To the biased Sents/Maras defending their OP class

[Sevvy]

This whole post and debate amazes me, the sentinel has been largely unchanged since launch.

 

I rolled a Sentinel in beta(when they were truly broken), I have played one since early access. I was the first level 50 JK on my server and the first Battlemaster of either faction. And that was when Sentinels and Marauders were supposedly the worst class. Before 1.2 I rarely lost a 1v1, and it wasn't because my class was OP. It was because I know how to play my class, and I LEARNED the abilities of other classes and changed my play to counter or mitigate their effects. So what has changed with 1.2? Very little with the Sentinel, my playstyle a has remained largely unaffected. The changes to expertise and healing made healers easier to handle. Do I still win most 1v1s? Yes, but more players have learned how to counter my abilities and 1v1 can go either way when facing a skilled pvper. I do burn down unskilled or under geared players much quicker with 1.2 since the changes to EXPERTISE.

 

Instead of calling for a nerf of a class learn how to best counter said class, and call for a fix to expertise or its removal entirely.

 

I can't be bothered to learn how to play while I'm afking on the fleet, picking my nose and waiting for my queues to pop.

[Scoobings]

This whole post and debate amazes me, the sentinel has been largely unchanged since launch.

 

I rolled a Sentinel in beta(when they were truly broken), I have played one since early access. I was the first level 50 JK on my server and the first Battlemaster of either faction. And that was when Sentinels and Marauders were supposedly the worst class. Before 1.2 I rarely lost a 1v1, and it wasn't because my class was OP. It was because I know how to play my class, and I LEARNED the abilities of other classes and changed my play to counter or mitigate their effects. So what has changed with 1.2? Very little with the Sentinel, my playstyle a has remained largely unaffected. The changes to expertise and healing made healers easier to handle. Do I still win most 1v1s? Yes, but more players have learned how to counter my abilities and 1v1 can go either way when facing a skilled pvper. I do burn down unskilled or under geared players much quicker with 1.2 since the changes to EXPERTISE.

 

Instead of calling for a nerf of a class learn how to best counter said class, and call for a fix to expertise or its removal entirely.

 

You are absolutely right. The TTK is the game changer, not changes to mauraders. As I said, the TTK changes need to be reverted, or the moves that grant immunity need to be looked at for rebalancing. Probably in the CD department.

 

We could undo the TTK changes and that would probably fix the problem. You're right about that. The thing is, BW isn't taking the game in that direction and we have to accept that as a given in this thread. Evidence of the trend is obvious: Snipers having their damage increased. The only way you can read that change is BW thought snipers weren'd doing enough damage, and their idea of TTK wasn't being met in sniper.

 

So, with that as a given, we have to consider ways to bring these moves back in to line (imo). It would be nice if TTK was adjusted a little somehow, but that's a different thread and if we turn this into a place where hypotheticals about how the maurader class would look with a longer TTK then the thread will cease to serve a practical purpose.

 

Not that that's stopped most of the threads or posters in this forum.

[Migrayn]

Without defensives Marauders will be the worst dps class in the game by far which is clearly what most baddies want.

 

Or they could rely on their team and have a healer keep them alive. Why shoud mauraders have more defences then tanks have. Why should mauraders have better defences then any other dps. You have a team for a reason get a healer friend.

 

Operatives have crap for defences yet they get nerfed every parch.

[Scoobings]

That's not true. Taunts, Guards, Force Speed, Vanish, Force Push, Knockbacks, Pulls, etc... are all defensive skills usually used in a defensive manner.

 

By your definition Force speed, Vanish, Push, Knockbacks, Pulls are all offensive cooldowns and defensive as they can be used in both ways. So can guard actually.

 

Force speed: Gap closer, to keep you in melee range and on the offensive

Vanish: Used to set up openers for stealth classes, and get yourself into an offensive position

Push: Can be used to push people into hazards, and resets the CD on charge, so it's part of an offensive set-up combo

Knockbacks: Can be used to knock people off cliffs and into hazards etc. Also, most do damage.

Pulls: Pull people into hazards/ off cliffs as well as a gap closer so you can continue your offensive

Guard: Guarding DPS players so they can extend into dangerous positions and continue their dps. In fact guard has almost the same effect as your shield which according to use is offensive.

