PuG vs. Premade

[Invictusthetaru]

I always run in a premade. Always. The 4 always change though, and we hardly care about the set up. Just 4 players that get together and want to run games. Sometimes we'll get tank healer 2 dps. Sometimes 2 healer 2 dps, etc.

 

Some people run premades because it's way more fun. Don't assume all premades have the ideal set up.

[REDLION]

This is why they were going to implement a separate rating que for solo and group (premades), Bioware already acknowledged the problem. You can thank their enormous mishandling of Rated system testing and subsequent recall on release, for why you now have to get farmed by the same premade day after day for the next several months (at best). Don't worry though, this game will be F2P real soon at this rate.

 

WOW, I don't get it...

 

You F2P guys say that like it's some awesome thing. Dude, it's $15 bucks a month. I can't go see a movie on $15USD. I spend $15.00 on lunch everyday. $15 won't even fill a 1/3 of my car with gas. I pay that to park my car. Two drinks at a bar is $16.00. Really, $15 DOLLARS is nothing. It might as well be Free now at that price. Who misses $15.00 each month???

 

And if it goes F2P, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Will we get more content or less? Will all the bugs in the game suddenly go away just because you are no longer paying a sub fee? Honestly, will the game somehow be better if no one were paying for it? Really?

 

DUDE...IT'S $15 DOLLARS. If you have trouble paying that petty price each month, you don't need a game, you need a freaken job. Don't waste your time or your money when you clearly can't make ends meet. Devote that time to seeking employment.

[TrenchWar]

yup topic is aproximately 10 miles off course now!

[criminalheretic]

I'm not going to give the standard "learn to play" or "find friends response" that people generally do in these situations. Instead, I will give you advice on your overall approach to these warzones where you are queuing solo and fighting against premades.

 

1) you claim that you are fighting against the same individuals match after match after match. Be observant. Try to find out what they do and have your team ready to counteract it. Get to know who their healers are and mark them as soon as they come into view. If they always push right and stealth left, tell your ops formation so they will be ready.

 

2) change your perspective. Instead of crying that going against premades is too challenging, keep in mind that it is your choice to go it alone, and that is a risk you take. When going against a guild that you know has a nasty reputation for being good in warzones, psych yourself (and your ops group) up a little, exclaiming that you're glad to finally have a real challenge. Morale actually has an effect on player ability and is one thing that sets them apart than just your pve bots.

 

I realize you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate that. So I will ask you to take a few things on faith...

 

I am decent at PVP. Not elite, but definitely in the top 30% of my class. I can't prove that with anything other than my own observations, and comparing myself to my teammates in 10-49 and now 50's. But nevertheless I feel comfortable with that assesment of my ability. I'm "pretty good".

 

My point being, when I say I am being farmed I don't mean losing close games, I mean going against teams that beat us so soundly that after immediately capping all three turrets in Novare or Alderaan, they actually have 1/2 their team stand right in front of our spawn point to kill us when we hop down. I'm talking about 4-5 minute losses in Voidstar and Novare and 2-3 minutes losses in Huttball.

 

Don't mistake me, I am not saying they're cheating, I'm not blaming it all on gear. I am man enough to admit that these players are better than us/me, and would still beat us if they queued solo and were not on Vent.

 

My point is when elite guilded players, in full WH gear, queue as premade, on vent... They beat us so bad over and over again that learning, fun, or any real competition goes out the window.

 

It's bad for the game as a whole. Matching players of similar equipment and skill levels trancends MMOs.

 

You don't throw the freshmen in with the seniors. You don't make the yellow belts compete with the black belts.

 

If it was a once in a while kind of thing, I could deal. But when you face the same premade literally 10 times in a row, you leave no option but to go finish some of those old PVE quests in your log, if youre lucky enough to still have a few, or of course play another game.

[criminalheretic]

join a guild ? be appart of a pre-made? you play a mmo remember? excuse the hell out of us who wish to get on vent an play a well organized and well fought warzone!!!!!!

 

No one is accusing premades of any "wrongdoing". Or at least I'm not. We are just saying we don't want to play against you.

 

And I am suggesting that if is in fact competition you are after, ROFLstomping pugs should get almost as old, almost as fast to the premades as it does to the pugs.

 

I enjoy playing darts. I do not enjoy playing darts against random girls from my work who need to be taught how to throw.

 

As for just joining a guild, forming a premade. Thanks. I never thought of that. We aren't all 22 with 7 friends with whom we can schedule play dates.

