To the biased Sents/Maras defending their OP class

[Xaearth]

I don't know, perhaps you're the one having trouble grasping thet you can't basically KITE a good mara, unless you're a Gunslinger using cover, knock them back, rooting etc, but then, a good mara can still close the gap vs a good gunslinger using their emergency stealth. On my Operative I can use cover so they can't leap on me and interrupt me, but I can't KB or root, so ultimately, that's buying a few seconds but that's it.

 

...

 

Unsurprisingly, the same type of kids defended Operative burst, saying it's ok to burst down people during a 4s stun. And the same spoiled kids posting L2Ps in marauder threads, ain't that cute. If you can't see the trend BW is following, remove your rose-colored glasses and see the discrepancy in survivability. That is pretty simple maths, not rocket science. You say 'I'm a good player, maras are fine' then the apropriate reply would be 'Nope, you're just obviously terribad at math'

 

Of course, it's the same people that defended Operative burst (post 50's bracket and buff stacking)... because we actually know how to KITE.

 

And yes, you can kite a Marauder/Sentinel.

Either they charge first, giving you ~10s of time with their charge on CD, that's ~8s you can stay out of their range - MAKING YOU UNKILLABLE TO THE MARAUDER - or they don't, either way whenever charge isn't on cooldown, you just have to stay either further than 30m or between 10m and 4m and you're golden.

 

Edit: Of course, unless they're annihilation, but then that's your fault for getting owned by lolDoTs.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Xaearth

[Scoobings]

Do i really need to, I mean it's only been said a thousand times in the past couple weeks on the forums, but one more time...just for you. Using undying rage will take away 50% of my health...correct? So I will not use it until I'm severely low on health. As A annihilation marauder, I can only regain my health if my offensive CD is up or I already have a stack of 30 fury built up and you allow me to hit you. So simply, stun, root, knock back, disappear, choke, slow, blind, whirl wind, or any number of abundant things available in this game and keep more than 4m distance for 5 seconds. Once that time is up you can sneeze on me and I will fall over dead. Of course you might say that my resolve is filled or your own CC is on cooldown. Well guess what, my defensive CD's aren't always available to me either...that's just pvp. It is not always going to be ideal. If marauders were so godlike, then how come at the end of a match, they have the same number of deaths if not more as anyone else on their team. Just because you got mauled by one and didn't see him go down moments later, doesn't mean he doesn't go down.

 

How is that different from any other defensive CD in the game, or any other class? It's not. At all. Every class is effected severely by stuns. The fact that you are incapacitated by stuns is exactly the same for every class in this game, and every defensive cooldown.

 

Also, the fact that your CD is on a 90 second CD instead of a 2-5 minute CD means you will, in fact, be able to use it way more frequently than most classes can use their defensive CDs. Also, in sheer volume of defensive CDs, you have the advantage.

 

I can't believe how even against the slightest adjustments, like a 30 second increase in the CD to guarded by force, people throw a freaking hissy fit. In a game of 10 second TTKs, 5 seconds of immunity is a huge deal on a 90 second CD. It either needs a CD increase, a Static HP cost that if you fall below you can't use it, or rebalanced.

 

If it was me, I'd want the CD increase. The alternative would be to increase the TTK again, but BW doesn't seem to be heading in that direction with their changes. Actually, they're going the opposite.

[GoggleBoi]

 

GBTF should reduce outgoing damage by 99% as well and then it would be fine.

 

But hey, I'm sure you'll have some weird illogical straw man argument for that as well.

 

He might not. I do. What is the point of a DPS surviving an extra few seconds if they do no damage? Not that I am asking for this, but as a comparative point, what if when a Sorc/Sage popped a bubble, their healing was reduced by 30%? It defeats the purpose of the class/spec.

 

We, sentinels and marauders, are a damage class with a number of ways to help us keep damaging, to keep us in the fight smacking heads for longer. If you begin to take away our ability to stay in the fight, you begin to remove our ability to do our job; kill. Our cooldowns ease the burden on healers, as we are generally the ones in the dead centre of the furball.

 

In a 1v1 situation, GBTF is a powerful tool. It can swing the battle one way or the other. In a group situation, its use diminishes due to the increased likelihood of being CC'd, or focused. What I see in this thread, and many other FOTM 'NERF X' types, is people using a 1v1 situation to justify changes to a group situation. GBTF has not changed since launch. But TTK has. Sentinel damage as a whole has not changed. Certain specs did. Nerfing the class across the board because of a few related, but non-class/spec specific reasons, is short-sighted.

