PuG vs. Premade

[OpenSorce]

The idea of pitting PUGs against Premades is just ridiculous. Who at BIoWare would ever think it was a good idea? Other games have very effective and intelligent systems in place to prevent this. Of course, this only works well with cross-server Warzones... and we don't have that yet.

 

But yes, this particular form of imbalance is the primary reason I proudly leave 5 out of 10 warzones. I recommend everyone else do the same. Let BioWare see the data showing solo players tend to quit against Premades (causing the Premade to win too fast and get fewer rewards) and maybe they'll fix it.

[RachelAnne]

The idea of pitting PUGs against Premades is just ridiculous. Who at BIoWare would ever think it was a good idea? Other games have very effective and intelligent systems in place to prevent this. Of course, this only works well with cross-server Warzones... and we don't have that yet.

 

But yes, this particular form of imbalance is the primary reason I proudly leave 5 out of 10 warzones. I recommend everyone else do the same. Let BioWare see the data showing solo players tend to quit against Premades (causing the Premade to win too fast and get fewer rewards) and maybe they'll fix it.

 

Which MMO does this currently?

 

Wow does not, thats my status 2011 - they also have no solo ranked....

 

Would be intrested in hearing a few examples, besides League of Legends (thats no an MMO I know )

[OpenSorce]

Which MMO does this currently?

 

Wow does not, thats my status 2011 - they also have no solo ranked....

 

Would be intrested in hearing a few examples, besides League of Legends (thats no an MMO I know )

 

League of Legends was the game I had in mind, but I thought WoW did do this. It takes longer to queue when you have a larger party, a Blizzard GM told me it was because the system was trying to match us with an equal sized group. I have a screen shot of the conversation around somewhere...

[RachelAnne]

League of Legends was the game I had in mind, but I thought WoW did do this. It takes longer to queue when you have a larger party, a Blizzard GM told me it was because the system was trying to match us with an equal sized group. I have a screen shot of the conversation around somewhere...

 

No need to look for the screen, yes I do know that statement as well.

 

Unfortunately it seemed to not work that good in 2011, I dont know... but I tend to run into groups of the same server a lot. Not always, not as much as at Tor - but it happened

 

What I found so sad at wow, was the missing solo ranked - like League of Legends has.

[blackadda]

The issue is fixed by CROSS SERVER queues OR adding 8 man queues..

 

The results of that will level the playing field.

 

Either

A> All 4 man premades on both factions always get lumped with 4 random and often useless puggers (because of cross server this becomes much more likely)

 

B> All Premades become 8 man, guaranteeing the ability to exclude ungeared puggers from your 8 man team.

 

 

 

Right now if your on a low pop server with higher numbers on your faction queing for PVP, you end up consistantly facing what is essentially an 8 man premade from the lower population faction.

 

So the match becomes a complete faceroll 8 geared players all on voice comms vs 4 geared players on voice comms and 2-4 ungeared, unorganised players (sub 600 expertise) who often dont know the basics.

 

This creates a "Rich get Richer" environment, cos the ungeared puggers get stomped so badly they never learn the objectives of each warzone..and the organised 4 man playing with them gets steadily outgeared because they are so consistantly handicapped.

 

It amazes me that ungeared PVE'ers magically expect theyll compete in a game when they essentially cut their effectivness to about 1/2 by not buying PVP gear.... a Geared PVPer will kill 2 ungeared PVERS with ease making the above 4premade+4pug vs 2x4man premades even worse.

 

Ungeared puggers turn an 8vs8 into an 8 vs 6 very quickly because 4 ungeared players only add up to 2 geared ones.

 

BW is obviously aware of the issue, its been said cross server is "Coming Soon" as is 8 man... untill then the only hope is some of the terribads actually listen and at least BUY PVP GEAR. Even a good player cant afford to give the opposition a 35%-50% advantage and those not in pvp gear are generally not good players...

Edited May 8, 2012 by blackadda

[Sookster]

On my server, there's usually just one warzone happening at a time in level 50 bracket, there aren't enough 50's queuing these days and my guild doesn't premade as often anymore so I queue solo and end up facing the same damn republic premade pretty often.

[Ahebish]

quitters never win. pugs can beat premades and compete with them... but not when your pug is filled with whinny quitters who spend more time crying in ops chat than they do playing. people stop playing and have 6 people camping their one turret as soon as other side caps two and then wonder why they almost always lose.

 

oh and just so you "oh woe is me" types know, nothing is stopping you and three of your friends from queing up as a premade.

 

 

I'm glad I play annonmously on my alt... if I played on my main... I wouldn't have anyone to Q with since everyone hates me on my server on my main.

