre around the Merc to interrupt it's casting. In certain other MMO's it was possible for a melee to interrupt a cast by running through the caster. So kiting for casters wasn't just about avoiding damage, it was also about making sure you got your casts off before the melee could out-flank you. Unfortunately in SWTOR, auto-tracking not only removes this burden for the caster, but due to bugs in the game engine (casting delays after moving, 4 meter melee range(not a bug)), also encourages such braindead gameplay, to which the melee have been given such short cooldown interrupts to deal with.

Edited June 21, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[Gyronamics]

0/10/31 (this is widely accepted as the only pyro spec possible because of the pushback reduction being so essential)

 

Saying it doesn't make it true.

 

Turreting in pvp with no defensive bonus to doing so sucks. Leave it to gunslingers and snipers to do ranged dps under fire, they really do have defences to do that.

[oldshatterhand]

Why do you need pushback reduction? Mobility is the biggest advantage of Pyro, trying to cast unoad/powershot while being shot at is a very bad idea. I rarely use PS, 90% of my PPA procs are from unload. If i get shot while unloading/powershooting I just interrupt the cast and either use LoS if the enemy is ranged, or kite melee while spamming rapid shots until TD/RS is off cooldown. Unload doesn't do that much damage as in arsenal spec, so I would advise using it as an instant cast (since the PPA procs at the begginging of the channeling) if you have somebody on you. Edited June 21, 2012 by oldshatterhand

[fujeo-finel]

Yea ok guys, take it somewhere else, this is an Arsenal thread.

[T-Assassin]

Yea ok guys, take it somewhere else, this is an Arsenal thread.

 

yeah, sorry about that...

 

i couldn't ignore the HVGC vs CGC info tho...

 

it just doesn't add up.

 

 

Fix Arsenal in PvP!!! (<---back on subject )

[fujeo-finel]

The fact that melee range is a whopping 4 meters makes it completely impossible for a caster spec to kite a melee. In other certain MMO's it was possible for casters to kite melee just outside of melee range in order to avoid damage (and interrupts) at such a close range. Unfortunately this just isn't possible in SWTOR without a workable snare. Players of melee classes tell me they need that massive 4 meter range to compensate for latency problems. My opinion is that a 4 meter range workaround is too much of an advantage against range classes.

 

Also, the auto-tracking mechanic may have lowered the skill floor for caster DPS specs, but unfortunately has also lowered the skill ceiling for those same specs.This mechanic, as well as delays in casting after strafing, has effectively turned the art of caster DPS into a game of 'juke the interrupt and then spam damage until one of you is dead', with no emphasis on positioning or avoiding damage.

 

Now I don't know if it's the intention of Bioware to narrow the skill variation of caster DPS specs (I'm beginning to suspect their philosophy on PvP balance is one of a macro oriented perspective, while forgetting about the individual player). But removing auto-casting and cutting melee range in half would be a big step in promoting more skill oriented gameplay. It would also remove the need for such short cooldowns on interrupts, as melee would then be able to out-flank casters to interrupt their casts. However, such a change is too big for a mid-game patch cycle, and would have to wait for an expansion.

Edited June 25, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[T-Assassin]

The fact that melee range is a whopping 4 meters makes it completely impossible for a caster spec to kite a melee. In other certain MMO's it was possible for casters to kite melee just outside of melee range in order to avoid damage (and interrupts) at such a close range. Unfortunately this just isn't possible in SWTOR wihtout a workable snare. Players of melee classes tell me they need that massive 4 meter range to compensate for latency problems. My opinion is that a 4 meter range workaround is too much of an advantage against range classes.

 

Also, the auto-tracking mechanic may have lowered the skill floor for caster DPS specs, but unfortunately has also lowered the skill ceiling for those same specs.This mechanic, as well as delays in casting after strafing, has effectively turned the art of caster DPS into a game of 'juke the interrupt and then spam damage until one of you is dead', with no emphasis on positioning or avoiding damage.

 

Now I don't know if it's the intention of Bioware to narrow the skill variation of caster DPS specs (I'm beginning to suspect their philosophy on PvP balance is one of a macro oriented perspective, while forgetting about the individual player). But removing auto-casting and cutting melee range in half would be a big step in promoting more skill oriented gameplay. It would also remove the need for such short cooldowns on interrupts, as melee would then be able to out-flank casters to interrupt their casts. However, such a change is too big for a mid-game patch cycle, and would have to wait for an expansion.

 

i believe a root would solve this...or, giving Merc an ability similar to Hydraulic Overrides...

 

that is Arsenals HUGE problem(s).

 

lack of mobility or easily interruptable as a caster class.