 

Issues of TTK need to be addressed and balanced before we start screaming for the removal of ANYONE'S abilities. There is more than one problem here, and it is not all on the Marauder or Sentinel.

[iiell]

How is that different from any other defensive CD in the game, or any other class? It's not. At all. Every class is effected severely by stuns. The fact that you are incapacitated by stuns is exactly the same for every class in this game, and every defensive cooldown.

 

Also, the fact that your CD is on a 90 second CD instead of a 2-5 minute CD means you will, in fact, be able to use it way more frequently than most classes can use their defensive CDs. Also, in sheer volume of defensive CDs, you have the advantage.

 

I can't believe how even against the slightest adjustments, like a 30 second increase in the CD to guarded by force, people throw a freaking hissy fit. In a game of 10 second TTKs, 5 seconds of immunity is a huge deal on a 90 second CD. It either needs a CD increase, a Static HP cost that if you fall below you can't use it, or rebalanced.

 

If it was me, I'd want the CD increase. The alternative would be to increase the TTK again, but BW doesn't seem to be heading in that direction with their changes. Actually, they're going the opposite.

 

I can't use GbtF more often than other classes can use stuns, knockbacks, etc... all are in a sense "defensive" cooldowns.

[Scoobings]

He might not. I do. What is the point of a DPS surviving an extra few seconds if they do no damage? Not that I am asking for this, but as a comparative point, what if when a Sorc/Sage popped a bubble, their healing was reduced by 30%? It defeats the purpose of the class/spec.

 

We, sentinels and marauders, are a damage class with a number of ways to help us keep damaging, to keep us in the fight smacking heads for longer. If you begin to take away our ability to stay in the fight, you begin to remove our ability to do our job; kill. Our cooldowns ease the burden on healers, as we are generally the ones in the dead centre of the furball.

 

In a 1v1 situation, GBTF is a powerful tool. It can swing the battle one way or the other. In a group situation, its use diminishes due to the increased likelihood of being CC'd, or focused. What I see in this thread, and many other FOTM 'NERF X' types, is people using a 1v1 situation to justify changes to a group situation. GBTF has not changed since launch. But TTK has. Sentinel damage as a whole has not changed. Certain specs did. Nerfing the class across the board because of a few related, but non-class/spec specific reasons, is short-sighted.

 

Issues of TTK need to be addressed and balanced before we start screaming for the removal of ANYONE'S abilities. There is more than one problem here, and it is not all on the Marauder or Sentinel.

 

Because in a team fight, they can still be healed to full and start all over again. Same idea as a retribution paladin, except their bubble lasted slightly longer but could be dispelled. Maybe not a 99% reduction, but a 50% reduction like in WoW I would think would be acceptable, but I think this game needs to do as many things to distance itself from WoW as possible and I think we can do better than that

[Derian]

I think we should try this first: make the effect REALLY VISUALLY OBVIOUS. I think a lot of people are just frustrated that they get a marauder down to 10% and then blow their cooldowns and resources doing no damage because they didn't realize the marauder popped Undying Rage.

 

As I understand it, it's currently a pale red/blue (depending on faction) oval bubble. What about a red/blue flash that becomes a red/blue crackling or shimmering bubble?

 

The massive reduction in damage isn't obvious?

[Xaearth]

Because in a team fight, they can still be healed to full and start all over again. Same idea as a retribution paladin, except their bubble lasted slightly longer but could be dispelled. Maybe not a 99% reduction, but a 50% reduction like in WoW I would think would be acceptable, but I think this game needs to do as many things to distance itself from WoW as possible and I think we can do better than that

 

In a team fight, why are you focusing the marauder instead of the healer?

[Scoobings]

I can't use GbtF more often than other classes can use stuns, knockbacks, etc... all are in a sense "defensive" cooldowns.

 

Defensive CDs are moves that serve no other function than to increase your survivability, not just moves that are used defensively. Otherwise, that term is so loose that almost any move could be considered a defensive CD. We'd have to start counting charges and heals etc, and then we lose the point of having the definition or category to begin with.

