Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Aussiedroid]

Expertise is a stat that encourages the player to gear through pvp for pvp gear. If you can't handle shelling out for recruit gear or spending any time at all getting a decent pvp set then pls just stick to heroic 4 mans.

 

OH that sounds like the best solution .. sounds like you might be part of the PVP design team huh?

 

You know that there could be other solutions to encourage players to play PVP right?

 

I can handle spending the credits, I can handle time spent for progression but I cannot handle the biased, uneven playfield that Expertise results in. It is clearly a poor solution.

 

Well at the moment atleast Heroics are some fun even though they are super easy to finish even with the basic Recuit gear LOL. Same cannot be said for the warzones.

[Rogozhi]

Expertise makes it possible for the developers to make changes to PvP without throwing off the balance of PvE.

 

You sir, win a cookie. Not only does expertise provide a fairly level playing feild, it also allows the devs to reduce and increase damage and mitigation by modifying the stat.

 

What's the big issue anyways? Are people honestly all up about not being able to wear Columni/Rakata gear? Is that it? If you want the nice gear for PvP then PvP! A fresh 50 should be starting with 2 pieces of BM and a full recruit set, which gives a pretty nice amount of expertise to compete.

[HGSolo]

Expertise or any other crutch stat is a bad idea. Balance the game pvp first then adjust the pve accordingly. Who cares if you have to adjust the mobs or encounters HPs or DPS but go screwing with players and their gear and you have problems.

 

Pre 50 pvp > 50 pvp

 

PVP should be about skill and not about gear

 

My hats off to the people who came up with Bolster, the fact that buff can balance such a wide range of level and gear is amazing. I find pre 50 pvp to be much more fair and about skill then about gear.

 

People who say Expertise is functioning as intended.... sure it is, to split the player base from pvp and pve players. This is a mistake when the player base is shrinking. Expertise will be the undoing.

 

What is wrong with allowing gear to be viable pvp and pve? why the need to separate the player base? If you complain about WZ Q's taking too long or not enough on during off hours this could be part of the reason and splitting the base just hurts everything in the long run.

 

I have 2 lvl 50 BM geared toons and am in the process of starting 2 other toons as I enjoyed the skill based play of the pre 50 pvp over the gear based 50 pvp.

 

Those who support a crutch stat like expertise obviously are afraid of skill being the determining factor in pvp.

 

Take a look at how well the pre50 pvp runs and plays compared to the expertise driven 50 pvp

 

BOO to Expertise and Bravo to Bolster

 

Continue to split the player base and see how long WZ Q's start taking... Works as intended....

[halorix]

Oh yet another one of these...

 

Yes its meant to keep pvp and pve gearing separated so there are two different gear progressions in the game, news flash even if they got rid of expertise you would STILL die to people who had the best gear regardless.

 

I think you actually mean to complain about the fact this is a item based game.

[Rogozhi]

No. Just no. You don't balance a game around PvP. The majority of the players are PvE based and re balancing hundreds of mobs takes a little more time than tweaking a stat like expertise.

 

Edit: About skill and not gear? Opening up the gear tiers to everything in PvE would absolutely make it more about gear than anything else. As it is there are really only two tiers of PvP gear: BM and WH. If you do any decent amount of PvP you should be sitting in full BM in two weeks.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Rogozhi

[Tarlach]

I largely agree with this thread and have been meaning to post something similar. I think it's important to be able to gear up in PvP or PvE and still be viable in the other. Clearly, one should have an edge in PvP if a person gets PvP gear, but it should be a modest boost, not the staggering benefit it is today.

[Mojitin]

Yes let's remove expertise so I can roll up in HM EC gear and freight train everyone that wears Columi and Rakata to a warzone.

[Rogozhi]

Yes let's remove expertise so I can roll up in HM EC gear and freight train everyone that wears Columi and Rakata to a warzone.

 

I would really like to know how the anti-expertise crowd figures we can get around this.

[Mojitin]

I would really like to know how the anti-expertise crowd figures we can get around this.

 

There isn't a way without expertise. It's the reason WoW added a pvp stat as well. PvE geared raiders with legendary weapons would slaughter far better players because of gear disparity.

 

Edit: The other reason WoW did what it did was to try and keep PvE gear out of pvp. That way both can be balanced easier and you can make flavorful items for both without affecting the other. SWTOR is doing the same because it's the best way to do things.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Mojitin

[Dekai]

As mentioned before, Expertise is there for a few reasons. One is to separate the progression paths of PvE and PvP. Another is to help balance PvP by adjusting how Expertise contributes to damage done and reduction.

 

Those calling it the "WoW generation" obviously never had top gear in Vanilla. My Tier 3 Warrior, absolutely wrecked anyone in PvP, rogues in T3 were even scarier... And before the 1.2 Expertise changes? My Powertech Pyro would do Warzones in Rakata gear since the 2 and 4 piece was better, stats were better, and Expertise hardly did anything since still had 9% compared to a full BM of 14%.

