Change to undying rage proposal

[Dacer]

Okay a lot of ppl want a change to undying rage, well even though i totally disagree with just about every argument out there for why It should be totally NERFed im proposing a change. Personally I think the problems ppl have verse marauders are learn to play issues and that every inquisitor( tho maybe not tankassassins) believes there should be no counter class to them. Snipers and ranged classes can be very effective vs a Mara. Not to mention operatives.

 

Anyway, to the main point of this thread: you all want a change to it because a -99% damage reduction ability is way way over powered for any dps to have, right? Many, many have said this so I will start with that.

 

Instead of -99% damage reduction to ALL damage it will be -99% to just force/tech attacks.

But it should also remove any movement impairing effects ( stuns roots snares ) and make us immune to them for the duration of the ability

I think that's pretty fair

 

Now, I think that is a perfectly balanced ability for a dps class with no castes heals or tank stances. If you think such an ability is Overpowered for a dps class then Idk what you want- it certainly wouldn't be balance.

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Edit: Well I can see from some of the statements already that ppl are not going to stop crying until marauders have no survivablity at all. And that ppl seem to think that my " proposal "for a change to undying rage still seems to be too overpowered for a melee dps. I guess those the think that such an ability that I described is overpowered have not realized that is the exact same thing that assassins and shadows get. And they have hard stuns, great burst damage, and stealth. I don't think a dps assassin is overpowered but you all seem to think their force shroud is....

 

Edited April 30, 2012 by Dacer

[KBSIP]

Grants a second CC breaker to your class. Considering the spec Advanced Prototype has to spec in pretty far to unlock a second CC breaker that also grants CC immunity, i think making this a base ability would not do anything to balance the game.

 

Its also important to note that undying rage isn't what makes marauders unbalanced.

 

What makes marauders unbalanced is that they have high burst and sustained DPS, high survivability from a healthy reserve of cooldowns, excellent group buffs that can be speced to be even better, and a good gap closer that does not require talenting. Any of these things on their own is fine for a class, a combination of all of them makes the marauders and sentinels the number one desired MDPS for warzones and ops. Anyone who points to powertechs as an alternative is simply thinking in terms of damage numbers, which the marauders can match while also providing life saving buffs and having more overall survivability during focus fire phases.

[stinkybird]

simply put they should have have the best defensive CD in the game. they are a pure dps class why would a pure dps even have a defensive CD to begin with. you take away all those defensive CDs and leave them thier dmg it would balance them out. to have the high damage with those CDs its OP to say the least.

 

so take away all thier damage reduction abilities and leave them thier damage output.

[Dacer]

Grants a second CC breaker to your class. Considering the spec Advanced Prototype has to spec in pretty far to unlock a second CC breaker that also grants CC immunity, i think making this a base ability would not do anything to balance the game.

 

.

 

So do you think that any class that has what I described about would be out of balance? Especially if it was a base ablility?

 

You do what a lot of ppl do when you talk about marauders you describe the class as if is a 31/31/31 build. Annihilation spec has the best survivablity - less burst more sustained dps. Carnage - the squishest - is really mostly bursty , and the. Rage well rage has better passive resistance from the stance but it's all About smash hits. With out the defensi e CDs that marauders have being a 4 m range

Melee dps that is always in the middle of the fights and aoe storms they are just to damn squishy

[Derian]

Okay a lot of ppl want a change to undying rage, well even though i totally disagree with just about every argument out there for why It should be totally NERFed im proposing a change. Personally I think the problems ppl have verse marauders are learn to play issues and that every inquisitor( tho maybe not tankassassins) believes there should be no counter class to them. Snipers and ranged classes can be very effective vs a Mara. Not to mention operatives.

 

Anyway, to the main point of this thread: you all want a change to it because a -99% damage reduction ability is way way over powered for any dps to have, right? Many, many have said this so I will start with that.

 

Instead of -99% damage reduction to ALL damage it will be -99% to just force/tech attacks.

