Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[Cerion]

No that's exactly what you are doing. My option was to give a Group Finder that allowed players the choice of using it for Cross Server or Single Server. That way both sides get what they want.

Your option wasn't an option at all, but simply what you want and nothing more.

 

I suggest you double check what the definition of compromise is.

 

It isn't what I want. I have only one horse in this race, which I've mentioned. Sorry. I'm simply a bystander, looking at it objectively.

 

Your option DOESN'T give both sides what they want. That's the problem. It gives your side what it wants, and pretends to give the other side a choice, a choice it never asked for. The other side doesn't want LFG period, or has that escaped you?

 

The compromise position means each party gives something up. Your suggestion means you give up NOTHING, while the other side gives up its position entirely. The truly compromise position here, in which both sides give up something for the middle ground, is same-server LFG tool. Period. You're forced to give up x-server while still getting LFG functionality, whilst the other side is forced to give up its entrenched resistance to any LFG tool and the issues they perceive it brings.

 

That's my lesson for today.

[Valkirus]

A bit different than TORs from what I've read. It appears each player will be given a roll for loot, independent of all other players. If a player 'wins' their personal roll, then they are awarded loot for their class from the boss loot tables.

 

The key to the system is that loot is no longer fixed in the sense that a boss only drops X items that are then distributed by roll to the group, but rather that each player has an independent chance at winning loot, so there can no longer be any 'so and so took MY loot' type issues.

 

True and good points. And the no more waiting on the selfish player who logs without rolling for a item.

[siegedeluxe]

Sadly this solution screws over low population servers, though I agree that cross-server PVP & LFG makes it more difficult for communities to develop.

 

There are no communities, you either make one or you don't at all.

[Florial]

I have mixed emotions at this point but am leaning towards having a LFG tool, even if it is cross-server. I think that others have it right---if the overall gaming community is pretty good from the start, you won't have this "it ruins community" argument. WoW was the first MMO that I played that had this feature in place and I must say that the majority of my runs were with vile people. I would come across some rare good groups where people were patient and kind but they were few and far between. The degree of cruelty and unkindness in groups was pretty appalling and after a bit, I left WoW and went on to other games with a better community. I've come to the realization though that the overall WoW community is just horrid so these people would exist with or without the LFG tool.

 

When the cross server LFG tool finally came to Rift, it wasn't the end of the community. For the time that I played Rift, people were generally pretty good in groups, even from other servers. I can't comment on other games that had cross server features since I didn't play them when this feature was added. I must say that I did enjoy this feature since it allowed me to do my dungeons when my guildmates or friends weren't on. Overall a great feature.

[chaosdefined]

A bit different than TORs from what I've read. It appears each player will be given a roll for loot, independent of all other players. If a player 'wins' their personal roll, then they are awarded loot for their class from the boss loot tables.

 

The key to the system is that loot is no longer fixed in the sense that a boss only drops X items that are then distributed by roll to the group, but rather that each player has an independent chance at winning loot, so there can no longer be any 'so and so took MY loot' type issues.

 

And I'm all for cross server LFG. I cannot fathom why people hate the idea so much. Just like the poster above, the biggest draw is being able to run ANY content at ANY time.

 

I'm on a high population SWTOR server, yet depending on the day and time, and what content I wish to run, I may not find a group. And having friends and guild members doesn't change the fact that outside peak times and typically for end-game content, finding a group can be nearly impossible.

 

That's genius, what has it taken this long to finally update the loot distrubution model in an MMO! I love that idea.

[Kourage]

Dude you read the hate, so you you already read the explanation.

 

 

Your answer starts here

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=293015

Edited May 1, 2012 by Kourage

[ferroz]

Your option DOESN'T give both sides what they want. That's the problem. It gives your side what it wants, and pretends to give the other side a choice, a choice it never asked for. The other side doesn't want LFG period, or has that escaped you?

His option does indeed give all 3 people what they want.

• The people who don't want lfg period can continue to not use a matchmaking lfg tool.
  
• The people who want a single server lfg tool can queue up and check the single server only box
  
• The people who want a cross server lfg tool can queue up and check the cross server box.
  

 

I notice that you've moved from one blatantly false position (the cross server allows RMT/gold sellers to transfer items cross server) to another blatantly false position (that the above suggestion doesn't offer a choice).