Edited May 9, 2012 by criminalheretic

[Ahhmyface]

This is getting so old.

 

I could replace "premade" and "pug" in your post with "good players" and "bad players" and the logic would still be the same. You want a free win, when you don't deserve it.

 

Look, I get that it sucks to get farmed. But, the PURPOSE of that unpleasantness it to encourage you to improve your play, improve your tactics, improve your cooperation, improve your character, and otherwise stop failing.

 

Honestly, you can bracket to infinity, until there are 2 teams in each bracket and all sense of competition is meaningless. And then every loser in those micro bracket will be crying that they should be downgraded to the next lowest bracket. Just think about it, use your brain, and think. Somebody has to lose in pvp, that's how it goes. If you can't cut it, or you can't have fun when you lose, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Blasphemerr]

It'll be interesting to see many of the established premades go back to PuG'n once rated WZs release. Most premades are trash and the problem is simply PuGs are worse. The superiority of premades relies in the communication; very few of them are actually better at player vs player.

[criminalheretic]

This is getting so old.

 

I could replace "premade" and "pug" in your post with "good players" and "bad players" and the logic would still be the same. You want a free win, when you don't deserve it.

 

Look, I get that it sucks to get farmed. But, the PURPOSE of that unpleasantness it to encourage you to improve your play, improve your tactics, improve your cooperation, improve your character, and otherwise stop failing.

 

Honestly, you can bracket to infinity, until there are 2 teams in each bracket and all sense of competition is meaningless. And then every loser in those micro bracket will be crying that they should be downgraded to the next lowest bracket. Just think about it, use your brain, and think. Somebody has to lose in pvp, that's how it goes. If you can't cut it, or you can't have fun when you lose, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

At least 1, but usually 10 of you in every thread that thinks "How can I tell everyone how awesome I am, while pretending it's adding to the discussion".

 

Thank you for your contribution.

[Ahhmyface]

At least 1, but usually 10 of you in every thread that thinks "How can I tell everyone how awesome I am, while pretending it's adding to the discussion".

 

Thank you for your contribution.

 

I don't believe I mentioned myself at all. Try again.

[RachelAnne]

This is getting so old.

 

I could replace "premade" and "pug" in your post with "good players" and "bad players" and the logic would still be the same. You want a free win, when you don't deserve it.

 

Look, I get that it sucks to get farmed. But, the PURPOSE of that unpleasantness it to encourage you to improve your play, improve your tactics, improve your cooperation, improve your character, and otherwise stop failing.

 

Honestly, you can bracket to infinity, until there are 2 teams in each bracket and all sense of competition is meaningless. And then every loser in those micro bracket will be crying that they should be downgraded to the next lowest bracket. Just think about it, use your brain, and think. Somebody has to lose in pvp, that's how it goes. If you can't cut it, or you can't have fun when you lose, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Premade does not mean good and pug does not mean bad. To assume something like this is really silly...

 

I did competetive pvp at tournaments in wow with my guild, Warsong and Arena tournaments and i can definately say I know what I am doing in pvp. A serious player in a premade will always want a competetive fight, thats why a premade is formed in first place.

A soccer team is also not created to play vs. 1 hobby player from the street but to play vs. other soccer clubs in a league.

 

So far there are no rankings, tournaments at Tor - god knows if there ever will be, but the fact remains that a premade should only face a premade and a pug always a pug.

 

In a premade you can communicate by voice chat, you have your fixed tactics - a pug does not have these and does lose because of it.

In a pug you would need to explain tactics for several minutes first, you dont have that time. You also need to write down every command in chat, again you dont have the time for this.

 

And since premades always win vs pugs, they aswell have a big gear advantage.

 

Every player that does not want a split queue, is a coward and a bad player who is afraid of competition.

[criminalheretic]

This is getting so old.

 

I could replace "premade" and "pug" in your post with "good players" and "bad players" and the logic would still be the same. You want a free win, when you don't deserve it.

 

Look, I get that it sucks to get farmed. But, the PURPOSE of that unpleasantness it to encourage you to improve your play, improve your tactics, improve your cooperation, improve your character, and otherwise stop failing.

 

Honestly, you can bracket to infinity, until there are 2 teams in each bracket and all sense of competition is meaningless. And then every loser in those micro bracket will be crying that they should be downgraded to the next lowest bracket. Just think about it, use your brain, and think. Somebody has to lose in pvp, that's how it goes. If you can't cut it, or you can't have fun when you lose, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

Plus if you actually read the post you would see you don't need to substitute "good players". I actually said they were good.