 

You might have me on taunt. Can we accept the definition that the only defensive cooldown in the game is taunt? The rest are just "moves" with no categorization at all. Great, I feel a lot better now that we have much clearer definitions and categories

[MikaelNovasun]

Soon enough everyone will smarten up and roll marauder to enjoy the free EZ mode winning- so there will be no worries... that, or go play GW2. Either way- BW's mission is accomplished!

 

See I love this thought because the people doing so are the easiest to kill. I love coming across a fresh level 50 Marauder and wasting them on my Sentinel because they think Sentinel/Marauder is the new "I WIN". And most of my guild mates feel the same. 90% of the Sentinel and Marauders out there are just a minor inconvenience. It's the other 10% that have mastered the class that destroy most people

Edited April 27, 2012 by MikaelNovasun

[Apocalypse-]

I remember life before GBTF. Those of you that don't, which are the same that now cry for it to go, should think about why they added it in the first place.

 

Without GBTF, we're dead on sight, and we can't do anything about it. "But but but everyone else is too!" Not really. Snipers have cover, cover pulse, entrench, not to mention range. Operatives have double our CC ability in addition to true stealth, their DPS role is also that of a carry rather than a fighter like us (MOBA terms for those of you who know it). DPS juggs have guardian leap to get themselves clear in addition to push/leap. DPS Assassins again are carries (though a bit underpowered atm). DPS Sages get triple our CC, a instant cast bubble, sprint and that all so lovely range. DPS PTs get a hybrid range setup and can frontload a decent amount of damage. DPS Mercs? Well, they've been a waste of a raid slot since August, and aren't the measuring stick for anything to be compared to.

 

The entire design of Warriors/Knights requires them to stay in melee for prolonged periods. There's no frontloading damage and getting out like Sins/Ops. There's no safety of range like PTs or Sages, there's no knockbacks or jumping out like juggs.

 

The ENTIRE point of the Sent/Mara class is to force the fight into the 6th, 7th, 8th GCD, ane we've got to be in melee range, directly in front of the firing squad, to do it. Once the fight gets going, we've got some buildup, and we can do what we came to do. It's a wreaking-ball style, and the complaint is that once we're started we can't be readily stopped? Uhh... That's the point. GBTF/UR is a "last stand" mechanic. I'd gladly take a 100% healing reduction on it, but outright removing it is shortsighted and would require buffs elsewhere, ie letting our Focus bar start at full.

 

Now, a lot of the QQ stems from Ravage/Master Strike. The damage is fine, just shorten the cancel range by about 1m. Seriously, just walk away rather than eating it. Against combat/carnage, just use a knockback already.

 

People look at Sent/Mara and see carry. That's not how the class plays, nor how it is designed.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[iiell]

You might have me on taunt. Can we accept the definition that the only defensive cooldown in the game is taunt? The rest are just "moves" with no categorization at all. Great, I feel a lot better now that we have much clearer definitions and categories

 

ROFL! Well played sir, well played...

[HurricaneXXIV]

Or they could rely on their team and have a healer keep them alive. Why shoud mauraders have more defences then tanks have. Why should mauraders have better defences then any other dps. You have a team for a reason get a healer friend.

 

Operatives have crap for defences yet they get nerfed every parch.

 

Mauraders should have the best defensive talents out of dps, they are a squishy class in melee range. There really is only one CD that will stop a ranged person from killing a Sent in melee range and it only lasts for the length of a flash grenade. Take away their CDs and I will kill each of them in about 6-7 seconds.

 

Your vangaurd doesn't need cool downs like a sent because they naturally take less damage. If 20% damage stops you from attacking someone you really need to get better gear, change specs or do something drastic.

[Smashbrother]

GBTF needs to prevent all healing done to them when they pop it. That skill by itself is not so terrible because you can CC them for the duration or kite them, and then they die. Unfortunately, what happens is they pop that skill and then get healed to full by a healer. That is ********. When shadows vanish, all heals are reduced by 100% on them.

