Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Doomsdaycomes]

The gap between Recruit to War Hero is noticeable, but you can still get to BM from Recruit with minimal effort. And the difference between BM and WH is negligible.

 

At least you can still progress in gear, without it costing you anything. When the game first launched, our first HM Ops attempts cost a fortune in credits due to bugs and learning the encounters. So your argument would be valid if there was a penalty for losing. You are rewarded no matter how well you do in PvP.

 

The bolded part is something I full-heartedly dislike. A PvE'er must finish 100% of the content to be rewarded (Downing a boss). A Pvp'er does not. Which is why I support making PvE gear viable in warzones, if it has a slower progression (lower drop rate or commendation based) and PvP losses reward almost nothing to nothing. If you are skilled in pvp (without expertise messing with you), you'll win more and progress in end game gear. If you're not, or the problem is a gear gap, then you have an alternate path to obtian gear.

[Hekiryuu]

I recently read a thread about the scrub mentality. This seems to apply. Scrubs want to safely grind away in PvE and ROFLStomp in PvP. I am not in the 50 bracket, but I am poorly geared, since i cant be hassled to waste my time/credits re-gearing every few levels. Even with me using gear 10-20 levels below me, none having expertise, I commonly hit 10+medals per map. Use every advantage you have access to, without cheating, to assure the win. If you don't, your a scrub. Don't B!7c4 when a non scrub that took the time to get better than you kills you. Just learn to play better.

 

All in all, getting your PvE raid gear on and being 80% in PvP vs non scrubs, and being 100% vs scrubs isn't actually that bad. Learn some new tactics and queue with a team of competent players. Use teamwork to drop the non scrubs till you can afford "OMG OP Gearzorz" and then join the non scrubs in the ROFLStomp. You'll prolly have to lose a few times till you got your PvE gear and your PvP gear. Or you could like, not do PvP much like the PvPers don't raid.

[Rogozhi]

I would never expect a Casual player to Troll the forum, read Q&As, and make a second job out of excelling at this game. The hardest thing for any MMORPG is to cater to both Casual players that want to have fun, and Hardcore players that think they are 1337, and everyone else suxorz and if you don't feel the same, play the same, or think the same as them, then as they don't meet every requirement listed, then they are a scrub. There in lies the Ranked vs. Unranked matches which would be Biowares answer to this debate.

 

Still the system is unbalanced when considering people who are just starting to PVP vs. Hardened PVPers with all the Expertise in the world.

 

A lot of this will be answered after the Cross Server PVP is up and running. More people to pull from means better spread of gear levels, meaning better chance at surviving longer then 5 seconds.

 

See this: http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/

 

Someone in Recruit vs War Hero will be experiencing 10% more or less damage. A 2k hit becomes 2.2k or 1.8k. That's just not the reason people are getting facerolled.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I recently read a thread about the scrub mentality. This seems to apply. Scrubs want to safely grind away in PvE and ROFLStomp in PvP. I am not in the 50 bracket, but I am poorly geared, since i cant be hassled to waste my time/credits re-gearing every few levels. Even with me using gear 10-20 levels below me, none having expertise, I commonly hit 10+medals per map. Use every advantage you have access to, without cheating, to assure the win. If you don't, your a scrub. Don't B!7c4 when a non scrub that took the time to get better than you kills you. Just learn to play better.

 

All in all, getting your PvE raid gear on and being 80% in PvP vs non scrubs, and being 100% vs scrubs isn't actually that bad. Learn some new tactics and queue with a team of competent players. Use teamwork to drop the non scrubs till you can afford "OMG OP Gearzorz" and then join the non scrubs in the ROFLStomp. You'll prolly have to lose a few times till you got your PvE gear and your PvP gear. Or you could like, not do PvP much like the PvPers don't raid.

 

Not sure what this is in reference too, but let me repeat.

 

If you fail a warzone, you are reward.

If you fail a boss, you are -not- rewarded.

 

Now, as you have gone on to quote Playing to Win from Sirlin.net, though I'm sure you probably read the recent forum plagiarising his work, let's apply it to the situation above.

 

Let's say, it is changed to the system I mentioned, where PvP and PvE have equally viable rewards (2 paths of equal work, 1 reward) and expertise is no longer a factor. You enter a warzone and find despite using your best tactics, you (or your team) are beaten by another player (or team) wearing higher tier gear. Everytime you lose, you can not receive anything to give you an advantage next time (loss = no reward).

