War Hero Gear vs Campaign Gear

[Doomsdaycomes]

DUDE the only thing you have to do to EARN the Recruit gear is BE level 50. You're acting like you got to do a bunch of PvP grind to get it. Sheesh. You're getting out of hand now.

 

Nope, you missunderstood. The problem comes down to that you -can- do your pve dailies/hm's in pvp gear, including (when in Bm and WH) -skipping- alot of PvE content to do them. You -can not- PvP in your PvE gear. There in lies the imbalance. If PvP'ers wanna feel super special and get their own routes to leveling and end-game gear, don't want to "Have to PvE" and don't want "Raiders in their PvP," then in all fairness, your pvp gear needs to be -crap- for pve. Not just -lower stats- or something. Absolute crap. I suppose a fair fix would be to make expertise have the opposite effect on mobs. -X% Damage mitigation, -X% Damage, -X% healing in non-pvp zones. Then things would be fair and PvP'ers can have their own special stuff.

 

So please read before you comment

[DarthKhaos]

Nope, you missunderstood. The problem comes down to that you -can- do your pve dailies/hm's in pvp gear, including (when in Bm and WH) -skipping- alot of PvE content to do them. You -can not- PvP in your PvE gear. There in lies the imbalance. If PvP'ers wanna feel super special and get their own routes to leveling and end-game gear, don't want to "Have to PvE" and don't want "Raiders in their PvP," then in all fairness, your pvp gear needs to be -crap- for pve. Not just -lower stats- or something. Absolute crap. I suppose a fair fix would be to make expertise have the opposite effect on mobs. -X% Damage mitigation, -X% Damage, -X% healing in non-pvp zones. Then things would be fair and PvP'ers can have their own special stuff.

 

So please read before you comment

And what PvP content must you do to get recruit gear? Psst let me give you a little FYI. If there was a PvE set that I could buy for cash as soon as I hit level 50 to help me do PvE content better than PvP gear know what? I wouldn't be complaining that I can't do it in PvP gear I'd buy the PvE starter set.

 

How many PvE dailies are there and how many PvP dailies are there? For those who ONLY PvP they are at a disadvantage in the earning cash department yet they got no problem buying a PvP (or PvE set if one was available) to do whatever content they want to do. ALSO you CAN get the PvP daily done in your PvE gear. you'll get killed along the way but remember it is a team effort and the team could still win.

 

My point still stands. You're making a fuss about a non issue.

[Doomsdaycomes]

And what PvP content must you do to get recruit gear? Psst let me give you a little FYI. If there was a PvE set that I could buy for cash as soon as I hit level 50 to help me do PvE content better than PvP gear know what? I wouldn't be complaining that I can't do it in PvP gear I'd buy the PvE starter set.

 

How many PvE dailies are there and how many PvP dailies are there? For those who ONLY PvP they are at a disadvantage in the earning cash department yet they got no problem buying a PvP (or PvE set if one was available) to do whatever content they want to do. ALSO you CAN get the PvP daily done in your PvE gear. you'll get killed along the way but remember it is a team effort and the team could still win.

 

My point still stands. You're making a fuss about a non issue.

 

Don't hand me half a tuna sandwich and tell me it's the same thing as a whole one. But I'm tired of arguing this issue with blind people who will never admit there is an imbalance between the two sides. I'll enoy the content I can with the friends I can, and when this game goes under from the multiple issues (not just glaring imbalances) infesting it, then I'll jump ship like everyone else.

 

Spent too much time and effort arguing trying to make this a more equal, better game. Not spending a moment longer.

[xxdragonragexx]

Spent too much time and effort arguing trying to make this a more equal, better game. Not spending a moment longer.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not trying to insult you or anything when I say this: Your ideas will never make SWTOR a better game. In fact, it will make it worst.

[PloGreen]

Don't hand me half a tuna sandwich and tell me it's the same thing as a whole one. But I'm tired of arguing this issue with blind people who will never admit there is an imbalance between the two sides. I'll enoy the content I can with the friends I can, and when this game goes under from the multiple issues (not just glaring imbalances) infesting it, then I'll jump ship like everyone else.

