War Hero Gear vs Campaign Gear

[Semitote]

You have shown no math - therefore I cannot disagree with your math.

You just made an assumption - I said you should show something which supports that assumption.

You fail to do that.

 

My math:

0 * x = 0

y * x > 0 with y > 0

Therefore secondary stats are worth more than expertise.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=413607

 

Read it. They're suggesting that expertise is better than power until you have ~1100 expertise. That makes expertise the best secondary stat and the one you stack more than any other secondary stat. There is math, graphs, etc.

[Doomsdaycomes]

wth are you talking about? expertise DOES NOT WORK in pve....

 

Marauder 5 piece set

 

War Hero Gear = 2106 Stat Points - 550 = 1556 stat pool

Strength = 461 (-141)

Endurance = 537 (-108)

Expertise = 550 (+550)

Power = 61 (-2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 106 (+49)

Surge = 159 (-69)

 

Campaign Gear = 1827 Stat Points

Strength = 602 (+141)

Endurance = 645 (+108)

Expertise = 0 (-550)

Power = 63 (+2)

 

in PVE, 1827 > 1556, therefore campaign > WH (as it should be)

in PVE, 2106 > 1827, therefore WH > campaign (as it should be)

 

I was stating, to the many people saying expertise is not equal point for point to other stats, that in it's area, expertise effects 3 different things. Most other stats (no secondary) does that. Now, people justify that having expertise on PvP gear is fair because other stats are removed to make up for it. But the -amount- of stats removed are not equal to the -amount- of expertise added.

 

The other issues comes in that just because Campaign has -more- stats, doesn't mean it's that much more effective. Look up Diminishing Returns in the game sense. Most secondary stats, the more you stack it, the less per point you get. So if PvP gear has (X) amount of certian stats, you receive (Y) amount of benefit from them. On PvE gear, the same does not hold true, as (2X) amount of a stats with diminishing returns does not give you (2Y) returns. Some stats it's closer to (1.5Y) or even (1.25Y).

 

Now, it's true that in PvE, expertise does nothing for you, but PvP gear is still viable in most of PvE content. It's not "better: but it's viability is much better going PvP gear to PvE content, then PvE gears viability is in PvE gear to PvP content.

 

PvP = non scripted fights, every fight is unique.

 

Edit: Forgot to add this. Not to split hairs, but I think you'll find PvP is often a lot more "scripted" than you think. When it comes down to it, when X class does this, Y Class does that.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Doomsdaycomes]

You know what's funny?

 

The OP is upset that you can use War Hero gear and complete PvE content to get rewarded in the PvE content. But you cannot use the top end Raiding gear (To be honest I got no idea what the name of that gear is) to complete PvP content and get rewarded in the PvP content.

 

Can anyone else see the flaw in what he's saying?

 

I believe I see the flaw in what you're saying. War Hero maybe "harder" to get at the moment (though Campaign gear, what you were looking for and too lazy to read, takes a large amount of grinding dailies and weeklies pve-wise.)

 

If PvP'ers want to have PvE gear utterly useless in their warzone, then to be fair, PvP gear -needs- to be utterly useless in PvE. It is not, and there in lies the imbalance.

 

I could be wrong about the OP's opinion on this, but I'm not saying "nerf" pvp gear. I think the divide is stupid for the game's over all health. I'm saying put PvE gear back to being viable, and if you must have "expertise" use it as a "small" advantage, not the god-stat (in pvp) it's become.

[wessik]

I was stating, to the many people saying expertise is not equal point for point to other stats, that in it's area, expertise effects 3 different things. Most other stats (no secondary) does that. Now, people justify that having expertise on PvP gear is fair because other stats are removed to make up for it. But the -amount- of stats removed are not equal to the -amount- of expertise added.

 

The other issues comes in that just because Campaign has -more- stats, doesn't mean it's that much more effective. Look up Diminishing Returns in the game sense. Most secondary stats, the more you stack it, the less per point you get. So if PvP gear has (X) amount of certian stats, you receive (Y) amount of benefit from them. On PvE gear, the same does not hold true, as (2X) amount of a stats with diminishing returns does not give you (2Y) returns. Some stats it's closer to (1.5Y) or even (1.25Y).