 

"Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

 

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant." --- Sirlin.net

 

A player willing to do both pvp and pve (as you put it "grind it out safely") will then move to content he has an advantage over. He'll choose PvE, grind it, exploit it, find runs that give him the best rewards quickly. He'll balance his gear and find the best combination. This player will us everything available to gain an "advantage" or ..."Play to Win."

 

Now let's take your "true pvp'er approach." You will head into a situation you know you have a disadvantage, trying to "learn" better counters and such against a player (or a team of players) who has the same skill as you do but better gear, and in the process losing valuable time you could have spent actually progressing. Even worse, your constant attempts to beat them continue to make them stronger via rewards. You will not participate in PvE because you are? ... " bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing."

 

So. ^_^ who's the scrub again? The person who wants multiple ways to gain an advantage, or the person who wants to "earn their stripes the -right- way?"

Edited April 30, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Obtena]

Having played other games, I think expertise is the easiest way for developers to address inbalances that exist between PVP and PVE encounters. Sure their are drawbacks to that system (separate gearing for PVP and PVE are immediately coming to mind) and there might be a debate about HOW expertise is implement (Damage done, taken and healing VS. something else) but to get rid of it entirely would then require BW to actually balance PVP at the expense of PVE or vice versa. Expertise is necessary so PVE aspects of the game don't affect PVP ones and vice versa.

 

I think a failure to recognize why Expertise is necessary is a failure to see that PVP and PVE are different.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Having played other games, I think expertise is the easiest way for developers to address inbalances that exist between PVP and PVE encounters. Sure their are drawbacks to that system (separate gearing for PVP and PVE are immediately coming to mind) and there might be a debate about HOW expertise is implement (Damage done, taken and healing VS. something else) but to get rid of it entirely would then require BW to actually balance PVP at the expense of PVE or vice versa. Expertise is necessary so PVE aspects of the game don't affect PVP ones and vice versa.

 

I think a failure to recognize why Expertise is necessary is a failure to see that PVP and PVE are different.

 

^_^ If I may, though I'm not sure if it was in this forum or not, the idea has been thrown around of applying a combat buff in pvp (like bolster for sub-50) that would essentially give everyone +X expertise, to balance pvp. It takes the expertise off the gear, and applies it to a buff.

 

Of course, this creates more work in that then PvP and PvE progression must be roughly equal to prevent "Raider's owning" because they can gear faster. That's a problem that unfortunately will take alot of work. Expertise on gear and the seperation of end-game content is a quick fix. We can only hope it buys Bioware enough time to find a better one.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Finnius]

So there's been a lot of talk about 'scrub mentality' which is frankly BS and doesn't really apply to a mechanical conversation about why expertise, as a stat, is harmful to your overall game design. Lack of skill and unwillingness to gear is one thing.

 

Giving one side an advantage on gearing compared to the other side is entirely another. As it stands the BM set is equivalent to the Columi set. The disparity in these sets should favor BM in PVP and Columi in PVE, which it does - just greatly more so in favor of BM in PVE and slightly more in favor of Columi in PVE.

 

There is no real comparison between the two for PVP. BM wins hands down. But let's take another step down and see what happens. (Obviously without tinkering with remoding the gear and such.)

 

Recruit gear is perfectly viable for gearing in HM FPs. (Tested it a bit to make sure.) Tionese gear in a WZ will get you steamrolled with little to no reward. Now a step up - WH gear in PVP is obviously quite good. It also holds up well in normal ops, higher end FPs, and nearly all the open-world PVE content. Rakata gear in PVP is about as good as Tionese.

 

Are you seeing what I'm getting at here? The highest end PVE gear might as well be worthless in post-50 PVP. The highest-end PVP gear remains viable enough to gear you into end-game PVE content via the rewards you'll get from running HM FPs and low-level Ops without requiring that you buy an intermediary PVE set that strips most of your stats off.

 

Justify it however you want, that's not good for the community. I put in time and effort to get good PVE gear. I'm not saying I want it to be better than PVP gear. I just want it to be good enough that I don't have to ignore it in favor of blues in order to PVP.

[Bazzoong]

^^ The thing as it stands now is: in pve gear is reward that helps you to do new content, in pvp gear is NOT a reward it is a REQUIREMENT, there is no pvp content to progress through while steadily gearing up and getting ready for the next step in the contents difficulty that way, In pvp you get thrown into the NM mode as soon as you join a lvl 50 wz, you will instantly face the best competition there is both in experience and gear.