 

Spent too much time and effort arguing trying to make this a more equal, better game. Not spending a moment longer.

 

I dont get what you mean by imbalance between pvp and pve?

 

There is gear for both modes and you excel at either by using the appropriate gear for mode you play. You have to keep them seperate, its common sense. No one in their right mind is doing raids in war hero gear, people in war hero gear are doing pvp. War hero gear is sub par compared to the pve equivalent if you try to pve in that gear.

 

The best gear for pvp should come from pvp, not from raiding and vice versa, and this is how it is currently.

 

There is no imbalance.

[Revelationjp]

However, you were able to finish your dailies in pvp gear, did you not? Now, try taking your PvE gear into a warzone, and report back your observation of your performance there. Secondly, his comparison is War Hero to Campaign gear, and how one is viable in two places and one is not. Using Recruit gear is no where near War Hero.

 

Yeah, I was wearing recruit. But (if you read my post) my pve gear is also entry level too, so i am very much talking apples to apples. Plus, I was doing dailies, not hard modes or ops for God's sake. But it's obvious to many of us that despite what you say, what you want is to be competitive in pvp with your raid gear and not have to earn pvp gear like the rest of us are doing. Seriously, I pve and pvp, and its tough, because I devide my time and have to earn twon sets of gear. In my opinion, that's a good thing. Without a goal to shoot for, games get boring really quickly.

[Huxxar]

Okay I don't understand why people are focusing on entry level stuff on either PVP or PVE. The main issue of imbalance is doing the highest endgame content available in the highest gear tier available. I don't understand how this has been confusing for 14 pages, but I can try to repeat:

 

HM Explosive Conflict (Denova) CAN be cleared even with EVERYONE in WH PVP gear with minimal disadvantage. Given the time investment you all claim it takes to get WH, we're assuming those players care enough to know the strategy and apply skill. It is not optimal, but it's about the same level as Rakata, which is what most PVE only people already have going into HM EC, anyway. You mention WH stat pools minus expertise, but the PVE-only stat advantages of Campaign meet diminishing returns, anyway.

 

Level 50 PVP CANNOT be won with EVERYONE on one team in Campaign PVE gear except with great strokes of luck or against another ungeared team (unlikely). Way back before release, devs said the difference in performance for gear in PVP should be at most 10%. So two players of equal skill playing the same class should only differ by up to 10% based on gear. This is simply not the case. Expertise is too heavily weighted. That's pretty much it.

 

There is no PVE Operations-only stat on Rakata or Campaign etc gear that excludes endgame PVPers from jumping in and being effective in Nightmare modes, so why is expertise so discriminating against PVE players?

Especially since people are complaining that it takes too long for queues to pop, wouldn't you want more PVE players to attempt PVP instead of being put off by having to get Recruit gear to replace the Rakata/Campaign gear they invested hours to earn?

The cheapness of Recruit is irrelevant; I worked for the gear I have, I'm willing to suffer ~10% disadvantage going into PVP, but I face closer to 30-40% disadvantage that is NOT MIRRORED WHEN PVP PLAYERS GO TO ENDGAME RAIDS. I don't even mind that it's easy to go from PVP to PVE and wearing the cool-looking WH gear you worked hard to acquire. I actually enjoy having people raid with us and get to experience the other half of endgame content if they are willing to learn the fights . So let me show off my Campaign in Warzones and still be effective with slight disadvantage. Even if it's just as effective as the recruit gear I could buy, anyway, that is acceptable. Surely you PVP-only people shouldn't be that upset if highest tear PVE is equal to lowest PVP for PVP content when highest PVP is equal to second highest PVE for PVE content, right?

 

Would you really feel cool and successful if you won a warzone simply because you facerolled in your WH and the other team was fighting hard in Campaign?