 

Now, it's true that in PvE, expertise does nothing for you, but PvP gear is still viable in most of PvE content. It's not "better: but it's viability is much better going PvP gear to PvE content, then PvE gears viability is in PvE gear to PvP content.

 

so what are you asking for?

for bioware to remove expertise so you only have to strictly pve to compete with pvper's?

- ie basically remove gear progression in pvp

- or basically force pvpers to pve so that they can compete in pvp

for more stats on pve gear so that you can clear pve content faster than you already are clearing it?

for pvpers to not be able to do flashpoints in pvp gear?

 

from my view... i only pvp... i log in, and pvp for 4 hours... i haven't done EV or KP or any of the new ops or flashpoints... i would enjoy that stuff to see the content but i simply prefer pvp and that's how i like to spend my time...

 

pre 1.2, to be the "best PVP geared", you needed to pve for half of it... i didn't so i was at a disadvantage...

post 1.2, i get the "best PVP gear" by pvping... if i wanted the "best PVE gear", i have to pve to do it... i'm happy with that...

[Doomsdaycomes]

so what are you asking for?

for bioware to remove expertise so you only have to strictly pve to compete with pvper's?

- ie basically remove gear progression in pvp

- or basically force pvpers to pve so that they can compete in pvp

for more stats on pve gear so that you can clear pve content faster than you already are clearing it?

for pvpers to not be able to do flashpoints in pvp gear?

 

What I'm asking, is that PvE gear become as viable PvP wise as PvP gear is PvE wise. If they can not be equal, at least make it possible for a PvE player to switch between content as easily as a PvP player. (I am both.) I abhor the divide created by post 1.2 expertise spikes.

 

from my view... i only pvp... i log in, and pvp for 4 hours... i haven't done EV or KP or any of the new ops or flashpoints... i would enjoy that stuff to see the content but i simply prefer pvp and that's how i like to spend my time...

 

pre 1.2, to be the "best PVP geared", you needed to pve for half of it... i didn't so i was at a disadvantage...

post 1.2, i get the "best PVP gear" by pvping... if i wanted the "best PVE gear", i have to pve to do it... i'm happy with that...

 

From my point of view, I log on 2-4 hours. I PvP and PvE, but post 1.2 I find I can't do both effectively without doing twice the gear grind/effort. As long as you don't "have" to PvE for the best PvP gear, why should you care how I got my gear, as long as my time and effort was roughly equal. That's all I'm asking, is for the progression of PvP and PvE gear to be roughly equal, and both to be equally Viable.

[wessik]

 

If PvP'ers want to have PvE gear utterly useless in their warzone, then to be fair, PvP gear -needs- to be utterly useless in PvE. It is not, and there in lies the imbalance.

 

I could be wrong about the OP's opinion on this, but I'm not saying "nerf" pvp gear. I think the divide is stupid for the game's over all health. I'm saying put PvE gear back to being viable, and if you must have "expertise" use it as a "small" advantage, not the god-stat (in pvp) it's become.

 

in order to have this... then the stats on all gear have to be equalized, and then the time taken to get gear needs to be equalized... it sounds easy but i bet it isn't...

 

also as class changes occur (nerfs/buffs) etc, the devs need to adjust EVERY raid zone in accordance with the changes... (that's ridiculous)

 

or you can just adjust expertise like they did in 1.2...

 

long story short - i don't think the divide is stupid:

pvp'ers get rewarded for enjoying pvp, pve'ers get rewarded for enjoying pve

 

if they are doing the opposite type of content, they still get rewarded:

pvper's do pve content... what is their reward? pve gear which is better in pve than their pvp gear

pve'ers do pvp conent... what is their reward? pvp gear which is better in pvp than their pve gear

 

who cares about the details... people can still play and get gear if they want...

[AlyxDinas]

I don't want to PvP in PvE gear. I want the extra stats that PvP gear gets made up in PvE stats for PvE.

 

That's sort of redundant though. Principally, I understand what you are saying the the fact is that the itemization for PvE endgame gear doesn't require such at thing currently. Now, that's not saying that as we move in tiers beyond Campaigner that we cannot see the new tiers have a significant stats difference between their PvP counterparts (which is subsequently made up for with the PvP gear's expertise stat and not necessarily their base stats) but at the moment, it's simply not needed given the content.