 

And people wonder why I was nearly unbeatable 1v1 on my main. Because I was forced to learn to play that way. I blame the community for me being good in PVP on my main!

 

It's all your fault!.

 

[mguitar]

I have to agree with the OP here 100%.

 

Saturday I spent about 10 hours in warzones. Every single game we were up against the same guild of premade reps. Out of that 10 hours I probably spent 9 hours and 59 minutes eating dirt. Even when we had a full team of the best geared and talented emps on our server, they completely wiped the floor with us every single game. We didn't just lose.. we were consistently decimated, completely and utterly. Never capped the first door in Void. Alderran was always 600-0, Huttball 6-0, and the new wz was always 100%-0%. With all the focus fire no one, even the tanks and healers, could survive long enough to contribute much at all. Which of course meant I was averaging about 35 commendations per match.. painful when you're trying to gear up a new 50 in half BM / half recruit gear. We had one lucky huttball match, so I sat at 1/3 on my daily after an entire day of pvp.. it was just.. pathetic. I was so pissed off I almost broke my keyboard.. so yeah.. I know where the OP is coming from. My girlfriend even asked me why I would pay to play a game that gets me THAT angry. I honestly didn't know what to say, she's right. When a game is pissing off it's customers so bad that they have to quit to catch some fresh air and chill out, the developers are definitely doing something wrong. These situations simply should not happen, it's inexcusable. Put the premades against other premades.. period!

[Khoraji]

There is nothing wrong with pre-mades going against pugs.

 

The only advantage pre-mades have over pugs is the possibility of vent. Which isn't always used and when it is, can be more distracting than useful.

[BigRedBaron]

I COMPLETELY SUPPORT THIS MESSAGE..

 

 

PLZ PLZ make sure that there is a a way to make the 2 teams close to the same gear/skill level especially in regards to premades vs pugs. The low server populations have premades rolling pugs or even the other factions premades all day. This is supported by the fact that they changed it from wins required to 6 smashing ur face against a premade attempts required. Premades are always going to be stronger fighting units even when carrying one or 2 undergeared players. Anyone that diputes this fact is being a bit ridiculous.

 

Premades are like a sports team or a small tactical combat unit. Even if given equal skill level and equal gear {WHICH NEVER HAPPENS in SWTOR with premades vs pugs} the "team/unit" given more time to train together and work on their routines and movements will ALWAYS perform better than the team not given time. Now imaginve if the team that was given practice was allowed to talk to each other during practice and the event and the other team had no communication... The team with communication and practice will win everytime.

 

Most premades are also going to have the right composition, have a healer, be more familiar with the game in general because of the number of hours played and most likely have a little more skill than the average pugger. Because given the oppurtunity premades normally like to bring their best players. I know mine does.

 

PLZ let cross server WZ's bring more even warzones as well. Pugs and premades alike will both agree a closer match is a funner match. This leads to more subs and resubbers and profit for all!

[OpenSorce]

There is nothing wrong with pre-mades going against pugs.

 

The only advantage pre-mades have over pugs is the possibility of vent. Which isn't always used and when it is, can be more distracting than useful.

 

I'm sorry, your post shows a bit of naivety. Premades don't just happen, you know. Nor do people just fall into the same vent server. Nine out of Ten times if you are facing a Premade it is not their first WZ together.

 

The advantage of a Premade is that they are and have been working together with quite a bit of practice. They are organized and communicating well. They also will have a better group composition and if they have been doing this for any length of time, most certainly better gear. Any one of the factors I've just mentioned gives them a huge advantage. They have them all.

 

Starting to see the bigger picture here? A Premade will dominate a PUG 99 times out of 100.

[DarthSabreth]

I have to agree with the OP here 100%.

 

Saturday I spent about 10 hours in warzones. Every single game we were up against the same guild of premade reps. Out of that 10 hours I probably spent 9 hours and 59 minutes eating dirt. Even when we had a full team of the best geared and talented emps on our server, they completely wiped the floor with us every single game. We didn't just lose.. we were consistently decimated, completely and utterly. Never capped the first door in Void. Alderran was always 600-0, Huttball 6-0, and the new wz was always 100%-0%. With all the focus fire no one, even the tanks and healers, could survive long enough to contribute much at all. Which of course meant I was averaging about 35 commendations per match.. painful when you're trying to gear up a new 50 in half BM / half recruit gear. We had one lucky huttball match, so I sat at 1/3 on my daily after an entire day of pvp.. it was just.. pathetic. I was so pissed off I almost broke my keyboard.. so yeah.. I know where the OP is coming from. My girlfriend even asked me why I would pay to play a game that gets me THAT angry. I honestly didn't know what to say, she's right. When a game is pissing off it's customers so bad that they have to quit to catch some fresh air and chill out, the developers are definitely doing something wrong. These situations simply should not happen, it's inexcusable. Put the premades against other premades.. period!