[DarthKhaos]

That's true Huxxar. Either you can't win or it's really really really hard and only in something like Huttball where if you got some insane co-ordination you can pull off a win. HOWEVER... Do you get a reward in your PvE gear? Do you at the end of your Warzone get a prize? Now let's flip it. Let's make it that you cannot complete the PvE content with the PvP gear what reward will they get?

 

Stop trying to compare the mechanics of a PvP encounter with a PvE encounter. I can tell you this if there was some PvE gear that can be bought that is more effective in PvE than the Warhero gear I can guarantee you people in Warhero gear isn't going to be complaining that they can't do the content in their Warhero gear. They'll just get the PvE nub gear and deal with it. You can wear the nub PvP gear and win and you're complaining!?!?!?

Edited May 4, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Huxxar]

Stop trying to compare the mechanics of a PvP encounter with a PvE encounter. I can tell you this if there was some PvE gear that can be bought that is more effective in PvE than the Warhero gear I can guarantee you people in Warhero gear isn't going to be complaining that they can't do the content in their Warhero gear. They'll just get the PvE nub gear and deal with it. You can wear the nub PvP gear and win and you're complaining!?!?!?

Yes. Because currently it is imbalanced in the sense that WH gear is on par PVE-wise with tier 3 Rakata. Not noob gear, tier 1, or tier 2.

Tier 3. PVE.

Get it yet?

No?

Imagine if you spent all your time doing PVP pre-1.2 while I just did PVE, exclusively. You got the best gear available for PVP and I got the best PVE gear available. Then 1.2 hits. I've been practicing PVE and let's pretend they removed lockouts, so I'm able to complete the next tier more quickly than you are. I get 1.2 PVE gear, then waltz into PVP and am able to perform just as well as someone who was dedicated to PVP before. You and your PVP buddies try to raid but can't get past first boss.

You're telling me right now that this situation would be fair? Why?

[AKfourtyseven]

 

So let me show off my Campaign in Warzones and still be effective with slight disadvantage. Even if it's just as effective as the recruit gear I could buy, anyway, that is acceptable. Surely you PVP-only people shouldn't be that upset if highest tear PVE is equal to lowest PVP for PVP content when highest PVP is equal to second highest PVE for PVE content, right?

 

Would you really feel cool and successful if you won a warzone simply because you facerolled in your WH and the other team was fighting hard in Campaign?

 

See, now in theory i agree with you, but this point is countered by the fact they included recruit gear which requires absolutely no grind exactly for people who only PvE and want to experience the PvP content without a major disadvantage. You simply cannot ignore this.

 

There is no equivalent in PvE. if i never did a single bit of PvE content once i dinged 50 and then decided i wanted to try a NiM raid (and i did not have WH gear), it simply isnt going to happen, i cant hang with my guild. The reverse however is possible. A person in my guild who has never done PvP can come and team with me by buying recruit gear nd hang with the BM/WH crew. This is the balance, its for people who dont have min/max'd characters and full top tier gear (those who do, break these in-built support systems).

 

Also, bare in mind that giving an overall stat inflation or a special PvE only stat to top tier PvE gear wouldnt really fix the problem, it would just mean PvE content would need to be made more difficult, or become more difficult if you didnt have the special stat.

Edited May 4, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Huxxar]

There is no equivalent in PvE. if i never did a single bit of PvE content once i dinged 50 and then decided i wanted to try a NiM raid (and i did not have WH gear), it simply isnt going to happen, i cant hang with my guild.

Maybe this is true if the rest of your guild also just hit 50. But I literally did hit 50 on one of my alts and did Nightmare EV that night (even downed my council member just fine) before I even did any HM flashpoints. I wasn't in scrub PVP gear though, I was in scrub PVE. I don't remember the stats exactly, but I doubt it would make a difference.

You cannot ignore that buying Recruit gear for PVP is still an imbalance vs needing to buy nothing to step into endgame PVE

[-Vexus-]

How is 141 less in your main stat and 108 less in Endurance somehow be on par with top of the line PvE gear? I'm sorry but I can't even accept your premise, and your conclusion is unfounded IMHO.