[fungihoujo]

See I love this thought because the people doing so are the easiest to kill. I love coming across a fresh level 50 Marauder and wasting them on my Sentinel because they think Sentinel/Marauder is the new "I WIN". And most of my guild mates feel the same. 90% of the Sentinel and Marauders out there are just a minor inconvenience. It's the other 10% that have mastered the class that destroy most people

 

I have yet to lose a 1v1 as a marauder- some classes I can tear to shreds like sorcs, any healer- some take a bit longer like juggs or sins but I still get them. Snipers might be a challenge in the open- but with the abundance of LoS you get at every single objective- it's very easy to get to one- though I'll agree that the marauders that think because they can charge any other class and EZ mode win, then try to do the same with a sniper will find snipers OP.... and since most sentinels I've met don't use their accuracy debuff I don't lose to them either.

 

A marauder is a harder class to play because it has many more useful abilities than any other class- but you have to know how to use most of them to be really good. On the other hand- several other classes can get close to the skill cap with a quarter the number of abilities... but many of the unused abilities aren't nearly as useful- and thus, while bads can be decent at those classes- any great player is still limited by few defensive CDs, low damage output, lack of variety mixed with high CDs that make your burst literally come in spurts- and other problems.

 

Any player who uses all their abilities in pvp will find that the marauder is hands down the best class in the game. But, players with slow reaction speed, tunnel visioners and clickers who use 5-6 abilities will find the marauder very hard to play.

 

 

Thing is- top rated teams don't revolve around all the terrible players- and in top rated teams, marauders will be the most sought class.

[Scoobings]

ROFL! Well played sir, well played...

 

You too, was fun! Gave me something to do at work

[unixbomber]

That is ********. When shadows vanish, all heals are reduced by 100% on them.

 

You can actually trait to receive healing in stealth; not that it's needed, as I have no issues stealthing, removing dots and waiting to receive heals or grabbing a health powerup. I suppose that is is ******** too, right?

[Kovaos]

You are absolutely right. The TTK is the game changer, not changes to mauraders.

 

If you added a conjunction (and) to this sentence it would be complete. It's a combination of the TTK AND the absence of negative adjustments to maras/sents.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Kovaos

[Scoobings]

I remember life before GBTF. Those of you that don't, which are the same that now cry for it to go, should think about why they added it in the first place.

 

Without GBTF, we're dead on sight, and we can't do anything about it. "But but but everyone else is too!" Not really. Snipers have cover, cover pulse, entrench, not to mention range. Operatives have double our CC ability in addition to true stealth, their DPS role is also that of a carry rather than a fighter like us (MOBA terms for those of you who know it). DPS juggs have guardian leap to get themselves clear in addition to push/leap. DPS Assassins again are carries (though a bit underpowered atm). DPS Sages get triple our CC, a instant cast bubble, sprint and that all so lovely range. DPS PTs get a hybrid range setup and can frontload a decent amount of damage. DPS Mercs? Well, they've been a waste of a raid slot since August, and aren't the measuring stick for anything to be compared to.

 

The entire design of Warriors/Knights requires them to stay in melee for prolonged periods. There's no frontloading damage and getting out like Sins/Ops. There's no safety of range like PTs or Sages, there's no knockbacks or jumping out like juggs.

 

The ENTIRE point of the Sent/Mara class is to force the fight into the 6th, 7th, 8th GCD, ane we've got to be in melee range, directly in front of the firing squad, to do it. Once the fight gets going, we've got some buildup, and we can do what we came to do. It's a wreaking-ball style, and the complaint is that once we're started we can't be readily stopped? Uhh... That's the point. GBTF/UR is a "last stand" mechanic. I'd gladly take a 100% healing reduction on it, but outright removing it is shortsighted and would require buffs elsewhere, ie letting our Focus bar start at full.

 

Now, a lot of the QQ stems from Ravage/Master Strike. The damage is fine, just shorten the cancel range by about 1m. Seriously, just walk away rather than eating it. Against combat/carnage, just use a knockback already.

 

People look at Sent/Mara and see carry. That's not how the class plays, nor how it is designed.

 

Carry is a MOBA term that implies weakness early game where your team has to "carry" you until you get gear, in which case you then "carry" your team by being OP in good gear.

 

The problem with accepting maras as a carry is that at no point do they have to work for their gear, they start the game with their gear You aren't doing yourself any favors by using that term for people who know what those are

 

Your point about GBF is well put, but I don't think anyone is arguing for the actual removal of GBF. Not to mention the fact, you still have your vanish type ability to get out of tight spots.