[Derian]

Yes you are......you talk about cds being situational......if using a cd stops you dying and you have it available, against 1 person, you dont use it and you die, what benefit do you gain from saving it for when you get jumped by more than 1 person.......

 

Why would I die? Aren't I OP?

[Faat]

Of course, it's the same people that defended Operative burst (post 50's bracket and buff stacking)... because we actually know how to KITE.

 

And yes, you can kite a Marauder/Sentinel.

Either they charge first, giving you ~10s of time with their charge on CD, that's ~8s you can stay out of their range - MAKING YOU UNKILLABLE TO THE MARAUDER - or they don't, either way whenever charge isn't on cooldown, you just have to stay either further than 30m or between 10m and 4m and you're golden.

 

Edit: Of course, unless they're annihilation, but then that's your fault for getting owned by lolDoTs.

 

I'll repeat, if you're getting kited by any class on your mara, you're the one bad out there. Saying things in CAPS or bolded dosen't make it more true. Also, lol, so you leap and don't root / snare right after ? Baddie mara is bad. how can i kite ? Should I use my CC breaker on the root / snare ? Say something that makes sense unless you want to be part of the 'I failed math in kindergarten' group.

[iiell]

Defensive CDs are moves that serve no other function than to increase your survivability, not just moves that are used defensively. Otherwise, that term is so loose that almost any move could be considered a defensive CD. We'd have to start counting charges and heals etc, and then we lose the point of having the definition or category to begin with.

 

So you are claiming a stun doesn't increase the "stunner's" survivability? And same with knockbacks? Interesting...my Scoundrel uses her Stun and Mez in a defensive manner all the time...

[Derian]

I think we understand your point. perhaps though, that you should just step away from the keyboard and take a breath of fresh air, reading your incessant 2-3 biased posts per page is really really painful to say the least.

 

I don't think Maras need a gigantic nerf, but in any actual discussions we could go on with arguments better than 'you ask for a nerf because you're bad' and help BW find a compromise between DPS and survivability for maras. When I play my BM vanguard I can kill most of them not breaking a sweat, but that's because I know how to play. if I fight a good player playing a mara, I'll lose, since even if you say 'kite within 10m range, spam ion pulse', it won't be dealing enough damage, and if I get the mara below 10%, he uses undying rage, then either pops stealth, pops a medpack, etc. Not that I think it's not right that an alpha class exists, but any sane MMO dev would try to fix any disparity between classes before they get their FOTM status.

 

Right now, the lower levels are flooding with mara / sents, and that's a symptom of bad class balance. Even if you call me bad I don't care, since I'm currently playing a BM vanguard assault specced, and was entirely correct with the nerf they introduced in 1.2, and still thinks HiB / railshot needs to be sligthly tweaked to tone down burst but improve damage sustainability (for example, cutting down 5-10% HiB damage, but improve the amount of ammo generated per procs). So stupid I can ROFLSTOMP nubs in 3 - 4 GCDs, I don't like that, and in every game I played, in GW1 particularly, I always tested a lot of stuff and helped the designers balance the FOTM to maintain a healthy metagame. You, are showing your immaturity with your constant condescendance, and you'll probably just leave for another game when both your beloved classes gets normalized like the others have been. I don't think, even if you're an extremely talented player, that you'd be taking down Maras with any of the other classes, even gunslingers (lol baddie maras lose to gunslingers now, lol gimme a break, get out of LoS, baddie)

 

Maras deal a balanced amount of DPS, but their survivability cooldowns / utility needs to be toned down to the DPS Ops level.

 

Ok, can we have stealth then?

[Scoobings]

In a team fight, why are you focusing the marauder instead of the healer?

 

Because, sometimes you switch targets to put stress on healers. Also, sometimes healers respawn and rejoin fights. I could probably think of a few other circumstances where mauraders might receive healing during GBF if you want me to. I'm pretty bored at work (in case my post volume wasn't an indicator enough of that )

[doctorfirepants]

How is that different from any other defensive CD in the game, or any other class? It's not. At all. Every class is effected severely by stuns. The fact that you are incapacitated by stuns is exactly the same for every class in this game, and every defensive cooldown.

 

Also, the fact that your CD is on a 90 second CD instead of a 2-5 minute CD means you will, in fact, be able to use it way more frequently than most classes can use their defensive CDs. Also, in sheer volume of defensive CDs, you have the advantage.