 

I agree with you, i myself have temporarilly retired from PVP on my main and have gone back to lvling alts. when some guilds are farming wz's i myself am at fault for que'ing up. by doing so i am feeding the lion and making them stronger, spinning my wheels in the dirt for hours getting little to no benifit for it is just silly. what will get me back into WZ's?

 

1. cross server que's

2. group que's seperated from the solo ques EG "they do this when they open up the 8 man rateds."

[PloGreen]

I'm sorry, your post shows a bit of naivety. Premades don't just happen, you know. Nor do people just fall into the same vent server. Nine out of Ten times if you are facing a Premade it is not their first WZ together.

 

The advantage of a Premade is that they are and have been working together with quite a bit of practice. They are organized and communicating well. They also will have a better group composition and if they have been doing this for any length of time, most certainly better gear. Any one of the factors I've just mentioned gives them a huge advantage. They have them all.

 

Starting to see the bigger picture here? A Premade will dominate a PUG 99 times out of 100.

 

I dont disagree with this as I play in a 4 man premade often. The problem is low server pops and no cross server warzones. But there are no rateds yet and low server populations on many servers. They cant seperate the queues at the moment because of this so what can you do? The only thing you can do is the same as they are doing, form one of your own. It's not the best solution and not the ideal one but that is literally the best way you can deal with it at the moment.

 

If they run rateds we need cross server pvp, server merge or free xfers.

 

Premades do stomp pugs most of the time, but I see just as many premades on the opposite side when I play in a pre because of the low server pop.

[PloGreen]

I agree with you, i myself have temporarilly retired from PVP on my main and have gone back to lvling alts. when some guilds are farming wz's i myself am at fault for que'ing up. by doing so i am feeding the lion and making them stronger, spinning my wheels in the dirt for hours getting little to no benifit for it is just silly. what will get me back into WZ's?

 

1. cross server que's

2. group que's seperated from the solo ques EG "they do this when they open up the 8 man rateds."

 

Thats actually fair and its what both pres and pugs want really.

[flem]

Yes. This exactly. I know the names of all the good players. And I know their damned guild names too.

Um, so does every person who PvPs a lot.

[Pretty_Flacko]

During my play hours there is always the same republic guild/players playing together. And with Imps outweighing Pubs on my server, there are always bads in green gear on the imp team. But i still enjoy pvp because i can still put significant dps to the point where I am considered a threat to the Republic and always get focus fired. Compliment taken:rolleyes:

[necromag]

As a solo que player not only do i have to contend with rather strong opposite faction premades all to often which result in inevitable losses but now just to make matters worse 3 of the 4 warzones available result in getting roflstomped by same faction premades too.

 

I am not a mediocre player by a long shot but i have now put pvp on hold for the foreseeable future until i can find a suitable guild on my server or just move on,it's just become somewhat unbearable.

 

I used to think that Bioware was the biggest culprit here with their failure to implement cross server wz's and use same faction matches as a slack excuse not to,but lately i can't help but think that some players are to blame partly too now for completely killing off the fun and competitiveness.

 

Sure there are individuals who would love for their premade to face off against another for the sake of a good match,but most now tend to be happy enough to just roflstomp pugs,collect their medals and /lol emote folks from the other team at their spawn....where's the competitiveness in that?

 

My solution would be simple: disable the abilty to group que for wz's until rateds are introduced,you guys want competiton? how about you play against each other sometimes?

[ATango]

A premade in vent or TS always has the advantage due to focus firing and coordination. PUGs damage is mostly scattered and coordination is determined by what each of the 8 players thinks they should do.

 

I am a soloist so i know how it is to face premades. When they want you to die, you die. Our health pool isn't that great and with 3 or more players hitting on you, you will die.

 

If you know a great group of players I suggest forming a premade group of your own. Vent and TS servers are so cheap nowadays with 4-8 players it shouldn't cost much. Some providers have a clan pay system where contributions can be placed into a common pool of funds and the monthly payment is pulled from there. It will be good practice for rateds and you get to communicate directly with the players.

 

There is no reason to get angry over premades when the solutions are available to you and is just a matter of taking the steps to counter it.

[DarthKhaos]

quitters never win. pugs can beat premades and compete with them... but not when your pug is filled with whinny quitters who spend more time crying in ops chat than they do playing. people stop playing and have 6 people camping their one turret as soon as other side caps two and then wonder why they almost always lose.