But it should also remove any movement impairing effects ( stuns roots snares ) and make us immune to them for the duration of the ability

I think that's pretty fair

 

Now, I think that is a perfectly balanced ability for a dps class with no castes heals or tank stances. If you think such an ability is Overpowered for a dps class then Idk what you want- it certainly wouldn't be balance.

 

I'd be fine with that if there was no 50% health cost on use. Which would make it inferior to force shroud but whatever. ;D

[Derian]

Grants a second CC breaker to your class. Considering the spec Advanced Prototype has to spec in pretty far to unlock a second CC breaker that also grants CC immunity, i think making this a base ability would not do anything to balance the game.

 

Its also important to note that undying rage isn't what makes marauders unbalanced.

 

What makes marauders unbalanced is that they have high burst and sustained DPS, high survivability from a healthy reserve of cooldowns, excellent group buffs that can be speced to be even better, and a good gap closer that does not require talenting. Any of these things on their own is fine for a class, a combination of all of them makes the marauders and sentinels the number one desired MDPS for warzones and ops. Anyone who points to powertechs as an alternative is simply thinking in terms of damage numbers, which the marauders can match while also providing life saving buffs and having more overall survivability during focus fire phases.

 

Can you explain what high burst abilities a marauder has?

[getdownsb]

I have a proposal: undying rage is fine. Nerf QQ.

[cashogy]

give it a longer cooldown, problem solved. being able to use it every 90s (60s talented) is just dumb

 

marauders have really good defensive cooldowns for a dps only class. in pvp they tank better than actual tanks and they can do more damage than anyone.

 

marauder damage needs to be unchanged, that is the point of the class. but the defensive abilities need some adjustments, there really is no real weakness for other classes to exploit right now.

[getdownsb]

give it a longer cooldown, problem solved. being able to use it every 90s (60s talented) is just dumb

 

marauders have really good defensive cooldowns for a dps only class. in pvp they tank better than actual tanks and they can do more damage than anyone.

 

marauder damage needs to be unchanged, that is the point of the class. but the defensive abilities need some adjustments, there really is no real weakness for other classes to exploit right now.

 

Exactly, that is my point. Well it's my point if you exclude snipers, tank assassins, deception assassins, concealment operatives, marauders, pyro powertecs, and madness sorcerers.

[Anbokr]

Grants a second CC breaker to your class. Considering the spec Advanced Prototype has to spec in pretty far to unlock a second CC breaker that also grants CC immunity, i think making this a base ability would not do anything to balance the game.

 

Its also important to note that undying rage isn't what makes marauders unbalanced.

 

What makes marauders unbalanced is that they have high burst and sustained DPS, high survivability from a healthy reserve of cooldowns, excellent group buffs that can be speced to be even better, and a good gap closer that does not require talenting. Any of these things on their own is fine for a class, a combination of all of them makes the marauders and sentinels the number one desired MDPS for warzones and ops. Anyone who points to powertechs as an alternative is simply thinking in terms of damage numbers, which the marauders can match while also providing life saving buffs and having more overall survivability during focus fire phases.

 

Anyone can list off what makes a class strong and call it OP. Every class lacks something. Marauders lack a hard stun, the ability to attack at range (30 yards), the ability to actively heal, the ability to guard/taunt, the ability to pull, and relies on physical attacks that are affected by defense.

 

"Assassins are unbalanced because they have high burst and sustained DPS, high survivability and the ability to go into tank stance, a 20 second sprint that's great for escape/closing gaps, the ability to stay in permanent stealth and vanish to escape, the ability to pull, the ability to guard/taunt allies and opponents even as a dps, and have a balance of force based attacks and white damage that shred through most defenses. A combination of this makes assassins the most desired dps for warzones."

 

See what I did there, you can say this vaguely about any class, you need to point out specific abilities or there interactions with other abilities that make them game breaking. Just because a class has several strengths or good abilities doesn't mean it's broken lol (read: every class has a plethora of powerful spells and strengths/weaknesses, to point out balance issues you point out which abilities are broken or put the class over the top or if this is the interaction of two abilities). I can make a vague post listing off the strengths of a class and make it look overpowered as easily as I can throw together a peanut butter n jelly sandwich.