 

The fact that you just dropped the former blatantly false position without any concession about how you were wrong makes your more recently blatantly false position look like an elaborate tap dance to distract people.

[chaosdefined]

It isn't what I want. I have only one horse in this race, which I've mentioned. Sorry. I'm simply a bystander, looking at it objectively.

 

Your option DOESN'T give both sides what they want. That's the problem. It gives your side what it wants, and pretends to give the other side a choice, a choice it never asked for. The other side doesn't want LFG period, or has that escaped you?

 

The compromise position means each party gives something up. Your suggestion means you give up NOTHING, while the other side gives up its position entirely. The truly compromise position here, in which both sides give up something for the middle ground, is same-server LFG tool. Period. You're forced to give up x-server while still getting LFG functionality, whilst the other side is forced to give up its entrenched resistance to any LFG tool and the issues they perceive it brings.

 

That's my lesson for today.

 

I'm afraid you really have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing you said makes sense.

 

I can't believe I'm having to explain what a compromise is to you. I can't believe you don't understand what it is.

 

I'll try again....third time lucky....

 

A compromise doesn't mean you have to give something up, it means you find middle ground. Giving both parties the tool and options means both get what they want. Giving only a single server means only one side gets what they want.

It really is one the simplest things I've had to explain to someone, how are you not getting it?

[siegedeluxe]

I have mixed emotions at this point but am leaning towards having a LFG tool, even if it is cross-server. I think that others have it right---if the overall gaming community is pretty good from the start, you won't have this "it ruins community" argument. WoW was the first MMO that I played that had this feature in place and I must say that the majority of my runs were with vile people. I would come across some rare good groups where people were patient and kind but they were few and far between. The degree of cruelty and unkindness in groups was pretty appalling and after a bit, I left WoW and went on to other games with a better community. I've come to the realization though that the overall WoW community is just horrid so these people would exist with or without the LFG tool.

 

When the cross server LFG tool finally came to Rift, it wasn't the end of the community. For the time that I played Rift, people were generally pretty good in groups, even from other servers. I can't comment on other games that had cross server features since I didn't play them when this feature was added. I must say that I did enjoy this feature since it allowed me to do my dungeons when my guildmates or friends weren't on. Overall a great feature.

 

The reason why there are so many "vile" players in WoW is simply this, kids and teens are playing that game.

[ferroz]

Successful at what? Dumbing a game down to the point that your pet can play it?

Successful at exposing the majority of the playerbase to the end game; previously only a small minority had actually been able to be involved in the end game content.

[DawnAskham]

I have mixed emotions at this point but am leaning towards having a LFG tool, even if it is cross-server. I think that others have it right---if the overall gaming community is pretty good from the start, you won't have this "it ruins community" argument. WoW was the first MMO that I played that had this feature in place and I must say that the majority of my runs were with vile people. I would come across some rare good groups where people were patient and kind but they were few and far between. The degree of cruelty and unkindness in groups was pretty appalling and after a bit, I left WoW and went on to other games with a better community. I've come to the realization though that the overall WoW community is just horrid so these people would exist with or without the LFG tool.

 

When the cross server LFG tool finally came to Rift, it wasn't the end of the community. For the time that I played Rift, people were generally pretty good in groups, even from other servers. I can't comment on other games that had cross server features since I didn't play them when this feature was added. I must say that I did enjoy this feature since it allowed me to do my dungeons when my guildmates or friends weren't on. Overall a great feature.

 

I just don't get all the WoW LFG hate. Really I don't.

 

I've played both factions on multiple servers over a number of years, and I've had bad groups - groups with terrible players, players that are rude, and players that just seem to want to afk.

 

BUT...

 

Those were the exceptions.

 

The majority of groups I've been in have had no issues. None. Maybe they have been a bit quiet, but the groups all completed the content with no fuss or issues.

 

In fact I just finished a 7 day 'trial' with their Scroll of Resurrection, and used the LFG on a couple of 85 along with a new character I created. I never waited more than 10-15 minutes for a group, and I never had an issue with a group.

 

I haven't renewed my sub there because the content has grown stale to me, but at some point I may go back and drop SWTOR as accessible stale content is still better than any content that isn't accessible.

[Valkirus]

The reason why there are so many "vile" players in WoW is simply this, kids and teens are playing that game.