 

I can't believe how even against the slightest adjustments, like a 30 second increase in the CD to guarded by force, people throw a freaking hissy fit. In a game of 10 second TTKs, 5 seconds of immunity is a huge deal on a 90 second CD. It either needs a CD increase, a Static HP cost that if you fall below you can't use it, or rebalanced.

 

If it was me, I'd want the CD increase. The alternative would be to increase the TTK again, but BW doesn't seem to be heading in that direction with their changes. Actually, they're going the opposite.

 

The only person that's throwing a hissy fit is you though. I never said our defensive cooldown was affected by stuns any differently, nor did I say it is easier to counter than any other one. What other CD in the game eats half your health though? It is used in a very specific situation and by staying observant you can completely negate it. It is such a well known ability that you should already know its coming before it actually happens, and it is used as such a specific time that even if I'm successful in fending off the person I'm attacking, it will not allow me to take on the next person without direct healing from someone else. Point is, it's a strong ability that is easily countered by common sense.

 

TTK is to short in this game, I would much prefer a longer fight than a shorter one, but it works both ways. As I said, if a marauder uses undying rage and you don't counter it, yea your gonna go down most likely, but very very likely he will go down shortly after you as well.

[Scoobings]

So you are claiming a stun doesn't increase the "stunner's" survivability? And same with knockbacks? Interesting...my Scoundrel uses her Stun and Mez in a defensive manner all the time...

 

No I'm claiming moves used defensively aren't the same as defensive moves.

[Madnutter]

Why would I die? Aren't I OP?

 

Trying to be clever doesn't suit you.

[Scoobings]

The only person that's throwing a hissy fit is you though. I never said our defensive cooldown was affected by stuns any differently, nor did I say it is easier to counter than any other one. What other CD in the game eats half your health though? It is used in a very specific situation and by staying observant you can completely negate it. It is such a well known ability that you should already know its coming before it actually happens, and it is used as such a specific time that even if I'm successful in fending off the person I'm attacking, it will not allow me to take on the next person without direct healing from someone else. Point is, it's a strong ability that is easily countered by common sense.

 

TTK is to short in this game, I would much prefer a longer fight than a shorter one, but it works both ways. As I said, if a marauder uses undying rage and you don't counter it, yea your gonna go down most likely, but very very likely he will go down shortly after you as well.

 

I'm far from throwing a hissy fit. As I say, I don't really think mauraders are lewlerskatesbroken OP. I just think that with the reduced TTK to where it is, moves that previously were balanced by granting temporary immunity to things are now "too good" because the ratio of up time to the whole fight is a much bigger deal. I would make the same arguement for resilience which, imo, needs to be looked at in CD length.

 

It's countered by common sense, but so is every defensive move in the game. The difference, is GBF is so good that you are actually forcing your opponents hand on when he has to fire off his stun and you can counter that just as easily. Regardless, you are turning his powerful offensive tool into something he now has to use defensively which gives you the upper hand.

 

Especially, because of the way the health cost mechanic works, you don't usually end up spending 50% of your total health. You spend 50% of like 4-5k which is something miniscule. The cost of GBF is not as severe as people make it sound. If it was actually 50% of your health I'd say that the move not only wasn't OP, but it completely sucked. Not the case though.

[Madnutter]

I'm far from throwing a hissy fit. As I say, I don't really think mauraders are lewlerskatesbroken OP. I just think that with the reduced TTK to where it is, moves that previously were balanced by granting temporary immunity to things are now "too good" because the ratio of up time to the whole fight is a much bigger deal. I would make the same arguement for resilience which, imo, needs to be looked at in CD length.

 

It's countered by common sense, but so is every defensive move in the game. The difference, is GBF is so good that you are actually forcing your opponents hand on when he has to fire off his stun and you can counter that just as easily. Regardless, you are turning his powerful offensive tool into something he now has to use defensively which gives you the upper hand.

 

Especially, because of the way the health cost mechanic works, you don't usually end up spending 50% of your total health. You spend 50% of like 4-5k which is something miniscule. The cost of GBF is not as severe as people make it sound. If it was actually 50% of your health I'd say that the move not only wasn't OP, but it completely sucked. Not the case though.

 

Someone gets it.

[Faat]

Ok, can we have stealth then?

 

oooohhhhh Can you have the only think you don't currently have ohhhhhhhh ?

 

I see wut u did thar. Clever kindergarten kid.