 

As content expands, I'd actually say that this type of side by side yet separate progression is probably close to what we will see. Prior to the Expertise restructuring, we saw something sort of like this. Rakata had a significant (or at least measurably important) stat benefit over PvP gear, so much so that many people mixed it into the their PvP sets. Now, this intermingling is certainly not what the developers wanted and the change in Expertise shows this. As time goes on, the benefits of PvP gear will likely be tied less and less to their base stats, creating a clear separation between the two endgames.

 

It just, you know, takes time. It's not going to happen overnight and you should be prepared to wait. The one bit of fine print will be that I doubt PvP gear will become completely useless in PvE content. Only average to somewhat sub-optimal.

Edited May 2, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[DarthKhaos]

I believe I see the flaw in what you're saying. War Hero maybe "harder" to get at the moment (though Campaign gear, what you were looking for and too lazy to read, takes a large amount of grinding dailies and weeklies pve-wise.)

 

If PvP'ers want to have PvE gear utterly useless in their warzone, then to be fair, PvP gear -needs- to be utterly useless in PvE. It is not, and there in lies the imbalance.

 

I could be wrong about the OP's opinion on this, but I'm not saying "nerf" pvp gear. I think the divide is stupid for the game's over all health. I'm saying put PvE gear back to being viable, and if you must have "expertise" use it as a "small" advantage, not the god-stat (in pvp) it's become.

NOPE!

 

What I was trying to point out is you can PvP with PvE gear and still get valor and commendations to use towards PvP rewards. You'll lose in a 1v1 fight regardless of your class but you can still complete the encounter and get a reward. The OP is trying to say you can't.

 

To make it simple the truth of the matter.

Can you complete PvE content with PvP gear? Yes. Can you complete it better with PvE gear? Yes.

Can you complete PvP content with PvE gear? Yes. Can you complete it better with PvP gear? Yes.

[ekwalizer]

Marauder 5 piece set

 

War Hero Gear = 2106 Stat Points

Strength = 461 (-141)

Endurance = 537 (-108)

Expertise = 550 (+550)

Power = 61 (-2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 106 (+49)

Surge = 159 (-69)

 

Campaign Gear = 1827 Stat Points

Strength = 602 (+141)

Endurance = 645 (+108)

Expertise = 0 (-550)

Power = 63 (+2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 57 (-49)

Surge = 228 (+69)

 

First things first. Expertise has NO value outside of PvP. None, zip, zilch, nada.

By your own numbers for campaign gear:

STR = 141 Higher in Campaign

END = 108 Higher in Campaign

PWR = 2 Higher in Campaign

CRIT = Same

ACC = 49 Lower in Campaign

SUR = 69 Higher in Campaign

 

Removing Expertise from the scenario gives War Hero 1556 total value, whereas Campaign is still 1827.

 

Furthermore, you'd be hard pressed on 99% of the server to find 16 players of the same faction in full WH gear, much less full Augd WH.

 

Other than a little QQ, I fail to see any logic or reason behind your thread.

[ComeAndSee]

The 4-5% damage:defense gap makes up for the loss of stats.

[Hutt]

It's apples and oranges. Two systems to keep you busy. Pretty clever business tactic for an mmo.

[Doomsdaycomes]

in order to have this... then the stats on all gear have to be equalized, and then the time taken to get gear needs to be equalized... it sounds easy but i bet it isn't...

 

also as class changes occur (nerfs/buffs) etc, the devs need to adjust EVERY raid zone in accordance with the changes... (that's ridiculous)

 

or you can just adjust expertise like they did in 1.2...

 

long story short - i don't think the divide is stupid:

pvp'ers get rewarded for enjoying pvp, pve'ers get rewarded for enjoying pve

 

if they are doing the opposite type of content, they still get rewarded:

pvper's do pve content... what is their reward? pve gear which is better in pve than their pvp gear

pve'ers do pvp conent... what is their reward? pvp gear which is better in pvp than their pve gear

 

who cares about the details... people can still play and get gear if they want...

