Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Dekai]

Less a defense of expertise and more an explanation, but it's something. What it comes down to, so far as I can tell, is that people want to pretend that even with the same stats and better set bonuses for PVP, high end PVE gear would somehow be 'better' in PVP.

 

Which leads me to seriously doubt the confidence you PVPers seem to have in your skills.

 

Why do you always have to insult those who PvP? You want to know, why expertise is in the game? Most will say because that is how the Developers want it, to separate PvP and PvE. This should be good enough for you, but it's obviously not, so will go into further details.

 

A "PvP Stat" is introduced into a game for various reasons, so will list them, best to my knowledge at the moment, and will add more later if I remember anything.

 

- Balance reasons. If players are taking too much damage, or too little, or unable to keep up in healing, the PvP designers can adjust the PvP stat as needed. For example, If expertise were to grant 25% damage bonus to players, 10% damage reduction, and 30% bonus healing(all made up numbers) at 2000 Expertise rating, and players were dieing too fast, with number tweaks they can move the bonus damage to damage reduction, healing etc. Now, you may say that "Hey! They can achieve that with a Warzone buff as well, making everyone equal!" While this would be somewhat true, this buff would have to be in every zone as well due to world PvP(Yes, it does happen once in a blue moon) and hopefully a new "Ilum" that's not broken.

 

- To purposely separate PvP and PvE end game. Some may hate it, some may love it and others are indifferent to it, but that's how it's currently designed. Notice I said "currently", please take note of that. With a PvP stat, Endurance, Base Attribute etc are lowered to allocate points into this PvP stat. What this does is make the PvP gear less desirable in a PvE settings since base stats effect Crit, Damage etc and instead ties this damage to the PvP stat to work only against other players. Same thing in reverse for PvE gear. You gain more damage from base stats, but if you fight another players with the PVP stat you're tri-screwed in equal Item Level Gear. You can still do damage to the other player, but they will be doing 20%+ more damage to you, and taking 15%+ less damage from your attacks, the trade off being in a PvE environment you would do more damage in your Rakata gear where their Battlemaster gear would do far less.

 

- Elitism/Entitlement. Yes this is one reason, upsetting as it may sound. There are more people who enjoy one aspect of the game, then others who can participate in all aspects equally. So someone who exclusively raids, wiping on Nightmare mode bosses, racking up repair bills, consumable costs, dependent on others, like it or not(Yes, some people raid with others they hate, just to raid), gets rather pissed off if someone got gear their level without having to do the things they did to acquire it. Same thing for PvP players. They ground through Warzones, tolerating bad players, afk'rs, quitters, ragers etc. Why should someone who got carried in PvE by 7 other people be able to compete in high end Warzones equally to them? Especially "That dumb guild who farms gear for alts, no skill required just luck on drops!"(I've done this in guilds before, carried alts get geared so fast)

 

The reason are numerous as to why a PvP stat is in the game. But for now, it's all opinions based on how the game is "currently" designed. As a gear driven MMO. New content brings new gear to get, the carrot on a stick to keep you going night after night into those Warzones or Operations. Does it suck as a new player once the game been out for a while? Ya, a little. But you'll notice it's not that bad since with each content patch, they make both end games easy to access still through things like, Recruit gear, Raid level mods/armoring/enhancements being easier to come by etc.

 

So for now, expertise is in, and not going away, not with how gear and the current game design is. Can it change in the future? Massive update patch? An expansion? Most assuredly, yes it could change. So instead of people arguing it breaks the game, ruins the game, etc... Post constructive suggestions on how a new method could be implemented in the suggestion forums. And be open minded to others ideas if they try to add to your own, you never know, could work even better then.

 

That's all I can think of currently, based purely on my observations and opinion, since none of us are privy to the true data that Bioware uses and has.

[entropicdecay]

Expertise is the reason level 50 warzones are so much less fun than 10-49 warzones.