 

You're awesome. People will tell stories to their grandchildren about how awesome you are long after your bones are dust. What they won't continue doing is paying 14.99/mo to make you feel awesome.

[Ahhmyface]

Premade does not mean good and pug does not mean bad. To assume something like this is really silly...

 

I did competetive pvp at tournaments in wow with my guild, Warsong and Arena tournaments and i can definately say I know what I am doing in pvp. A serious player in a premade will always want a competetive fight, thats why a premade is formed in first place.

A soccer team is also not created to play vs. 1 hobby player from the street but to play vs. other soccer clubs in a league.

 

So far there are no rankings, tournaments at Tor - god knows if there ever will be, but the fact remains that a premade should only face a premade and a pug always a pug.

 

In a premade you can communicate by voice chat, you have your fixed tactics - a pug does not have these and does lose because of it.

In a pug you would need to explain tactics for several minutes first, you dont have that time. You also need to write down every command in chat, again you dont have the time for this.

 

And since premades always win vs pugs, they aswell have a big gear advantage.

 

Every player that does not want a split queue, is a coward and a bad player who is afraid of competition.

 

If premade is not good and pug is not bad, then how do premades always win? Believe it or not, there is no magical buff that applies to grouped players. Cooperation is not an unfair advantage, it is a REQUIREMENT for team pvp.

 

I premade all the time without vent. Doesn't affect anything. I just group players who don't suck. You should try it. I'm not afraid of competition on the enemy team, but I am afraid of competition from bads on my own team, who can easily ruin a match by giving up a key ball or point. Premades aren't fixed. Premades don't necessarily even have tactics. Literally nothing you say is true.

 

If all of the premades soloqueued at the same time, the side that ended up with more of them would still win.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[criminalheretic]

I don't believe I mentioned myself at all. Try again.

 

When you presume to offer advice that inludes telling others not to fail, the implication is that you are qualified to dispense said advice, and thus are not in fact guilty of having failed yourself.

[Ahhmyface]

When you presume to offer advice that inludes telling others not to fail, the implication is that you are qualified to dispense said advice, and thus are not in fact guilty of having failed yourself.

 

Alas, it does not. "If there is rain then wear a raincoat" does not actually imply that I myself always wear a raincoat in the rain. Do you have any other poorly reasoned claims for me to debunk?

[Skylancewalker]

Get some friends that are good at pvp or ./ragequit

[Darth-Rammstein]

It'll be interesting to see many of the established premades go back to PuG'n once rated WZs release. Most premades are trash and the problem is simply PuGs are worse. The superiority of premades relies in the communication; very few of them are actually better at player vs player.

 

This pretty much sums it up, most of those "pro premade players" really aren't all that good. I'd like to see them play pvp in another game where there are actually competitive people that pvp, they would suck.

[SammuelSK]

This is getting so old.

 

I could replace "premade" and "pug" in your post with "good players" and "bad players" and the logic would still be the same. You want a free win, when you don't deserve it.

 

Look, I get that it sucks to get farmed. But, the PURPOSE of that unpleasantness it to encourage you to improve your play, improve your tactics, improve your cooperation, improve your character, and otherwise stop failing.

 

Honestly, you can bracket to infinity, until there are 2 teams in each bracket and all sense of competition is meaningless. And then every loser in those micro bracket will be crying that they should be downgraded to the next lowest bracket. Just think about it, use your brain, and think. Somebody has to lose in pvp, that's how it goes. If you can't cut it, or you can't have fun when you lose, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

For such an awesome PVPer you seem to fail miserably at simple comprehension. Being stomped by premades for pug players doesn't not actually teach them anything. When every match on your server is against the exact same team of super stacked, super organized and super geared players... nobody learns anything. They simply quit. End topic, end discussion.

 

Now I don't know about you but I'd rather have matches that are fun, sometimes against my friends and sometimes with them then NO MATCHES AT ALL.

 

Bioware, break up the group queues till you have something in place to set grouped players up against grouped players, across servers if needed.... because as is.. the situation is not sustainable. Queue times are already getting longer and longer as less and less players are interested in even bothering anymore.

[Elkirin]

Many People who care about the continuation of PvP in Swtor realise that you need people to want to queue.

If you provide premade or pug options you will likely attract more players.