[GrantyJPS]

"What you did there" was pick the other class that has ridiculous amounts of powerful abilities....

[gherzon]

Undying Rage

Instant

 

Cooldown: 2 minutes

 

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. During this time incoming healing effects are reduced by 90%.

 

Undying (2/2) (Rage tree talent)

Increases damage reduction by 1/2%. Additionally reduces healing penalty by 20/40%.

[OGsam]

Can you explain what high burst abilities a marauder has?

 

Facetious or bad, your pick.

[Derian]

Can you explain what high burst abilities a marauder has?

 

Im still waiting for this answer.

[cashogy]

Exactly, that is my point. Well it's my point if you exclude snipers, tank assassins, deception assassins, concealment operatives, marauders, pyro powertecs, and madness sorcerers.

 

they really do not have a weakness. they have 3 great defensive cooldowns (saber ward, cloak of pain, and undying rage) and an emergency cloak to escape at the last minute. they have a very good gap closer and a handful of ways to slow/root their targets. and they have enormous damage potential.

 

a class whose sole purpose it to do damage should not be able to tank better in pvp than an actual tank can. this is the crux of the problem in my opinon. marauders have a huge amount of survivability compared to other dps classes.

 

adjusting the cooldown on undying rage would go a long way to helping balance pvp. but that is the only change i think needs to be made; if the devs pull the same "nerf it into oblivion" stuff they did with operative, it will be a shame

[TheManAndres]

how about making it decrease the damage you do by 25-50% while active:p

[booshido]

UR/GbtF is nearly an exact situation that happened in that other game when Rets were buffed and while they were bubbled they did high dmg.

 

Conclusion, when you are highly immune to dmg your dmg should be reduced so that you can't solo someone who immediately alt-tabs and makes another post here to ask for the nerf in a rash manner.

 

Th trade off is supposed to be the HP loss (50%), but the problem is that when the Mara/Sents are getting focused and they're about to kill that healer or some ****, they pop the CD to solely buy them time to finish them off, if/once successful they cloak and make a break for the WZ healing item. This is A-typical and doesn't always happen, but I've seen it a lot.

 

I have said that Maras/Sents are in a good spot right now. Overdoing it is the wrong approach.

 

Bottomline, keep their survivablity the same as it is now, but reduce the dmg they can put out while under these effects. This wouldn't be considered gamebreaking because the defensive CDs still serve their purpose, keeping them alive for healers to top them off, or make a break for a WZ healing item, or making that last 15 meters to the goal line in Huttball while the entire team is beating on them, etc.

[Altruismo]

Undying Rage

Instant

 

Cooldown: 2 minutes

 

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. During this time incoming healing effects are reduced by 90%.

 

Undying (2/2) (Rage tree talent)

Increases damage reduction by 1/2%. Additionally reduces healing penalty by 20/40%.

 

This is a step in the right direction, IMO.

There's no need to reduce the Maras damage output while bubbled.

Reducing their ability to heal is where it's at, but it has to be ONLY in PVP or else you mess unneccessarily with PVE.

Similarly there is no reason to increase the cooldown, Maras actually need their cooldowns, without them they are very squishy.

[LiveandDieinLA]

 

a class whose sole purpose it to do damage should not be able to tank better in pvp than an actual tank can. this is the crux of the problem in my opinon. marauders have a huge amount of survivability compared to other dps classes.

 

adjusting the cooldown on undying rage would go a long way to helping balance pvp. but that is the only change i think needs to be made; if the devs pull the same "nerf it into oblivion" stuff they did with operative, it will be a shame

 

Marauders are in fact noit able to tank at all. They have no guard, no taunts, which means they dont tank. What you mean to say is that they are more durable then tanks, which is also wrong. Just think about huttball, would you rather have an immortal jugg or a marauder carrying the ball for your team? Which is going to live longer?