 

It's working as designed. None of this Farming highest Raid gear expecting to roll people over in PvP, and vice versa, no getting War Hero and expecting to do as much damage/survival/healing as someone in equal level PvE gear for Operations.

 

We call this, balancing. So not terrible, but a wonderful thing.

[Altruismo]

Sure, as soon as Bioware makes it impossible to use your PVP gear in PVE.

 

Clearly you did not notice that PVE gear is better in PVE than PVP gear is.

Similarly, PVP gear is better in PVP.

 

If by "impossible" you mean nobody will take you seriously for joining some OPS groups unless you're wearing high level PVE gear, then mission accomplished.

At least in full PVE gear you can click "Queue Solo" and go PVP while deliberately gimping yourself and then come here and blame bioware when perfectly viable PVP gear is available to you already for ~320k credits.

[Finnius]

Clearly you did not notice that PVE gear is better in PVE than PVP gear is.

Similarly, PVP gear is better in PVP.

 

If by "impossible" you mean nobody will take you seriously for joining some OPS groups unless you're wearing high level PVE gear, then mission accomplished.

At least in full PVE gear you can click "Queue Solo" and go PVP while deliberately gimping yourself and then come here and blame bioware when perfectly viable PVP gear is available to you already for ~320k credits.

 

I'm not talking about ops. I'm not talking about PVP gear being 'better' than PVE in PVP, PVE gear in PVP of ANY level post-50 is simply bad. Meanwhile, PVP gear in PVE up to most HMs is perfectly viable. Meaning you can get PVP gear and then level into PVE quite efficiently without requiring some ******** median gear set to do so.

 

You cannot say the same about PVE gear in PVP. You just lose. Forever. Because of a badly designed stat. You want a fix for how to balance how much damage players do to each other without expertise? It's simple. Use a global buff / debuff, like what Bolster already does. Hey look. I fixed your game.

[Mojitin]

Yes let's normalize players in pvp so I can take all my gear off and do well because there is no sense of progression.

[Dekai]

I'm not talking about ops. I'm not talking about PVP gear being 'better' than PVE in PVP, PVE gear in PVP of ANY level post-50 is simply bad. Meanwhile, PVP gear in PVE up to most HMs is perfectly viable. Meaning you can get PVP gear and then level into PVE quite efficiently without requiring some ******** median gear set to do so.

 

You cannot say the same about PVE gear in PVP. You just lose. Forever. Because of a badly designed stat. You want a fix for how to balance how much damage players do to each other without expertise? It's simple. Use a global buff / debuff, like what Bolster already does. Hey look. I fixed your game.

 

Did you really just compare Warzones, with players in it equiped with Battlemaster+ level of gear, with Normal mode Dungeons and pre 1.2 HM Flashpoints? ... Flashpoints? I've cleared those in level 40'ish Blue modded Orange Gear! Yes, the Hard Mode versions. There's no comparison unless it is to Operations and the HM Equivalents.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

OH that sounds like the best solution .. sounds like you might be part of the PVP design team huh?

 

You know that there could be other solutions to encourage players to play PVP right?

 

I can handle spending the credits, I can handle time spent for progression but I cannot handle the biased, uneven playfield that Expertise results in. It is clearly a poor solution.

 

Well at the moment atleast Heroics are some fun even though they are super easy to finish even with the basic Recuit gear LOL. Same cannot be said for the warzones.

 

To you yes, not to everyone, remember we are all individuals who think we know best and have the most valid opinions, we do not.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I'm not talking about ops. I'm not talking about PVP gear being 'better' than PVE in PVP, PVE gear in PVP of ANY level post-50 is simply bad. Meanwhile, PVP gear in PVE up to most HMs is perfectly viable. Meaning you can get PVP gear and then level into PVE quite efficiently without requiring some ******** median gear set to do so.

 

You cannot say the same about PVE gear in PVP. You just lose. Forever. Because of a badly designed stat. You want a fix for how to balance how much damage players do to each other without expertise? It's simple. Use a global buff / debuff, like what Bolster already does. Hey look. I fixed your game.

 

So long as we get a global buff to run nightmare ops also, we want everyone to be able to do all content on an equal footing right, that's really what you are asking for isn't it?

 

Gear progression, as much as I myself found the old pre 1.2 grind tedious, is what makes some people continue to subscribe, now, for PVP, you only have one grind, and that is for War Hero, BM set is a piece of cake, it is merely a time sink. albeit a quite short one if you put the warzones under your belt.

 

What i am seeing here is people who spend 95% of their time in the PVE realm, throwing their rattles from the pram, because they want the same gear as someone who might play 95% of their time in PVP. Why pray tell, should you have the same rewards? You cannot expect to have the best PVP gear, if you only do it as a passing fancy. People who put the hours in have no issue with expertise, as they are fully aware as to how things work outside of "fluffy pillow land".