 

Where does that leave some one like me, who is both a PvE'er and a PvP'er. Doing "my" content is doing any endgame content, but my progression is constantly in 2-directions, making my over all progression twice as long for trying to enjoy the game I'm paying for. (No, I don't think I should have it handed to me, but why should I work twice as hard to enjoy my game as someone who finds enjoyment in only half of the game? We're still paying the same amount, their just only using half the content.)

 

Balancing PvE and PvP progression would be "hard" but it's not impossible. For instance:

 

> Put PvP and PvE tier sets to equal values.

 

> Place a PvP buff upon entering PvP combat (or wz's) that grants the player +X expertise, X being a flat rate for all. (Pvp balance tool vs. PvE)

 

> Set an expected win rate for warzones.

 

> Find an acceptable average of Wz comms per minute.

 

> Change Boss drops from useable gear to tokens/comms like wz's.

 

> Set the amount of comms dropped from a boss equal to the expected time it takes to clear up to and beat them multiplied by the average Wz comms per minute established above.

 

> Set the price of each tier of gear to the desired progression rate, and require each new teir cost (Piece of Tier below it + comms.)

 

This isn't an exact model, but it's a start. Excellent players of course will beat wzs/clear bosses faster than expected, and win their comms faster. That's the reward for being better.

 

A PvE player can't be 'carried' by a guild, as comms droppped go to all equally, and they require the piece of gear before buying one from a higher tier.

 

If it becomes an issue that guilds/groups can clear content -excessively faster- then the expected clear times, additional measures like the ones below could be added:

 

Set Required Mob Kills for each boss. If a group fails to kill that many mobs, the boss begins the encounter enraged. (Designed to stop guilds from running a person and skipping most of the trash).

-or-

Set a "sweet" spot in each boss, that if they are killed in that time frame the best comm rewards are dropped. If a group kills a boss significantly early, less comms are dropped as the content is clearly too easy for them.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Semitote]

First things first. Expertise has NO value outside of PvP. None, zip, zilch, nada.

By your own numbers for campaign gear:

STR = 141 Higher in Campaign

END = 108 Higher in Campaign

PWR = 2 Higher in Campaign

CRIT = Same

ACC = 49 Lower in Campaign

SUR = 69 Higher in Campaign

 

Removing Expertise from the scenario gives War Hero 1556 total value, whereas Campaign is still 1827.

 

Furthermore, you'd be hard pressed on 99% of the server to find 16 players of the same faction in full WH gear, much less full Augd WH.

 

Other than a little QQ, I fail to see any logic or reason behind your thread.

 

Campaign gear is worse than Recruit gear in PvP. You can buy a full set of recruit gear for <400k credits. It takes weeks of progression and farming to get Campaign gear. A full WH set is better than a full Rakata set in PvE. And you cannot buy Rakata. Expertise still has more value in PvP than any other stat a PvE set can bring. Yet it is currently budgeted at a rate of 30 expertise = 4 surge. How is this correct? 30 expertise is actually a measurable difference in PvP. 4 Surge Rating you'll never even really notice in PvE.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Semitote

[Naturalscience]

Nightmares Asylum...

 

 

Is this Fura? Navigator? Afic? Ohnoes? Milkman?

 

Or did you guys just rip off a well known guild name that wasn't being used and bring it to SWTOR? Honestly I am just curious...last I saw the name was gone after the AoC debacle.

[wessik]

Where does that leave some one like me, who is both a PvE'er and a PvP'er. Doing "my" content is doing any endgame content, but my progression is constantly in 2-directions, making my over all progression twice as long for trying to enjoy the game I'm paying for. (No, I don't think I should have it handed to me, but why should I work twice as hard to enjoy my game as someone who finds enjoyment in only half of the game? We're still paying the same amount, their just only using half the content.)

 

 

no, you aren't getting punished for anything...

 

you get to do enjoy twice as much content as me... each content takes time to enjoy...

if you find it is "work" and you don't "enjoy" it, don't do it...

 

am i complaining that i spend all my time pvp'ing that i can't spend enough time to pve? no... it is my choice to only "enjoy" half the game...