 

I have been critical of many things Bioware has done, but I think they have finally gotten the separation of PvP and PvE gear right. It was a slap in the face to have someone PvE exclusively then hop into a WZ and have better gear than the full-time PvP'ers. I'm all for gear neutrality, but I'm 100% against needing to PvE to be competitive at PvP. So, I think Bioware's solution on this issue is working well.

Edited May 4, 2012 by -Vexus-

[Huxxar]

How is 141 less in your main stat and 108 less in Endurance somehow be on par with top of the line PvE gear? I'm sorry but I can't even accept your premise, and your conclusion is unfounded IMHO.

It is on par with Second Best PVE gear. Rakata. Right before Campaign.

However, Campaign is behind WH by more than the bottom tier of PVP. Bottom.

 

In case this continues to be confusing: WH ~ second best in PVE >>> Campaign not even bottom tier in PVP

[yukirshiro]

It is on par with Second Best PVE gear. Rakata. Right before Campaign.

However, Campaign is behind WH by more than the bottom tier of PVP. Bottom.

 

In case this continues to be confusing: WH ~ second best in PVE >>> Campaign not even bottom tier in PVP

 

Still don't care, evidently no one else does either.

 

You shouldn't be able to PVP in PVE gear and be effective and you never will be able to. If you don't like it find some other game where you can PVE your way to PVP dominance.

 

Complaining that people in WH can PVE the hardest PVE content just says to me that PVE content is too easy in this game.

[DarthKhaos]

Yes. Because currently it is imbalanced in the sense that WH gear is on par PVE-wise with tier 3 Rakata. Not noob gear, tier 1, or tier 2.

Tier 3. PVE.

Get it yet?

No?

Imagine if you spent all your time doing PVP pre-1.2 while I just did PVE, exclusively. You got the best gear available for PVP and I got the best PVE gear available. Then 1.2 hits. I've been practicing PVE and let's pretend they removed lockouts, so I'm able to complete the next tier more quickly than you are. I get 1.2 PVE gear, then waltz into PVP and am able to perform just as well as someone who was dedicated to PVP before. You and your PVP buddies try to raid but can't get past first boss.

You're telling me right now that this situation would be fair? Why?

It seems like you still don't get it. You could be buck naked in PvP and get rewarded at the end for a loss as long as you make one medal that can be achieved by standing in a defensive spot for in the match. Can you do the same in PvE? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

For PvP gear to be ineffective in PvE you have to have a replacement PvP stat for every single stat in the game. Endurance? Gotta have something different that only works in PvP and not PvE. Then the question of open world PvP (which isn't a lot but ut happens) How is that gonna work? You'll get one and 2 shotted by every NPC because your gear has ZERO Endurance that only works for PvE.

 

Your top level PvE gear can allow you to complete any warzone and get a reward. Hell if you're lucky you'll get your daily done. THE ONE PvP daily. How many PvE dailies are there again? I lost track.

 

Understand the mechanics of the game, the difference of PvP & PvE encounters and the fact that you can get entry level PvP gear for absolutely no grind. NONE ZERO ZILCH!

[Kilikaa]

There should be no separation in gear. All gear should be good for both pve and pvp. this separation forces people to grind for gear and for some that is very hard to do. It is also not fun and quite stupid. We should instead be allowed to wear whatever we want in pvp and pve. If you want to wear Campaign and War Hero pieces then you should be able to without any problems for pve/pvp. This whole grinding separate sets of gear because we need to is the most ridiculous thing. I should not be forced to try and get two sets of armor. It's not fun and quite frankly a royal pain in the ***.

 

To even get Campaign gear we need to do Explosive Coast Hard Mode. This is total bull-shyt! Not everyone can run that because they can't find a group to do it. Even worse is the fact that the proper gear to run this raid is not available UNLESS they actually do it with inferior gear. I say remove the differance between the two types. In the Star Wars Universe Jedi/Sith/BH/Troopers ect did not have two differant sets to fight the environment and their enemy. They used the same set for fighting everything.