 

So expertise is needed to give newer players any chance at all, I really think they should increase the expertise on recruit gear to the lvl of bm gear, they have less other stats so why punish them twice.

 

The problem with the scrub approach is that at a certain point it will be impossible to catch up with the play to win guys no matter what you do as long as there is any variation on gear and stats at all. This would ruin the game since no new players would start pvp, a lot of them are to scared to even try now.

 

So expertise is needed as a means of balance.

 

It does not matter if your gear is blue or purple, what matters is it helps you, so get it.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Dekai]

Something that's been brought up repeatedly, which is starting to peeve the hell out of me, is people confusing gear tiers.

 

Columi is NOT the PvE equivilant of Battlemaster!

 

Tionese = Level 50 PvP blue's, that were removed from the game shortly after launch.

Columi = Champion Gear, now replaced with the new level 50 Blue Recruit gear.

Rakata = Battlemaster.

Black Hole = War Hero.

 

 

People really need to do their research before they start Tier Comparisons and talking stat distrabution.

Just forget Tionese even exists if that helps.

[Finnius]

^^

So expertise is needed as a means of balance.

 

People keep making this argument and it keeps being untrue. Expertise normalizes damage done and taken to roughly equal levels while buffing healing a bit. There is NO reason the same can't be done with a global buff / debuff inside WZs. The difference in stats and set bonus then becomes the defining factor of PVP gear vs. PVE gear, which makes matches much more even.

 

The guy in good PVP gear still has an advantage over the guy in good PVE gear, but it's not skewing the metrics to the degree that the PVE guy has literally no chance.

[Bazzoong]

People keep making this argument and it keeps being untrue. Expertise normalizes damage done and taken to roughly equal levels while buffing healing a bit. There is NO reason the same can't be done with a global buff / debuff inside WZs. The difference in stats and set bonus then becomes the defining factor of PVP gear vs. PVE gear, which makes matches much more even.

 

The guy in good PVP gear still has an advantage over the guy in good PVE gear, but it's not skewing the metrics to the degree that the PVE guy has literally no chance.

 

The difference in stats would favor the pve guy heavily if there was a global buff debuff. The only way other than expertise of balancing would be if pvp and pve gear would offer the exact same stats, I`d go with that be assured.

 

At the moment you are not supposed to use pve gear in pvp, doing so is suicide, even out- dated pvp gear (cham cent( is suicide this is by design.

So get that recruit gear, no excuses, get it.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Are you seeing what I'm getting at here? The highest end PVE gear might as well be worthless in post-50 PVP. The highest-end PVP gear remains viable enough to gear you into end-game PVE content via the rewards you'll get from running HM FPs and low-level Ops without requiring that you buy an intermediary PVE set that strips most of your stats off.

 

Justify it however you want, that's not good for the community. I put in time and effort to get good PVE gear. I'm not saying I want it to be better than PVP gear. I just want it to be good enough that I don't have to ignore it in favor of blues in order to PVP.

 

I've got your back there. ^_^ I came from MMO's (as I've said) where there was no "pvp" reward or gear. You wanted to pvp, you -played- the game to it's fullest. Now, not saying someone should have to "Grind PvE" if they enjoy pvp, but someone shouldn't be prevented from doing so.

 

 

^^ The thing as it stands now is: in pve gear is reward that helps you to do new content, in pvp gear is NOT a reward it is a REQUIREMENT, there is no pvp content to progress through while steadily gearing up and getting ready for the next step in the contents difficulty that way, In pvp you get thrown into the NM mode as soon as you join a lvl 50 wz, you will instantly face the best competition there is both in experience and gear.

 

So expertise is needed to give newer players any chance at all, I really think they should increase the expertise on recruit gear to the lvl of bm gear, they have less other stats so why punish them twice.

 

The problem with the scrub approach is that at a certain point it will be impossible to catch up with the play to win guys no matter what you do as long as there is any variation on gear and stats at all. This would ruin the game since no new players would start pvp, a lot of them are to scared to even try now.

 

So expertise is needed as a means of balance.

 

It does not matter if your gear is blue or purple, what matters is it helps you, so get it.

 

I swear, people use words they don't understand in an attempt to feel smarter. Can you even tell me where the term "Scrub" comes from without looking at google?

 

On to the main point. If expertise were removed, there would -have- to be an ingame mechanic for pvp combat because certian abilities -must- be function differently or they are unbalanced in one of the two "types" of content. There have been several suggestions (Pvp Combat buff) that also come up with other problems that need to be solved, but they are a step away from the current seperation of end game content.