[Vulgarr]

Expertise is the reason level 50 warzones are so much less fun than 10-49 warzones.

and a lvl 10 says that the warzones at 10-49 bracket are not fun because they are not on a level playing field with a lvl 49 because they do not have access to all their classes abilities and training points.

 

that one ability that level 10 has may do as much damage as a lvl 49, but the other abilities are not there. defensive, knockbacks, stuns, etc.

 

expertise is broke now in my opinion but i can see why mmos choose to use that stat.

 

also at max level there needs to be something to grind for because doing the same thing "just for fun" over and over becomes tedious and just, well, unfun.

 

10 to 49 you have incentive to keep grinding the warzones. for experience, credits, lvl 20 and lvl 40 orange gear.

 

at lvl 50 all we have is credits and gear.

[SlashDash]

Agree with op expertise/resilience is a horrible stat. All the people in defense of it probably never played a mmo without a pvp stat. Edited May 2, 2012 by SlashDash

[Vulgarr]

Agree with op expertise/resilience is a horrible stat. All the people in defense of it probably never played a mmo without a pvp stat.

i remember 1 hit kills from glass cannons.

 

i wouldnt call that "pvp".

[Overlord-]

Let's take a minute to do a thought experiment. Expertise both increases damage you do to other players and reduces damage you take from them while also buffing healing so that is (supposedly) roughly equivalent to PVE levels. So here's a funny idea.

 

DON'T SPLIT YOUR PLAYER BASE IN HALF.

 

Yeah, you heard me. If you remove expertise from PVP gear and replace it with relevant stats you end up with roughly the same stat spread on PVP and PVE gear, meaning gearing is more a choice about what set you want to wear rather than what set you HAVE to wear.

 

If you really need the PVPers to be mechanically better, give the PVP gear set bonuses. Noticeable, but not overwhelming. Because honestly, when a fully geared DPS can sit on a guy in PVP gear for half a minute and barely scratch him, you have a severe design flaw.

 

A geared, well-played character, whether in PVP or PVE gear should never be able to be ignored. Sadly this is the case right now.

 

You then tier PVP and PVE gear the same way they are now - meaning skill still leads to rewards. Oh look, now your entire player base can play both halves of the game rather than having one half gimped against the other half at all times.

 

It also means the PVPers can PVE. I honestly don't see the problem with this.

 

It doesn't help that when you introduce a stat that negates the skill of the other side you create a gap that will only grow with time. On an imbalanced server, that gap will never recover.

 

tl;dr

Expertise is a bad stat and has no actual purpose aside from splitting your player base. Discuss.

 

Finnius from aoc? Dont even try talking logic bro, Bioware doesn't listen not one bit.

[AKfourtyseven]

Expertise is the reason level 50 warzones are so much less fun than 10-49 warzones.

 

This always makes me laugh. 10-49 isnt balanced either. Some classes develop early and other much later. An even smaller selection dont fully become effective until being both lvl 50 and having a certain level of gear.

 

With the new recruit gear and the way you can buy BM i really have no time for anyone still complaining about expertise. Its so easy to hit 1000 and remove almost all of the disadvantage that stat may have presented.

 

I honestly think those who cant cut wz's now, just arent meant for PvP or they are playing a class/spec that is fundamentally broken &/or gimped. In that case its got nothing to do with expertise (example, i can still hit a sorc wearing WH items for 3.5-4k despite the fact i have no expertise advantage over them).

 

In short:

 

Even when equally geared, TTK is fast. The issue is not expertise, its other mechanics and as soon as you have 1100+ expertise this becomes very obvious.

Edited May 2, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[MouldyCrow]

What a well-reasoned and thought-out response, and such a sterling and rational reason for keeping a bad stat in the game. Truly, you are a poet.

 

Ok, enough of the sarcasm.

 

I was also being sarcastic... Jeez. The reason above *is* why PvP gear needs to be different. So skilled PvE guilds don't just come in and roflstomp everyone when ranked WZ are released.