 

IMHO,

If you would rather post rubbish that can only discourage others from PvPing, please go and make a thread titled;

 

" I want to remove PvP from SWTOR"

[EndlessObsession]

I actually haven't played in 2 weeks due to a few days of being stomped by the same empire premades over, and over, and over again. About 6 hours of getting destroyed by the same premade group while they're /say ing obscenties like "l2p scrub" or "you so bad" etc. is enough to drive anyone away. To me these individuals are simply griefers and aren't looking for fair competition. As soon as they have to face equally geared, organized, and skilled groups... they'll be the ones rage quitting or "whining" on these forums. Their time will come.

[LFDUVEZ]

quitters never win. pugs can beat premades and compete with them... but not when your pug is filled with whinny quitters who spend more time crying in ops chat than they do playing. people stop playing and have 6 people camping their one turret as soon as other side caps two and then wonder why they almost always lose.

 

oh and just so you "oh woe is me" types know, nothing is stopping you and three of your friends from queing up as a premade.

 

I bet you are somewhat maso.... or are on the winning side. The OP is right about everything he said. If this is not addressed very soon they will lose a LOT of players. Hell, even on my server its at most 30 players online and we get the same outcome in PVP. We can pretty much predict if we will win or not when we see the premades on the other side.

 

It is beyond pathetic since they get more gear, faster, .... while the others are getting gear slower.

 

No skill involved --> just gear. If you are undergeared you are at the bottom of the food chain.... no matter what.

[MorgothQuick]

4/5/6 v 8 games rock when your on the lower populated team.....

 

Even better when the 8 player team is a partial or full premade (because for some reason the opposing team is two 4 man groups 90% of the time). They then wonder why we arent going for the objective. Gee I wonder why....

[Astarica]

Let's say your side has 100 players and you group them into 25 teams of 4 premades. Half of them are still going to be bad because they're the guys that made up your bad PUGs in the past. Just because you put them together in a group doesn't suddenly make them better. If you assume good players try to group with other good players it's actually quite possible the bad premades will be even worse than the average PUG because the average PUG may used to include 1 or 2 good/great players.

 

While premade is no guaranteed to get great or even good players, it's still a more reliable way to find them than PUGs so that's why premades a bit stronger. But then saying premades are bad is like saying great players shouldn't be able to band together. I pretty much always solo queue, and it's annoying to go up against premades just because they have 4 Conquerors and I'm working with 3 guys with 0 Expertise gear, but some people act as if there is a premade with 3 guys with 0 Expertise gear you'd still get bowled over by them. In the few games where I got a decent team from PUG even just in terms of gear (not even asking any of the players to have great skill) I can always put up a good fight and win quite a few of them.

 

But then here the problem is that gear acquisition in this game might take too long for whatever reason (though players are particularly too blame too) so you end up with these 0 Expertise guys. I don't fault premades trying to get around having to carry guys with no expertise.

[Astarica]

It'll be interesting to see many of the established premades go back to PuG'n once rated WZs release. Most premades are trash and the problem is simply PuGs are worse. The superiority of premades relies in the communication; very few of them are actually better at player vs player.

 

The superiority of premades is that you've a high probability of starting with 4 guys who aren't running around in PvE gear and one of them might even know how to heal.

 

Communication is a joke in PvP. All the good players I play with know exactly where to go often without the need for any input, because it's often very obvious what's going on in the battlefield. If you simply remember "if the enemy isn't here, they're probably attacking somewhere else", that'd cut down the need for about 95% of the communication in this game.

[Astarica]

This pretty much sums it up, most of those "pro premade players" really aren't all that good. I'd like to see them play pvp in another game where there are actually competitive people that pvp, they would suck.

 

Actually 'pro premade players' end up playing themselves too unless you believe there's only exactly 4 of them on your server. It's just whenever this happens, the loser side blames the other 4 guys on their team because there's no other way that can account for their loss so both team still maintains their 100% win record. It's easy to win every game you play when you mentally block out the games you lose.

[criminalheretic]

Alas, it does not. "If there is rain then wear a raincoat" does not actually imply that I myself always wear a raincoat in the rain. Do you have any other poorly reasoned claims for me to debunk?

 

Yes actually it does. It does not imply that you always wear a raincoat, but that to have any personal credibility you would in fact wear a raincoat. Or to get back on topic, when you tell people to stop failing at PVP, you are either making a personal and negative comparison, in which case my original assement of your self-implied if not proclaimed awesomeness was accurate, and your testiment that you were not referring to yourself innaccurate. OR, you were not speaking from any personal experience, validating your rebuttal but simultaneously invalidating your entire original post.

 

Keep tryin kid.