 

Now, as for this line:

 

The problem with the scrub approach is that at a certain point it will be impossible to catch up with the play to win guys no matter what you do as long as there is any variation on gear and stats at all. This would ruin the game since no new players would start pvp, a lot of them are to scared to even try now.

 

The variations of gear would be available to all who put in the same amount of work. MMO's have gear, that's the mechanic of the game. Everyone can potentially get the gear. Gear has a "ceiling" until new content is released. If there are multiple paths to get the gear, then you can not be "blocked" by a more geared player. Which is why seperating pvp and pve gear entirely is a -harmful- thing to new players.

 

Unless you're advocating no gear, which is not how an MMO works.

[Finnius]

The difference in stats would favor the pve guy heavily if there was a global buff debuff. The only way other than expertise of balancing would be if pvp and pve gear would offer the exact same stats, I`d go with that be assured.

 

At the moment you are not supposed to use pve gear in pvp, doing so is suicide, even out- dated pvp gear (cham cent( is suicide this is by design.

So get that recruit gear, no excuses, get it.

 

I've spelled it out in plain terms earlier in this very thread, but I'll do so again for your benefit. If you remove expertise from PVP gear, you then use those stat points to cover the spread to equivalent PVE levels. This may or may not take the form of the exact same stats or skew it in favor of offense or defense as is desired, but you'll end up with the same stat spread.

 

Now stop pretending I'm advocating a flat removal with no recompense.

[SWGElder]

It's funny to hear people complain about expertise. doesn't WoW have the same thing? At least here you can buy your recruit gear. I worked my arse off just to get all my champ gear then 1.2 comes out and in two day(just this weekend) I'm two pieces away from completing my BM gear. This is by far the easiest game to get PvP gear that I have played. I remember before this game came out I was playing WoW and it took forever to get PvP gear.

 

So Please stop the QQ and just put in some work to get the gear and once you get your BM gear and you are still getting your arse kicked then you sir just suck. NUFF SAID!!!!

[Bazzoong]

^^ (doomsday)you are a scrub, you try to have an argument to change the game to a set of rules in your mind that do not apply to this game, this game is about expertise if it comes to pvp now.

 

I guess that serves.

 

Get expertise or lose, it is as simple as this, the difference between scrubs like you and decent players is decent players make their chars work while you want to change the game in your favor.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Finnius]

I'm not trying to start a flame war with a barely literate forum troll. I'm talking about closing an artificial gear gap that separates gear of the supposedly same tiers into two unequal groups. It's amazing how you can spout off that I must just be a bad scrub without knowing what I play, what my records are, even what server I'm on.

 

Not everyone who advocates for change to benefit the community as a whole is unskilled. I'd wager it's people who can't deal with the thought of equal footing and skill-based PVP rather than gear-based who have more to lose.

[Bazzoong]

I've spelled it out in plain terms earlier in this very thread, but I'll do so again for your benefit. If you remove expertise from PVP gear, you then use those stat points to cover the spread to equivalent PVE levels. This may or may not take the form of the exact same stats or skew it in favor of offense or defense as is desired, but you'll end up with the same stat spread.

 

Now stop pretending I'm advocating a flat removal with no recompense.

 

Ok, as I said I`d be totally ok with exactly the same stats on pve and pvp gear. My earlier post is @doomsday, edited for clarity.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Finnius]

Ok, as I said I`d be totally ok with exactly the same stats on pve and pvp gear.

 

Awesome, headway. (And just for clarification, had two posts in there in short order - the previous one wasn't at you, it was at the guy above.)

 

Just because WoW made a huge balls-up in designing the way their PVP and PVE content fit together doesn't mean TOR has to make the same mistake. Progress, people.

[Baizak]

Somebody that spends all of their time doing hard modes and raiding should not be able to go toe to toe with somebody that spends all of their time PvPing. Same that somebody in full PvP gear should not be able to go into a HM or OP and be top heals, dps, or a better tank in PvP gear.

[Doomsdaycomes]

^^ (doomsday)you are a scrub, you try to have an argument to change the game to a set of rules in your mind that do not apply to this game, this game is about expertise if it comes to pvp now.

 

I guess that serves.

 

Get expertise or lose, it is as simple as this, the difference between scrubs like you and decent players is decent players make their chars work while you want to change the game in your favor.