 

Also so numpties with no skill and lots of time can't spend 4 weeks losing in Warzones to outgear people raiding KP and EV for Rakata gear for EC.

[kirorx]

nah our money is worth just as much as those that pve.

 

what carrot on the stick would they implement for pvp if they took out the expertise gear and relied on buffs?

 

because there needs to be something there to keep grinding from getting boring. something there to feel like you accomplish something.

 

your response is like pvpers asking for them to remove top tier raid gear so someone in green gear can do raids efficiently.

 

well what would be the purpose of doing a raid more than once (and seeing the content) if you were not trying to get gear?

 

I Hate That THIS is the way people think that MMOs must be.

It is really sad that so many people think this is acceptable.

 

You have to grind or you would not play? Then dont play, cause obviously its not Fun on its own.

 

<Not your fault, and I what i am saying is not meant to be anything negative toward you BTW> I just think this mentality is a terrible one and it was created by corporations to build addictions and steers away from playing because we enjoy the game.

[rjkishida]

How else can Bioware justify ANOTHER gear grind and all the time that it takes? They need you playing long enough for you to rationalize subscribing for another period. This is a purely self-serving bottom line stat.

[entropicdecay]

This always makes me laugh. 10-49 isnt balanced either. Some classes develop early and other much later.

 

Even when equally geared, TTK is fast. The issue is not expertise, its other mechanics and as soon as you have 1100+ expertise this becomes very obvious.

I didn't say 10-49 is balanced, I said it is more fun. You've even said it yourself, TTK is fast at 50. It's too fast.

 

With the way expertise scales at the moment the more gear people have the shorter the battles become. This is complicated by the fact that healing also scales with expertise which effectively means the more expertise people have the more powerful healers are getting.

 

You can see it in battles now where healers HP bars spike from 100% -> 20% -> 100% in rapid succession. This didn't happen in 10-49. You would wear down a healer and interrupt a few heals to get them down. At 50 if you let one big heal through it heals 40% of their HP bar and interrupting one heal can be the end of that healer.

 

10-49 was a lot more fun because battles were (ignoring healing) longer.

[AKfourtyseven]

I didn't say 10-49 is balanced, I said it is more fun. You've even said it yourself, TTK is fast at 50. It's too fast.

 

With the way expertise scales at the moment the more gear people have the shorter the battles become. This is complicated by the fact that healing also scales with expertise which effectively means the more expertise people have the more powerful healers are getting.

 

You can see it in battles now where healers HP bars spike from 100% -> 20% -> 100% in rapid succession. This didn't happen in 10-49. You would wear down a healer and interrupt a few heals to get them down. At 50 if you let one big heal through it heals 40% of their HP bar and interrupting one heal can be the end of that healer.

 

10-49 was a lot more fun because battles were (ignoring healing) longer.

 

Ah yes, that i can agree with. The TTK was much more stable 10-49, but again, i honestly dont see expertise as the primary reason for that but i guess we would need to test out wz's with expertise turned off to really know.

 

I think it may have more to do with the huge increase in stats in general we see once we become 50 and geared, rather than expertise (at least in isolation). My reasoning for this is because when you face players with equal expertise levels to yourself, it still doesnt operate like 10-49, despite the fact TTK does slow down a bit.

 

When geared at 50, things cant be as slow as 10-49 because seriously geared players have 30% crit, 75% surge and are stacking bonus damage to the high heavens. Expertise or not, thats going to affect PvP!

Edited May 2, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Dacce]

the issue I have, all that time I spent getting full champs in both vindicators and warleaders (currently only valor 55) is now wasted because the blue recruit gear is better for pvp.

[NuSeC]

This right here. The reason expertise even exists is to level the playing field between the hardcore raiders and those who don't run all the HM Ops every week. If there were no ”PvP” stat, then the raiders decked out in the latest tier would be facerolling everything in sight.