[Thexremstar]

Why is there such a huge stat allocation difference between two same item level gear sets? I added all the stats from just only the 5 main pieces: gloves, head, chest, boots, and pants from the marauder sets and there is a 279 point difference. If you included the stats from every single item slot, the difference between the stat points are immense. As a pvper with full War Hero gear, you can do both PvP and PvE comfortably considering that both gear sets will be hitting soft caps anyways making the gains from the PvE set even less noticeable. However if you were to wear campaign gear to warzones, you'll get absolutely wrecked due to how much a difference expertise makes. How is this even considered balance?

 

Marauder 5 piece set

 

War Hero Gear = 2106 Stat Points

Strength = 461 (-141)

Endurance = 537 (-108)

Expertise = 550 (+550)

Power = 61 (-2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 106 (+49)

Surge = 159 (-69)

 

Campaign Gear = 1827 Stat Points

Strength = 602 (+141)

Endurance = 645 (+108)

Expertise = 0 (-550)

Power = 63 (+2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 57 (-49)

Surge = 228 (+69)

 

How Long have u been playing SWToR bye now if u dont have full rakata or better and full War Hero you shouldnt be playing SWToR. Ive been playing for just on 2 months and have both full sets Rakata/Warhero(augmented 5 peice) and pvp is broken and there is no way in the world I would sacrifice other more important stats for expertise my guild would not take me or anyone for that matter in any operation speacialy not Denova(maybe the new story mode ops that we run thru like it was cards in a storm)

Expertise was a viable stat for pvp for all class types till they unblanced it bye changeing the bonuses u got for wat ever u were doing ie. if u were damage class u get 10% more damage if u were being damaged ur expertise reduced a bit more of the crit damage but if u were healing u got kicked in the balls and stay with the same bonus so now u got out DPSed everytime cause u cant heal anyone to save there life inlcudeing ur self.

 

fail patch 1.2

 

[skotish]

How Long have u been playing SWToR bye now if u dont have full rakata or better and full War Hero you shouldnt be playing SWToR. Ive been playing for just on 2 months and have both full sets Rakata/Warhero(augmented 5 peice) and pvp is broken and there is no way in the world I would sacrifice other more important stats for expertise my guild would not take me or anyone for that matter in any operation speacialy not Denova(maybe the new story mode ops that we run thru like it was cards in a storm)

Expertise was a viable stat for pvp for all class types till they unblanced it bye changeing the bonuses u got for wat ever u were doing ie. if u were damage class u get 10% more damage if u were being damaged ur expertise reduced a bit more of the crit damage but if u were healing u got kicked in the balls and stay with the same bonus so now u got out DPSed everytime cause u cant heal anyone to save there life inlcudeing ur self.

 

fail patch 1.2

 

Your talking out your pie hole ps or have no life at all

[Thexremstar]

Your talking out your pie hole ps or have no life at all

 

LOL you obvioulsy are not a hard core PVPER or gamer so shhh unless u have contructive critasism.

 

[Motoeric]

You are making the erroneous assumption that 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y.

Sorry, but it just isn't true.

 

lmao its funny how people just dream up dumb mechanics and think its true. Whats worse is when they go so far to post some dumb comparison that really just shows that the OP can do simple math.

 

1 expertise =/= 1 power =/= 1 main stat =/= 1 accuracy =/= 1 crit

 

theres website ill probably get banned for linking that actually have smart people who know the mechanics. try checking there. but honestly i think your time is best spent elsewhere if you want to improve your game lol

[DarthKhaos]

There should be no separation in gear. All gear should be good for both pve and pvp. this separation forces people to grind for gear and for some that is very hard to do. It is also not fun and quite stupid. We should instead be allowed to wear whatever we want in pvp and pve. If you want to wear Campaign and War Hero pieces then you should be able to without any problems for pve/pvp. This whole grinding separate sets of gear because we need to is the most ridiculous thing. I should not be forced to try and get two sets of armor. It's not fun and quite frankly a royal pain in the ***.