 

oh and just so you "oh woe is me" types know, nothing is stopping you and three of your friends from queing up as a premade.

Preach on!

 

^

 

The benefit of a premade is potentially 4 people on Voice Chat with 4 Randoms.

 

However, what happens is when a Pug sees a Premade on their server, they may drop group instantly which just leads to the group inevitably losing as they are constantly playing the numbers catch up.

 

I've been in LOTS of PUGs that beat premades because I was fortunate to have the game put me with players that understand basic concepts and well known strategies rather than mindlessly playing TDM away from the objective.

 

Premades, minus maybe Huttball, struggle if they get stuck with 4 Team Mates that are undergeared (You know, th e "BMs Easy to get so i'll stick with my level 40 greens instead of buying recruit gear" people) or generally unable to use skills of their class (Maras that can't even hit Undying Rage...ever, for example).

 

PUGs just need to tough it out and play the game to the end, they may actually be surprised at the results.

Although it was funny one time some friends decided to queue up and their friends wanted in and we had 6 people. so we made 2 groups of 3 and queued up @ the same time. We ended up in the same Huttball on opposite sides. We were laughing HARD on vent and talking smack when we killed each other. Fun times. And no this wasn't Empire on a heavy server. It was Republic on a light populated server where Empire outnumber them.

[Captyellowbeard]

take my server for example 8 man pub pre-maid all day and everyone of them has atleast 6 or more War hero gear and that's alot of war hero at this time of the game pretty much 24/7 pvp , so you take that and put empire pugs in starting blue pvp gear and champ or some battle master and they could be the best pvper's in the world but they are not gonna win but only get stomped in the ground all day no matter what, no change in tactics , no moral boosting , no nothing will help you win against that unless you do the same, which is only possible if you find a group of people that have the same amount of spare time like those lifers and then you might win.

[Samcuu]

I don't really think premade's are the issue here. The problem really is the low server population. Everyone is on a level playing field, if you are getting beat by a premade then make one of your own. The real issue is like I said before the low server populations. For example my guild pvp's a lot. We almost always have a premade going and in most instances 2 full groups. Well in times past we would try to get an 8 man que, but it would never work. Recently though because so many players have gone from the game an 8 man que with my guild happens probably 75% of the time if not more. Seems like there are only 2 different groups of 8 teams doing wz's for the republic on my server at any given time, which obviously makes it easy. You don't all get into the same wz the first time leave wz que again and the next time it's an 8 man premade.

 

I'm all for merging the server's not only for pvp but because for me leveling an alt is useless. There is never anyone on to do FP's or heroics on any planet and with only about 15 people on the republic fleet it seems hopeless, unless of course you want to roll an imp alt then you have no problem...which is just LOL because that is leading to even worse faction imbalance.... smh BW you have a lot of splaining to do....

 

oh and just an FYI if you wanna join up with some other people from the game in voice chat you can always use skype...it's free!!

Edited May 9, 2012 by Samcuu

[SammuelSK]

A couple thoughts.

 

1) Removing the ability to group queue with the current state of servers would in the end hurt nobody. The premade players would continue to be able to play matches, albiet on their own, and puggers would be more likely to queue up at all. The current state of PVP in ToR is dreadful, and getting worse every day as NOTHING kills a servers population faster when it comes to PVP than the current status quo.

 

2) My experiances in WoW and AoC have taught me that in general Premades are not about having a fair and interesting fight, they are about getting gear as quickly and most effeciantly as possible. Using WoW as an example that would often mean that premades would drop the match if facing another organised group. Premade groups have their own place, and should strictly be kept in only rated/organised situations as having a system in place where you are rewarding small groups of players at the cost of your general population.. well, that, again, doesn't lead to strong and healthy server populations.

[TrenchWar]

join a guild ? be appart of a pre-made? you play a mmo remember? excuse the hell out of us who wish to get on vent an play a well organized and well fought warzone!!!!!!

[Monterone]

During my play hours there is always the same republic guild/players playing together. And with Imps outweighing Pubs on my server, there are always bads in green gear on the imp team. But i still enjoy pvp because i can still put significant dps to the point where I am considered a threat to the Republic and always get focus fired. Compliment taken:rolleyes:

 

Same here, but that compliment only goes so far when you're the minority getting focused game after game.

 

Add to that the horrible rewards for losing and the appeal keeps waning.

[Ybini]

I always PUG, sometimes you get newbies sometimes not. But I've had the good fortune to win over premades before, its pretty much the luck of the draw. Best thing is to just realize the win is going to be nearly random in PUGs.