 

should i ask that bioware only charge me $7.50 a month cuz i choose not to pve?

 

should i be complaining to bioware that flashpoints should be shortened so it only takes 15min to complete a nightmare mode so i can get the end game campaign gear drops faster?

 

because you are essentially asking to get WH end game gear by skipping through the pvp gear progression by only having pve gear...

Edited May 2, 2012 by wessik

[Doomsdaycomes]

no, you aren't getting punished for anything...

 

you get to do enjoy twice as much content as me... each content takes time to enjoy...

if you find it is "work" and you don't "enjoy" it, don't do it...

 

am i complaining that i spend all my time pvp'ing that i can't spend enough time to pve? no... it is my choice to only "enjoy" half the game...

 

should i ask that bioware only charge me $7.50 a month cuz i choose not to pve?

 

should i be complaining to bioware that flashpoints should be shortened so it only takes 15min to complete a nightmare mode so i can get the end game campaign gear drops faster?

 

because you are essentially asking to get WH end game gear by skipping through the pvp gear progression by only having pve gear...

 

And sadly, this is what comes from a divide. Perhaps I am -out dated- in thinking that End-game content means "all" endgame content. What I am essentially asking is to get -endgame gear- for doing -endgame content.- Whether it's pvp or pve, everything I do should advance my character towards the end goal of being -the best gear.-

 

Because to me, pvp-only progression is absolutely silly. You don't even have to win to be rewarded. <.< Love to tell a boss "Hey, can't kill you, but can I atleast have -half- of your loot for trying?"

 

Edit: Please don't block me from my goal of end-game gear as long as it doesn't block you from only pvping.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthKhaos]

> Set an expected win rate for warzones.

What the !?!?!?!? You really expect this to make sense? And what ensures the win rate holds true? Have you PvPed? There are days you get lucky with a team that has a brain and there are days you don't. Did you miss when the good players were working on their dailies and is now stuck with... THEM?

 

You cannot have the same progression time of PvP & PvE because of the nature of the encounters.

[Semitote]

What the !?!?!?!? You really expect this to make sense? And what ensures the win rate holds true? Have you PvPed? There are days you get lucky with a team that has a brain and there are days you don't. Did you miss when the good players were working on their dailies and is now stuck with... THEM?

 

You cannot have the same progression time of PvP & PvE because of the nature of the encounters.

 

Wouldn't the expected win rate be 50%? As in each match 8 people win and 8 people lose. I guess the only modification you would need to make to that number is in cases where teams are uneven.

[Zellata]

Where does that leave some one like me, who is both a PvE'er and a PvP'er. Doing "my" content is doing any endgame content, but my progression is constantly in 2-directions, making my over all progression twice as long for trying to enjoy the game I'm paying for. (No, I don't think I should have it handed to me, but why should I work twice as hard to enjoy my game as someone who finds enjoyment in only half of the game? We're still paying the same amount, their just only using half the content.)

 

You are trying to accomplish twice as much and it takes you twice as long (duh!). What is the problem exactly? If you don't like one of the paths (PvE or PvP) and consider it "work" that you don't enjoy, just concentrate on one or another.

[DarthKhaos]

And sadly, this is what comes from a divide. Perhaps I am -out dated- in thinking that End-game content means "all" endgame content. What I am essentially asking is to get -endgame gear- for doing -endgame content.- Whether it's pvp or pve, everything I do should advance my character towards the end goal of being -the best gear.-

 

Because to me, pvp-only progression is absolutely silly. You don't even have to win to be rewarded. <.< Love to tell a boss "Hey, can't kill you, but can I atleast have -half- of your loot for trying?"

 

Edit: Please don't block me from my goal of end-game gear as long as it doesn't block you from only pvping.

Do PvPers get to pause the match till someone who disconnected or has to leave gets replaced? How about when someone needs to go afk because someone is at their door? Do PvPers get an entire piece of gear for winning a warzone instead of farming up 3.4K rated commendations @ 35 rated commendations per match for a War Hero weapon?

 

Each form of progression and gear acquisition has its advantages and disadvantages. Currently each side likes their advantages and are not bothered with the advantages of the other progression. You want it all but want it the easy way. The interesting thing is you can still experience the end game content. You want to rule ALL the end game content without putting in the effort. SORRY.