 

To even get Campaign gear we need to do Explosive Coast Hard Mode. This is total bull-shyt! Not everyone can run that because they can't find a group to do it. Even worse is the fact that the proper gear to run this raid is not available UNLESS they actually do it with inferior gear. I say remove the differance between the two types. In the Star Wars Universe Jedi/Sith/BH/Troopers ect did not have two differant sets to fight the environment and their enemy. They used the same set for fighting everything.

So one minuite people were complaining that all the operations (normal and hard mode) drops the same gear and how they want to earn something and here you are complaining that it's a grind. You can't please everyone.

 

Let me break it down to you. It's called progression. Something to strive towards. Not everyone will achieve it but here's the kicker. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST OF THE BEST GEAR TO ENJOY THE GAME!!!

 

I'm in Battle Master gear and I'm winning against War Hero geared people. People are attempting Explosive Coast and having fun even if they don't win it. Why? They have a goal. You see it as a grind but you seem to forget the posts in the early where so many people complained that they got all the gear already and there's no point playing. They want something to strive towards.

 

And I'll say this AGAIN. With the gear separation they can mess with PvP without screwing over PvE by tweaking the PvP stat equations..

[Calitri]

Just put a baseline expertise on everything, PvEers can PvP. Thus making more players to kill which PvPers should find appealing, and well since BM/WH can do PvE already. Everybody wins! Sure it will be harder for PvPers to kill stuff in their BM/WH gear, but how many posts are on forums boasting that PvPers get our gear by going up against an adaptive AI rather than a script? So we should enjoy the challenge of the disadvantage of the gear in a op enviroment against a script right?

 

And also in my opinion closes the division between PvP playerbase and the PvE playerbase. Right now unless you have a large abundence of time, you either do one or the other. Currently the only thing I do in the game is log on 1 of my 2 50's and do warzones, it'd be kinda nice to check out the otherside of the game. Nothing wrong with being able to do both with either set of gear, as long as the set bonuses and stats reflect the advantage on the enviroment they originated from.

[DarthKhaos]

Just put a baseline expertise on everything, PvEers can PvP. Thus making more players to kill which PvPers should find appealing, and well since BM/WH can do PvE already. Everybody wins! Sure it will be harder for PvPers to kill stuff in their BM/WH gear, but how many posts are on forums boasting that PvPers get our gear by going up against an adaptive AI rather than a script? So we should enjoy the challenge of the disadvantage of the gear in a op enviroment against a script right?

 

And also in my opinion closes the division between PvP playerbase and the PvE playerbase. Right now unless you have a large abundence of time, you either do one or the other. Currently the only thing I do in the game is log on 1 of my 2 50's and do warzones, it'd be kinda nice to check out the otherside of the game. Nothing wrong with being able to do both with either set of gear, as long as the set bonuses and stats reflect the advantage on the enviroment they originated from.

Why does the first paragraph imply that PvE gear is going to be better than PvP gear? Because if everything has a baseline expertise and PvP gear is less effective in PvE then the PvE gear which has expertise will be better than the PvP gear. I could be wrong but this is what it sounds like to me.

 

The second paragraph is just stupid. If you want to do more you will take more time. The concept is simple. If you don't got a lot of time and want to do both it just takes longer. Seems simple to me.

[Calitri]

I'm not implying either should be "better", the only thing i'd like to see is gear coming out of PvP be better for PvP and vice versa and have stats reflecting such. And in my opinion it's stupid to require 2 diffrent sets of gear to play the same game. And one of the biggest flaws in the current standard MMO formula.

[KBSIP]

remove expertise and the campaign set is ahead of war hero by 300 stat points, a significant advantage. expertise has no effects in PVE so this is fair. The advantage swings the other way in PVP with war hero having ~ 300 over campaign.

 

So yes, your base premise is wrong.