 

I run a couple of HM FPs a week at most, do I deserve a full Rakata set as a reward?

Edited April 30, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[Finnius]

Aside from being incredibly condescending and short sighted, you're also missing the point entirely. You just don't get that there is a HUGE gulf between viability of gear between PVP and PVE gear. The fact that you can do the gearing HM FP runs in your PVP gear with no trouble means that your gear is intrinsically BETTER than the gear we get.

 

The global buff / debuff replacing expertise is simply a means of refuting that there's no other way to normalize damage in PVP without resorting to a forced gear decision. I have no problem with PVP gear being better for PVP than PVE gear is, I have a problem with PVE gear being completely useless at all levels in PVP.

 

And the culprit there is expertise.

 

Saying that ALL PVP is, should be, and must be equivalent to a HM Operation is frankly ridiculous. If this game were catered only to the most hardcore players, it'd be a lot smaller than it already is. Attempting to close the wide gear disparity that makes max-level PVP frustratingly imbalanced is nothing at all like whining and throwing things.

 

Unless you're just worried you can't compete on an even field.

[Razot]

Boo to the anti expertise people..

 

Expertise and Ilums open world PVP have been Gabes finest achievements in TOR!

[Wesgile]

highest level of activity for pve = nightmare mode ops.

highest level of activity for pvp = ... guess what? lvl 50 pvp, atleast until rated is out.

 

2 options:

- cant use pvp gear for nightmare mode, shouldn't be able to use pve gear for pvp.

- can use either pvp or pve gear for both ends.

 

personally, i dont mind with either. but i reckon there's a strong wind blowing from the pve camp about pvpers completing pve contents, so...

[Ushela]

Again....this is thread #5646454 regarding an issue that noobs just dont understand. Expertise exists for the sake of balancing the game. You throw out expertise and I will ROLL EVERYONE in my NM PVE campaign gear that most of you wont ever get until after the tier becomes obsolete, and its handed out to you later in the future. Fine with me, I dont care.

 

OR, we can keep expertise and you can spend A WEEK farming a set of BM PVP GEAR (wow a whole week) and compete on an even playing field with the other 438943483 people who farmed their PVP sets. Ridiculous this issue keeps being brought up.

 

They already made it SO EASY to get some expertise gear so that fresh 50s can compete. Sure, you will lose 1v1 to full BM+ players for week, take your hits and get geared up.

 

You cannot allow the elite PVE crowd to own in PVP. Why do you think WoW introduced a pvp stat? This is not rocket science why cant people understand this....

Edited April 30, 2012 by Ushela

[mechintel]

You cannot allow the elite PVE crowd to own in PVP. Why do you think WoW introduced a pvp stat? This is not rocket science why cant people understand this....

 

I miss the old days of WoW when the elite PvE crowd owned in PvP. It made raids all the more exciting and meaningful. You'd go up against someone who was decked out in raid gear and instead of crying you would say "Hey maybe I should start raiding so I can get gear like that." Back then it wasn't like you were playing two separate games, you were encouraged to explore all the things the game offers.

 

Of course, if you can't do HMs in SWTOR you are pretty much a mouth-breather so it doesn't matter what gear you have.

Edited April 30, 2012 by mechintel

[Coplann]

There isn't a way without expertise. It's the reason WoW added a pvp stat as well. PvE geared raiders with legendary weapons would slaughter far better players because of gear disparity.

 

Edit: The other reason WoW did what it did was to try and keep PvE gear out of pvp. That way both can be balanced easier and you can make flavorful items for both without affecting the other. SWTOR is doing the same because it's the best way to do things.

 

no the best way to do it is have real hard stat caps and never allow anything above it. Then give incentives to do PvP via a separate skill/perk based character development. Look into Dark Age of Camelot for details.

 

Level 60 gear on a level 50 player? should only give the same stats as level 50 gear would. gear != skill

[AlbertXP]

So you want to make PvE gear viable in PvP? Are you mad? What if the set bonus is actually better so that to max your PvP you'd have to have full PvE gear? That makes no sense at all. I do not wish to farm npcs for gear once a week, nor do i wish to have people who do one-shot me in pvp.

You want to PvP for the first time? Get your recruit set like the rest of them and shut up.

[CaptFalc]

I have to agree, this is one of my first MMO's and I can't believe that they divide their members, It does not sound logical in my opinion, especially when servers are low populated as WoW definitely had better servers.

[Butterpants]

but if expertise didnt exist the players in top raiding guilds would dominate in pvp because of gear differences. and believe me, just because somebody is a good raider doesnt mean theyre a skilled player and good at pvp. so again, youd have a situation of players doing well in pvp without skill.

 

do you guys even use your brain before you post?