[DarthKhaos]

Do PvPers get to pause the match till someone who disconnected or has to leave gets replaced? How about when someone needs to go afk because someone is at their door? Do PvPers get an entire piece of gear for winning a warzone instead of farming up 3.4K rated commendations @ 35 rated commendations per match for a War Hero weapon?

 

Each form of progression and gear acquisition has its advantages and disadvantages. Currently each side likes their advantages and are not bothered with the advantages of the other progression. You want it all but want it the easy way. The interesting thing is you can still experience the end game content. You want to rule ALL the end game content without putting in the effort. SORRY.

 

Wouldn't the expected win rate be 50%? As in each match 8 people win and 8 people lose. I guess the only modification you would need to make to that number is in cases where teams are uneven.

Expected win rate and average win rate are 2 different statistical entities. They are different things and used to calculate different outcomes.

[Doomsdaycomes]

What the !?!?!?!? You really expect this to make sense? And what ensures the win rate holds true? Have you PvPed? There are days you get lucky with a team that has a brain and there are days you don't. Did you miss when the good players were working on their dailies and is now stuck with... THEM?

 

You cannot have the same progression time of PvP & PvE because of the nature of the encounters.

 

If a pve player is required to clear a certian amount of content, then a pvp'er can be too. A pvp'er can increase their chances of winning as much as Pve'er can, by including better players in their groups and working on strategies. This line is only to set a general "Average Wz comms per minute" rate. If it is deciced by Dev's that a 50/50 win ratio is the expected wins for a good pvp player, then they will balance the comms per minute around that.

 

(And yes I pvp. I've had bad days too, but my win ratio is porbably about 66% wish I had hard data to show you.)

[Doomsdaycomes]

You are trying to accomplish twice as much and it takes you twice as long (duh!). What is the problem exactly? If you don't like one of the paths (PvE or PvP) and consider it "work" that you don't enjoy, just concentrate on one or another.

 

I like -both- paths, but to grind them both when there are solutions besides dividing us is silly. Currently I do Grind pve gear and pvp gear, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion or advocate for a change. I want to do both, I don't want to tell my friends "Can't pvp, only pve geared" or vice versa because I can't commit twice the time as others can. (Not saying others don't, but I -do- have a job.)

 

If MMO's were more inclusive to all, then why should one "side" care how the other got their gear? Skill would decide the outcome in the end.

[Semitote]

If a pve player is required to clear a certian amount of content, then a pvp'er can be too. A pvp'er can increase their chances of winning as much as Pve'er can, by including better players in their groups and working on strategies. This line is only to set a general "Average Wz comms per minute" rate. If it is deciced by Dev's that a 50/50 win ratio is the expected wins for a good pvp player, then they will balance the comms per minute around that.

 

(And yes I pvp. I've had bad days too, but my win ratio is porbably about 66% wish I had hard data to show you.)

 

But you don't get locked out of PvP. And that's where the problem is. A PvP'er who plays all the time will have all the gear. A PvE'er has to wait for a reset. There either needs to be a cap or diminishing returns put on PvP because the cap right now is however long you can keep playing before you get bored. PvE'ers have a set number of black hole comms they can get a week and a set number of bosses they can down per week.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Do PvPers get to pause the match till someone who disconnected or has to leave gets replaced? How about when someone needs to go afk because someone is at their door? Do PvPers get an entire piece of gear for winning a warzone instead of farming up 3.4K rated commendations @ 35 rated commendations per match for a War Hero weapon?

 

Each form of progression and gear acquisition has its advantages and disadvantages. Currently each side likes their advantages and are not bothered with the advantages of the other progression. You want it all but want it the easy way. The interesting thing is you can still experience the end game content. You want to rule ALL the end game content without putting in the effort. SORRY.

 

You obviously didn't read the part where PvE bosses no longer drop whole pieces of gear. There is precedent in other MMO's in this.

 

Your last line is not a valid arguement, it's an insult. This is the point in a conversation where we begin to call each other idiots, lazy, chickens, or carebears. I refuse to do so, and will no longer reply to you. Good day sir.