[cashogy]

This is a step in the right direction, IMO.

There's no need to reduce the Maras damage output while bubbled.

Reducing their ability to heal is where it's at, but it has to be ONLY in PVP or else you mess unneccessarily with PVE.

Similarly there is no reason to increase the cooldown, Maras actually need their cooldowns, without them they are very squishy.

 

that is kind of the point. in the game of balancing an mmo, you need to have trade offs. if a class is good at multiple aspects of the game, balance issues arise.

 

you cant have a spec that is the best dps and the best survivability. right now marauders are able to tank damage more effectively than actual tanks in pvp.

 

high dps classes are supposed to be relatively squishy. it promotes the team dynamic of having healers and tanks, and everyone supports each other. when 1 class can cover two roles, it leads to balance issues

[doctorfirepants]

simply put they should have have the best defensive CD in the game. they are a pure dps class why would a pure dps even have a defensive CD to begin with. you take away all those defensive CDs and leave them thier dmg it would balance them out. to have the high damage with those CDs its OP to say the least.

 

so take away all thier damage reduction abilities and leave them thier damage output.

 

Why would a pure dps have a defensive cd? Because we don't have any real form of permanent defense.

The fact that they are in the middle of everything constantly...at least if they are doing their job, they simply cannot survive without any defensive CD's. No defensive Cd's = no dps = waste of a class. You are only looking at things from a very narrow minded point of view. If you have the class so figured out, I suggest you lvl one to 50 and play WZ's without ever touching your defensive CD's. Your damage would prob be around 50k. I understand it is easier to cry for a nerf than it is to learn how to play effectively....but people like you are ruining whats left of this game. It started with the over nerfing of operatives and will keep infecting every class as long as people like you refuse to learn to play.

[GrantyJPS]

That's the (general) idea of dps, they do high damage and die quickly

Tanks are supposed to do lower damage and not be as squishy.

 

I know, I know, I'm a genius. I should send this info to Georg, I bet he'll get quite a shock!

[doctorfirepants]

That's the (general) idea of dps, they do high damage and die quickly

Tanks are supposed to do lower damage and not be as squishy.

 

I know, I know, I'm a genius. I should send this info to Georg, I bet he'll get quite a shock!

 

And they do die quickly, when countered by someone who knows what they are doing. Unless of course there is a huge difference in gear, but that's a whole other issue.

[GrantyJPS]

Why would a pure dps have a defensive cd? Because we don't have any real form of permanent defense.

The fact that they are in the middle of everything constantly...at least if they are doing their job, they simply cannot survive without any defensive CD's. No defensive Cd's = no dps = waste of a class. You are only looking at things from a very narrow minded point of view. If you have the class so figured out, I suggest you lvl one to 50 and play WZ's without ever touching your defensive CD's. Your damage would prob be around 50k. I understand it is easier to cry for a nerf than it is to learn how to play effectively....but people like you are ruining whats left of this game. It started with the over nerfing of operatives and will keep infecting every class as long as people like you refuse to learn to play.

 

They are in the middle just as much as any other melee dps, who have nowhere near the CDs maras do. Or maybe the others don't just dive into the middle of the zerg because they know they CAN'T?!?

 

And you all seem to be under the impression that ranged only shoot at melee....

[Altruismo]

that is kind of the point. in the game of balancing an mmo, you need to have trade offs. if a class is good at multiple aspects of the game, balance issues arise.

 

you cant have a spec that is the best dps and the best survivability. right now marauders are able to tank damage more effectively than actual tanks in pvp.

 

high dps classes are supposed to be relatively squishy. it promotes the team dynamic of having healers and tanks, and everyone supports each other. when 1 class can cover two roles, it leads to balance issues

 

But maras don't cover two roles. They've got one role: DPS. Within that role they have two modes of operation:

1) Dealing damage

2) Being dead

 

Without their cooldowns they spend too much time being dead to be any use to anyone, duel a mara/sent who you know will go "all out" without using his defense cooldowns, they drop like a stone.