 

And there are tools to deal with them. Not a issue for me as I use those tools. Not Blizzard's fault some do not. And I have known some adults who act worse than some kids I know. You will run into more selfish jerks in a game like WoW because it has a huge player base.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Valkirus

[Cerion]

I'm afraid you really have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing you said makes sense.

 

I can't believe I'm having to explain what a compromise is to you. I can't believe you don't understand what it is.

 

I'll try again....third time lucky....

 

A compromise doesn't mean you have to give something up, it means you find middle ground. Giving both parties the tool and options means both get what they want. Giving only a single server means only one side gets what they want.

It really is one the simplest things I've had to explain to someone, how are you not getting it?

 

The reason I'm not getting it is because you're wrong. It seems YOU'RE the one who needs an education here.

 

com·pro·mise   [kom-pruh-mahyz] Show IPA noun, verb, com·pro·mised, com·pro·mis·ing.

noun

1. a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

 

Tell me, what concessions are YOU giving up in your proposal?

 

But hey, keep spewing your definition of 'compromise'. Anyone with a lick of schooling beyond 10th Grade Civics knows who is right here. That would be me.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Cerion

[Gomuningen]

Communities are a thing of the past, this died back in earlier 2000 when MMO used to be niche thing. Now the general masses are playing this game. The general masses tend not to care about communities rather quick progression of their characters and gearing. People will slit your throat to obtain that shinny loot.

 

You can tell from the forums, before launch this forum was littered with posts about no LFG system etc. After the release of the game people are screaming their heads off for LFG system. This is when the masses started to come to the forums, pre-launch the forums were a place for the niche gamers...but as you can tell they all left.

[Valkirus]

I just don't get all the WoW LFG hate. Really I don't.

 

I've played both factions on multiple servers over a number of years, and I've had bad groups - groups with terrible players, players that are rude, and players that just seem to want to afk.

 

BUT...

 

Those were the exceptions.

 

The majority of groups I've been in have had no issues. None. Maybe they have been a bit quiet, but the groups all completed the content with no fuss or issues.

 

In fact I just finished a 7 day 'trial' with their Scroll of Resurrection, and used the LFG on a couple of 85 along with a new character I created. I never waited more than 10-15 minutes for a group, and I never had an issue with a group.

 

I haven't renewed my sub there because the content has grown stale to me, but at some point I may go back and drop SWTOR as accessible stale content is still better than any content that isn't accessible.

 

My experence also. I still sub and will continue to as long as I am having fun in the game. I think some grasp at straws and will exaggerate in trying to prove thier point.

[Gimixes]

How about this...

 

a LFG tool.. that uses only ppl in your own server.

 

+1

 

No x-server pls

[Wolfeisberg]

Eventually they will add a cross server LFG. EA likes money, and as more and more people leave the game due to having a hard time finding groups or taking to long with the server side LFG, they'll get the hint. They already have examples of MMOs introducing Cross Server LFG and not losing subscribers on a massive scale due to it. Bioware can say the "we want to foster a community" all they want, eventually Big daddy EA will say "well it looks like the vast majority of the customers really don't care about community other then their own guild, we want to make money, put the cross server in so we can keep and gain customers back who just want to play the game and enjoy the content and find groups for it within a reasonable amount of time."

 

Mark my words, cross server LFG is coming.

[Jaxarale]

You have one camp that wants no-holds-barred x-server access and another group that doesn't want any LFG tool.

 

The funniest part of this whole debate is that as soon as LFG is put into game... every single one of the people complaining.... will be using it.

Then we will get the obligatory threads from them saying: I got ninjaed!!!! I told you so... and yet, secretly they will continue to use it...

 

If you are so against it, then simply do not use it when its implemented... its a fairly simple concept.

Just like LFR in WoW... people that dont like it did not have to use it... those with brains that knew they could get 4pc from it and improve healing and dps for real raiding... used it and ignored the numb-nuts.

Its a tool, its your decision to use it or not... but please stop trying to take away the OPTION to use it... we do not have to live by your rules and you do not have to use our LFG system...

 

 

 

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."

Oscar Wilde

[Skirata_Kal]

I'm not gonna stop talking about it until a X-server is actually implemented. Anyone who has experience with LFD tools knows what is going to happen with this same server LFD tool - High populated servers will prosper and all others will not. How is that different from todays Group Finder?