[iiell]

No I'm claiming moves used defensively aren't the same as defensive moves.

 

But defensive moves used offensively are still defensive moves? LOL

 

In fact, Mara/Sents only have one true defensive move, Force Camo.

 

Rebuke, Saber Ward and GbtF are abilities that are used in an offensive manner, allowing them to be in the heat of the battle, doing the only thing they can do, DPS. "The best defense is a good offense."

 

Force Camo is the only skill used as both offensive and defensive.

 

Calling the Sent/Mara's skills defensive is like calling the Offensive Line on an American Football team, "Defense." They are there to "defend" the QB, but they are part of the offensive attack.

[MikaelNovasun]

This whole post and debate amazes me, the sentinel has been largely unchanged since launch.

 

I rolled a Sentinel in beta(when they were truly broken), I have played one since early access. I was the first level 50 JK on my server and the first Battlemaster of either faction. And that was when Sentinels and Marauders were supposedly the worst class. Before 1.2 I rarely lost a 1v1, and it wasn't because my class was OP. It was because I know how to play my class, and I LEARNED the abilities of other classes and changed my play to counter or mitigate their effects. So what has changed with 1.2? Very little with the Sentinel, my playstyle a has remained largely unaffected. The changes to expertise and healing made healers easier to handle. Do I still win most 1v1s? Yes, but more players have learned how to counter my abilities and 1v1 can go either way when facing a skilled pvper. I do burn down unskilled or under geared players much quicker with 1.2 since the changes to EXPERTISE.

 

Instead of calling for a nerf of a class learn how to best counter said class, and call for a fix to expertise or its removal entirely.

Edited April 27, 2012 by MikaelNovasun

[Scoobings]

But defensive moves used offensively are still defensive moves? LOL

 

In fact, Mara/Sents only have one true defensive move, Force Camo.

 

Rebuke, Saber Ward and GbtF are abilities that are used in an offensive manner, allowing them to be in the heat of the battle, doing the only thing they can do, DPS. "The best defense is a good offense."

 

Force Camo is the only skill used as both offensive and defensive.

 

Calling the Sent/Mara's skills defensive is like calling the Offensive Line on an American Football team, "Defense." They are there to "defend" the QB, but they are part of the offensive attack.

 

If that's the case then no classes have any defensive moves outside of stealth, yet at the same time all stuns are considered defensive because they can be used defensively. But wait, they can also be used offensively so they aren't defensive or offensive. Wait, if Self buffs can be used as offensive and defensive then they are neither. In fact, you can use stealth to get into an offensive position so force cloak is offensive too! *MIND BLOWN*!!!

 

Do you see why it's stupid to intentionally make terms so vague? There's no point to even having categories if you're going to make the qualitative definitions so intentionally vague that nothing fits it's stupid-*** definition. Accept the categories and stop being difficult. You can't just arbitrarily write off your own moves as "offensive" cooldowns and write in opponent moves as "defensive" cooldowns if you don't even hold true to your own definitions.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Scoobings

[fungihoujo]

Soon enough everyone will smarten up and roll marauder to enjoy the free EZ mode winning- so there will be no worries... that, or go play GW2. Either way- BW's mission is accomplished!

[iiell]

If that's the case then no classes have any defensive moves outside of stealth, yet at the same time all stuns are considered defensive because they can be used defensively. But wait, they can also be used offensively so they aren't defensive or offensive. Wait, if Self buffs can be used as offensive and defensive then they are neither. In fact, you can use stealth to get into an offensive position so force cloak is offensive too! *MIND BLOWN*!!!

 

Do you see why it's stupid to intentionally make terms so vague? There's no point to even having categories if you're going to make the qualitative definitions so intentionally vague that nothing fits it's stupid-*** definition. Accept the categories and stop being difficult. You can't just arbitrarily write off your own moves as "offensive" cooldowns and write in opponent moves as "defensive" cooldowns if you don't even hold true to your own definitions.

 

That's not true. Taunts, Guards, Force Speed, Vanish, Force Push, Knockbacks, Pulls, etc... are all defensive skills usually used in a defensive manner.

[skotish]

K so what's your main now?

 

Lol @ it's easy mode when I'm guarded. Welcome to SWTOR?

 

My alt is a Merc healer nice try we are OP face the facts the nerf will come :wea_03:

Edited April 27, 2012 by skotish