[Migrayn]

Mauraders should have the best defensive talents out of dps, they are a squishy class in melee range. There really is only one CD that will stop a ranged person from killing a Sent in melee range and it only lasts for the length of a flash grenade. Take away their CDs and I will kill each of them in about 6-7 seconds.

 

Your vangaurd doesn't need cool downs like a sent because they naturally take less damage. If 20% damage stops you from attacking someone you really need to get better gear, change specs or do something drastic.

 

So an operative is a melee fighter yet has no immunity defence. Flash grenade can be broken then we take damage. You still take 1% damage from all sources. Operatives are just as squishy as mauraders. Once out of stealth kperatives cant finish the fight az they have no defence and lack long duration damage. A maurader has damage immunity and can easly kill or finish people.off during that time.

[Darianth]

Negatory good buddy, just OP ones that practically give damage immunity. I know you guys like to claim that it's not immunity, and you are correct, however you clearly failed out of math class if you can't see that it's practically the same thing.

 

Let me lol at this a little more. There is something called significant figures. The 1% damage still taken is significant therefore you can't write it off as zero. You must have failed math and chemistry if you think otherwise.

[unixbomber]

So an operative is a melee fighter yet has no immunity defence. Flash grenade can be broken then we take damage. You still take 1% damage from all sources. Operatives are just as squishy as mauraders.

 

My operative is far from squishy and I kite sentinels easily, I also trait to heal. Funny how that works.

[Blloodbane]

I love how everyone that says the class is OP is the most amazing player ever (go to Korea and make a million dollars BTW).... and every OP Mara/Sent is just the worst player with WAY OVER THE TOP abilities....

 

 

As we Marines say...

 

Adapt and Overcome and get the sand out of your panties.

[HurricaneXXIV]

So an operative is a melee fighter yet has no immunity defence. Flash grenade can be broken then we take damage. You still take 1% damage from all sources. Operatives are just as squishy as mauraders. Once out of stealth kperatives cant finish the fight az they have no defence and lack long duration damage. A maurader has damage immunity and can easly kill or finish people.off during that time.

 

Your burst on your open got nerfed too hard. So your front loaded damage isn't enough to carry you till the end.That isn't a sent/maurader issue though. Your defense is suprise and stuns and makes you quite a bit more difficult to counter for a GS or Sniper.

[lijahrobinson]

I used to have trouble with Marauders...then i learned to play. And i play a Pyrotech Mercenary or a Juggernaut. I Don't have a problem with their abilties. 4 sec of 99% immunity isn't that huge of a deal; just save your stun/knockback/root/slow effect and wait it out. I think people dislike thinking while they play the game.

[EugeneYap]

without defensives marauders will be the worst dps class in the game by far which is clearly what most baddies want.

 

^this^

[EugeneYap]

Mara is lack of range root, knock-back, AOE stun and tons of other stun skills whereby every other class has them.

Or some lame rotation that takes away 80% health within 5 secs

 

Now mara can only DPS and mara is having a hard time doing that,

If DPS gets nerfs, what else mara can do...... I know! Mara can just be a target practice or be a running training dummy in pvp matches. In PVE mara are just stand there to watch the whole raid be captain hindsight and do nothing.

Edited April 27, 2012 by EugeneYap

[Xaearth]

I used to have trouble with Marauders...then i learned to play. And i play a Pyrotech Mercenary or a Juggernaut. I Don't have a problem with their abilties. 4 sec of 99% immunity isn't that huge of a deal; just save your stun/knockback/root/slow effect and wait it out. I think people dislike thinking while they play the game.

 

These are the same people that think Operative healer Surgical Probe spam at <30% health is god-mode.

Using your abilities to counter those of your enemy takes too much thought.

[Scoobings]

These are the same people that think Operative healer Surgical Probe spam at <30% health is god-mode.

Using your abilities to counter those of your enemy takes too much thought.

 

You'd be wrong.

[Darianth]

This entire thread really cracks me up. I mean all this qq about sents and marauders and the majority is flat out wrong. But I think it's funny that people don't complain more about operatives or snipers wither their 2 ccs and knock back and snare.