 

But if you don't want expertise in play anymore then that's fine. Just give the PvP'rs access to top tier (Campaign ATM) gear through WZs.

 

Bingo... If people want to QQ about EXP that's fine... but I want my tier equivalent. That's all, nothing more.

[Wynn]

Pve healer I got my 3rd heaelr to 50 got him the recruit gear tonight and was good to go. If the change went in with out the recruit gear it would be a lot of work for people to get both sets. But it took me all of 2mins to get pvp starter gear that also is better then my gear that I was wearing when I hit 50 tonight so in turn makes it easier to do flashpoints.

 

Fastest way for a new 50 to gear up at least for a healer was for me to buy recruit gear so didn't really split anything for me.

[Vulgarr]

I Hate That THIS is the way people think that MMOs must be.

It is really sad that so many people think this is acceptable.

 

You have to grind or you would not play? Then dont play, cause obviously its not Fun on its own.

 

<Not your fault, and I what i am saying is not meant to be anything negative toward you BTW> I just think this mentality is a terrible one and it was created by corporations to build addictions and steers away from playing because we enjoy the game.

yes but its the cold hard truth. ever since mmos were invented its always been about the grind in some way.

 

and i am one of the ones that enjoy the grind. otherwise i wouldnt be playing an mmo. (not this one anymore).

[BambulaGTS]

But it is simple:

 

More spent time in game > more money.

 

Grinding 2 sets > more time spent > more money.

 

But hey! You can't blame them. They are not charity society. They have financial goals.

[skidrows]

For the 100 time, if you want PVP and PVE in a game and dont want to force players to do 1 or the other Expertise is the best solution, i dont want it to be Tier 18 pvp-gear in 2years, i still want War Hero to be highst Tier on PVP-gear and to make that posible when there is T18 PVE gear is Expertise.

 

Ofc they cod have doone it the other way so PVE-gear had "lollipop-stat" with made so you had -xx % damage in PVP, + xx% damage reviced in pvp and so but that would still make the PVE players sad that want to be able to win in PVP without doing pvp only raid and ****.

Edited May 2, 2012 by skidrows

[kirorx]

But it is simple:

 

More spent time in game > more money.

 

Grinding 2 sets > more time spent > more money.

 

But hey! You can't blame them. They are not charity society. They have financial goals.

 

I agree with you, though i am pretty sure you meant (=) signs not (>)

[oldshatterhand]

Without expertise, PvP-ers would be forced to PvE in order to be competitive. With expertise, if you want to focus on PvP, you can only do PvP, if you want PvE you only do PvE. It is also easy to do both, PvE is like 1-2 nights/week anyway.

 

For example, my main with 24 days played (which is really not a lot considering I have been playing since early January) has rank 83 and 5 WH pieces, while also having full rakata + 3 black hole pieces. I only spend 1 evening/week to do operations, rest is for PvP.

Edited May 2, 2012 by oldshatterhand

[HoosierDuke]

Doesnt take long to get battlemaster gear anymore....

 

.qft.

[HoosierDuke]

... At 50 if you let one big heal through it heals 40% of their HP bar and interrupting one heal can be the end of that healer....

 

40% care to exaggerate much?

 

My 50 healer has 18K health, lets see

 

18000 * 0.40 = 7200

 

I GUARANTEE you I dont drop 7.2k heals, or even anything remotely close to that in a wz.

[Kanana]

If you remove expertise then PvE is mandatory to pvp. If you remove expertise you let the raiders steamroll the pvpers.

 

That's bad.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Kanana

[anasa]

Blind leading the blind around here.

 

This sums up this thread pretty well. A complete waste of read.

[anasa]

The WoW generation loves it.

 

Yea the WOW generation really misses the time when we raided 5 hours a day and then tested our new toys by 2 shotting people who couldn't raid. Those were the times...

 

...oh wait a second