 

^_^ You assume I don't have expertise, or that I do not use it, from a conversation in a forum talking about the pro's and cons of expertise, as well a few alternate systems that have been brought up. You have no knowledge of how I play in the current situation, and your brain can not wrap it's mind around the abstract thought of hypothetical conversation.

 

You also advocate for a system of running your head into a brick wall over and over until you "learn" the counter to a gear imbalance against an opponent who has the potential to have the exact same skill level, team skill level, etc... and anyone who would seek a different advantage before the match even starts isn't doing it right. This is a moment for a facepalm.

 

This is my last reply to you.

[Tremont]

it can be done is oready in game level 10 to 49 best pvp on this game and NO EXPERTISE

 

^^^THIS. There is a reason why pre-50 PvP is much more fun. If I could turn off my XP at 49 I would.

 

Bolster is there to even the playing field, no need for Expertise. It just makes PvP a gear grind.

[Olympic]

Another point to consider is if/when they get a real open world PvP system going, expertise gates huge parts of the population from going there if they are going to get facerolled.

 

I myself have BM/WH gero on two toons, no big deal to ME, but what about those people that PvE that want to go PvP now and then? Or even more? They are going to have to grind through war zones to get gear just tobe competitive in open world PvP?

 

That's stupid.

[Bazzoong]

^^(doomsday)great, bail out.

 

The brick wall in this game concerning pvp gear is more like a paper paravent, I do not care how you play or what "skills" you sport, you are suggesting unspecified in game mechanics to even out gear while bashing at expertise, to me all you have posted culminates in "BiS pve gear should let you allow to faceroll" expertise as it is now helps new players that is a good thing, period.

 

As suggested the exact same stats on pve and pvp gear would be an alternative, this would mean rakata level gear should be purchasable for 380k the full set at the pvp vendor.

 

Because it goes like this:

 

Rakata = Recruit

BM = Black Hole/Cam.

WH = Camp. NM

Edited April 30, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Gorghte]

^^^THIS. There is a reason why pre-50 PvP is much more fun. If I could turn off my XP at 49 I would.

 

Bolster is there to even the playing field, no need for Expertise. It just makes PvP a gear grind.

 

pre-50 PvP is also gear dependent since all characters are gear dependent since that is the only way to get stats regardless of which stat it is. Purple gear > Blue gear > Green gear. Player crafted purples with augment slots greater still.

 

PvP at 50 needs to be a gear grind since PvE is a gear grind and people who want to PvP and not PvE need a way to be competitive in PvP to the PvErs who come in wearing Columni and Rakata and Black Hole.

 

Regardless of what method the designers come up with the balance and/or separate PvP and PvE play, some subset of players will ***** and moan about it. This is the system they have, if you like it great, if you don't sorry. If they change it to suite your needs/wants, some one else will find fault and want it changed to meet their needs.

 

My solution is to just deal with how it is, until they decide to change it, and then I will adapt. I chose to play 1 class in PvP and another in PvE. Both are 50 and I am having a lot of fun doing both. As a fresh 50, I bought 3 BM and the rest recruit a couple days after 1.2 landed. This gave me 940 expertise or so and I competed fine in PvP. Now in about 3 weeks I have full BM and still compete well in PvP even against WH geared players.

[Dekai]

^^(doomsday)great, bail out.

 

The brick wall in this game concerning pvp gear is more like a paper paravent, I do not care how you play or what "skills" you sport, you are suggesting unspecified in game mechanics to even out gear while bashing at expertise, to me all you have posted comulinates in "BiS pve gear should let you allow to faceroll" expertise as it is now helps new players that is a good thing, period.

 

As suggested the exact same stats on pve and pvp gear would be an alternative, this would mean rakata level gear should be purchasable for 380k the full set at the pvp vendor.

 

Because it goes like this:

 

Rakata = Recruit

BM = Black Hole/Cam.

WH = Camp. NM

 

Not going to defend Doomsday, but uh..

 

Something that's been brought up repeatedly, which is starting to peeve the hell out of me, is people confusing gear tiers.

 

Columi is NOT the PvE equivilant of Battlemaster!

 

Tionese = Level 50 PvP blue's, that were removed from the game shortly after launch.

Columi = Champion Gear, now replaced with the new level 50 Blue Recruit gear.

Rakata = Battlemaster.

Black Hole = War Hero.

 

 

People really need to do their research before they start Tier Comparisons and talking stat distribution.

Just forget Tionese even exists if that helps.