 

Agreed. The currrent problem with finding groups is the population itself. You're still going to find a population problem with the same server LFD on those servers. At best, it only adds some convenience, so it is a step in the right direction, not a solution. Transfers won't work either (they didn't for WoW). If you let people transfer for free from low pop to high pop, your dead servers get even more rancid, and your high pop servers get worse queues. And many people will rightly refuse to pay for a server transfer. Of course, we still don't know which transfer types will be free or not, but that doesn't change the fact that server transfers, free or not, didn't solve anything in WoW.

[Codek]

Communities are a thing of the past, this died back in earlier 2000 when MMO used to be niche thing. Now the general masses are playing this game. The general masses tend not to care about communities rather quick progression of their characters and gearing. People will slit your throat to obtain that shinny loot.

 

You can tell from the forums, before launch this forum was littered with posts about no LFG system etc. After the release of the game people are screaming their heads off for LFG system. This is when the masses started to come to the forums, pre-launch the forums were a place for the niche gamers...but as you can tell they all left.

 

lol, the good old days pre-release..... I never actually that it would turn out like this.

 

Pre-release, an outcry of "This is not WoW!"

 

Post release, "WoW has this!! WoW did this!!! Needs to be more like WoW!"

 

What happened......

[Gimixes]

lol, the good old days pre-release..... I never actually that it would turn out like this.

 

Pre-release, an outcry of "This is not WoW!"

 

Post release, "WoW has this!! WoW did this!!! Needs to be more like WoW!"

 

What happened......

 

Most players here are spoiled Wow kids who want all the lazy things from Wow in Swtor.

They want to push a button all day to do FP till they wont play Swtor anymore because they got bored so fast.

[Skidrowbro]

Successful at exposing the majority of the playerbase to the end game; previously only a small minority had actually been able to be involved in the end game content.

 

Not a game companies fault for bad players

[Valkirus]

The funniest part of this whole debate is that as soon as LFG is put into game... every single one of the people complaining.... will be using it.

Then we will get the obligatory threads from them saying: I got ninjaed!!!! I told you so... and yet, secretly they will continue to use it...

 

If you are so against it, then simply do not use it when its implemented... its a fairly simple concept.

Just like LFR in WoW... people that dont like it did not have to use it... those with brains that knew they could get 4pc from it and improve healing and dps for real raiding... used it and ignored the numb-nuts.

Its a tool, its your decision to use it or not... but please stop trying to take away the OPTION to use it... we do not have to live by your rules and you do not have to use our LFG system...

 

 

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live."

Oscar Wilde

 

Lol! Excellent post. I think it is clear which side is being selfish. Do not like it..donot use it. How more simple can that concept be? The hard core raiding guilds in WoW on my server atleast..continue to do thier own thing which is running heroic Dragon Soul raids. If some raiding guilds do lose players because of the LFR tool, then I would say they have players who got tired of having to show up at certain times and just want to log on..have some fun and logoff to do some RL stuff.

[nartiuslightlord]

faceless anonymity destroys MMOs!

 

Same server would be fine. x-server destroys communitys and you can go check all the nubs sitting in que in some city floating on a flying mount waiting to see what x-server does to an MMO and the community.

 

It also breeds a certain type of gamer that flocks to x-server based MMO's who have no respect for people working as a team to defeat the instance. they simply don't get the drop they leave the group in mid-fight and find another group.

 

They don't have to be nice they just want the drop and can leave at anypoint. right now if you just leave a group you start your career on the server as a person who is ineffective in a group and your rep for being a arse-hat can grow to the point you will not find people to group with if your rep on the server is bad.

 

Also if your good at your class role and do well in groups you gain good rep with the community and get offers for more runs.

[Jaxarale]

My own experience in a large (300+) guild in that "other" MMO is primarily social. Raid progression, pvp and/or RBGs are entirely secondary and casual.

 

That is why I used the term, "very very few" instead of "everyone"

 

It is nice that you know 300 out of the 10 million subs in WoW that care nothing for the game except a place to hang out and talk... but by definition, you are in the "very very few" category I mentioned.

 

What happened......

 

The purist's that were so vocal have mostly left the game or realized that they can not do content while leveling and have joined the LFG bandwagon... the very vocal minority that are trying to keep the game in the stone ages (Vanilla/BC WoW) are fading fast too.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jaxarale